jay_banjoman - Posted - 07/10/2014:  17:00:30

A few weeks ago I started a thread about a "Western King" banjo for sale in my area.  The thread is here: banjohangout.org/topic/286925/#3616615  In that thread the theory was that this is an old Stewart MacDonald kit banjo, but I did not have very good pictures.  I now have better pictures from the seller.

I am meeting up with the seller on Friday to hopefully buy this banjo.  My questions are:

Is this an old Stewart MacDonald kit banjo?

Any guesses as to the age of this banjo?

This appears to have the cast aluminum 1-piece integral arch-top tone chamber.  If this is old ODE stock, would there be some ODE trademark on it?  If so, where would I look?

What type of wood was included in these kits for the neck and resonator?

There appear to be two darker dots on the back of the tuning peg head below the string 2 and 3 pegs.  Any idea what these might be?

Any idea why there is a mirror inside the resonator?

Is there an adjustable truss rod in the neck?  The only StewMac banjo construction manuals I could find online make it look like the rod is glued in place in the neck channel under the fretboard, but did not look to be adjustable.

Thanks,

Jay

RioStat - Posted - 07/10/2014:  17:12:37

From those 2 photos, it appears to be a StewMac based banjo. Flange cut-outs seem to be StewMac "ovals".

Neck will be either maple or mahogany. Since the resonator appears to be mahogany, I imagine the neck is too.

Integral archtop aluminum pot / rim.....does it matter if it is old ODE equipment? StewMac or ODE, both are good.

If the 2 spots on the back of the headstock are screws, then the headstock has been broken and (poorly) repaired.

Forget the mirror, yank it out of there after you buy the banjo. People have stuck all kinds of crap inside resonators over the years, trying to get some "certain" sound.

As myself and several others stated in the previous thread, if this thing is solid, unbroken, etc...throw the guy a buck and a quarter, and take that banjo home, snickering under your breath....

We expect a full report tomorrow, including more photos (after you buy it and get it home) 

Edited by - RioStat on 07/10/2014 17:17:11

Nick Danger - Posted - 07/10/2014:  17:31:49

Instead of the Stew-Mac kit banjo mentioned in an earlier thread, I'm more inclined to believe it's an old Saga kit from the same time period (mid-to-late-70s). The neck and resonator of the Saga kits were made of Philippine (Luan?) mahogany. I believe the Stew-Mac kits featured real Honduras mahogany but I could be mistaken.

I looked HARD at the photo provided in the earlier thread and the flange appears to be made up of individual plates (one per hook) which was typical to the Saga kit. When each plate was assembled around the rim the flange holes resemble that of a Gibson-style flange. The Stew-Mac flange plate, on the other hand, was made up of four (4) segments of polished aluminum; the flange holes were simple oblong holes that presented a sleeker image than what Saga was producing. Also, I believe Saga DID have a working truss rod in the neck which was accessible at the nut; the Stew-Mac neck's adjustable truss rod was accessible where the heel mated to the rim (the neck had to be removed to access the truss rod nut).

No idea what the darker dots on the back of the peghead are... maybe they were filled-in holes where cam tuners used to be(?).

The mirror in the resonator trick was something common to tenor and plectrum players. The mirror served the two-fold purpose to show off some flashiness when performing on stage as well as projecting the sound forward a bit more acutely than what a plain resonator back could provide. The down side of the mirror is that much of the time the sound was too harsh for five-string playing.

Hope this helps.

RioStat - Posted - 07/10/2014:  18:52:51

StewMac......bet my first born on it.

Look down by the tailpiece on the first photo...that is NOT individual flange plates.

Check out this old thread. Photo from StewMac catalog...banjo on far right.

banjohangout.org/archive/243367

Edited by - RioStat on 07/10/2014 18:58:29

Nick Danger - Posted - 07/10/2014:  19:01:52

UPDATE:



Jay, after going to your BHO homepage and looking at the larger photos of this banjo, I can say with reasonable certainty that it IS a Saga kit banjo from the 1970s (or a bit later, maybe).



The two dark dots on the back of the peghead are more than likely from the original tuners that came with the banjo. The dots were screw holes that held the tuner housings in place and kept them from rotating with string pressure was applied to the tuner barrels.



BTW, these aluminum archtop rims make fine sounding banjos. ODE pioneered these type rims in the early-1960s; a true ODE aluminum rim will have the ODE trademark and a reference to Boulder, Colorado cast into the rim interior. This rim is a knock-off of the ODE rim and does not have any markings.



