Joe Larson - Posted - 01/08/2013:  12:22:26

Okay, so I know that Equal Temper Tuning is the compromise that was made in order to solve a number of problems including being able to play in any key. And I've even read about "The Comma of Pythagoras" and can boast that I understand it - mostly. But I ran into a guitar player who claims to be able to hear the "fact" that an electronic tuner tunes the B string on a guitar high, and he will insist that others in a jam lower the pitch of that string from what the tuner indicates. My ear isn't anywhere near good enough to hear the difference but from years of playing guitar I know that the B string is always a problem for me and many others when tuning. So why the B string? Any thoughts.

j

Edited by - Joe Larson on 01/08/2013 12:22:52

LukeBanjomin - Posted - 01/08/2013:  12:38:10

I actually tend to have to lower my G string to make it match the rest of them.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/08/2013:  13:01:00

I think it's not so much the B string, but that major 3rd interval when played along with the G that gives us the problem. Going back to the compromise of just temperament and making that 5/4 relationship work in all keys on a fretboard.

Perhaps others can explain it better.

My electronic tuner seems to take tempering of the B string into account, as it gets an open G chord pretty close to in tune. Which is fine until you play in other keys.

Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 01/08/2013 13:02:59

beegee - Posted - 01/08/2013:  13:14:06

The explanation is in mathematics and pure intervals, fundamentals and equal temperament of a scale. I don't pretend to understand the minutiae, but this is why so many folks think something is wrong with the intonation on the fretted instrument. Non-fretted players(say a string quartet)tend to adjust and compensate by ear at they play. Our ears like the Pythagorean ratios best. Electronic tuners will drive you crazy. Iused to used a 440 A tuning fork to tune the A and tune everything else by ear. i still tune by ear, using the electronic tuner to get close and then adjust the strings so the "beats" smooth out. I tune the pairs of Gs and Ds in octaves so there are no beats and then work the B into the mix, usually using the 1st string stopped at 5, the 2nd at 8 and the 5th open until everything matches.

Intonicity varies with string stiffness(gauge and material), scale length, deflection.

Edited by - beegee on 01/08/2013 13:24:06

Banjophobic - Posted - 01/08/2013:  13:15:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I think it's not so much the B string, but that major 3rd interval when played along with the G that gives us the problem. Going back to the compromise of just temperament and making that 5/4 relationship work in all keys on a fretboard.

Perhaps others can explain it better.

My electronic tuner seems to take tempering of the B string into account, as it gets an open G chord pretty close to in tune. Which is fine until you play in other keys.

---

Right laurence-its not the string, but the major 3rd thats causing our ears to struggle. On banjo and guitar, your ear wants to hear that B  string note tuned slightly flat, but when playing that note in a chord, you will find it sounds flat too. To get the B string to sound good in chords, you'll need to tune it correctly. This means is will sound sharpwhen played open, compared to other strings,. but that string will blend better with chords...arrrgggg,lol.

Banjo players are always looking for that 'sweet spot', somewhere between too flat and too sharp sounding. Its a never ending ear/tuner/mind battle.

tbfnyc - Posted - 01/08/2013:  14:16:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I think it's not so much the B string, but that major 3rd interval when played along with the G that gives us the problem. Going back to the compromise of just temperament and making that 5/4 relationship work in all keys on a fretboard.

Perhaps others can explain it better.

My electronic tuner seems to take tempering of the B string into account, as it gets an open G chord pretty close to in tune. Which is fine until you play in other keys.

---

Right laurence-its not the string, but the major 3rd thats causing our ears to struggle. On banjo and guitar, your ear wants to hear that B  string note tuned slightly flat, but when playing that note in a chord, you will find it sounds flat too. To get the B string to sound good in chords, you'll need to tune it correctly. This means is will sound sharpwhen played open, compared to other strings,. but that string will blend better with chords...arrrgggg,lol.

Banjo players are always looking for that 'sweet spot', somewhere between too flat and too sharp sounding. Its a never ending ear/tuner/mind battle.

---

Right. And that is what has always made me suspicious of my Peterson strobe tuner. Supposedly you can set it to "sweeten" various instruments. For instance, if you set it to the banjo (bjo) setting it tempers the B string nicely. But what about if you tune while you're capoed to A at the 2nd fret? It should tune the second string to a tempered C# but it does not. Same thing when you capo up to B and try to use the Peterson. It now thinks the 3rd string is sharp because it is a B. Not so good.

