dgarrioch - Posted - 04/21/2013:  17:08:56

Hi Jen, I am in the same boat as you. I am wanting to play a jam but am terrified as my skill level is not even close to yours yet.

I am finally biting the bullet and going to take my banjo to one of our local jams. I don't plan on going anywhere near the stage!

My plan is to sit near the back of the room, banjo mute on, and see if I can just vamp along quietly. I don't even know if I'll worry about chord changes the first time, or just see if I can keep time.

Your playing sounds great and  if you can get over your nerves I think you would do great at a jam.

You don't have to sit in on every song, maybe just a couple to settle your nerves the first time.

From then on, each subsequent visit should get easier for you.

You may even meet a guitar or mandolin player that lives close to you and  is feeling the same way you are!

You could get together and practice your playing.

It's amazing that in life many times the only thing standing in our way is ourselves!!!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:28:06

Jen--

If you want to be a full participant in jamming, your efforts would probably be better spent  elsewhere that on that high break to "Shuckin'...". Identify simpler stuff, work on getting it smooth and up to speed, and work on mixing it up. No offense intended, but that high break is stop-and-go, and way slower than anyone would want to play that tune. You need confidence and continuity, backup and simple, multipurpose licks and phrases that you can drop in in a variety of situations. Get that happening, and you'll probably be able to come back to the "STC" break later and nail it with much less effort than you're putting into it now. E-mail me if you'd like to discuss this further.

BTW, one of the best things I ever read on BHO was the comment (I don't remember by whom or to whom), "You've got it wrong. You don't get good so you can go to jams. You go to jams so you can get good."

--Ira

Rich Weill - Posted - 04/21/2013:  18:43:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

BTW, one of the best things I ever read on BHO was the comment (I don't remember by whom or to whom), "You've got it wrong. You don't get good so you can go to jams. You go to jams so you can get good."

---

Thanks, Ira.  That was me (see here).  It was in response to a thread Wayne Erbsen began, looking for jamming topics BHO members thought he should cover in a bluegrass banjo jam skills book he was writing.  In fact, Wayne kindly asked my permission to use the line in his book.

Given the flak I've taken in this forum for some of my posts, I couldn't let Ira's kind words go unsourced.

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:03:12

I can't get things "up to speed" yet. I play at the speed I play at which isn't fast enough. My whole thing was just wondering how long it takes for people to get up to speed. If I can't play anything up to speed, I'm at a loss for bringing a banjo to a jam.
What simpler tunes would you recommend? I have sound files for the world to hear that probably go from simpler to not as simple and they are all at around the same speed based on the month/year. I'm willing to practice and spend time. I don't want to make a fool out of myself playing something that should be faster. So, I don't go to jams with my banjo but sit in my living room.

Ira, it says you have been playing since '73. That's forty years. All I want to know is how long did you or anyone else play before they were up to speed/good. I've been playing two years. I'm happy enough with where I am. I'm just wondering for those of you who have been playing for a while and are good, how long did this take? How this turned into my avoidance of jams is a mystery to me. This totally was not my intent. I appreciate the advice to go to them.

So, can those of you who call yourselves expert/professional let me know how long that took?

Edited by - JMalmsteen on 04/21/2013 19:16:33

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:42:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen



 I'm willing to practice and spend time. I don't want to make a fool out of myself playing something that should be faster. So, I don't go to jams with my banjo but sit in my living room.





So, can those of you who call yourselves expert/professional let me know how long that took?

---

Why would you think jamming at your current ability would be 'making a fool of yourself'? This is music, not some kind of contest Jen. Jams are a microcosm of real life, where everyone has different skills and abilities and where its not always a level playing field. Part of the reason you should jam is to learn. Having better players around, as well as players who are rank beginners, or in between, is just how jams typically work.  To someone whos a rank beginner, you may be one of the banjo players who they think is fantastic, just as you think the other players are so much better. Its all based on the perspectives of the players in the jam. Im sure you wouldn't want some who just started the banjo to think they were being 'foolish' for attempting to be in the same room as you. So why would you think this way about yourself and the jam?

Speaking for myself as someone whos been playing close to 40 years, I can honestly say that I really didn't start  getting what i would call 'good' until I had been playing about 5 years. But as soon as I reached that plateau it dawned on me how much more I needed to improve on. The next 5 years were even more important for my development I think. But you'll probably get folks who'll say their learning curve was different than mine. Everyone learns differently and at different rates. One thing I can say with certainty is jamming was a vital part of my development as a player. Jams and playing in bands made me both a musician and banjo player. 

I was told back in my youth to find 'better musicians than me' to jam with so I could learn. It was also told to me to 'get your banjo out and play'. This means playing back-up first as a jam skill, and then eventually soloing. As Ira pointed out, you can jam with licks thrown together and whatever you are comfortable with as improvised solos. No one can be expected to start out with full blown Scruggs solos up to faster tempos as a jam 'pre-requisite'. This is not how it works in the real world.

