thumbdropper - Posted - 09/12/2014:  03:11:18

Hello out there,

I have made a few flesh hoops for 11" pots using 1/8" square steel rod stock.  Local hardware stores sell it in one foot increments, the longest available being three feet (a yard, 36"), which is just right for an 11" rim.  A one inch brazed scarfed joint gives a circumference of 35" and a diameter of 11.14", leaving a clearance of slightly over 1/16" for the hide all the way around, if the rim's diameter is really 11".

I  have three banjos with 12" rims, one with a fibreskin head that I want to replace with hide.  Interestingly, a meter (39.37") is just about right for a 12" rim, but I haven't found an economical local source for that length.  I am willing to buy a 4' rod if the price is reasonable, but with the typical shipping and handling charge it would cost too much.

There is a company in Kansas City named Metal by the Foot, Inc. (metalbythefoot.com/), that will cut their stock to the length a customer wants.  I used their online calculator to get the price for a meter of 1/8" square rod, and was amazed to find that it is a super reasonable $0.82!  Again the shipping cost is huge, but what if you can buy a few at a time, say a dozen?  It turns out that shipping a dozen is only about $0.50 more than shipping one; so the cost of a dozen meters @ 0.$82 each is $9.84, plus $13.97 UPS ground shipping charge adds up to $23.81, less than $2.00 each.

Unfortunately this category of merchandise is sold for in store pickup only, and I don't know anyone in Kansas City.

Is anyone out there in the Kansas City area interested in taking a few steel rods as payment for shipping a few more via UPS ground to the SF Bay area?  They wouldn't have to be the same length as those that I want.

Best Regards,

Paul

Bob Smakula - Posted - 09/12/2014:  04:33:42

Paul,

I sell 1/8" square brass blank flesh hoops for $15 and $4 for shipping. they are rolled and longer than you need so you can trim to fit. I don't use steel stock because of the rust.

A source for straight square brass stock is MSC industrial. They have warehouses all over the US, but I bet the shipping will be more than the metal

Bob Smakula

smakula.com

Edited by - Bob Smakula on 09/12/2014 04:34:36

Dan Knowles - Posted - 09/12/2014:  05:53:05

Paul,

Look up Metal Suppliers, Metal Recyclers in your local yellow pages. I sure you can buy square stock someplace in the SF bay aria. I just did a quick Google search for "metal suppiers / sunneyvale, ca​ " and found 7. These may just be home centers, I didn't follow the links. Good luck!

KidfromDeliverance - Posted - 09/12/2014:  09:46:28

'Flesh Hoops for Hide Heads' - there's a GREAT cd title for someone out there!  Come and get it, guys!

Patrick

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/12/2014:  13:42:27

Bob, thanks for the information. 

I have zinc plated one of my 11" hoops (yet another DIY topic) to avoid the rust problem. I don't know how well that will work; I haven't used it yet.

I like the idea of using brass for the reason you state, but I want my hoops to be solid all the way around.  I'm concerned that I wouldn't be able to make a brazed joint because the base metal would melt at brazing temperature, and I don't think a soldered joint would be strong enough. 

I recently had to mount a new hide using an open ended 12" hoop and found the process frustrating.  I will use brass if I can learn how to join the hoop's ends permanently and safely.

I just checked MSC Industrial; they have a site in San Jose, shopping trip distance.  Their 1/8"x18"x72" brass bar is $7.34.

Next question: does anyone know a safe way permanently to join the ends of a brass hoop? 

Thanks again,

Paul

quote:

---

Originally posted by SFI

Paul,

 

I sell 1/8" square brass blank flesh hoops for $15 and $4 for shipping. they are rolled and longer than you need so you can trim to fit. I don't use steel stock because of the rust.

A source for straight square brass stock is MSC industrial. They have warehouses all over the US, but I bet the shipping will be more than the metal

Bob Smakula

smakula.com

---

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/12/2014:  14:01:56

Dan,

Thanks for the suggestion.  In addition to MSC Industrial mentioned by Bob Smakula there is Alan Steel & Supply in Redwood City as a possible source.  They don't have much web presence.  There are some other very heavy industrial suppliers in the area who might not want to bother with a hobbyist like me.