It looks like a sound banjo (no pun intended) and, IMHO, is more than worth the $125 asking price. Good luck!

Edited by - Nick Danger on 07/10/2014 19:09:34

Nick Danger - Posted - 07/10/2014:  19:04:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by RioStat

StewMac......bet my first born on it.

Look down by the tailpiece on the first photo...that is NOT individual flange plates.

Check out this old thread. Photo from StewMac catalog...banjo on far right.

banjohangout.org/archive/243367

---

Nah... it's a Saga rim.  Look at the individual flange plates, a Saga dead giveaway.

Nick Danger - Posted - 07/10/2014:  19:19:40

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Danger

quote

:

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Originally posted by RioStat

StewMac......bet my first born on it.

Look down by the tailpiece on the first photo...that is NOT individual flange plates.

Check out this old thread. Photo from StewMac catalog...banjo on far right.

banjohangout.org/archive/243367

---

Nah... it's a Saga rim.  Look at the individual flange plates, a Saga dead giveaway.

---

Additionally, check out the truss rod cover at the base of the peghead (above the nut).  Another Saga kit banjo giveaway.  Stew-Mac kit banjos had their truss rods accessed where the neck mated with the rim.

The Yorba Linda, California music store I taught banjo at in the mid-1970s sold these kit banjos.  I got pretty familiar with them when I hocked them to my students.  They were pretty good banjos for the price. 

RioStat - Posted - 07/10/2014:  20:03:49

Mr. Danger, sir, I stand corrected. 

How in the h*** you could tell those were individual flange plates from the first photos from the original thread, I'll never know!

It is sure obvious from the photos on Jay's homepage, what this banjo really is! Good work, Nick!

We are both right about one thing, though........can't be beat for $125.00 !

jay_banjoman - Posted - 07/10/2014:  21:21:30

Nick and Scott,

Thank you for your help in identifying this banjo.  I look forward to getting it tomorrow if all checks out ok.  I will update this thread once I have it.  It will be fun to see how it turns out once it is cleaned up, restrung and given a good setup.

How do I know if the bridge needs to be replaced?  I do not have any spare bridges at this point in my banjo career.

Cheers,

Jay

RioStat - Posted - 07/11/2014:  03:41:35

quote:

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Originally posted by jay_banjoman

Nick and Scott,

Thank you for your help in identifying this banjo.  I look forward to getting it tomorrow if all checks out ok.  I will update this thread once I have it.  It will be fun to see how it turns out once it is cleaned up, restrung and given a good setup.

How do I know if the bridge needs to be replaced?  I do not have any spare bridges at this point in my banjo career.

Cheers,

Jay

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Jay, From the photo, the bridge looks like a "Richlieu" or old Grover, maple with ebony cap and individual bone inserts for each string. Popular "back in the day" but I never cared for them.

PM me, I have a few bridges laying around not earning their keep, I'll send you a couple to try out.

Edited by - RioStat on 07/11/2014 03:42:30

jay_banjoman - Posted - 07/11/2014:  13:36:31

I just meet with the seller and bought the thing.  This will definitely be a project to get it set up correctly.  He picked it up about a year ago at an estate sale thinking he would learn to play it.  The old bridge is a Grover, badly sinking.  The banjo head (Remo Weather King, top frosted) looks like it might still be usable, but is very loose and the original owner had the bridge offset toward the 5th string so he could play it as a 4 string banjo with the 4 strings centered on the neck.

The neck shape looks ok, no twisting, but it is not attached to the pot straight, slightly skewed.  Should be a simple fix.

I did not have any tools with me, so it was somewhat hard to correctly play it (not that I could correctly play a well set up banjo at this point in my learning!).  The 4 strings were only about one half step flat, so the Five Star planetary tuners seem to hold pretty well.  The seller never tuned it since buying it over a year ago.  These were not the original tuners, I can see the old holes (filled) where the old tuner retaining screws went.

With the head so loose, and the bridge sinking, I was not able to fret cleanly up the neck, down the neck was fine.  Tightening the head, and a new bridge should fix that problem.  Then I can see how the action is.  The neck relief looked ok by fretting at 1 and 22.  The frets themselves felt and looked pretty good.

The old finish is not in great shape in some areas.  I am not sure what, if anything, I will do about that.  How would I go about refinishing the wooden parts?  There are a few rough spots on the back of the neck.  Did the wood need to be shaped and sanded on these old Saga kit banjos?