Most, experienced players here on the BHO who have heard your sound files can tell you've made excellent progress and that your potential is wide open. But I'll say again you are wasting valuable time over-thinking what jamming is and your place in it. Playing something..anything, in jams if preferable to playing nothing. All this psychoanalyzing wont replace time behind your banjo, in jams. You'll look back one day and be glad you were in those jams,learning, making friends and having a ball playing banjo. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 04/21/2013 19:47:19

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:46:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

BTW, one of the best things I ever read on BHO was the comment (I don't remember by whom or to whom), "You've got it wrong. You don't get good so you can go to jams. You go to jams so you can get good."

---

Thanks, Ira.  That was me (see here). 

---

That was a great comment Rich.

Rich Weill - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:59:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen

I can't get things "up to speed" yet. I play at the speed I play at which isn't fast enough.

But you're speaking about complete arrangements.  I'm sure you can vamp up to speed.  I suspect you can play a forward roll over the chord progression up to speed.  That's enough to start playing backup in a jam.

WildJimbo - Posted - 04/21/2013:  19:59:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen



All I want to know is how long did you or anyone else play before they were up to speed/good.



So, can those of you who call yourselves expert/professional let me know how long that took?

---

I started playing with a band less than a year after I started.  Was I any good?  Not really, but I got better; being in the group forced me to get better.

I played my first contest at 8 months.  How'd I do?  I placed 8th out of 22 players. 

Here's a recording of me in 1979... nope, it's not great, but it didn't matter.  The crowd sure seemed to like it. :)

Foggy Mountain Breakdown - Me from 1979

GlennM - Posted - 04/21/2013:  21:30:35

Well you know your a banjo player when some one pays you to stop playing. :)

bAJNo - Posted - 04/22/2013:  00:06:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich Weill

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen

I can't get things "up to speed" yet. I play at the speed I play at which isn't fast enough.

---

But you're speaking about complete arrangements.  I'm sure you can vamp up to speed.  I suspect you can play a forward roll over the chord progression up to speed.  That's enough to start playing backup in a jam.

This is the point right here. If you can play decent, tasteful backup - which doesn't need to be played at top speed but simply in time with everyone else - then you will be much nearer your goal of being a banjo player than by practicing breaks to a handful of songs that may or may not be played at a jam.  

overhere - Posted - 04/22/2013:  02:15:02

I think the real problem is not so much playing but the confidence thing. Each person has a different confidence level. When I first started I knew zero about picking banjo except because I played guitar that timing rhythm and tempo is at play. I was fortunate to have as a friend a world class rhythm guitar player when I first picked up that banjo. His rhythm and ability pulled my fingers along. And as someone mentioned above, “other instruments can fill in the bare spots” which he did so well. I knew nothing about rolls or anything like tabs or such but because of him I never felt like a loser. My teachers were listening to records and the radio and trying to copy what I heard. His guitar work propped me up. Only when we lost him at a young age unfortunately did I realize I needed to learn how to play the banjo.
My brother in law had a long time country band but I had trouble playing with them as their rhythm patterns were not the same as that guitar player. A man who played harmonica with the Harmona Cats…(famous old time Harmonica Band) showed me phrasing techniques. After I learned that phrasing is more important then just learning rolls did I begin to fit in with them. Knowing that the melody notes are inside the chords from guitar playing I didn’t have to go far to find them. To play high or low is a personal preference to the sound you want yourself, unless of course you’re trying to sound like the someone else who did it. I believe it was Ron Block who explained (and showed how) he does a lot of low stuff for his preference. I play Dixie low and high and some play it all high up.
I’ve been listening to bluegrass a long long time and to me some of the best bluegrass is not how loud or fancy a picker is but more how the whole band blends as a unit…ie The Johnson Mountain Boys and others like Big Country Bluegrass. Listen to how these great banjo players just blend so perfectly.
So some of the answer is not how fancy but how clean your playing is first then its said, “the cleaner you play the fancier it sounds”.

archtop717 - Posted - 04/22/2013:  02:34:56

Its your passion for playing the Banjo that makes you a player, not how accomplished you are.  You have that, and that's all that matters.  That passion is tranfered to your audience everytime you play.  It could be to an audience, a Jam or your family, its all good.  It sounds great, keep pickin !

Ybanjo - Posted - 04/22/2013:  06:20:25

There are tons of bluegrass tunes that sound great played slow. Our group plays "There is a Time" much slower than most others, and it really sounds great. We get lots of compliments on it. I also play "Doug's Tune" slow (and with some syncopation), and it sounds great. Even "John Henry" (my arrangement) sounds good played slow. I agree with the others that say to pick some tunes that you can play at your speed, and do pretty well. Don't worry about what others think. Tell'em you're gonna slow it down because you're just getting into this banjo thing! We do that all the time in our group. Especially when we have a new tune. Some of us are faster than others. Quite often we even change tempo during the song when we get to someone that is slower. No problem! Backup changes tempo very easily, and will follow your lead, whatever the speed.

I still think you should talk around the jam session and see if the there are a couple of others that might want to meet at a different time/place with no pressure. You would be doing the others a favor as well.