When I use it at all now I just set it to equal, i.e. no tempering, and tune the second string to the open chord.

John Steele - Posted - 01/08/2013:  14:30:48

It's because a just intonation third is about 14 cents flat of an equal tempered third. 

The fifths are less problematic, because the difference is usually less than 5 cents. 

Ask a steel player about temperament....   four hours later, you'll be asking him to quit talking. 

That's why Ricky Skaggs always said he was going to write a hymn called "There'll be no B strings in heaven". 

- John 

p.s.  If your guitar player friend is convinced he can hear that equal tempered third and doesn't  like it, surely he must hear that every other note on your neck is flat if you lower it. 

Edited by - John Steele on 01/08/2013 14:33:04

Joe Larson - Posted - 01/08/2013:  15:26:23

I understand what you're saying but the B is only the third for the G chord. If the problem was that interval then you (or he) would have a problem with the third in every chord. But it just seems to be the B string that gives so many guitar players fits.

j

atracksler - Posted - 01/08/2013:  15:35:39

I found, when I was learning resonator guitar, if I tuned the b down 2 cents, it made all the difference in the world, but hey, thats my 2 cents...

banjoak - Posted - 01/08/2013:  21:13:10

Every third is a problem for every chord. I usually find the guitar low B on on a G chord sometimes more unsettling. Actually it's not just in the chord but the key; and sixths and sevenths are pretty noticeable to me.

Of course the other larger problem with fretted instruments is that fixing the third (b note) will make the other fretted  intervals off, immediately apparent is the d note on the third fret. Can't have both (without a complicated fretboard) - so it's a compromise. The d note, forming a fifth in the key of G is more noticeable when off by 16 cents.

janolov - Posted - 01/08/2013:  23:46:13

When using a chromatic tuner the instrument is tuned to the chromatic scale. If you tune by ear you usually don't get the chromatic scale exactly. In every chromatic scale the third tone sounds a weird. A major third in just represent the frequency interval 5/4 = 1,25 (in this case frequency of open second string relative the frequency of the open third string). In the chromatic scale the corresponding relation is 2^(9/12):1 = 1,259921/1. 



If you tune the banjo to open G (standard) and play in another key than G it will be other strings or notes that sound weird for the trained ear. So the chromatic tuning is a compromise to play in several keys.



The are examples of split frets on old zither-banjos, where the second fret on first string was split, because it was usually played in C tuning and the third note in the scale is then played on first string second fret: zither-banjo.org/pages/jreilly1.htm.

 

overhere - Posted - 01/11/2013:  02:14:32

why do banjo players play so fast?... answer... so know one hears how far out of tune the B string is!!!

Dave Magram - Posted - 01/11/2013:  10:49:22

Here’s what I have found to a sure-fire way to accurately tune a banjo to gDGBD (or to quickly check your tuning). It gets the B string in tune every time:

1. Tune the 3rd (G) string to a tuner, tuning fork, or the guitar.

2. Fret the 3rd string at fret 7, and tune the 1st string open from that D note.

3. Tune the 4th string open from the 3rd string at fret 7 (D).

4. Tune the 5th string open from the 1st string at fret 5 (G) or from the 3rd string open.

5. Here’s the “magic trick”: Fret the 2nd string at fret 3, and tune it (fretted) from the open 1st string.

[If you’d rather use a tuner than your ear, tune the 1st, 3rd, 4th, & 5th strings open with the tuner. Fret the 2nd string at the third fret to tune it to D with the tuner.]

The reason why this method works so well is that you are always tuning between the root tone (G) to the fifth tone (D), and avoiding the problematic equal-tempered 3rd tone.

6. To double-check that the banjo is in tune, I play an F-formation G chord (frets 3-5), and a D-formation G chord (frets 7-9).

- Dave

Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/11/2013 10:51:37

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/11/2013:  11:34:00

In addition, think about how often we play the open 1st string immediately after the 2nd-string D (for example, in the "Foggy Mountain" lick). If those two aren't perfectly in tune--ewwwww.

