Lenmonster - Posted - 03/11/2013:  18:59:34

Hi. So I'm a very novice player. Just started around Christmas with a Goodtime Classic open back. I'm doing all right...still trying to shape my picks! Anyway, here's the thing. I'm playing many of the tunes around 150-160bpm, but it seems like there is some magic place where all of a sudden the slow-seeming licks will sound like Scruggs style. I know it sounds weird, but the tunes don't sound as if you played them super speeded up, they'd actually sound right. Is there some magic tempo where all of a sudden all that stuff starts to provide some type of an aural illusion? For example, going through the very nice Foggy Mountain videos. I'm up through the first section, and play it at 180. But it sounds not like a slowed down version of foggy mountain. Even when the guy on the video is playing it, it doesn't sound like the real version slowed down, and every now and then he fires off the full speed version.

I hope this is clear, but it's been a mystery to me ever since I started playing.

The Pope - Posted - 03/11/2013:  19:06:01

If you're playing at 140-160 bpm, you're up with me & I've been playing for almost 50 years. I think you've got the tempos wrong if they still don't sound like Bluegrass to you because 160 bpm is like Earl or Ronnie McCoury - real fast! What tunes are you working on? PS: Welcome to the Banjo Hangout. What island are you on?

Lenmonster - Posted - 03/11/2013:  19:23:31

So this might be ignorant, but I guess maybe my problem is that the banjo transcriptions I have (I'm using Tony Trishka's stuff on Artistworks) has everything as 8th notes. But just listening, I'm not sure if really everything should be considered 16ths, and in that case, I'm then only playing at 85! But still, many of the runs magically seem to transform...for example, learning the first part of Foggy Mountain slowly, doing it perfectly, it doesn't sound like if speed it up, say at twice the speed and even more, that those licks are the same...

The US Minor Islands...heh...gotta fix that. A little too quick setting up the profile.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/11/2013:  19:25:50

I think Lemonster is counting four beats to the measure rather than two. So he's probably playing at what some of us (including myself and The Pope) would count as 75-80 BPM.

Welcome, Lemonster!

kmwaters - Posted - 03/11/2013:  19:49:44

Lenmonster - forget the numbers. Youtube has so many videos of Earl playing his various songs that you should get a feel for the best speed for a particular song. Then if you download the video and match it up to a metronome you can pretty much get an idea of the bpm's at which Earl played them. But in my mind, getting the syncopation of the song is key. As Earl said so many times, "it's all in the timing".

Banjophobic - Posted - 03/11/2013:  20:25:09

Yep, you are counting in 4/4/ time and at 1/2 the tempo you think you are. 

Tommy5 - Posted - 03/11/2013:  20:40:09

Yes if you start when Earl starts and finish when Earl finishes then your playing at the same speed as long as you are playing all of the notes but racing Earl is a good way to get fast and sloppy, slow and clean sounds much better.

JoeDownes - Posted - 03/12/2013:  02:21:46

There's nothing wrong with counting the way you do, it's just not the way bluegrass banjo players talk about tempo. Instead of counting all four beats like you do, they only count the strong beats 1 and 3, so they say FMB is 150 bpm, while you would say it's 300 bpm.

Try playing a song that's usually played quit slowly and play it with a bit of the swing rhythm typicall for slow bluegrass and it will sound like music at 80/160 bpm. I sometimes wonder why books and instructors often don't start off with songs that sound good when played slowly, instead of Crippled Creek.

stetix01 - Posted - 03/12/2013:  03:34:04

This is an excellent question.  I have experienced the very same thing.  I could never master the speed at which the tune "breaks" over into the cool scruggs sound.  I used to urge my instructor to explain this phenomena but he just said "here, just do it like this"  which never helped.

So I guess I'm just as curious so I hope someone answers the question he asked.

p.s. I too could only play FMB with the metronome cranked up to about 180 (which in essence was 90 bpm).  way away from where earl played it.

stetix01 - Posted - 03/12/2013:  03:41:03

This is an excellent question.  I have experienced the very same thing.  I could never master the speed at which the tune "breaks" over into the cool scruggs sound.  I used to urge my instructor to explain this phenomena but he just said "here, just do it like this"  which never helped.