Paul

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Knowles

Paul,

Look up Metal Suppliers, Metal Recyclers in your local yellow pages. I sure you can buy square stock someplace in the SF bay aria. I just did a quick Google search for "metal suppiers / sunneyvale, ca​ " and found 7. These may just be home centers, I didn't follow the links. Good luck!

---

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/12/2014:  14:05:45

If you REALLY want to be noticed, not necessarily in a good way, you might try "Flesh Hoops for Skinheads!"

Paul

quote:

---

Originally posted by KidfromDeliverance

'Flesh Hoops for Hide Heads' - there's a GREAT cd title for someone out there!  Come and get it, guys!

Patrick

---

JOBOBEDA - Posted - 09/12/2014:  15:01:38

Hi Paul, We met at the Ocean View jam, month before last.

For brass hoop attachment, I have used silver solder and had no problems.

Silver Solder can be found at any full service welding supply.

It can be purchased in different heat ranges and  strength ratings.

I have repaired brass tail pieces which take a lot of pressure from the strings

using these hard solders.  I have used brass 1/8 inch round stock and silver soldered it for drum heads

out of goat skin with great success also.

A normal burnzamatic (sp) Propane torch will work if you use a MAPP Gas canister.

Commercial preformed mylar heads available today, use square aluminum and are epoxy joined.

Most of the flesh hoops I have encountered were not joined together and worked fine

if you have 4 hands while installing the slippery wet skin !

Does MSC have stock for pickup at the San Jose location? 

Granger also has a location in San Jose and most  materials can be picked up there

but I don't deal with them.  I'm planning an order with MSC next month so, I'm curious

about purchasing from the San Jose location. 

John Bobeda

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/12/2014:  20:54:53

John, I'm glad to hear from you and find someone so near by who is already doing what I want to do. I was wondering whether silver solder would work; so I'm really pleased to know of your success with it. There is a welding supply shop even closer to me than MSC.

I haven't called or visited MSC yet but on their web page mscdirect.com/corporate/locati...alifornia the San Jose store is represented as having Showroom/Will Call. I infer from this that you will be able to collect your purchases at the store, and you might have to wait for it to be delivered there. Most of their California stores don't have this.

Best Regards,
Paul

Fathand - Posted - 09/13/2014:  07:44:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by thumbdropper

I have zinc plated one of my 11" hoops (yet another DIY topic) to avoid the rust problem. I don't know how well that will work; I haven't used it yet.

I like the idea of using brass for the reason you state, but I want my hoops to be solid all the way around.  I'm concerned that I wouldn't be able to make a brazed joint because the base metal would melt at brazing temperature, and I don't think a soldered joint would be strong enough. 

quote:

---

What about painting the steel with Rustoleum or similar, should keep the rust away. I have also removed 90 year old bare steel flesh hoops and there is not rust, likely because little air can get at the hoop.

So far all the old flesh hoops I have seen are not joined at the end, the hide holds them in place so if you insist on joining the end, solder should be plenty strong enough.

Crusty - Posted - 09/13/2014:  08:04:55

If you've ever tried rasslin' a hide head on, you'll appreciate a flesh hoop that springs apart and fits over the tone ring without having to use both hands and one foot to get it started.

Someone here, don't remember who, posted about using a cutoff hoop from a Remo head as a flesh hoop and it worked well plus it's rust free.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 09/13/2014:  08:36:53

Almost all of the vintage hoops I have used (to install a new head) have been iron wire...and not terribly rusty. I think my first Stewart had its original flesh hoop and it took just a bit of scrubbing with some steel wool to get the chunky bits of skin off. It had (still has) a keyed lap joint that locks itself together and it was bound with very thin wire and soldered. I cleaned it up, snapped the ends together and wound it with some very fine wire...no solder though. Still going strong...since 1987.

There are many ways to skin that banjo. I've used standard "music wire" on a couple of banjos as well as some square brass, etc. 8ga copper ground wire works really well and is very easy to bend, etc. These days, I simply use scotch tape to hold the ends together. No worries.

Most of the original hoops I've encountered show signs of solder on the ends. Once the head is on, whether the ends are joined or not is of no consequence.

farfaraway - Posted - 09/13/2014:  10:28:16

See if your hardware sells hollow square tubes. You can get a 5/16 and use it as a sleeve or coupling. It will slide right over the 1/4 square. No need for solder and it will not fail. Also you can slide it in or out to the perfect length.

