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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/265938
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mwc9725e - Posted - 06/30/2013: 15:43:37
I know there's a name for a chord that has only the 1 and 5 notes of it's scale, i.e., it's missing the 3 note. For example, such a chord in the G scale would have only the notes G and D. I think in rock circles it's called a "power chord", but does anyone know a more generic name for it? I can't think of it for the life of me.
Border Collie Man - Posted - 06/30/2013: 16:10:22
If it only has two distinct notes, it's not a chord. It's probably best to call it a perfect fifth (interval), much as a 1 and b5 played together are called a tritone, after the interval name. Generically you'll also hear two-note intervals described as double stops. You wouldn't refer to it as a 5th chord because that would confuse people into thinking you were referring to the chord function (i.e. the V chord).
If you're talking with rock guitar and bass guitar players you might refer to it as a power chord but most other people would start looking for a cable connected to an appliance.
Fathand - Posted - 06/30/2013: 17:27:47
It is a Partial Chord since actual chords have 3 or more notes.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 06/30/2013: 17:33:55
I'm sticking with "GEORGE' or "HARRY". These are names everyone knows.
Jim Yates - Posted - 06/30/2013: 18:52:52
I call it a "Five chord" even though it's not really a chord. Marc, I kinda like Ralph.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 06/30/2013: 20:05:38
It very much depends on the context of your use, but I would say that in Old Time and Folk music the most common use would be as a V chord (aka Dominant).
Jim Yates - Posted - 06/30/2013: 20:40:05
oldwoodchuckb - You're right. It does get confused with a dominant chord. I've heard it called a power chord, a modal chord and a five chord, but I don't particularly like any of them. Maybe we should come up with another name for a "chord" with a missing third. Double stop was suggested above, but that is also used for a root and third or a third and fifth; actually any two notes. What makes the "power chord" unique is that it can be used in place of either a major or minor chord.
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 06/30/2013: 21:07:07
Power chords use only a root and a 5th, but they are not limited to the V chord, the I and IV are also played as power chords. I'm not aware of any other name for them. They are ambiguous, having no 3rd interval to define major or minor tonality.
Paul
janolov - Posted - 07/01/2013: 05:52:50
Significant for the so-called power chord is that it is the root and fifth that are played together on amplified guitars with distortion. The power chords began to be used in the 50's. The distortion give an extra dimension to the chord because new tones are created. I don't think it is relevant to call it power chords when you play the root and fifth in OT music on an acoustic banjo.
mwc9725e - Posted - 07/01/2013: 06:09:04
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
Significant for the so-called power chord is that it is the root and fifth that are played together on amplified guitars with distortion. The power chords began to be used in the 50's. The distortion give an extra dimension to the chord because new tones are created. I don't think it is relevant to call it power chords when you play the root and fifth in OT music on an acoustic banjo.
Such a "chord" is used a lot in banjo playing, for example a partial D in GDGBD tuning. I'm surprised it apparently has no name.I Looks like I must have been wrong.
janolov - Posted - 07/01/2013: 06:29:30
A partial chord is not the same as a power chord. In my opinion electric distortion is necessary to obtain a "power chord" effects.
Jim Yates - Posted - 07/01/2013: 07:18:51
Players of Irish trad music use a lot of root+five partial chords as well. The GDAD tuning on long neck mandolins and the DADGAD tuning on guitar seem to facilitate this.
The mountain dulcimer is often tuned AAD or DAD and i believe the drones on the Scottish pipes are roots and fifths.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 07/01/2013: 08:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
A partial chord is not the same as a power chord. In my opinion electric distortion is necessary to obtain a "power chord" effects.
So when played acoustically, it must be a "powerless chord": you need to plug in to get the power. Not applicable during power failures.
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 07/01/2013 08:34:40
Border Collie Man - Posted - 07/01/2013: 12:14:03
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
A partial chord is not the same as a power chord. In my opinion electric distortion is necessary to obtain a "power chord" effects.
