pjxndvm - Posted - 04/09/2014:  15:46:35

I bought a nice top grade calfskin head from Bob Smakula to put on my 11" pot banjo. Bob advised to have someone who has experience to put them on. No problem. I took it to Elderly today, and the repairman said the calfskin wasn't wide enough to put on my banjo. The head measured 14" diameter. So...I was a bit frustrated. I made a couple assumptions.

1. Bob Smakla knows what he is doing. He put a skin head on a pot I bought from him, and I am assuming the head was very similar to the one I bought. No way would he sell me a head I couldn't use.

2. The repair guy at Elderly said he has put on hundreds of them. No doubts there either. I havent' put on even one....he knows more than I do...

So.... I am thinking that Bob knows certain tricks or methods that the repair guy doesn't.... or something else..... I am not sure.

So, in the end... until I get things figured out, here is what I noticed.  Bobs heads are super thin calfskin. The ones at Elderly were thicker, and probably 16-17 inches or so in diameter. For now, I settled on having a goatskin head put on... the skin is much thicker than the head I got from Bob. I'll save the head I got from Bob until I can find out what the trick is to putting it on.

I am curious what tonal qualities might be there when comparing a thin skin vs a thicker one. The thicker skin I assume will not be as bright as a thin one. 

Does anyone have any ideas where the information gap here lies? I'll email this to Bob, and maybe he can post information for any further reference. 

jbalch - Posted - 04/09/2014:  16:01:00

Installing a 14" round hide on an 11" rim is definitely possible. I do it frequently.  But there is very little (almost no) extra material to spare. I use a set of flat-tip watchmaker's pliers to help grip the hide and pull it up under the tension hoop without tearing.

watchmakers' pliers

Lyndon Smith - Posted - 04/09/2014:  16:04:27

It's often quoted that you need a hide that is at least 3" larger in diameter than the pot it is to be mounted on. So, in theory, a 14" hide is ok to fit on an 11" pot.

I have found this to be true but 4" - 5" larger is even easier to fit as you get more to pull on when fitting. The gap between the pot and the inside of the tension hoop also affects how easy it is to fit as does (probably) the thickness of the hide itself.

I've fitted several hide heads now on pots from 8", 11" and 12" and it is actually quite fun, not that difficult to do and you don't have to rush, just take it easy.

If it all goes pants, you can just remove it, re-soak (for about 15 minutes in luke-warm water) and have another go...

rudy - Posted - 04/09/2014:  16:08:38

Larger diameter skins are easier to work with, so I'm guessing the Elderly repair tech wasn't all that excited about working with a smaller diameter skin that you purchased somewhere else.  Just an educated guess, though.

blm10jn - Posted - 04/09/2014:  19:11:15

Bob sells really good heads from Stern Tanning in Milwaukee. These can be had the equivalent of the old Rogers 5 Star Vellum heads. Elderly to the best of my knowledge does not sell heads of that quality. I sent an email to Stan in regard to your problem. If you want help putting your head on contact me.

Jan Bloom
Blooms Banjos

davidppp - Posted - 04/09/2014:  20:07:08

Buying a few from Bob S., I ended up using clothes pins and a lot tiny "metal binder clips."  Patience helped, too.  It's a lot easier when you can just grab the edge and know that it will just sit there more or less while you wrestle with it somewhere else -- but for high quality skins you pay by the size.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/09/2014:  23:03:47

Here's another thing:  No matter how experienced you are, Murphy's law applies to setting banjo heads.  I'd be very hesitant to undertake a tricky installation of a customer's head were I at a business that did not sell or stock similar heads.  If a customer comes in and chooses a head from my stock, and I screw it up, it's only a matter of getting another one and starting over.  Very different with a customer's head.  That said, I've set a few heads in my time, and I remember them all being in the 14" for an 11" banjo category.  Never had a serious problem or a poorly set head.

Fathand - Posted - 04/10/2014:  06:26:57

Hmm, Elderly sells lots of 14" heads at the $9.00 price point.I have bought a few of them but have only put them on smaller pots.  I can see where they might be a snug fit if you need a high crown

pjxndvm - Posted - 04/10/2014:  06:46:22

Rudy: the tech said he basically would have no extra hide to work with. I think what he was getting at was he needed more hide to pull up along the tension hoop and pull it taught.

Jan: thats why I got a hide from Bob. I saw all Elderly carried was inexpensive hides. In comparing the hides, Elderly's were very thick compared to Bobs. I had to assume that Bobs were top notch.

Bill: very good point If something goes wrong

The repair guy said it wouldn't be done for about a month. Cost was estimated at $80-$120.No problem with the wait or the price. Elderly is my favorite place, and I enjoy supporting them as a local business. I am just wondering if I go get the banjo, is this something I can do a good job on as a first timer? Does the neck have to come off?

Bottom Line: I'd really like to have Bobs hide on the banjo. I just need to figure out a way to make this thing work out.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/10/2014:  08:41:42

Wow, a month? Must be busy times at Elderly!

Mounting a skin head takes minutes. Then there's drying time (I usually go for overnight). Trimming takes a bit more time, I like to spend the xtra time to get that right.

Probably the most time (for me) is spent getting the banjo and flesh hoop sorted out and ready to go. I usually spend a good bit of time cleaning the rim. I put a coat of car wax on the surfaces in contact with the head (tone ring, hoop or whatever it is).

Yes, you can do it. Yes, it can be done with the neck on the banjo...but much, much, much easier to do with it off.

I prefer 16" skins but 14" isn't really a big deal. John's duck-bill pliers are a great idea...but I've never used anything but my fingers.

