BDCA - Posted - 05/14/2013:  19:34:29

Picked up and RK CH banjo last week but after a couple days realized i wanted the real deal. Last week I had a chance to play some Reiters an a Ramsey. . The Ramsey sounded great, the Reiters sounded about the same as the Eastman ..sort of hollow and nasty.. Any suggestions??

Cya!

Bob

J-Walk - Posted - 05/14/2013:  19:44:39

Even expensive big name banjos can sound hollow -- AKA "echo-y". But, as your know, the banjo you;'re playing sounds nothing like the banjo that the people 10 feet in front of you are hearing.

Some of us stuff rags under the pot to make it sound better to the player. I'm not totally convinced that the stuffing actually improves the sound to the listener. 

I think you can do better than the RK. Can't go wrong with a Ramsey. I have one that you can try out if you like (but it's not for sale). I'll bring it to the First Friday Jam if you'll be there. Let me know.

Quartermaster James - Posted - 05/14/2013:  19:54:29

Golly! I really have to wonder how those Reiters were set-up.

I've not ever heard one described as "nasty" before!

Edited by - Quartermaster James on 05/14/2013 19:55:57

davidbragger - Posted - 05/14/2013:  20:02:44

I absolutely love Reiter banjos! If you got the dough, I'd go Romero! By the way, the Recording King Madison (open back or resonator) is an awesome sounding banjo when set up properly with a skin head! Not hollow at all!! 

timacn - Posted - 05/14/2013:  20:28:47

Ramseys and Reiters  have great and well deserved reputations, but I'm a serious Wildwood fan.  Make sure you give them a look too.  They are physically striking and they sound as good as they look.

Play all three and go with your gut.  (and your ears)

howseth - Posted - 05/14/2013:  23:15:10

You could hop over to Boulder, Co and try out some of the Ome models.. However, maybe you need to head out to a place like Elderly, In Lansing, or Zepps in N. Carolina, or Gruhn in  Nashville - or Gryphen - you know where - etc, etc,

Seems like you need to lay your hands on a lot of different models/makes - in person.

pastorharry - Posted - 05/15/2013:  01:36:26

I'm convinced that most any open back banjo can sound good with the right setup , and even the best can sound bad without the proper setup. Reiter's like real tight heads which usually isn't the case at the shop.Some of the best sounding banjos out there today,(for me), are the new Ome's with the shorter scale, wider fretboards and wood rims>AKA no tone ring, and the Wildwood exotic wood banjos>Hardwood tone rings. These banjos have a more pleasing tone to the ear, and are easy on the back and the pocketbook. Happy hunting.

singinandpickin - Posted - 05/15/2013:  02:34:53

Bob, I have had a similar experience, some
Openbacks just have a "tinny" or "holllow"sound
I don't like.
How it sounds 10 ft away doesn't matter if
The thing in my lap doesn't sound pleasing
to my ear.
Have you tried white mountain banjo in
Phoenix? I'd like to know how that compares
to the others you've tried.
My small local shop has a banjo with a mastertone
Type tone ring (w/resonator) that I liked and I'be seen a few
open backs with that kind of setup.

BDCA - Posted - 05/15/2013:  02:56:20

I was surprised how different the Ramsey vs. Eastman / Reiter banjos sounded. The Eastman and Reiter were similar with the Eastman heading in the wrong direction. All the ones I mention had Whyte Ladye tone rings, Renaissance heads and similar tail pieces. They all played very similarly and action was equal and higher than I am used to playing tenor. I had also considered the Wildwood as well but I have yet to play one.

On my recent trip to Chapel Hill, all the OT players has a small piece of foam stuffed behind the bridge between the dowel and head. That may have reduced some of the ringing quality.

My experience with Renaissance heads is that they have to be very tight, 92+ on a Drum Dial. I doubt this general music store, which was extremely well set up with a great range of instruments (and prices to match) would have had the banjos set up optimally. Though they certainly had been set up.

Cya!