Watt's up with that?
mwc9725e - Posted - 07/01/2013: 13:49:01
quote:
Originally posted by Border Collie Man
quote:
Originally posted by janolov
A partial chord is not the same as a power chord. In my opinion electric distortion is necessary to obtain a "power chord" effects.
Watt's up with that?
It does seem to be the current point of view. I predict it'll encounter a lot of resistance in the future, though.
Edited by - mwc9725e on 07/01/2013 13:56:03
Jonny5 - Posted - 07/01/2013: 14:09:14
Just for today we up here in Canada are using mostly Eh!C. Go Blue Jays
David McLaughlin - Posted - 07/01/2013: 21:02:20
I believe you are talking about a dyad, which in the case of a standard major chord is most often a 1 with a 5, without the 3, since the 1 with the 3 still suggests a triad with 5.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/02/2013: 02:27:11
obviously it is an "unplugged chord".
Personally, I usually don't call it a chord at all and rarely sound more than 2 notes together anyway - when playing OT banjo that is.
In G tuning a normal D chord position includes no third (x0230), while in double C tuning the most common fingering of the G chord (02020) has no third.
It is almost impossible to make full chords in F tuning (fCFCD), and I play all my G tunes in this tuning capoed to the 2nd fret (Old G in my parlance, but aka Sandy River Belle Tuning).
The "root chord" is 00003 fCFCF no third
the "4 chord" aka sub-dominant, is almost completely unworkable since it is hard to find a root note (Bb) for it. there are easy 3rds for it at the 2nd fret of the 4th and 2nd strings. (02020 - which is the notes fDFDF)
The V chord is easiest played x0202 which is all Cs and Gs - no easy to reach 3rds to make an actual chord but the suggestion is pretty strong.
I cannot understand however, why so many banjo players go for chords when the obvious strength of the banjo is in playing tunes - which don't really need chords.
Jim Yates - Posted - 07/02/2013: 03:44:15
Thank you David. From now on a root/five double stop will be referred to, by me, as a "dyad", a word I've heard to describe a relationship between two people, but never two notes. But why not?
Sorry Marc. I've rejected George, Harry and Ralph.
"I cannot understand however, why so many banjo players go for chords when the obvious strength of the banjo is in playing tunes - which don't really need chords."
Because in certain songs and situations, it just sounds so good. I don't do a lot of full chords, but sometimes it's just the right thing for that situation.
Edited by - Jim Yates on 07/02/2013 03:52:24
David McLaughlin - Posted - 07/02/2013: 05:42:20
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckbI cannot understand however, why so many banjo players go for chords when the obvious strength of the banjo is in playing tunes - which don't really need chords.
Many of us are chord thinkers in the sense that we use chord structure to find qualifying notes for melody. When I play any instrument, chord knowledge is critical. On banjo I am always playing out of triad, tetrad, and pentad (even hexad) chords even if in arpeggio. I always stress to my students that they should learn and understand the chord progression for all the music they play, and that knowing the chords helps them find melody notes.
Edited by - David McLaughlin on 07/02/2013 05:46:02
David McLaughlin - Posted - 07/02/2013: 05:47:30
Every time I try to lessen the gap through the edit feature, it gets bigger and bigger... So I'll stop!
wbelm - Posted - 07/02/2013: 06:04:59
All fine posts David......well thought and well said......from a world class musician.....Thanks, Bill
jojo25 - Posted - 07/02/2013: 08:34:50
I too call these "power chords"...there are some in OT...and in BG...who do not play anything but major chords...even if the tune sounds modal or minor...I am not advocating for or against this approach...but I have fun using an "A" power chord...just A and E...use it in A major tunes...in D tunes... and sometimes in A modal tunes and A minor tunes...easy to do out of double D tuning...and presents opportunities to really drive the tune forward...slide into those "E"s....and the drones are, IMHO, very banjonic
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 07/02/2013: 08:55:03
I like David McGlaughlin's term "dyad" as a name for these "chords".