Oh, one other thing that you might find interesting.... The other day we watched a bluegrass group playing and somebody from the crowd got up and pulled out a banjo.  He played two tunes with the group then sat down.  They played "John Hardy", and he did a really good job!  After the performance, I went up an talked with him (mostly because he had an old Gibson and I wanted to see it).   In the conversation, he said he has only been playing 4 years.  I told him I have been playing for 3 years and nowhere near as good as he was.  I can barely get through "John Hardy" without horrible mistakes.  He told me that he improved drastically between 3 and 4 years.  He said he couldn't hardly play a good tune at 3 years.  His words gave me a great deal of hope, and to be honest, I am seeing a real improvement right now.  I find that I'm playing more to the melody and tune rather than play the notes.  Backup is getting a lot easier too.  Easier and more comfortable to improvise on the spot.  Still a long way to go, but I can at least see that I'm moving in the right direction.  And that's good enough for me!

Edited by - Ybanjo on 04/22/2013 06:28:38

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/22/2013:  06:37:52

Jen--

As banjophobic and Rich Weill suggest, for most of us there is no one point at which we're "up to speed". Instead, at every step of the way we're up to speed on some stuff for some purposes, but not on other stuff for other purposes. For me, speed has always been a challenge. If I'm playing mostly straight-ahead bluegrass material at moderate tempos, with a few faster ones thrown in, yeah, I'm up to speed. But if I'm trying to play my most difficult arrangements of everything (my counterpart to your "Shuckin'... efforts), maybe I'm not up to speed. If I'm trying to fill in with a band that likes to play everything at 170 BPM, I'd have to say I'm not up to speed in that setting.



I was trying to perform when I'd been playing banjo for just a couple of years, but it sure wasn't anything I'd want to listen to now. When I was in college I played in a band on campus (1977-1980), and I was roughly OK, I guess, though my playing had some serious flaws at that time. I still feel I'm behind the curve, but that's a personal matter as much as a musical one.

And thanks for the quote, Rich. I've used it with a lot of my students.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/22/2013:  08:38:22

Some great advice from Ira, Rich, John and others.  Let me chime in with my own jamming experience.

I started playing in 1962, performed solo as an old-timey banjo player and singer while in college and law school, switched to bluegrass in the early '70s, and was in a busy NYC-area band for 5 years in the late '70s.  

When that band broke up, I joined another band for a very short time and then, for all practical purposes, I stopped playing.  I didn't jam, didn't go to festivals, just played from time to time around the house.

In 1995, thanks to my wife egging me on, I started to get back into serious banjo playing.  You might think that with all my prior playing experience it would have been easy, but it wasn't.  After so long, of course I had to work on my chops, especially those spaces between the notes, but I also had to re-learn - and in a lot of cases learn for the first time - the essential bluegrass banjo player's repertoire.  Most of what I could play was what my band had played, and to say we had an eclectic selection of songs would be an understatement.  So you can imagine how unsure and timid I was when I started going to jams and encountered some very good banjo players who really knew their Scruggs, Monroe and Jimmy Martin.  I was never a hot licks kind of player - to this day my style is pretty straightforward and simple - but 15 years ago, early on in my return to jamming, I was very self-conscious of my shortcomings, both real and perceived. 

But without exception, as Rich said earlier, the best players (banjo and others) were also the most encouraging.  I started going to festivals and to IBMA, and again, the best players I picked with were the ones who gave me the most support.  I will admit to sometimes wondering whether they meant what they said or were just being nice, but the more I picked with them, the better I got to know them (and the better I got, too), and my foolish insecurity disappeared.  Not only that, the more I jammed, the more I learned and the more comfortable I became with my own style.

And so that brings me to yesterday, where at my regular Sunday jam, in the back room of Paddy Reilly's before we got started, one of the other banjo players - a very fine one - started playing Reno's "Follow the Leader."   I've never been able to play the single-string part of that tune at the "correct" speed - that is, what Reno recorded it at.   I can play it reasonably well - sometimes - at around 128 bpm, which is pretty distant from Reno.  But since Josh, the other banjo player, was playing it at my speed, I started playing it, too, and we decided that when we were both warmed up one of us would call the tune.  And about an hour later, Josh looked at me and said, shall we try that?  So he kicked it off - slightly slower than what we'd been playing earlier!

Josh played it really well, single-string and all, but I seriously screwed up the high single-string part.  But it was so much fun to play that song in public.  My mistakes were irrelevant.   Josh won't be there next Sunday but I will call "Follow the Leader" again and hopefully come closer (and now I have an incentive to work on it during the week).

That is what jamming is all about.  The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  There's no reason to be self-conscious about your playing.  The more you jam, the faster you'll improve.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: You need to get out of the house!

RioStat - Posted - 04/22/2013:  08:56:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen

 

I know this might seem ridiculous, but I haven't experienced a "bad" banjo player at the jams I have gone to. They are all "real" banjo players. You could take any one of them and throw them in a band. I'm truly impressed by this. There are so many talented banjo players out there. Even when we see bands perform, I can't believe how good they are. So, that's where I'm getting the, "I had better be able to play really well before I bring a banjo" thing from, since this is all I have seen, great banjo players (okay, I think once I saw a not so amazing banjo player at a jam, but that was the exception). So, I'll play mandolin or guitar at a jam, have even messed with an upright bass since I can play electric bass/fiddle, but banjo has been the instrument I have this hang up about and the thing I practice most, go figure.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Jen, these banjo pickers you describe above probably don't feel that they "have arrived yet" either!