Bob

DEmery - Posted - 05/15/2013:  04:57:46

I don't normally comment on threads where brands are being compared and understand brand loyalty. "For me" I do enjoy specific builders but only to the extent they provide a banjo neck carved to my taste, rims to the thickness/depth I'm looking for, and the hardware/finishes desired on a particular banjo. Many builders are carving a neck they are comfortable with and fitting it to a stock rim they purchase and turn with standard hardware. I find limited differences tonally if they are using the same grade wood (maple, mahogany, walnut necks on a maple rim); and feel strongly much of the performance depends on set up choices such as heads, bridges, action, etc... As for stuffing a banjo; I don't do it much but it can be a technique to alter overtones. Even the great bluegrass player Bobby Thompson used a towel in his banjo to alter tones. It is nothing more than a pedal effect...if desired.

I have a fine Romero that was delivered last year but when it was received it did not sound they way it does now. It sounded the way Jason Romero built it and had it set up for his taste as a player and builder. He built it to my standards but we had a long conversation about skin head thickness and bridge design. Romero prefers thin hide heads and his bridges (while pretty) are heavy and produce a tone more suited for finger picking in my view. When the banjo arrived I addressed the issues of set up and it cracks like a gun...which I like a lot. Other recent banjos I had completed from builders include different woods, thin rims 3/8" at 3" depth, and brass clad rims. Some are 11" and others 12". Each is different and designed for that difference. I think Mike Ramsey or Bart Reiter or an import banjo could perform similarly - if I could get similar design, fit, finishes, and hardware.

All to say it may be fun to tinker with the design options or preferences of a banjo and see where you can get it done to your taste along with set up that lets "you" do your best on the instrument. Selling off a good number of pieces last year and rebuilding around this idea has been fun for me and the results good. Attached are some photos of recent banjos completed. David E.

#9 neck with balch hide head and tim purcell bridge		Seeders #13
Jason Burns Dobson in Curly Walnut	J.L. Sproull Woody #005

banjered - Posted - 05/15/2013:  06:33:09

Keeping in mind the quality of 1) materials, 2) design, ad 3) craftmanship is the way I look at banjos. To me, Reiter has high quality materials and craftmanship but I don't care for his thicker rims and the banjo just seems heavy/over built. This is more a preference on my part, not a design "flaw." I had a Reiter at one time and gave it up because of its harsh tone. I didn't know about modifying it with a skin head at the time which is what I would do now. I've heard some pretty nice sounding Reiters on the net, nothing "live" yet. I'd like to try out his Round Peak model. Ramsey's weakness is his varible craftmanship, particularly in the fifth fret area where he often crowds the strings and puts the fifth tuner post where it is hard to put a capo there. But to me, they sound better than most Reiters. If I came across a good Ramsey I'd nail it immediately. The one brief exposure I had to a Eastman was that it looked and sounded a bit tinny, didn't have a chance to look at it close or touch/test drive it. Wildwoods tend to be well made but heavy banjos too but it has been awhile since I picked one up ( I like/prefer lighter banjos). Banjered

5Stringtrout - Posted - 05/15/2013:  06:36:42

I have a Reiter Whyte Layde that sounds better fingerpicked (without picks) a Ramsey Bacon 11" pot that sounds sweet but the one I end up playing most is my Huss and Dalton Singletree 12" with no tone ring. It can do it all.

BDCA - Posted - 05/15/2013:  07:12:37

I used the word nasty but harsh is the better description. I also am aware that set up is critical in getting closest to the desired sound. I was quite surprised that amongst the three banjos with the same heads, similar bridges and tone rings, the Ramsey was so different.

Cya!

Bob

shannonhearne - Posted - 05/15/2013:  08:54:24

Hello Bob,

What a nice delima to have.

My  advice: go for the Ramsey.  You will not be dissappointed.

Mike's 12 inch rims are amazing.  I believe hie does his best work with his 12 inch rims.