Joe Larson - Posted - 01/11/2013:  12:39:58

Dave, I do a variation of that tuning technique. Assuming the third string is in tune:

1. play the 12th fret harmonic on the third string and tune the 5th.

2. play the 7th fret harmonic on the third string and the 12th fret harmonic on the first and tune the first .

3. play the 12 fret harmonic on the fourth string and tune it to the first.

4. I then tune the B string at the third fret to the 1st string and check it at the 8th fret with the fifth string.

j

jbaker7 - Posted - 01/11/2013:  12:48:18

Hi Bee Gee,

Wowsers! Very technical and exact but correct...Jack  er, um could this be of any help?

theatlantic.com/past/docs/issu.../toby.htm 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beegee

The explanation is in mathematics and pure intervals, fundamentals and equal temperament of a scale. I don't pretend to understand the minutiae, but this is why so many folks think something is wrong with the intonation on the fretted instrument. Non-fretted players(say a string quartet)tend to adjust and compensate by ear at they play. Our ears like the Pythagorean ratios best. Electronic tuners will drive you crazy. Iused to used a 440 A tuning fork to tune the A and tune everything else by ear. i still tune by ear, using the electronic tuner to get close and then adjust the strings so the "beats" smooth out. I tune the pairs of Gs and Ds in octaves so there are no beats and then work the B into the mix, usually using the 1st string stopped at 5, the 2nd at 8 and the 5th open until everything matches.

Intonicity varies with string stiffness(gauge and material), scale length, deflection.

---

Edited by - jbaker7 on 01/11/2013 12:57:46

drew-gurbach - Posted - 01/11/2013:  16:33:20

Here’s my take on it: its string deflection.  Take a look at guitars for example.  Quality guitars have a slightly angled bridge due to a reduction in string gage.  Also note that on good guitars the bridge has a built in “compensation” on the B string.  When tuning a guitar, you’ll notice that fretting a lower sting at the 5^th fret give you the next string…and so on EXCEPT for the B string; you fret the G string on the fourth fret.

Now, consider your banjo.  The strings progress in a descending gages.  Also note you play the low D on the 5^th fret to get the G string, the G string is fretted on the 4^th fret for the B string, B on the 3^rd, and jump back up to the 5^th on the high D for the fifth string.

The fact that the strings have different gages, are not comparatively tuned on the same fret across the fret board, and have different deflection distanced as you move away from the nut, all add up to B string challenges.

That’s MY story, and I’m sticking to it. 

overhere - Posted - 01/12/2013:  02:19:58

not being a wise guy Drew, but then why isn't all the strings challenged?

JoeDownes - Posted - 01/12/2013:  02:37:45

I agree that it's got to do with the sharp major third interval in equal temperament.

MrManners - Posted - 01/12/2013:  04:54:58

thank god my tin ear does not have such problems.One of the few scientific reasons in music is based on the number of vibrations per equal length of time.Supposedly a chord sounds pleasing because the notes hit the ends of their respective wave length at exactly the same point not every time,but the 5th and root syn up every other excursion of the 5th,and the root and third every 3rd excursion of the 3rd.the octave goes twice as fast.of course this does not explain the reason for equal temperament,which is common knowledge.If I tune my b string perfect it throws the g at the 8th fret off,so i leave it be.

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 01/12/2013:  12:14:18

I have been further down this road than you can imagine.  One of my former band mates is a classically trained musician with an incredible ear for pitch. 

The best temperament I've found for the banjo is the "almost equal" temperament on the Cleartune tuner, which is an app that is available for the iPhone or other Android device.  (Actually, I should give the credit to my band mate, who found the app and decided which temperament works best.  I was just along for the ride.)

Joe Larson - Posted - 01/12/2013:  12:54:13

It takes a village to tune a banjo.

j

Mirek Patek - Posted - 01/12/2013:  13:43:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Steele

That's why Ricky Skaggs always said he was going to write a hymn called "There'll be no B strings in heaven".

---

Nor in my DGdg tenor banjo. And what a perfect (sic) octaves I have.

drew-gurbach - Posted - 01/12/2013:  14:44:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by overhere

not being a wise guy Drew, but then why isn't all the strings challenged?