 

---

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/22/2013:  10:20:22

Jen, I think you're getting by now that however long it took some of us to become banjo players has nothing to do with how long it will take you. My experience seems similar to others here.  I started playing banjo for real (taking lessons) in the spring of 1972 at age 21.  I came to banjo having played guitar since I was 13.  I was pretty much a chord player and basic pattern finger-picker. Not a rock and blues lead player at all. BUT -- I had good timing and a good ear. I could figure out the chords to most songs, understood capos and transposing, and -- thanks to Happy Traum's transcriptions in the James Taylor songbook -- could read tablature. I also came to banjo lessons already knowing the three important chord shapes (having found them myself by applying my guitar knowledge) and had developed my own rough two-finger style.  But because I was not a lead guitar player and a less than average finger-picker, I had no idea whether I could actually learn banjo.

I was surprised -- as was my first teacher -- when in my first week, I was playing my first lesson -- Earl's Breakdown! -- at about 3/4 speed.  I took to banjo really quickly.  I 'got it' in a way I had never got guitar.  In a few weeks my teacher (who it turns out had not really been playing all that long) sent me to his teacher (Jorge Strunz, who went on to become the renowned Latin jazz guitarist in the duo Strunz and Farah).  Fortunately, I had no social life (meaning girlfriend) in the summer of 72, and was working only part-time so I had plenty of time to hang around my apartment and practice banjo.  I also went to a weekly Sunday afternoon jam at the Red Fox Inn in Bethesda, Maryland (the original home of the Seldom Scene).  I soaked up everything I could.  In the 72-73 school year, I was already playing banjo in a loose and not very good country-rock band on campus (University of Maryland).  My playing was basic, not flashy, but up to speed.  I didn't play in a good bluegrass/Americana band until 1979. When a subsequent version of that band played its last in the summer of 1987, I did the same as Arnie: set the banjo aside and played around the house or with friends only a few times a year.

I started playing regularly again in 2007 when we needed to add more material in the Irish-rock band in which I was playing bass.  As Arnie described, coming back to regular playing after a 20-year layoff is hard.  Being in my late 50s didn't make it any easier.  But it's been fun teaching myself fiddle tunes on the banjo -- because our fiddle player keeps suggesting tunes that no one else has tabbed.  In 2010, I went to a local jam in my town for the first time. Met a guitar player there who liked my playing and recruited me into the bluegrass band he was forming.  That's Buck Stone and the Bucktones, who you can see in the videos linkable through my profile.

Another way my experience is similar to Arnie's is that I've never really learned lots of traditional bluegrass material.  I've always focused on learning the material my bands do. And when I encounter songs or tunes in jams, I mainly improvise, because I've never had occasion or reason to learn them or work up arrangements.  And I'm still better and faster when I stick to my version of basic, straight-ahead Scruggs style with a touch of melodic.  A lot of my attempts at up and down the neck melodic-chromatic runs end in train wrecks. But the ride is fun while it lasts!

Arnie: I look forward to meeting you at Paddy Reilly's later this year. Accept my friend request and we can exchange messages.  Thanks.

Jen: Please excuse the ramble.  Hope you got something from it.

Roll Player - Posted - 04/22/2013:  10:33:11

Jen, I listened to a lot of your sound files and I thought you did very well on the gospel tunes. It just seemed you had a "feel" for those tunes, and weren't just playing memorized tabs.

Progress doesn't come at a steady rate. You can get stuck at a plateau for a long time and then suddenly advance very quickly to a higher level, so don't get discouraged.

I started playing guitar when I was 12 and played banjo (or tried to) from 14 to 21 and gave up on it for a couple of decades. I never got good during that first attempt, but I was able to build on (and correct) what I had learned then when I came back to the banjo in '88. It took me a year to work up the confidence to play in public, and probably at least a couple more years before I was much of a banjo player.

You've had some great advice in this thread. Good luck on the journey!

Possom - Posted - 04/22/2013:  11:08:03

Jen I don't think there is a time limit. I'm by no means what I call good. I started in August of 07 been at it ever since. I was a banjo player the moment I picked it up. That POS banjo that came in the mail was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Fast fwd to now and I'm still eat up with banjo....but also as a whole bluegrass music. In between then and now I went through the awkward stage that you speak of not really good enough for a band but not quite a rank beginner either. Only way to outgrow this stage is to just play. Leave the man do and guitar at home and go jam ON THE BANJO. If you blow a break so what its just a jam. I Blew one big time yesterday on stage but nobody cared. Nobody walked up afterwards and said "dude you completely trashed that up the neck on theme time" Play till your callouses peel then make some some new ones under those. ;)

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/22/2013:  12:31:59

I never get tired of posting links to this Alan Munde workshop/lesson on backup.

youtube.com/watch?v=xtsC8MjvkB8

In the first half of the video, he plays backup and solos to Nine Pound Hammer (and messes up once, and tells the guitar player to start again). Then he starts explaining at 2:20.