The banjo is heavier that I would have suspected with an aluminum rim.  I will work on it this weekend and see what I can do to make it playable.  More pictures will be coming in time as this project advances.

Cheers,

Jay

grm405 - Posted - 07/11/2014:  15:02:52

"but it is not attached to the pot straight, slightly skewed"

5-string banjo necks are not attached straight to the pot.  They are skewed about 0.5 degrees so that the third string runs down the center of the neck after the 5th fret and in a straight line to the tailpiece mount.  If they are mounted "straight" the bridge will pull off to one side of the neck, taking the strings with it.  This confusion is all caused by the asymmetrical nature of the 5 string neck.

Just make sure that the 3rd string is centered and the bridge does not have to be pushed to one side to keep the strings on the neck.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Gerry

Edited by - grm405 on 07/11/2014 15:04:45

jay_banjoman - Posted - 07/11/2014:  16:18:30

Hi Gerry,

It is broke.  I do not have a picture of this yet, but what I mean is the string 5 side of the neck is higher than the string 1 side of the neck where the neck connects to the pot, causing almost no fret clearance on 5 and alot on 1.  From the peg head perspective, the next needs to be rotated slightly clockwise relative to the pot.

Also, the bridge is currently pushed way over to the string 5 side, since there is no 5th string.  The second-back owner had it strung as a 4 string banjo, with strings 1 and 4 equal distance from the edge of the high fret part of the neck.  You can see this in this picture.  Note how string 2 is straight from tailpiece to bridge to neck.  Check out the gnarly bend on 4!

Jay

jay_banjoman - Posted - 07/14/2014:  13:36:31

I was able to spend some time with my new (old) Saga kit banjo this past weekend.  After doing a bunch of online research on banjo setup, I believe the nut slotting depth and the neck relief are good.  I needed to tighten up the head a lot!  I bought a drum dial on eBay that should be here by Wednesday, so I will be able to make sure the head is evenly tensioned.  I set the head tightness using the Steve Davis ruler and coin trick (I used a nickel since this is an archtop).

After getting the head nice and tight, I was disappointed with the high string action.  The neck is attached to the pot with two bolts, no coordinator rods.  Both nuts were tight and the neck was touching the aluminum pot at both the top tension hoop (small contact area) and bottom (larger contact area).  I eventually figured out that by loosening the nut near the head and tightening the second nut I could get the neck to slope down from pot to peg head, thereby fixing the action.  Now the head only contact the pot below the tension hoop.

The old 5/8" maple/ebony/bone Grover bridge on it is dead.  It is severely sagging in the middle, even with the tightened head.  The banjo came with no 5th string attached, and old string bits in the Five Star Planet 5th tuner housing.  It also came with some unused strings, but they are old stock, so not in great condition.  I cleaned out the 5th tuner and put on the missing 5th string and tuned it up.  I am able to play the banjo comfortably and I am getting good tone.  The 3rd string does not play as easily and cleanly as I would like, due to the low action from the bridge sagging.  A new bridge is needed.  After I have a new bridge I will restring it with fresh strings.

Thank you for all who provided input on this banjo.  I will start a new thread in the future once/if  I start the process of refinishing the wooden parts.

Jay

REarl - Posted - 07/14/2014:  18:00:41

There are a lot of good bridges out there. But for the money you might try one of the "roasted maple" bridges from First Quality Music. At $10 plus shipping they are pretty hard to beat.

MrNatch3L - Posted - 07/14/2014:  23:35:37

Just  wanted to add that I have a StewMac version of this pot and it has the same flanges. I know what it is because a good friend was the original owner and I got all the paper that came from StewMac. Sales slip was dated 1976. It has a very different neck with no truss rod, so the ID as a Saga kit is probably right- I don't know the Sagas.

My experience with the StewMac is that I could never get it sounding very good in standard bluegrass G tuning. After owning it for many years I happened to tune it down to E to learn some John Hartford, and suddenly that thing woke up. I changed the head to a Ren, which made it better still. Then Mike Smith made me a bridge the put the icing on the cake. Last thing was a better tailpiece. Tried a Presto I had on hand, and finally ended up with one of Mike Rowe's Oettinger style tailpieces I got when he was still making them. I keep The Mutt tuned in E with pretty heavy medium strings and it's a lovely sounding instrument. Try it down in E and see what you think.