---

It’s like an old fashioned clothes line in your back yard. Imagine 100 feet of line, and one pole being the bridge and the other being the nut.  You might find it easier to pull the line down to the ground in the middle (12^th fret equivalent), but the closer to the pole (bridge) you get, the more force and high tension/deflections you’ll encounter.

Your point about why aren’t all strings challenged is well taken.  My answer is the closer the fretting to the bridge, the more deflection and sharpness occurs.  I play the Dobro and it has two B strings and there’s never a B string challenge…and, the strings never touch the fret board because of always being played with a slide.

drew-gurbach - Posted - 01/12/2013:  18:29:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by drew-gurbach

quote:

---

Originally posted by overhere

not being a wise guy Drew, but then why isn't all the strings challenged?

---

It’s like an old fashioned clothes line in your back yard. Imagine 100 feet of line, and one pole being the bridge and the other being the nut.  You might find it easier to pull the line down to the ground in the middle (12^th fret equivalent), but the closer to the pole (bridge) you get, the more force and high tension/deflections you’ll encounter.

Your point about why aren’t all strings challenged is well taken.  My answer is the closer the fretting to the bridge, the more deflection and sharpness occurs.  I play the Dobro and it has two B strings and there’s never a B string challenge…and, the strings never touch the fret board because of always being played with a slide.

---

 I have to correct myself:   I meant the closer to the NUT the fretting the more deflection and sharpness.  My editor is off tonight! 

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 01/12/2013:  19:33:44

Drew,

Exactly right.  Some banjos (Gibsons, Stellings, at least some Deerings) have compensated fret locations to help alleviate this problem.  Many banjos do not.

John Steele - Posted - 01/13/2013:  12:12:23

Joe, I'd be willing to bet your guitar-playing friend's focus on B strings is because he mostly plays out of G and C positions, and uses a capo alot.

The reason I say this is, if he played alot in open E, for instance, then that B string now represents the fitth... and, opposite of thirds, a just intonation fifth is sharp of an equally tempered fifth.  Not as dramatically as thirds, but a factor nonetheless.

If the guitarists played all night in open E position, you can bet he wouldn't be telling everyone to flatten their B string !

- John

banjoak - Posted - 01/13/2013:  13:28:11

Two different issues mentioned. One is the basic problem of equal temperament.

The other, about compensated bridge, and string deflection and gage. It's goal is to make the instrument play in equal temperament all through the fret board. It won't overcome the problems of equal temperament.

The other issue that comes up when playing with others, is about what difference does the precision (to some theoretical ideal) make in actual real time context? To what degree is it really going to make you be perceived as a better player, making better music?

Factors in that, is how short the note is, how quick the come, how long the sound; the role the note plays, other aspects of the music; and the brain's ability to notice, and the brain's natural ability to compensate.

Joe Larson - Posted - 01/15/2013:  12:29:14

Well, like I said, my ear isn't good enough to hear the differences that this guy does, I tune it to the tuner and forget it.

Our PBS station once played a piece by a group (I have no idea) who played ancient instruments in Just Temperament. I thought it sounded awful.

j

Joe Larson - Posted - 01/16/2013:  07:39:20

Another thought (Wow! That's 2 in one day!) I would sometimes tune my guitar using harmonics - 5th string harmonic at the 7th fret to the 6th string harmonic at the 5th fret, etc. - and tune the beats out. But it never sounded in tune when I played a chord. I couldn't figure that one out until just now. And it's the same reason why my friend's attempt to tune his guitar to Just Temperament is doomed to fail: The temperament of the strings doesn't match the Equal Temperament of the fret board.

j

Edited by - Joe Larson on 01/16/2013 07:39:52

Banjophobic - Posted - 01/16/2013:  08:26:44

Fretting instrument tempered tuning is a compromise. Its never going to be dead on anywhere on the fretboard. 

steve davis - Posted - 02/04/2013:  04:14:55

I always tune my B string 5-6 cents flat even with my compensated bridge.
I tune it flat on my guitars,too.
I never analyzed why,I just tune it to what sounds right.

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/04/2013:  17:20:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I always tune my B string 5-6 cents flat even with my compensated bridge.

I tune it flat on my guitars,too.

I never analyzed why,I just tune it to what sounds right.