Way back when, I watched a guy mount a head using a leather-punch tool and bamboo skewers. He would pull a bit of head thru, punch it and skewer it, go to the next bit, pull it thru, punch it and skewer it, etc., etc. When he got all the way around, he would use the skewers to pull the whole head taut.

tomberghan - Posted - 04/10/2014:  10:20:54

Well, a great place to start is to understand the process.  Here is a YouTube video in two parts that will show you exactly how to mount a hide head.  Note: My personal process is to pour myself a nice fresh mint julep and then John Balch do it for me!  

PART ONE

PART TWO

trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/10/2014:  10:47:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by tomberghan

Well, a great place to start is to understand the process.  Here is a YouTube video in two parts that will show you exactly how to mount a hide head.  Note: My personal process is to pour myself a nice fresh mint julep and then John Balch do it for me!  

PART ONE

PART TWO

---

Unfortunately, these videos are bass-ackwards of how you should actually do the job. Properly done, the edges of the skin come out the top of the banjo, not the inside. Not that this method doesn't work...but it puts two layers of skin between the top edge of the "tone ring" and the playing surface. It is also very difficult to trim the edges of the skin on the inside and do a neat job.

See Dan Levinson's Stewmac article here: stewmac.com/freeinfo/Building,...0522.html

You can also simply read S.S. Stewart's instructions online. 1001tunes.com/SkinHeadMounting...nting.htm

Another video of the correct process here: youtube.com/watch?v=EtUFFCYFzXw

swerbin - Posted - 04/10/2014:  12:08:46

Hi folks,

A couple of things here:

a) we carry Stern heads:  elderly.com/search/elderly?ter...0&y=0

We haven't listed them as Stern heads but will likely do so in the future so there is no confusion.

b) I have this message back from our head repairman Joe Konkoly:

I checked in to this. As sometimes is the case, the customer did not include all of the facts as we remember them. Scott Gierman had the skin in hand discussing the possibility of the customer installing the head. Skin measured 13 3/4", just under 14". Installation would be difficult, with possibility of ruining $60 skin. Caution needed, and maybe backing off altogether.

We are checking our stock of these heads to see what their exact sizes are...

So I think there was a combination of issues here.  We normally will install a 14" skin on an 11" pot, but this one was a little smaller, which made us hesitate.

Stan Werbin

pjxndvm - Posted - 04/10/2014:  13:11:12

Stan, 

Thanks for that link to the Stern head. As far as dealing with Scott, I could certainly see what he meant by it being a tough thing to accomplish. And my head was a touch under 14" diameter. I think I'll call your repair shop and just have them install one of these nice Stern heads. That will be the easiest solution. I didn't realize you carried them. Scott was very helpful, the whole thing unfolded differently than I expected, and I just wasn't sure what to do. 

swerbin - Posted - 04/10/2014:  15:48:03

Peter,

Thanks.  Looks like we just got them very recently so maybe the shop guys didn't even know about them.  Anyway, I think their intent was to try to call you tomorrow to suggest what you are suggesting!  Seems like the best solution to me too.

And by the way we measured our 14" heads and they were also 13-3/4"...

Stan

pjxndvm - Posted - 04/10/2014:  17:09:07

Stan, 

Thank you very much. I'm giving Banjo Camp a try this year, I'll say hello then. I think everyone learned something thru this. Fantastic.

swerbin - Posted - 04/10/2014:  19:28:06

Cool!  See you at Camp.

Stan

 

mbuk06 - Posted - 04/11/2014:  04:10:37

Last head I stretched I took  photos of the sequence of fitting a skin head. These may help you. It's no big deal if you take each step carefully and deliberately. I found it a help to look at a cutaway diagram of the process; knowing what you're trying to achieve at each stage and how the skin fits around the hoop is the biggest part.

Replacing a calf skin head (1)	Replacing a calf skin head (2)	Replacing a calf skin head (3)	Replacing a calf skin head (4)
Replacing a calf skin head (5)	Replacing a calf skin head (6)	Replacing a calf skin head (7)

rudy - Posted - 04/11/2014:  05:03:21

Hi Mike,

Great job on the photos,  Banjohangout needs more informative posts such as yours.

Whenever the topic of hide head installation comes up I like to point out that Brooks Masten has a very nice explanation of the process he uses to stabilize the tension so his heads don't change in response to atmospheric humidity level.  He has it posted in the "Babbling Brooks" section at his website.

Viper - Posted - 04/11/2014:  08:11:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

Last head I stretched I took  photos of the sequence of fitting a skin head. These may help you. It's no big deal if you take each step carefully and deliberately. I found it a help to look at a cutaway diagram of the process; knowing what you're trying to achieve at each stage and how the skin fits around the hoop is the biggest part.

  

---

Just curious, what are the clothes pins for? I've never seen that.

I've only stretched one skin in my banjo playing lifetime. I followed Brooks Masten's advice, as Rudy suggested. Here's the URL: brooksbanjos.com/index.php/bab...in_heads/

Edited by - Viper on 04/11/2014 08:11:56

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/11/2014:  09:27:55

There used to be a site that showed how to use a needle and thread to make loops - similar to the way that clothes pins are used.  You could use that method to install a 13" head or smaller on an 11" pot.

Anyone remember the link?

rudy - Posted - 04/11/2014:  09:48:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Viper

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

Last head I stretched I took  photos of the sequence of fitting a skin head. These may help you. It's no big deal if you take each step carefully and deliberately. I found it a help to look at a cutaway diagram of the process; knowing what you're trying to achieve at each stage and how the skin fits around the hoop is the biggest part.

  

---

Just curious, what are the clothes pins for? I've never seen that.

I've only stretched one skin in my banjo playing lifetime. I followed Brooks Masten's advice, as Rudy suggested. Here's the URL: brooksbanjos.com/index.php/bab...in_heads/

---

There's text below each photo that discribes the step shown.