I'm having a hard time parting with "George" though. Sigh.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/02/2013: 16:19:48
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Yates"I cannot understand however, why so many banjo players go for chords when the obvious strength of the banjo is in playing tunes - which don't really need chords."
Because in certain songs and situations, it just sounds so good. I don't do a lot of full chords, but sometimes it's just the right thing for that situation.
Sometimes - yes indeed. But I hear far too much uninterrupted banging out of chords for three minutes at a time, followed by another "tune" that sounds exactly like the first because it too is just banging out chords for three minutes.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/02/2013: 16:40:45
quote:
Originally posted by David McLaughlinMany of us are chord thinkers in the sense that we use chord structure to find qualifying notes for melody. When I play any instrument, chord knowledge is critical. On banjo I am always playing out of triad, tetrad, and pentad (even hexad) chords even if in arpeggio. I always stress to my students that they should learn and understand the chord progression for all the music they play, and that knowing the chords helps them find melody notes.
And this is exactly the kind of thinking I try to get my students to break out of. It is a guitaristic way of thinking and really has little use in old time music. Holding full chords does a lot toward discouraging slides, and slurs, and of course cuts down on the use of out of scale notes. It locks the left hand into a position that has little to do with the way melody is created on banjo and fiddle.
Once one learns to "hear" melody as melody instead of as triads and tetrads it becomes a matter of simply hitting the note you hear to play along with most melodies (at least until you get into heavily chordal music like Jazz). Once you can hear melody, you can reproduce it, vary it, even create counter-melody. There is little point in smothering it under heavy chords
Most old time tunes benefit from a lighter approach to harmony as well since many come from a time before the guitar wormed its way into the South. How many times have we seen the question "What chords did Dock Boggs use in..." when it is obvious when listening to Boggs that he isn't using chords at all and that any chords applied to what he did will result in pop garbage (Check out that bluegrass singer doing "Country Blues" to see what I'm talking about - It might be Ricky Scaggs).
There is always more than one way to harmonize a melody, making it easier to create your own unique sound by avoiding the "standard" chords. I like drones and pedal points - I'm a banjo player and that is what the instrument does well. Without all the chords in the way it is easier to create new melodic variants too. My favourite jam group is 3 fiddles and banjo (me) - no guitar, no bass. Every time we play the same old tunes they come out different, because we never play them in exactly the same way. We aren't being dictated to by 19th century harmony. I like playing with traditional mountain dulcimer players too. In fact a good dulcimer player or Irish style bouzouki player, is a far better stringband instrument than the guitar. It re-enforces the not Nashville Country nature of the music.
Hilarie Burhans - Posted - 07/02/2013: 18:21:26
Just because you don't want to play 'em on the banjo is no reason not to want to have something to call them when you wanna tell the guitar player to not play the third. If the guitar player clings to playing A modal tunes in good, comfy old Am, say, the dyad is sort of the "gateway chord" for modal tunes... eventually you work up to the hard stuff (major chords, lots of dissonance... aaaahh!)
I play lots and lots of chords with my left hand. I don't necessarily play the strings involved with my right hand all the time; I just don't like the vibrating "other" strings to make a sound I don't want them to make.
Jonny5 - Posted - 07/02/2013: 22:17:14
quote:
Originally posted by Hilarie Burhans
Just because you don't want to play 'em on the banjo is no reason not to want to have something to call them when you wanna tell the guitar player to not play the third. If the guitar player clings to playing A modal tunes in good, comfy old Am, say, the dyad is sort of the "gateway chord" for modal tunes... eventually you work up to the hard stuff (major chords, lots of dissonance... aaaahh!)
I play lots and lots of chords with my left hand. I don't necessarily play the strings involved with my right hand all the time; I just don't like the vibrating "other" strings to make a sound I don't want them to make.
I originally heard of a Dyad at a couples retreat. Hope it works better on a banjo. I guess we vibrated the wrong strings in each other, for now they're cut. And there is a Hole in my bagpipes. Brutal!