I have found hhis 12 inch rims also tend to soften the harshness that often accompanies a Whyte Laydie ring as you move to the upper end of the neck.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.

     -shannon (Cya)

Edited by - shannonhearne on 05/15/2013 09:18:43

olsneelock - Posted - 05/15/2013:  09:45:01

I believe Mike Ramsey builds his with a much thinner, lighter rim than the other two. Also, the Eastman has a bracket band.

blockader - Posted - 05/15/2013:  10:44:02

Bob, i don't think you could go wrong with any of those three, but you'll certainly have a preference when the individual banjo is in your hand. You seem to travel around a great deal so my recommendation would be to hit up as many banjo shops as possible in your travels until you find the exact banjo that speaks to you, playing the RK in meantime. 

Justin

Steve Jeter - Posted - 05/15/2013:  11:12:51

I had a chance at a recent re enactment, to play a high dollar well known maker banjo. I guess I was expecting the skies to part, or something, but although it was made in perfection, it didn't seem any better player than my cc-ot,,,, I was totally surprised,, so I guess you never know??

 what I mean is,  if you pickup a yamaha 500 $ guitar, then a d 35 there is NO comparison, the 35  is alive, I didnt experience this with this banjo



if I had the money Id get a Ramsey,

Edited by - Steve Jeter on 05/15/2013 11:14:09

jbalch - Posted - 05/15/2013:  14:54:39

Bob:

Just curious: was the Ramsey model you played an "Electric"?  Was it an 11" rim. Those models have mahogany necks (the rim might be mahogany too - rather than maple - his website does not say).  I think mahogany can provide a noticeably warmer sound than maple in some banjos. That might be something for you to consider.

We are living in THE golden age of open back banjos. There are so many options available it is mind-blowing. My friend David Emery has the BEST collection of modern-built banjos that I've seen. Among his instruments there is a big range of great tones. They are all a little different.

There are very real differences among the various builders. Besides the obvious things, there are many subtle distinctions like: neck profile, fit & finish, responsiveness, and the overall vibe of the instrument.

So...there is simply no substitute for playing lots of banjos and deciding what really works for you personally.  Over the past 40 years - I've owned literally more than 100 banjos.  It took a LOT of buying-selling-and trading for me to figure put exactly what I prefer...and how I like to set them up.  And - I'm still learning.

Bart Reiter banjos are my personal favorites.  With a proper set up, I'm confident the don't sound hollow, or nasty, or harsh.  I prefer them over others I've owned - for the way the feel, sound and respond to my playing.  I also think they represent a tremendous value. They are just right for me - but not necessarily for everyone else.

Best Wishes!

Edited by - jbalch on 05/15/2013 14:56:23

BDCA - Posted - 05/15/2013:  15:37:28

Thanks for the input John. I actually have my eye on one particular Reiter which I will be checking out next week It's certainly a different landscape for open back banjos in terms of the vast range available, and for Old Time music in general, then 40 years ago. I see it as a new and rewarding challenge.

Cya!

Bob

J-Walk - Posted - 05/15/2013:  17:35:29

Bob, if you're coming to the next First Friday jam in Tucson, I will bring two banjos that, in theory, should sound kind of similar. My Jason Burns, with Dobson tone ring, and my Johannes Boneffaas, with Dobson tone ring. One cost more than twice the other. 

Both are great banjos, and sound really good to the listener. One of them sounds great the the player. The other sounds harsh to the player.

Neither is for sale.

jbalch - Posted - 05/15/2013:  17:45:27

Jason Burn's banjos are simply fantastic.  David Emery's Burns-made slothead is the BEST Dobson-style banjo I have personally seen.