So I guess I'm just as curious so I hope someone answers the question he asked.

p.s. I too could only play FMB with the metronome cranked up to about 180 (which in essence was 90 bpm).  way away from where earl played it.

al-f - Posted - 03/12/2013:  05:10:59

I'm thinkin kmwaters is closer to the head of why its not sounding right, listen to the song and try to play it the way you hear it except slower. if you ar eplaying with a metronome every note for us beginners is hit the same way and all you get is a steady stream of notes with no inflections. you could strum that banjo straight down hitting every string with the same force and speed and thats what it will sound like, but if you miss a string or 3 either on the top or bottom or middle, sturm an area harder than others or just a little faster you arent changing beats per minute but it sure will sound different,

Lenmonster - Posted - 03/12/2013:  05:34:39

Yes. If it's being counted with beats one and three...absolutely, I'm playing it at 85 to 90. The reason I'm bringing this up is that I've been watching lots of instructional videos...Tony Trishka's banjo school, which is part of ArtistWorks is great and I'm using that, but I also am going through the FMB lessons pinned here. The question centers mostly around the issue that I know I'm playing on tempo (slave to the metronome) and as close to possible mimicking the slower motion demos. In short, I sound like they do (as far as I can tell, and I've been a working musician for many years and a bass teacher, so I think I'm probably pretty close). But as soon as they demonstrate the same thing up to speed, it simply sounds different...completely different...than a speeded up version of the slowed down version. That's where my question is centering. Because I'm wondering if I play the exact same stuff and just keep methodically working the tempo, that it's eventually going to get there. Also, yes...a lot of the stuff I'm playing does sound like music, especially with a more swing feel on the down-tempo songs. Already doing my own arrangements of pop and rock tunes, too. But I'm kind of obsessed with being able to ultimately play Scruggs style. Thanks everyone!

phb - Posted - 03/12/2013:  06:13:16

When I learned "Farewell Blues" about a year ago I would play it at about 80 or 90 bpm and it wouldn't sound anything like the recording (which happened to be Sean Ray's version which was recorded at slow 100 bpm for practice purposes). Somehow there seemed to be very small variations in the timing and accentuation of the recording I just couldn't immitate. Where the recording sounded like a well rounded thing, I just produced lots of notes.

At the end of one practice session I played the tune at the 100 bpm of the recording. I played faster than I should have played and made lots of mistakes, sour notes, muted strings a.s.o. However, I suddenly could immitate the recording. I was just thinking about the notes that stood out in the recording and they did in my playing. I think it happened because I stopped thinking about what my fingers did, I just thought about what I should be hearing while playing it and my fingers did what was necessary to achieve the desired result. Unfortunately that was just a short moment of bliss and I guess that when I try to play the tune cleanly now it will still sound like a bunch of notes. It made me believe though that somewhere around 100 bpm the whole stuff starts to sound like bluegrass...

buckholler - Posted - 03/12/2013:  06:18:13

Lenmonster, you seem like a very accomplished musician, and welcome to the banjo world. Something my instructor told me when I first started was to find the melody notes, and to strum or vamp the cords of the songs to get a "feel" of the song we were learning. I like to vamp using the cord inversions up the neck while my instructor plays the song at his speed, which is usually up to speed. Its good practice for hearing cord changes also. I get a feel of the song, then we work on the solo/break parts. I think this works good (at least for me) because I learn my cord inversions, vamping and back-up, what the basic melody is, and ultimately play the song with my own breaks. My instructor sometimes brings his fiddle or mandolin and plays so I'm the only banjo in the room. Kinda forces you to not follow along but be a part of the the music.

I personally have a hard time with tab. So I have my instructor plays the song and I record it on my phone. He plays it up to speed and then slow. Usually if it can hear it slow I will pick it up faster (within minutes to couple hours). When I only worked off tab I could sit down with a song and work for 10+ hours and never get it. I hear it played slow I get it in 1/2 hour. Just some ideas. And by no means should I be considered knowledgeable in this stuff, thats why we have folks like (Banjophobic) around. He's has some great info on music theory and everything banjo. I'm just commenting on what works for me and who knows it may help.

bluenote23 - Posted - 03/12/2013:  06:56:55

I've been playing about as long as you (I started in January). Here are my observations.



II think you have to be able to play the song without really thinking about what you are playing. That's really just a question of practice (for me, a lot of practice!) Foggy Mountain Breakdown is a difficult place to learn this if you want fairly rapid results. I think I played that tune at least two weeks (so that's 14 days, playing every day) before it even sounded a little like Foggy Mountain Breakdown (and I mean just a little. It was still barely recognizable). Luckily I live alone or I would have driven everyone nuts.



I'm using Banjo Ben Clark's online lessons, a very good deal at $12.50 a month. He provides tab and TablEdit downloads. In his videos, he plays the song at normal speed and then he plays it very slowly, often going through the song measure by measure, going over left and right hand fingering and other problems (though he doesn't do this with Foggy Mountain, which is too bad. And his version is really, really fast!) Though I haven't used the TablEdit function, you can take these tabs and 'play' them with TEFview software, speeding them up or slowing them down as you wish.