His basic theory for backup is three parts:  roll the chord, move the chord, fill the hole

The most important thing for playing at jams is get basic backup up to speed. I think it's fine to shake your head "no" for solos until you're really ready. You could play all night with variations of the backup that Alan demonstrates in this video. Plus a bit of vamping. My backup is not much more sophisticated than this.

I also think that for backup and jamming purposes, it's more important that you get some basic rolls and licks up to speed -- rather than learning songs and tunes.  I could be wrong.  But I think it's good to play rolls over and over, even in the 8-note patterns that are not really rolls and that may not be repeated that extensively in actual solos. I'm talking about the kind of stuff that players call "G noise" and "C noise" -- stuff that you play against chords that isn't melody- or tune-specific but that works in all sorts of situations. What you might call "noodling" when you're just sitting around playing nothing.  That's the kind of stuff you can be playing in the background and it's the kind of stuff that can help build up your speed and give you the building blocks for tunes.

EMarkM - Posted - 04/22/2013:  13:55:56

I haven't even started yet and I've learned heaps from this thread alone!

I can relate a lot of it to my many years in bands as a guitarist and bass player.

Jen, just enjoy :)

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/22/2013:  16:26:06

I was in school today and had a bunch of kids in my room. Of course I had bluegrass playing before they were there. I had lowered it, and one of them turned it up and started talking about hoe downs. I then realized, "it's a banjo." I'm making myself way too nuts over something that is supposed to be a fun instrument. A lot of this is a psychological thing. I'm used to being good at what I do, law or physics, or math. I'm not used to being a novice with things I'm passionate about. It's been so long since I was a beginning guitar player. I need to let that go and just roll with it. It's amazing how you guys can see things that I can't.

Edited by - JMalmsteen on 04/22/2013 16:31:20

Ybanjo - Posted - 04/22/2013:  16:37:18

I can fully relate to that! My group consists of a retired engineer/business creator (me), a retired lawyer, a retired college physics professor, a (semi)retired sales manager, etc. All of us have "made it" in life by being the best we could be, and none of use are used to not being the "best" at anything. It was a real shocker for all of us to realize that we are starting from scratch, and won't reach the top any time soon, if ever! We're now a little more humbled and see where we really stand. Don't let those misconceptions stand in your way. Just get out there and do your best, but mostly have fun doing it!

jdeluke137 - Posted - 04/22/2013:  17:12:27

Jen, I've been playing just over two years and I've been taking lessons for about a year.  The first thing my teacher did was teach me to vamp and then "forced" me to go to a local jam where he sat next to me and told me the  chords when I couldn't figure out what was going on.  After a few months at the jam he turned to me and said "kick off Cripple Creek".  I proceeded to stumble through a slow version of a break, while everybody played along slowly, and then others took a break at the same speed, and then they had me finish it out.  Afterwards everybody told me I did great - which wasn't true but was encouraging.  I still go to the jam, vamp along, and very occasionally fumble through a break,  I'm a regular now, and everybody is always nice and encouraging even though I'm not very not very good.

So take your banjo, vamp along, and enjoy yourself!

My teacher, who has been teaching for over 40 years, says it takes 10 years of regular practice to master any instrument - but he says not having it mastered shouldn't keep you from enjoying it!m

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/22/2013:  18:53:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen



I was in school today and had a bunch of kids in my room. Of course I had bluegrass playing before they were there. I had lowered it, and one of them turned it up and started talking about hoe downs. I then realized, "it's a banjo." I'm making myself way too nuts over something that is supposed to be a fun instrument. A lot of this is a psychological thing. I'm used to being good at what I do, law or physics, or math. I'm not used to being a novice with things I'm passionate about. It's been so long since I was a beginning guitar player. I need to let that go and just roll with it. It's amazing how you guys can see things that I can't.

---

 Good point. Most of my students are adult beginners, and they tend to be very aware of how much time they have (in the day, or in their lives in general), and they want to see results. Contrast with the way kids approach an instrument. They explore it without much thought of a goal. They generally don't pay attention to how good or bad they sound (and let's face it, it can sometimes be pretty bad), but just play.

John Steele - Posted - 04/23/2013:  00:30:15

Years ago I read this story about two American sociologists who were sent to Africa to live amongst a tribe and participate in all the normal functions of daily life in that tribe. 

They were invited to a large community gathering where there was alot of dancing and singing.  When the African people invited the American scientists to dance and sing with them, they were hesitant.  "I'm not really a singer. I can't sing" said one.  The Africans were completely puzzled by this.  "You can talk, so you must be able to sing.   You can walk, so you must be able to dance."

The American scientists explained that, where they came from, singing and dancing was something that you had to prove a certain proficiency with before you did it in public.  The Africans were even more puzzled by this train of thought.

They explained to their North American friends that Singing and Dancing (and playing music) was something that Everyone did, as a normal function of living the human experience. Without it, there is a void in your life.

The conclusion was:   Music is far, far too precious and important to be strictly left in the hands of the professionals.  Do your thing at your own pace.  If it's meaningful to you, then it's been a good use of your time.

