waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  09:07:41

Hello friends,

I am going to look at this banjo next week.  It is a Bacon & Day Silver Bell 5-string.  I was sent these pictures.  I was wondering if you guys new if Bacon & Day made 5-string Silver Bells or were they all originally tenor.  I have read a lot about these in the last few days and they look like really nice banjos.  I want to know what to offer the guy who is selling it also.  He doesn't have a price in mind yet but I want to be in range with a proper offer.  I can't quite read the stamp on the back of the resonator but I make out Bacon & Day Special.  Any help is appreciated.  Thanks.

Edited by - waynerandall on 03/22/2014 11:41:43

jbalch - Posted - 03/22/2014:  09:13:07

The resonator in the last picture is not the same as the previous photos.  What is up with that?

Original 5-string Silver Bell banjos are RARE!  Chances are the neck is a reproduction.   Maybe some of the real B&D experts here will comment.

Edited by - jbalch on 03/22/2014 09:17:46

banjonz - Posted - 03/22/2014:  09:18:36

I know for a fact that B&D did make 5 strings. I have a friend here who has one and it is really nice. It is not a repro but all original. I have seriously inspected this instrument and played it. To answer the naysayers here, I have had this arguement before with George Gruhn over an original Slingerland 5 string. They may be rare but they do exist.

jbalch - Posted - 03/22/2014:  09:20:12

No doubt the do exist.  But are RARE - better to authenticate before paying top $$.

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  09:34:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

The resonator in the last picture is not the same as the previous photos.  What is up with that?

Original 5-string Silver Bell banjos are RARE!  Chances are the neck is a reproduction.   Maybe some of the real B&D experts here will comment.

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Oops.  That picture was posted my mistake

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/22/2014:  10:37:55

It's hard to tell from the picture, but this one doesn't appear to me to have a Silver Bell tone ring. It looks to small, like what they used on some of their less expensive instruments. I think "Bacon and Day Special" might be the actual model, and someone has substituted a 5 string, probably non-original, "Silver Bell" neck.

esmic - Posted - 03/22/2014:  10:41:47

The Silver Bell was designed for cutting power, primarily  as a tenor banjo in the jazz orchestras of the 1920's. They are loud, but have great tone. Fred Bacon was a classic 5 string player and despite low demand, would produce a few 5 string SBs from time to time. Original  5 strings are quite rare . I own one and know several other classic banjo players that do as well. They are great for bare fingered classic style picking on nylon, or when finger picks are used on wire strings. They are way more banjo than one needs for frailing or clawhammer.

If  you can remove the resonator,  matching serial numbers (SN)s  should be stamped on both rim and dowel stick. The SN  can be checked against Polle Flaunoe's data base to see if it is already listed as an original 5 string. If you can post better pictures of the neck and flange here, it would be much easier to evaluate the instrument's authenticity/originality. I agree with the previous post that from the one pic provided, the flange's authenticity is suspect.

Edited by - esmic on 03/22/2014 10:48:11

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  11:49:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by waynerandall

Hello friends,

I am going to look at this banjo next week.  It is a Bacon & Day Silver Bell 5-string.  I was sent these pictures.  I was wondering if you guys new if Bacon & Day made 5-string Silver Bells or were they all originally tenor.  I have read a lot about these in the last few days and they look like really nice banjos.  I want to know what to offer the guy who is selling it also.  He doesn't have a price in mind yet but I want to be in range with a proper offer.  I can't quite read the stamp on the back of the resonator but I make out Bacon & Day Special.  Any help is appreciated.  Thanks.

 

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Ok.  I just realized the guy sent me pictures of a Banjeaurine and a 5-string.  Here are some more pics.  This may clear things up.  I will know more and take more pics when I go take a look at them next week.  

Sorry for the confusion.  The photos are a little mixed up but that is all I have for now.  There are two differenct headstocks.  I am not to familiar with a banjoarine but that is what he described it as.  Thanks.

esmic - Posted - 03/22/2014:  12:19:29

The mixing up of images is confusing, but the latest rim picture is very clear. The rim has neither a Silver Bell tone ring nor flange. It's a Bacon Special rim wedded to a five string neck. Altogether a lesser calibre instrument. And if the back of resonator/heel detail pic goes with the rim pic, the neck is not authentic. Personally, I would walk away from this. It is very badly misrepresented.