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/03/2013: 01:45:24
I just don't understand why people play the banjo at all if all they want to do is turn it into a crippled guitar.
Hilarie Burhans - Posted - 07/03/2013: 14:02:31
Yeah, Tony... I guess I just really wanna be a guitar player, so I pretend the banjo is a guitar, except I hit the strings with my nails instead of with a pick, and I play the melody of fiddle tunes over and over for 10 minutes or so, and do a lot more hammer ons, pull-offs, and slides than I probably would do if it was a REAL guitar. ;-)
banjoman_18 - Posted - 07/04/2013: 05:06:26
In music theory twi bites that are played togeather are known as a diad. Two notes that are playe one after another is known as intervale. The technical aspect of two note that make a tone of any intervale will always function as a DIAD. If you want to call it a power chord go ahead.
mwc9725e - Posted - 07/04/2013: 06:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by banjoman_18
In music theory twi bites that are played togeather are known as a diad. Two notes that are playe one after another is known as intervale. The technical aspect of two note that make a tone of any intervale will always function as a DIAD. If you want to call it a power chord go ahead.
I got it -- How about "the Devil's chord"?
Jim Yates - Posted - 07/04/2013: 10:46:20
I just Googled "Dyad (music)" and found:
In music, a dyad is a set of two notes or pitches.[2] Although most chords have three or more notes, in certain contexts a dyad may be considered to be a chord.
The most common two-note chord is made from the interval of a perfect fifth, which may be suggestive of music of the Medieval or Renaissance periods, or various kinds of rock music. When fifths are missing from major or minor triads, on the other hand, they may still suggest triads. For example, C and E may suggest a C major triad (C-E-G),[3] which in the key of F major is the dominant and would lead back to F, the tonic.
Since an interval is the distance between two pitches, dyads may be classified by the interval each entails. When the pitches of a dyad occur in succession, they may be regarded as forming a melodic interval. When they occur simultaneously, they may be regarded as forming a harmonic interval.
Jim Yates - Posted - 07/04/2013: 10:51:08
If I Google "Dyad" without the "(music)", I find:
Dyad may refer to:
I do recall the first definition from taking Sociology courses, but all of the others are new to me.
banjoak - Posted - 07/04/2013: 15:33:19
The OP "what chord?" is apt, using the common reference to what a chord is.
The modern Western Art Music definition of a chord based on the Eighteenth century Rameau's major/minor functional chord harmony (and largley based on the triad). Not all music theorists, nor classical composers agree(d) with that; Bruckner, Bartok, Kodaly, even Mozart -The etymology of the word is older, and did not make any requirement of 3 notes. As well the concept of accompaniment without a third seems exists and has existed outside and before Rameau and Western Art Music. But no doubt most books written and teaching for music education are in that WAM perspective.
How the word chord is commonly used in folk music is generally as accompaniment to a melody. Chords can be arpeggiated, successive in sequence; do not have to be simultaneous.
Dyads are often thought of differently and as just 2 notes. A sequence of dyads might not give the sense of chords, but rather a melodic line that with a parallel harmonic line. A triad is technically not a chord; just a reference to the relationship of 3 note intervals - which could exist just melodically, and not be a chord. Like in the melody "Taps" - it's a melodic line not a chord.
A stack of octave GDGDG, played as a rhythmic and harmonic accompaniment, is for practical and functional purposes, and common reference - a chord.
As such the ways to communicate that chord to others is as a G with no third; or written as G (no 3) - G5 - or G ind. (indeterminate) - sometimes referred to as empty fifth.
As far as "power chord" the no third stack of root/fifth is a power sound even on non-electric instruments, and found in many other genres around the world. It is quite useful for accompanying songs and tunes that are more modal and horizontal based, (some modes are just less third based), as well useful for playing with those using just intonation and especially those that use neutral tones, as it allows for the melody (of fiddler or singer) to define. ET emphasized thirds tend to make a extra artificial sweet sound compared to a more rootsy powerful (or other) sound available.