- John

Edited by - John Steele on 04/23/2013 00:33:58

Banjophobic - Posted - 04/23/2013:  07:48:44

quote:

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Originally posted by John Steele

 

Years ago I read this story about two American sociologists who were sent to Africa to live amongst a tribe and participate in all the normal functions of daily life in that tribe. 

They were invited to a large community gathering where there was alot of dancing and singing.  When the African people invited the American scientists to dance and sing with them, they were hesitant.  "I'm not really a singer. I can't sing" said one.  The Africans were completely puzzled by this.  "You can talk, so you must be able to sing.   You can walk, so you must be able to dance."

The American scientists explained that, where they came from, singing and dancing was something that you had to prove a certain proficiency with before you did it in public.  The Africans were even more puzzled by this train of thought.

They explained to their North American friends that Singing and Dancing (and playing music) was something that Everyone did, as a normal function of living the human experience. Without it, there is a void in your life.

The conclusion was:   Music is far, far too precious and important to be strictly left in the hands of the professionals.  Do your thing at your own pace.  If it's meaningful to you, then it's been a good use of your time.

- John

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Thats a great post John-

Mopick - Posted - 04/23/2013:  13:04:06

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

 

After seeing you keep clinging to that mandolin in various posts like this, I'll throw out some 'tough love' for ya Jen-. If you want to become a 'banjo player', then clinging to the mandolin as a security blanket wont get you any closer to the goal. How long does it take one to become a jam banjo player? That would be as soon as the person starts playing the banjo in jams-all kidding aside. How good a jamming banjo player you are depends on how dedicated you are in repeatedly  jamming , i.e. your dedication to it. Hows playing a mandolin all the time in jams going to further you skills as a jamming banjoist ?

Taking this further, as in a band, requires you to spend even more time jamming with the banjo and band practices with it. You do not have to be 'great' to be in a band. But being in band, even if its just a local mediocre one, will teach you how to be a banjo player. Its on the job training. Jamming is also invaluable training and avoiding it will only cheat you out of the learning, plus its fun. 

You either want to be a banjo player or you don't-period. I don't believe in coddling my students who profess to want to be a good banjo player. In the end, all the hard work has to come form you. The intestinal fortitude to tough it out and put in the 'required' sweat is what it takes for anyone to get good on any instrument. So, as I tell my students (lovingly of course), get off your keester and jam and get in a band. 

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I want to be a banjo player.  I sold my mandolin and I haven't touched a guitar in 4 years, but I still do own a couple.  I have a bass guitar I haven't touched in years I'm thinking about selling.  I realized that at my age I have to spend all my available time on the banjo.

Mopick - Posted - 04/23/2013:  13:10:02

quote:

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Originally posted by JMalmsteen

 

I think I'm just going to have to risk sounding not as good as the good guys and go. We have broken off into other groups, but with my mandolin. So, there has been more than one circle, but the group I went with, they were all awesome.



Anyway, here's the second half of this song, upper break. This is where I am in life now on banjo. I'm happy enough. I now know that the banjo has more than five frets. That's something I didn't realize for a good year or more. Hah.

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That's a SUWEEEET sounding banjo and you have good tone.

banjonoah - Posted - 04/23/2013:  21:50:50

Your a banjo player when your wife gets annoyed by your banjo obsession

ike449 - Posted - 04/24/2013:  01:57:01

How long does it take? How long is a string? Take your time and practice. If you can't play it clean slow, speed will not make sound better. Banjo players always want to play fast when they first start out. Take your time and play it clean. Learn the bounce. ie: thumb alternating roll.

Ike

raburns - Posted - 04/24/2013:  05:23:41

Research has shown that it takes about 2000 hr of playing to become competent on an instrument.  After that its a matter of ability and talent.

diagonally - Posted - 04/24/2013:  09:02:50

quote:

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Originally posted by JMalmsteen

 

I have been at this for two years.  I'm wondering how long it takes to become a "banjo player," i.e. someone who can play banjo in a band or even a jam.  Is five years reasonable? I know some people take naturally to this kind of thing and can become proficient in the matter of a few months, but under normal circumstances if there is such a thing.  I'll post an example of two years in. I recorded this first take after practicing this maybe ten times through, so it's an accurate indication, nothing polished here. At the moment, if I go to a jam, I just bring a mandolin because the banjo players at the jam I go to, sound like "banjo players."  I'm not complaining.  Worst case scenario, I'm a guitar player, so I can always just play guitar, been doing that for most of my life so it's like breathing, but I really do like this banjo thing.  My long term goal with this is to play at jams and bluegrass festivals when I retire in twenty years.

(This is partially in response to reading here that you shouldn't play certain songs if you can't play them up to speed. I can't play them up to speed yet.  We've had the speed discussion, and there is the idea that if you can't play it, don't. I'm wondering how long the "being able to play it" usually takes people.  So, in my head, I think people feel that you shouldn't bring a banjo to a jam unless you can play maybe 70% as well as Earl, from what I've read here)

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I like to think leaning to play is a process and I try to enjoy playing, at the level I’m at.

On a more fundamental level maybe the real problem you’re raising is more one of “attempting to make the player fit the jam” rather than “making the jam fit the player”.