All the tunes I've played have a little 'swing' to them and if you play the notes in straight time, they won't always sound right. But you have start somewhere. You can swing the notes once you don't have to worry about what you are playing.



I would try something easier if you want to hear 'bluegrass' results more quickly. Cripple Creek was the first tune I learned and it gave me that sound pretty much right away (or at least gave me notions that I could work with).



I don't play with a metronome but I tried it just now. For Foggy Mountain, at 120BPM it will start to sound a bit like the song you know but needs to played at 150BPM to sound anywhere close to what you hear on records or videos.

Edited by - bluenote23 on 03/12/2013 07:01:23

JoeDownes - Posted - 03/12/2013:  08:49:21

 I felt like my picking started to sound more like bluegrass (regardless of tempo) after I worked on this lesson by Rob Bourassa.

He basically tells you to accent the notes that fall on the beat (assuming 4/4), every other note of an eight note roll, starting with the first. It's the kind of accentuation that comes natural for flatpickers, because the downstrokes are somewhat accentuated. It's difficult at first with a three finger roll, because every accent falls on a different finger when you play TIMTIM or MITMIT sequences. Try accenting the bold letters:

FMB roll imtmtimt

FWD roll titimtim, timtimtm

FWDBWD roll timtmiti

stickfigurine - Posted - 03/12/2013:  08:49:54

I have struggled with this very question and to my ears, the answer is:

It starts to sound "right" at around 70-75% of the recorded speed.

I say this because I'm just reaching this speed with my my most-practiced songs (I started last November) and I can start to hear "that magical transformation" when I push the speed. Dropping below that speed tends to sound like a completely different tune - especially with songs based on alternating thumb rolls like Cripple Creek. My theory is that if the melody notes get played too slowly, your brain starts to hear the filler notes as part of the melody instead of an arpeggiated chord.

My two pieces of (non-expert) advice are:

1. 
   Practice by playing along with the recording using Transcribe, ASD, etc. You will not only be able to get your timing and accentuation dialed in, you'll also be able to measure your progress as you slowly dial up the speed week-by-week. The experts who haunt BHO frequently recommend this technique, and boy oh boy they are right - it doubled my learning pace.


2. 
   Really hammer the melody notes and try to set them apart from the filler notes. Of course this requires that you recognize which notes in the barrage are the melody notes - something that most course material doesn't really emphasize well enough, IMHO. For me the lightbulb went on when I "started over" using Wayne Erbsen's _Bluegrass Banjo for the Complete Ignoramus_, which is unusual in that it teaches from fakebook tablature - just the melody notes, with some guidance as to how to add filler notes yourself.

I guess I have a third piece of advice, which is to just play slower songs. I haven't even started FMB and I walked away from Cripple Creek for a couple months. My CC is pretty tolerable now, but I still think it's more fun to play along with lyrical songs like Nine Pound Hammer and Old Joe Clark - especially alternating backup with lead breaks along with the recordings.

Edited by - stickfigurine on 03/12/2013 08:53:52

ildertongap - Posted - 03/12/2013:  09:49:01

Hi Folks,

It is great to see a topic that has a lot of input from newer pickers. I think this question is one that we all ask ourselves and if you have no musical background to draw from (which is my case) , you need to have faith that if you practice well and frequently, paying attention to the details and picking slow enough to allow mastery of the art, "All will be revealed" , that holy grail of beginner pickers, the much sought after, seemingly always just out of reach, "Bluegrass Sound" will in fact be heard from your banjo, while you are playing it. Keep picking!

Geoff

Dave Magram - Posted - 03/12/2013:  10:32:01

quote:

Originally posted by stickfigurine

My two pieces of (non-expert) advice are:

1. 
   Practice by playing along with the recording using Transcribe, ASD, etc. You will not only be able to get your timing and accentuation dialed in, you'll also be able to measure your progress as you slowly dial up the speed week-by-week. The experts who haunt BHO frequently recommend this technique, and boy oh boy they are right - it doubled my learning pace.


2. 
   Really hammer the melody notes and try to set them apart from the filler notes. Of course this requires that you recognize which notes in the barrage are the melody notes - something that most course material doesn't really emphasize well enough, IMHO. For me the lightbulb went on when I "started over" using Wayne Erbsen's _Bluegrass Banjo for the Complete Ignoramus_, which is unusual in that it teaches from fakebook tablature - just the melody notes, with some guidance as to how to add filler notes yourself.

I guess I have a third piece of advice, which is to just play slower songs. I haven't even started FMB and I walked away from Cripple Creek for a couple months. My CC is pretty tolerable now, but I still think it's more fun to play along with lyrical songs like Nine Pound Hammer and Old Joe Clark - especially alternating backup with lead breaks along with the recordings.