Edited by - farfaraway on 09/13/2014 10:28:50

Bufo Bill - Posted - 09/13/2014:  13:59:57

Just as an aside, I once used a one inch length of silicon aquarium airline to link the two ends of the flesh hoop. This stuff shrinks over time so that it grips onto an output nozzle on an air pump . . . Or holds a flesh hoop tight. I realise this marks me out as an arch- "bodger" of the banjo world, but I put it out there because of all those 1900's banjos that get pulled out of attic spaces and found to have been repaired with whatever comes to hand, (that's the definition of bodging, for anyone who has never come across the phrase before).
On a more sane note I believe that an article on the Brooks Masten Banjos website says that the maker prefers square section flesh hoops as they bite the skin and do not pull out the tucked in hide under the tension hoop. I have never had problems with my one banjo with a round section hoop, but that's not a lot of experience with them, so I will defer to an excellent maker like BMB on this one.
All the best from Bill. :D

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/13/2014:  17:47:31

Thanks to all who commented on this topic. I didn't state earlier that my experience with an open ended hoop was the MOST frustrating of all my hide mounting experiences to date. I couldn't avoid it though, because the pot was a copy of a ca. 1860 instrument, and nothing was as near to circular as anything made in the last 100 years. I tried taping the hoop ends together, and that attempt failed. I had to remove the skin and re-wet it, untape the hoop, and start over, expecting to fail again.

I did find however that as I proceeded to pull the skin tight the hoop's ends got closer together, until by the end of the process the ends nearly touched. Ultimately I succeeded, maintaining my perfect record in hide head mounting. I would do it the same way again if facing similar circumstances.

Marc Smith wrote "Once the head is on, whether the ends are joined or not is of no consequence." That is certainly true as far as the function of the flesh hoop is concerned, but I just have aesthetic comfort in knowing that the hoop has that extra structural integrity. For the same reason I would prefer not to use a hoop salvaged from a factory mounted head. I guess I must admit that I am, as banjo players are alleged to be, picky picky.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 09/14/2014:  10:40:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by thumbdropper

Marc Smith wrote "Once the head is on, whether the ends are joined or not is of no consequence." That is certainly true as far as the function of the flesh hoop is concerned, but I just have aesthetic comfort in knowing that the hoop has that extra structural integrity. For the same reason I would prefer not to use a hoop salvaged from a factory mounted head. I guess I must admit that I am, as banjo players are alleged to be, picky picky.

---

LOL. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I always say, "whatever works!" I would never use a salvaged hoop...for the same reason. Besides, making your own is fun...whether you tape, solder, weld, braze or just let it hang out there.

 

thumbdropper - Posted - 09/14/2014:  18:32:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

---

Originally posted by thumbdropper

Marc Smith wrote "Once the head is on, whether the ends are joined or not is of no consequence." That is certainly true as far as the function of the flesh hoop is concerned, but I just have aesthetic comfort in knowing that the hoop has that extra structural integrity. For the same reason I would prefer not to use a hoop salvaged from a factory mounted head. I guess I must admit that I am, as banjo players are alleged to be, picky picky.

---

LOL. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

I always say, "whatever works!" I would never use a salvaged hoop...for the same reason. Besides, making your own is fun...whether you tape, solder, weld, braze or just let it hang out there.

 

---

Marc,

I glad that you too find satisfaction in the process, as well as the result. 

Since my post yesterday I've had to change my plan to replace the 12" fibreskin next.  My thumb had worn through An 11" hide that I've been playing for about 20 years, in two places.  I've removed and re-installed the tension hoop twice to rotate the hide and let my thumb wear out a new spot.  After breaking a string for the first time at a gig last night I decided that I was pushing my luck; so I have just mounted a nice new hide on that 11" pot.  I used the flesh hoop that I made and zinc plated, mentioned earlier.  Until this new hide wears out I won't know how effective the zinc plating has been, but I will say that this replacement was easiest ever, by far, just about two weeks following my most frustrating effort with the 12" open ended hoop.  I first tried a brass hoop that I bought, but rejected it in favor of my home made zinc plated hoop because the brass hoop was too tight.