I tend to find that if you’re not currently a 200 bpm banjo player  finding appropriate jam opportunities is challenging. Even jams aimed at novice, beginner or even intermediate level players they tend to attract more advanced players. This ok except but it can lead to speed creep.

Living in Canada at one point I tried to take some French as a second language classes and I ran into similar issue. I’d signed up for “beginner” classes. One aimed at people with no preexisting French and inevitably you would get a significant number of more advanced students asking to take the beginner level class. This would be ok except the teacher had difficulty keeping the pace at level appropriate for et beginner level students and would end up teaching to the level of the more advanced students.

So I personally think if you can pick up the banjo and play a few notes you are a “banjo player”.

I think the real challenge, whether you’re  a 50 bpm, 100 bpm, 150 bpm or 200 bpm player is finding others who want to jam at or near you’re speed whatever that is, so you can you can have the jamming experience at whatever level you play at.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 04/24/2013:  10:41:03

quote:

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Originally posted by raburns

 

Research has shown that it takes about 2000 hr of playing to become competent on an instrument.  After that its a matter of ability and talent.

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I don't think the number of hours means very much.  The local jams are full of people that show up every week and they still can't play much because they haven't took the time to be objective about their playing.  These people have logged more time than that and it hasn't done them much good.

It takes focused practice with the correct intent; mindless noodling and playing songs with the incorrect timing isn't going to help no matter how many hours you do it.  That's why there are so many on here that have been playing for a decade or five years and still can't play a decent Cripple Creek.

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 04/24/2013 10:44:12

medenholm - Posted - 04/24/2013:  11:50:17

Hi Jen,

I think you played that song great. Speed will come. Do what your doing and work on getting the note clean and the rhythm correct. I'm about the same as far as experience and I'd be happy with the song you played. Now just play it over and over until you get it to the speed you want. I think we all get frustrated at times. Put the banjo down and do something else for a while and come back to it. I really just get a real relaxation out of playing. I get away from all the world and love that part of it.keep pickin, your doing great. I  seam to do well until I find the tripping note. I wish you the best. I think your right on track and that song was great

Mike

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/24/2013:  14:14:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by diagonally

I tend to find that if you’re not currently a 200 bpm banjo player  finding appropriate jam opportunities is challenging. Even jams aimed at novice, beginner or even intermediate level players they tend to attract more advanced players. This ok except but it can lead to speed creep.

Living in Canada at one point I tried to take some French as a second language classes and I ran into similar issue. I’d signed up for “beginner” classes. One aimed at people with no preexisting French and inevitably you would get a significant number of more advanced students asking to take the beginner level class. This would be ok except the teacher had difficulty keeping the pace at level appropriate for et beginner level students and would end up teaching to the level of the more advanced students.

So I personally think if you can pick up the banjo and play a few notes you are a “banjo player”.

I think the real challenge, whether you’re  a 50 bpm, 100 bpm, 150 bpm or 200 bpm player is finding others who want to jam at or near you’re speed whatever that is, so you can you can have the jamming experience at whatever level you play at.

---

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but almost nobody plays at 200 bpm.  160 - 170 bpm is the upper limit (as heard on their recordings) of even the fastest players, like Earl, Doug Dillard, Raymond Fairchild, Don Reno.  Earl's 1950 recording of "FMB" is around 164-166 bpm. Dillard recorded "Hickory Hollow" at around 168 bpm.  Reno recorded "Follow the Leader" at around 144 bpm.  

The Guinness speed record for the banjo is something like 208 bpm, set by either Todd Taylor or Johnny Butten.  I don't think it's likely that the jam players you've encountered are anywhere close to that level.

Please understand that I intend no disrespect to you.  There's a lot of confusion and misinformation in the recreational picker bluegrass world about how to use a metronome and how to determine the speed you're playing at, and I hate to see it perpetuated.   Banjophobic and Dave Magram have made some helpful posts about this.

And now, b​ack to your regular programming!

Arnie 

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/24/2013:  16:11:39

Good points here...
Randy, I couldn't imagine selling my mandolin or guitars and just playing banjo. I don't know how many people here feel this way, but I admire the bluegrass guys who can play all instruments. That's my goal. Guitar is there, mandolin is okay, banjo is a work in progress and fiddle is a work in progress. Banjo has been the most challenging and also the most fun. I thought it would come instantly because of guitar. I was wrong. Hah. Fiddle is my second favorite. It's fun having the chance to play with the kids at school in the orchestra. They get a kick out of stuff like that and our music teachers are great.
I'm okay with playing at a speed I can play cleanly at. With electric guitar, where I play speed metal ala Yngwie Malmsteen, I used to click the metronome up, then back, then two clicks. I haven't done this with banjo because so much comes from feel, which for me gets lost when I play faster just to play faster.
I have been playing along with Earl at a much slower speed and I would rather be able to do that then play fast. It will happen at some point. I'm in no rush and I am happy being able to play slow Earl :)
The idea of 2000 hours seems like a nice idea for a goal. I would love to keep track and deduct from that.