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  12:22:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by esmic

The mixing up of images is confusing, but the latest rim picture is very clear. The rim has neither a Silver Bell tone ring nor flange. It's a Bacon Special rim wedded to a five string neck. Altogether a lesser calibre instrument. And if the back of resonator/heel detail pic goes with the rim pic, the neck is not authentic. Personally, I would walk away from this. It is very badly misrepresented.

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Thanks esmic.  I know it is confusing.  I will still go take a look at what they are up close.  I will take a bunch of pics and let you know more info.  

Nick Danger - Posted - 03/22/2014:  12:43:00

I’ve personally seen two examples of Bacon & Day Silver Bell five-string banjos.  One was resting in a pawn shop display case in Fullerton, California, way back in 1973 or ’74.  The asking price was $749 and, because I was still in high school, I couldn’t come up with the funds fast enough to purchase it before somebody else beat me to the punch.

The other Silver Bell belongs to a guy named Rob Quist who lives in Western Montana.  Rob was the banjoist for the Mission Mountain Wood Band which was very popular in many venues throughout the west during the mid-1970s to early-1980s.  Rob’s banjo is the B&D ‘Montana’ model which features a white holly neck and matching pearloid resonator.  The picture below is of Rob and his Montana banjo, and even though you can’t see the fifth-string tuner due to the angle of the photo, I guarantee you it’s there.

Edited by - Nick Danger on 03/22/2014 12:49:00

banjowilly22 - Posted - 03/22/2014:  13:17:48

Hi, For what it is worth, I own an original Silverbell No 2 , 5-string. They are superb banjos, like all B&D banjos.

I also owned. Montana Custom made NO4, which ended up in the Tsumura Collection.

It was made for James C Bowers, Prince of the Banjo, and he was a friend of Fred Bacon.

The existence of an ULTRA RARE Oetinger 5 string tailpiece, proves something!!

It could well be a B&D Special, but you need to check the Serial numbers are the same on the Rim and Dowel stick !!

Good luck

Keith

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 03/22/2014:  14:09:06

It is difficult to tell from the first picture but a genuine B&D neck would have the ebony or other hardwood reinforcement in the center of the neck.

My 1932 Medalist Plectrum is a conversion with a custom walnut neck. Instead of the reinforcement section, it has a stainless steel strut inside under the fingerboard.

As mentioned, from what I've read and heard, a real B&D five string wold be a rare item and, if original, I would jump on it really fast.

skip sail - Posted - 03/22/2014:  14:59:53

It doesnt look right to me,although the 5 string Oettinger tailpiece is interesting.

here's some pics of my original(verified) Silver bell 5 string

Edited by - skip sail on 03/22/2014 15:03:43

jims38134 - Posted - 03/22/2014:  16:04:35

Defintiely NOT a silver bell pot or tone ring (looks like slot head shoe bolts).  Also, from what I can tell from the poor picture that is not an Oettinger tailpiece either (looks like a Richelieu piece).  Also, I like the "disappearing dowel" trick in waynerandall's last posted photo.

  jim

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  16:11:22

quote:

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Originally posted by jims38134

Defintiely NOT a silver bell pot or tone ring (looks like slot head shoe bolts).  Also, from what I can tell from the poor picture that is not an Oettinger tailpiece either (looks like a Richelieu piece).  Also, I like the "disappearing dowel" trick in waynerandall's last posted photo.

  jim

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Hi Jim,

The pics are confusing.  The last pic without the dowel is of the other banjo I am looking at.  He is calling it a Banjeaurine.  I don't have much info on it yet.  