This new hide is very costly, just over $100 after shipping cost.  It is very smooth and consistent in thickness, intended for use on drums.  It came from Ireland and is branded (with ink, not burned!) Kalfo.  Is was so easy to work with that for the first time I didn't have to use pliers.  Someone mentioned this brand elsewhere in this group I think, asking whether a Kalfo hide is worth its price.  I will post a reply to that question, if I find it again.  If the Kalfo lasts as long as the hide it replaces I will say it's definitely worth its price; check back in 20 years.

thumbdropper - Posted - 10/10/2014:  14:39:23

This is an update on the DIY flesh hoop topic. At four weeks minus two days after mounting that Kalfo hide on my home made 11" zinc plated flesh hoop I can report complete satisfaction both with my hoop and the Kalfo hide from Ireland. Everyone I've talked too has been pleased with both the appearance and the sound of the new hide.

When I mentioned before how easily the mounting was done, without even the use of pliers, I didn't mention that the hide was an 18" circle. The large diameter made it easy to grab the overhanging skin and pull it tight. Note the generous amount of overhanging skin in this picture of the hide freshly mounted on the pot of Bart Reiter #904 before re-attaching the neck:

banjohangout.org/photo/183545

A closeup of the Kalfo logo:

banjohangout.org/photo/183546

Dogfeathers - Posted - 10/11/2014:  08:19:35

Paul,

Next time you need some materials, just drive north up hwy 101 a few miles and take the east exit of Whipple ave in Redwood City.  As soon as you get off the exit , the road will curve to the right and they will be in the left. A company there called Alan Steel and Supply will have everything you need in any size and quantity. They are not known for cheap prices but you save shipping fees and chasing all over town looking for what you want. Drive In, get what you want, drive out......your done. They also have an Interesting junk yard to paw through, lots of recycled contraptions and interesting mechanical do dads.

    Dogfeathers

blm10jn - Posted - 10/11/2014:  18:04:51

Online Metals and Speedy Metals both sell 1/8 sq brass by the foot at a reasonable price.

thumbdropper - Posted - 10/15/2014:  01:04:11

Dogfeathers, I did find Alan Steel & Supply on the web, but their website gave so little information that I doubted that a visit to their RC site would be productive. Now, with information from someone who has actually been there I am encouraged to make the trip.

J. Bloom, I visited the websites of Online Metals and Speedy Metals, and as you say the prices are rather reasonable. However, just as with Metal by the Foot, shipping costs are the killer.

Thanks to everyone who commented. I now have a couple of ideas about how to proceed.

Paul

Bart Veerman - Posted - 10/15/2014:  08:17:00

I use coat hangers, they're 1/8" diameter, and shape them by hand as they bend easily. To join the ends I use a piece of the brass fuel line tubing they use in model airplanes (they come in several diameters so pick one that fits kinda snug) and solder the ends into it. I put the solder joined section at the heel side so it won't show.

Alternatively you can use the stretch hoop from a 5 Star/Ludwig head, they're square stock stainless steel and are already properly round for a perfectly sized hoop.

Leslie R - Posted - 10/15/2014:  20:49:29

You can braze or braze weld brass or steel.  You wouldn't need a lot of high tech gizmos.  You will need a torch, the appropriate filler rod, and flux.  I've never done it with a flesh hoop, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.  It's relatively easy.  I'm sure there's youtube videos that could walk you through the process.

Dogfeathers - Posted - 10/19/2014:  09:10:11

Years ago when I had to replace a head on an old Cammeyer banjo, the flesh hoop was a round steel rod that had both ends had beveled faces that matched up when placed around the pot. They were held together for assembly by just wrapping very fine thread many times around the junction. Once installed, the hide and tension held it all together. Obviously done many years ago without soldering or brazing and seemed to work just fine. The steel only had a little bit of oxidation on it and did not show through on the head at all and it had been mounted for many many years that way.

      Dogfeathers

​Thumbdropper, I was at Alan Steel about a month ago and noted that they are closed on weekends so ya gotta go during the week if you ever get up there. Next time I go I will take a look for the materials you need to see if it is carried in stock.....and I bet they do. I used to manage a machine shop just up the road and when we needed some hot job done right now and did not have the material on hand, Alan Steel had it.

Dave Stacey - Posted - 10/20/2014:  14:50:54

If I need to reuse a flesh wire that might rust I brush on a coat of French Polish.