If it looks like a chord, sounds like a chord, and serves essentially the same function of a chord - "chord" is a reasonable word to use - except perhaps around many formally taught western art music students.
Edited by - banjoak on 07/04/2013 15:36:50
iknowhowtopickem - Posted - 07/08/2013: 15:24:08
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Yes
It's
called a "power chord" -- which is a slang term. Or it can be notated as a "5" chord. For example, G5 -- which indicates that it consists of the first and fifth note of the G major scale.
quote
:
Originally posted by mwc9725e
I know there's a name for a chord that has only the 1 and 5 notes of it's scale, i.e., it's missing the 3 note. For example, such a chord in the G scale would have only the notes G and D. I think in rock circles it's called a "power chord", but does anyone know a more generic name for it? I can't think of it for the life of me.
NDJohn - Posted - 07/08/2013: 15:43:40
Technically, two notes form a dyad. But, like interval, the term dyad has no implied harmonic context. In the context this sound has been described in this thread, C5 is more appropriate, since the implication is that we have a C-root chord, with no third. Context is important. If this sound were to be labeled in a lead sheet, it would be C5.
Best,
John
NDJohn - Posted - 07/08/2013: 18:31:43
Sorry. To be clearer, my "C5" example above refers to the note C with a G above it. "G5" would be a G note with a D above it; etc.
Best,
John
jmabus - Posted - 07/08/2013: 19:04:09
I've not logged on to Banjo Hangout for a while, but stumbled upon this topic just now. This is one of my favorite examples of how music terminology is like language -- slang depends on who you talk to. I use this dyad as an example to my students. (Yes, a dyad is a chord, just with two notes. Triads have three. When you get to 4, 5 and 6 note chords, terminology gets really interesting. But dyads are very handy to know about if you play fiddle -- or bluegrass mandolin.)
So what is the name of that G-D chord? Yep, a rocker calls it a G power chord, a jazz player calls it a G5, a classical player is likely to say, "an open G" and old-time and Irish players are likely to say a "G drone." My point to my students is that music theory is all about communication. No sense in being pedantic and saying the person who has a different name for something is stupid or wrong. The successful studio musician knows to try to understand what the other person *means* and get on with the music.
My other favorite example is "drop chord." To a jazz guitarist or pianist, this means a particular inversion of an extended chord. To some bluegrass musicians, it means playing an F chord in an otherwise G major song. As in "this next one is in the key of G, but watch out for a drop chord in the chorus"
Joel Mabus
bradbahler - Posted - 07/08/2013: 21:17:50
Dyad, as opposed to a Triad; a chord requires 3 or more notes. In Sacred Harp singing, all minor song, and some major, resolve to a 1-5 dyad, with the b3 used in passing. This is interesting because in modern music, the 3 determines major and minor. This gives an ambiguity that has been mentioned in other posts. Banjo players will notice that in G modal, or sawmill tuning, or "mountain minor" the minor feel is also made without the b3 in the chord (again, used in passing). Notice how often Ralph Stanley avoids the open 2nd string in the forward roll in many of his songs, concentrating on the 1-5 notes
Gordy Ohliger - Posted - 07/09/2013: 09:42:51
If it sounds good; play it.
I've shared my "Gordy Chords" with three jazz-piano guys and they've come up with numerous answers for each...it may be the context of usage.
Jim Yates - Posted - 07/09/2013: 10:47:30
One reason for chord based or dyad based playing is having a handy note to drop your thumb to. By making a C (0545) and partial Bb (X323) i can play, in double C tuning:
___5_______5_______7_______5_______3_______3_______5_______3________
_______4_______________(4)______________2______________(2)___________
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
_______________0_______________0_______________0________________0___
Bracketed notes are optional.
This is the first two measures of Brian Pickell's Late Snow, learned from the Humber River Valley Boys' first album.
Edited by - Jim Yates on 07/09/2013 10:51:28
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