Edited by - jbalch on 05/15/2013 17:46:55

72chevy - Posted - 05/15/2013:  19:43:47

good timely thread for me as i'm new to openbacks and recently started learning non BG styles and am in search mode for a new instrument as well. I enjoy reading folks ideas, what they like and dont and why... i have played a few and need to see and play more. i have tried a few reiters but need to spend some more time with them. i dug the baconphone sound alot which was a suprise to me. i liked the buckbee alot too. i did play a rk ot25 as well. i thought it was a fine banjo but for now passed on that.

curious BDCA did you buy the ot version of the rk and what do you think of the sound on its own and then compared to the other banjos you played. i gave some thought on the eastman as well but not any close to try.

thanks,
-tommy

Quartermaster James - Posted - 05/15/2013:  20:27:22

Buy all the banjos!

But, seriously, try one of Bart's older IR models, if you get the chance.

BDCA - Posted - 05/15/2013:  21:05:07

John, I'll definitely be at the jam so please bring the two.

Tommy, I bought the RK Ne Plus Ultra because I want the Whyte Laydie tone ring. I have one in my Gold Tone Irish tenor and even contemplated switching necks, but that made no sense economically once you factor in the cost of the neck and a new case..

I was looking for a GT WL but the RK cam up on the BHO and I bought it. I only had it a couple of days before I left town, so I am looking forward to working on the set up. I also picked up an original no knot which I will try as well.

To my ear it sounded similar to the Eastman and the Reiters, but as we all know with banjos, set up is a huge part of getting the sound you want. The action is way low and I'll probably build up my bridge to 3/4". I am not impressed with the RK build quality which falls far short of my Gold Tone, especially since the Ne Plus Ultra is supposed to be a top of the line open back. I am even more disappointed with RKs service and Greg Riche's total lack of response. That's one reason I want to move on to a better banjo. I have been asked to play CH on an Irish CD being recorded this summer in Boston, so I want to have a decent instrument and get back in good form.

I was going to try to trade or sell my 1926 Paramount Style B, but after tonight's gig, it sounds way to good and I'll be kicking myself if I sell it, so add one more to the pile...I guess one can never have too many banjos.

BTW I appreciate all the input and it has ben invaluable!!

Cya!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/16/2013:  03:12:15

"I guess one can never have too many banjos"

Who's counting? Certainly not me....

Enjoy!

JB

BDCA - Posted - 05/16/2013:  18:34:29

Does anyone have an opinion on the Reiter internal resonator model?

Thanks!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/16/2013:  18:42:58

Here is a recent thread on the topic. banjohangout.org/topic/260974

BDCA - Posted - 05/16/2013:  19:58:05

But how do you like them...What is the difference between the 8 and 2 F hole  models.

Thanks!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/17/2013:  05:03:48

The IR banjos have a wider," more "open" (less focused) sound.  The bass response is enhanced.

I don't hear a difference between those with two vs. eight f-holes. Prior to the early 1990s, Bart cut the f-holes by hand.  Back then, these banjos were "standard" with only two holes.  Adding the additional six cost extra.  But sometime around 1994, he set up a cutting jig to make the job easier.  Thereafter, eight holes were standard. Mine all have eight holes - but personally I like the look of the ones that have only two.

I really like mine a lot! I prefer them for solo or duet playing. The record very well (Both of my CDs were made Reiter using IR banjos).  However, I think the more focused Bacophone-plus model "cuts" more and is a little better in a jam session or band.

1143 & 1144 rim view 2	1143 & 1144 rim view 3	1144 a-scale custom grand concert	1143 grand concert
1143 and 1144	1143 and 1144 back view

BDCA - Posted - 05/17/2013:  06:00:13

I assume the two are fitted with a skin head? I have both CDs and will give a good listen.

What would a Renaissance head do to the tone?

Thanks!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/17/2013:  06:13:10

When those CDs were recorded (a few years ago) I used Fyberskin heads.

Carry On John was entirely recorded using the custom a-scale grand concert (#1144).  HOT Biscuit Jam was recorded mostly using a very RARE 12" Internal Resonator (similar to the one pictured below). I did also use a couple of other banjos on some tracks of that CD.

More sound samples of various Reiter IR banjos are attached too.