---

This is because your ear is still trying to reason out the tempered scale. No compensated bridge will fix this problem of what we want to hear verses what we are actually hearing.

NYCJazz - Posted - 02/04/2013:  18:30:53

I tune the B string first with the tuner, then use the frets for the D and G strings

I then use the octave harmonic of the C string to compare the B string fretted at the first fret

Then I play a C root chord with the C string open to check the whole setup

Ukeman - Posted - 02/18/2013:  10:31:48

To eliminate the "beats" in any major chord, the 3rd has to be tuned slightly flat from equal temperament.   Before Bach, keyboards were tuned to be "in tune" in one key only.  The 3rds of the three main chords, I, IV, and V were tuned "flat" so that they rang true by Pythagorean theory.  Some modern Renaissance and Baroque music ensembles still play in "just" intonation.  It sounds marvelous, but try to play in another key?  The farther you get from the key the piano (harpsichord) is tuned in, the worse it gets.  Play one key off and it's almost acceptable.  (D from G for example).   But go far afield, say to Bb?  You'd think they hadn't tuned the instrument at all.  You can actually buy modern tuners that will tune in several temperaments.    

J. S. Bach was considered a crazy old man to a lot of his contemporaries.  His "Well Tempered Clavier" was a series of 24 compositions, one in every major and minor key, to prove his idea of equal temperament could work.  Check out Rex McGee's "24 Creations for Solo Banjo."  Same idea, 24 original compositions for banjo, all 12 major and minor keys.  (No, he doesn't use a capo.)

How a luthier gets a fretboard to be as close as they do is what amazes me.  There may be some secrets out there that some are not divulging!  Any fretboard is a compromise of sorts at best.  Modern electronic tuners work in equal temperament - but even they are slightly off because equal temperament is analog, and most if not all tuners are digital.  The digital divisions used to create a pitch do not correspond exactly to their analog counterparts they are attempting to replicate.   Admittedly the difference is small, but it is there.

steve davis - Posted - 02/18/2013:  13:38:21

My compensated bridge does a great job at removing a large percentage of compromise in straight frets and nut.

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/18/2013:  13:56:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ukeman

  Modern electronic tuners work in equal temperament - but even they are slightly off because equal temperament is analog, and most if not all tuners are digital.  The digital divisions used to create a pitch do not correspond exactly to their analog counterparts they are attempting to replicate.   Admittedly the difference is small, but it is there.

---

Many modern strobe tuners have built in 'sweetened' tunings for various instruments. Peterson's have 40 presets, including banjo. It slightly alters 'standard' pitch for each string in open G tuning, so that the chords sound better, with less fidgeting/tweeking of the strings. It really does work great, once you ears get used to how the open strings sound.

Dave Magram - Posted - 02/18/2013:  16:06:46

Many years ago, in my quest for all things "Earl", I bought a Flatt & Scruggs "photo album" that had close-up photos inside the front cover of Earl demonstrating how to make the basic banjo chords.

I recall noticing what looked like a little bit of thin metal (perhaps a piece of one of Louise's bobby pins) in front of the 4th fret just where the 3rd string crossed over it.  Such a "fret extension" would cause the B note on the 3rd string to sharpen very slightly-- a compensated fret. Earl had a solution nearly everything!

This was a very long time ago, and unfortunately the photo album has disappeared, or else I'd scan the photo and post it. Maybe someone else has a copy?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, the easiest solution to the B string problem is to never tune the B string open. Instead, tune it fretted at the 3rd fret (D) with a tuner or by matching it to the 1st string D. Works every time! (Also works for guitars.)

- Dave

JoeDownes - Posted - 02/18/2013:  16:17:29

Why would he want to sharpen the B note on the G string? I don't get it.

If the intonation of the guitar on the first few frets set correctly, both the open B and the 3rd fret D note should be in tune according to the tuner.

Edited by - JoeDownes on 02/18/2013 16:18:14

Dave Magram - Posted - 02/18/2013:  19:57:38

Joe, you may have a point. I just checked the tuning on my banjo, and the B note produced at the equal-tempered 4th fret of the third string is slightly sharp.

It's been over 30 years since I last saw the photo of Earl's fret-board; maybe Earl had the thin piece of metal behind the fret to flat the B note slightly.

- Dave