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  16:12:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by skip sail

It doesnt look right to me,although the 5 string Oettinger tailpiece is interesting.

here's some pics of my original(verified) Silver bell 5 string

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Thanks for the pics skip sail.

skip sail - Posted - 03/22/2014:  17:13:51

there are lots of these frankenbanjos around, an excellent repro 5 string neck on a silver bell pot sold recently for $2300

an original is a difficult thing to value,as there aren't many on the market

ps thought the tailpiece was dodgy

Edited by - skip sail on 03/22/2014 17:15:03

waynerandall - Posted - 03/22/2014:  19:53:31

Hi guys,
I got some more info on the banjos. The 5 string is a converted tenor but it is a real #2 silverbell. The banjurine was a mandolin banjo and the same man converted it into a banjurine with a silverbell neck. The neck maker on both banjos was Wayne Fairchild. He is well known from what I can find. Private message me about a value range I should be aiming for on an offer. Thanks, Wayne.

rudykizuty - Posted - 03/23/2014:  08:55:52

I too find this a very confusing thread.



If the banjo with the "tulip" flange is being passed off as a No. 2 Silver Bell, I'd run away. That flange, brass hoop tone ring and the resonator attachment that is apparent through the clear head make it very obvious to be the pot of a B&D Special, not a Silver Bell. In fact, I can see on the metal resonator tag that is states "B&D Special".



In addition, I am somewhat familiar with Mr. Fairchild's reproduction work as I have seen several examples in person. He knows very well that a No. 2 SB would have a carved heel. But again, I don't see any evidence of a No. 2 neck or pot in any of these photos.



Caveat Emptor.

Edited by - rudykizuty on 03/23/2014 08:58:10

beegee - Posted - 03/23/2014:  12:04:16

My late old buddy Ralph Wynn Hartman of Lake Worth FL and Bolivar PA made an exact copy  5 string neck for a Silver Bell #2  we bought in Delray Beach back in the early 70's. It may be anywhere now, but it's a fine copy that's out there somewhere.

beegee - Posted - 03/23/2014:  12:04:41

My late old buddy Ralph Wynn Hartman of Lake Worth FL and Bolivar PA made an exact copy  5 string neck for a Silver Bell #2  we bought in Delray Beach back in the early 70's. It may be anywhere now, but it's a fine copy that's out there somewhere.

R.D. Eno - Posted - 03/23/2014:  18:39:25

I attended an auction in Chelsea, VT in August of 2010 at which a B&D Silver Bell five string brought $3,000 -- which was, alas, a couple thousand more than I could have paid. It was in mint condition, with the original case, strings and calfskin head, and showed no sign of having been played a great deal. I attach a photo I took, not very good, I'm afraid. As I recall, the banjo had belonged to a relative of Ed Larkin, the founder of the Ed Larkin Dancers, still going after 80 some years with old new England contras in 19th century dress.

Silver Bell

skip sail - Posted - 03/25/2014:  14:07:56

i reckon they're worth $3500-4500 at present(assuming all original EC) but due to their rarity,will be worth more in years to come. Bit of a sleeper on the vintage market IMHO

waynerandall - Posted - 03/26/2014:  10:12:17

quote:

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Originally posted by skip sail

i reckon they're worth $3500-4500 at present(assuming all original EC) but due to their rarity,will be worth more in years to come. Bit of a sleeper on the vintage market IMHO

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Skip, that is about what he is asking.  $3,000 for the #2 Silver Bell and $2,000 for the Silver Bell Special. 

rudykizuty - Posted - 03/26/2014:  11:05:50

Wayne, when examining the banjo, it's important to note that the B&D Special and the Silver Bell are two completely different models in the B&D line. However, the waters do get muddy sometimes because some of the custom Silver Bells that were produced have a stamping on the dowel stick stating "Silver Bell Special".

Based on the photos above, I believe the banjo with the tulip flange to be a B&D Special, not a Silver Bell. It is important to note that the Silver Bells would have the name Silver Bell stamped on the dowel stick and on the makers tag mounted on the resonator. Without this and just the marking "Special" then you are looking at a B&D Special and while an original 5 string Special may still be rare, it is a different market value than that of a true Silver Bell.

I hope this helps.

jims38134 - Posted - 03/26/2014:  19:13:44

Neither being all original, my opinion is that the asking prices are too high in today's market. jim

Edited by - jims38134 on 03/26/2014 19:14:04