12" Grand Concert #909 rim	#909 internal resonator rim	Sosebee Bridge & Prucha Presto on #909	xx The Soldiers Joy series -Reiter 12
xx The Soldiers Joy Series -Reiter Grand Concert	UnNamed Tune on Bart Reiter 12" Grand Concert #909	NEEDLECASE on Bart Reiter 12" Grand Concert #909	Lost Cherokee on Bart Reiter Grand Concert #1143
Farther Along - Bart Reiter Grand Concert #1143 sample

Cathy Fink - Posted - 05/20/2013:  11:18:46

What you need to remember is that each banjo will sound different with a different set-up. the head, bridge, action, strings all contribute to the sound, as does whether or not you use any stuffing inside the head (I like a little to calm overtones, but not as a mute).
It can take lots of experimenting to create a sound/setup you love from each banjo. patience required!
Cathy

BDCA - Posted - 05/20/2013:  11:32:56

There's the rub! You never know how a banjo could sound, just how it does at the moment with what ever setup or lack of it happens to have at the time.

I just sold a Paramount Style B which flat out sounded better for Irish music than any Paramount I have ever owned or played. I use similar stubs on all which have the same tone ring and similar rims, but this one was special. I hated to let it go but it went to a friend, so I'll always be able to play it when I am in Boston...part of the deal.

My quandary is that I don't know enough about desirable claw hammer sound, so I'll probably base my decision of 50% gut and 50% recommendations on the BHO.

Thanks!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/20/2013:  11:39:02

I'd say - follow your gut and buy something that you think will work for you.

Like Cathy said above, you can tailor the sound of any good banjo with simple set-up and technique - which just takes time.

BDCA - Posted - 05/20/2013:  12:54:13

So what I have heard is that I really can't go wrong wither either a decent used Ramsey, Reiter or Wildwood. I'm trying to keep it as close to $1500-$1800.

Thanks!

Bob

jbalch - Posted - 05/20/2013:  13:54:56

As has been said here: those are all fine makers.  There are subtle differences between them.

If you have a gut feel toward one or the other ... that is probably your right direction.  None of us can say which is absolutely best for you.

You can tweak any of them with set up changes and playing technique.

JMalmsteen - Posted - 05/20/2013:  14:16:16

I would go for an Ome or a Romero. Those are the best open backs I have come across. It's all personal taste though.

saltlick - Posted - 05/20/2013:  14:18:29

BDCA - Posted - 05/20/2013:  14:20:33

I have 5 tenors, 4 are vintage and all wonderful. When I sold my Paramount it was like saying goodbye to my dog. I'm back home tomorrow and then the BAS games begin. I'm probably heading straight from the airport to the Folk Shop..

Thanks all for your help. I may be back with more questions.

Cya!

majikgator - Posted - 05/20/2013:  15:46:07

Don't know about Mike Ramsey's best work being on 12" rims, my 11" Ramsey is just so sweet. i personally have never heard a bad banjo by Bart Reiter though maybe the setup was not to your liking, i don't know much about Wildwood banjo's other than they cost a lot of money. Reiter and Ramsey seem to keep their prices reasonable also seemed to me that the nut width is smaller on the Wildwoods i've seen but i could be wrong. Nothing like playing the banjo and see which one talks to you, try not to leave that one at the store.

BDCA - Posted - 06/06/2013:  16:45:57

Thanks for everyone's help! I ended up with a Bart Reiter Custom Tubaphone, which got lost in the mail and showed up an hour before I had to leave for the airport, BUT out  of the case, it sounded great, and the woods and workmanship is superb. I did try an internal resonator Reiter at the Folk Shop, but it didn't knock my socks off and it would have blown my budget.

I bought the 2001  Custom Tubaphone at a fair price and it also came with a brand new Superior case.

I can't wait to get home and start practicing. I'm confident I'll be up to speed for the recording sessions scheduled for the summer.

I'll be down in Chapel Hill in a couple of weeks and will have my recorder charged up and ready to go.

Thanks again!!

Bob