It's also nice seeing how many people have been playing for decades. Banjos are fun instruments.

brummeister1 - Posted - 04/24/2013:  18:37:11

Your sound file sounded good to me. Just keep on pickin n never forget the grinning, because that latter part is the most important imo or what's the point 

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/24/2013:  18:40:16

When I play faster, something gets lost in translation, which is why I just play slower. Has this happened to anyone while you were learning? Here's an example.

(I just went out and got some computer speakers so I can hear my metronome over the banjo as well as backing tracks over the banjo...whoo...hoo....yay for metronomes plus loud banjos)

Edited by - JMalmsteen on 04/24/2013 18:45:14

Lonesome Road Blues

brummeister1 - Posted - 04/24/2013:  18:45:59

Are your hands/fingers/muscles tense at all when you play? That's one of my biggest problems right now. 

Can u post another now that you can hear your metronome and backing tracks? 

Edited by - brummeister1 on 04/24/2013 18:46:59

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/24/2013:  18:51:17

I always thought posting with a metronome or backing track would be cheating :)
Well, the timing improves!! Hah. I have to get up at five so the banjo is away. I could record something when I get home from school tomorrow.

brummeister1 - Posted - 04/24/2013:  18:53:42

There's a way to cheat? Tell me more   Do you have headphones? That's what I use, so no one else can know I am a cheater.

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/24/2013:  19:21:11

I meant posting a sound file with a metronome clicking as cheating....my timing on that mp3 is without a metronome as are all of my posted sound files. I'm not trying to hide anything if my timing is off.

overhere - Posted - 04/25/2013:  02:01:16

many professionals record with what is called "click tracks"...soon as I find example I will post. or if anyone else can beat me to it most welcome.

steve davis - Posted - 04/25/2013:  03:56:43

Click tracks are great.You can prefigure exactly how much time to fill and easily splice in fixes.

I think any time spent playing the banjo helps you,whether it's focused in some way or just playing around for the fun of it.

I always played for just the fun of it and learned a lot.

It's called playing because it's fun to do.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/25/2013 04:00:34

Mopick - Posted - 04/25/2013:  08:10:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMalmsteen



Good points here...

Randy, I couldn't imagine selling my mandolin or guitars and just playing banjo. I don't know how many people here feel this way, but I admire the bluegrass guys who can play all instruments. That's my goal. Guitar is there, mandolin is okay, banjo is a work in progress and fiddle is a work in progress. Banjo has been the most challenging and also the most fun. I thought it would come instantly because of guitar. I was wrong. Hah. Fiddle is my second favorite. It's fun having the chance to play with the kids at school in the orchestra. They get a kick out of stuff like that and our music teachers are great.

I'm okay with playing at a speed I can play cleanly at. With electric guitar, where I play speed metal ala Yngwie Malmsteen, I used to click the metronome up, then back, then two clicks. I haven't done this with banjo because so much comes from feel, which for me gets lost when I play faster just to play faster.

I have been playing along with Earl at a much slower speed and I would rather be able to do that then play fast. It will happen at some point. I'm in no rush and I am happy being able to play slow Earl :)

The idea of 2000 hours seems like a nice idea for a goal. I would love to keep track and deduct from that.



It's also nice seeing how many people have been playing for decades. Banjos are fun instruments.

---

My big old fingers are too big for that little mando neck.  The mando was given to me anyway and it was a cheapo.  I was having a yard sale one day and a customer asked if I had any instruments for sale.  I said, "Just a minute," and ran in and got the mandolin and sold it on the spot.  Yeah, when I was a young whipper snapper like you I wanted to learn the Dobro, the mandolin, fiddle, flat pick guitar and banjo.   Then I put all the instruments away for a decade (wasted time).  When I turned 50 I got the banjo out from under the bed and made a commitment to learn Scruggs style.  Now I'm 54 and moving along.  I'm concentrating only on the banjo.

I wanted to ask you.  Are you taking  banjo lessons?  Are you teaching yourself?

Edited by - Mopick on 04/25/2013 08:11:41

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/25/2013:  08:28:18

Self-taught with a few lessons

Tim13 - Posted - 04/25/2013:  13:24:00

Well, for what it's worth, I've owned banjos for 5 years, almost to the day.  The first three years were local lessons, and self taught wandering.  Not that productive in the grand scheme of things.  The last two years have been lessons with a professional level picker, focusing on Scruggs.  Not "Scruggs style" as in 3 finger picking and rolling, but Scruggs the man, and his specific style.  This past week was sort of a little breakthrough for me.  I pulled up a couple of Flatt and Scruggs tunes I know well, and was able to play along with The Foggy Mountain Boys, leads and backup, without slowing the recordings down.  Granted, it was in my computer room, and not in front of a crowd, or while making a recording, so there was no outside pressure.  So for me, it has been 5 years to get to the point where I'm starting to get comfortable with the instrument, and the tempos that most jam pickers play.  It's really starting to get interesting now that I have a little bit of skill.

Tim

JMalmsteen - Posted - 04/25/2013:  15:45:14

Hey Tim,
That's awesome that you can play along with the album. I would be really happy with that after five years. It's still a lot of fun in a computer room. You should post something of you playing now. I just listened to your sound files from '10 and '12 and there is a definite progression.