Stickfigurine is right on the money!

Getting bluegrass banjo to sound right is not about the tempo—it’s about Timing, Accentuation, and Drive.  I posted an audio-clip: Timing, Accentuation, & Drive - Demo & exercises, in which I attempt to describe & demonstrate those Three Essential Elements of Earl Scruggs' right-hand picking style, along with some specific exercises to help you acquire them.

Practicing by playing along with recordings is also an excellent idea. It is the way most proficient banjo players learned. Perhaps the best way to learn to play with Timing, Accentuation, and Drive is to learn just one of Earl Scruggs’ solos—one measure (or even one roll) at a time, using a music slowdown tool to “loop” the measure. I explained this modernized “Study on Earl” plan in detail on the thread “Song Recommendations” at: banjohangout.org/topic/252441 . One BHO member who tried this approach reported great results in just a few days!

Starting with slower songs (with words) to help you focus on the melody is another excellent idea. As I recall, “Poor Ellen Smith” was my “breakthrough” song when I was learning Scruggs style by slowing down 33 rpm phonograph records to 16 rpm.  Lester Flatt sang “Poor Ellen Smith” at a slow-moderate tempo, and I remember marveling how impeccable Earl’s Timing, Accentuation, and Drive was— even at half-speed!

If you want to try learning some slow songs to get you started on Timing, Accentuation, and Drive, I’d highly recommend purchasing:Folk Songs of Our Land / Hard Travelin' by Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs .  This CD contains 24 great songs (including “Poor Ellen Smith”), mostly played at slow or medium tempos. These albums were great to learn from—lots of Earl’s great backup, too. Available from Amazon for less than $10!

-Dave

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/12/2013:  11:41:38

FWIW, listen to the beginning of the original recording of "Shuckin' The Corn". Then listen to the beginning of Flatt & Scruggs' recording of "Doin' My Time".

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 03/12/2013:  13:04:59

Absolutely... Metronome timing.... "IS NOT BLUEGRASS TIMING"... Bluegrass is not played center or mid beat.. If you are advanced enough to know how to play up and on top of the metro beat.. Then you do not need this topic..
The best advice I can give... Study every word that Dave Magram posts, until you undertand his point!! And ingest, put in in your book!!

Dave Magram - Posted - 03/12/2013:  17:07:44

Kenneth, thank you for your kind words.

I couldn't agree with you more. I cannot imagine how anyone can learn to play ahead of the beat to achieve bluegrass drive-- with a metronome that only clicks right on the beat!

On the other hand, Lester Flatt & The Foggy Mtn Boys are the ideal band to practice with to work on timing and drive. They lay down great rhythm, were always ready to play with me whenever I wanted,  never complained if I made a mistake... and that guy playing banjo with them sure had bluegrass drive and timing nailed down-- didn't he?

-Dave

stetix01 - Posted - 03/13/2013:  04:58:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by stickfigurine

I have struggled with this very question and to my ears, the answer is:

It starts to sound "right" at around 70-75% of the recorded speed.

I say this because I'm just reaching this speed with my my most-practiced songs (I started last November) and I can start to hear "that magical transformation" when I push the speed. Dropping below that speed tends to sound like a completely different tune - especially with songs based on alternating thumb rolls like Cripple Creek. My theory is that if the melody notes get played too slowly, your brain starts to hear the filler notes as part of the melody instead of an arpeggiated chord.

My two pieces of (non-expert) advice are:

1. 
   Practice by playing along with the recording using Transcribe, ASD, etc. You will not only be able to get your timing and accentuation dialed in, you'll also be able to measure your progress as you slowly dial up the speed week-by-week. The experts who haunt BHO frequently recommend this technique, and boy oh boy they are right - it doubled my learning pace.


2. 
   Really hammer the melody notes and try to set them apart from the filler notes. Of course this requires that you recognize which notes in the barrage are the melody notes - something that most course material doesn't really emphasize well enough, IMHO. For me the lightbulb went on when I "started over" using Wayne Erbsen's _Bluegrass Banjo for the Complete Ignoramus_, which is unusual in that it teaches from fakebook tablature - just the melody notes, with some guidance as to how to add filler notes yourself.

I guess I have a third piece of advice, which is to just play slower songs. I haven't even started FMB and I walked away from Cripple Creek for a couple months. My CC is pretty tolerable now, but I still think it's more fun to play along with lyrical songs like Nine Pound Hammer and Old Joe Clark - especially alternating backup with lead breaks along with the recordings.

---

ah hah!  I knew it!!  This might be one of the best pieces of advice I've gotten.  Thank you stick!