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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/237647
banjo-oz - Posted - 06/03/2012: 22:16:08
I have an Ibanez artist purchased in the early eighties made in Japan. The finish and quality of workmanship I would say is close to faultless however on resale people say they are intermediate banjos etc and in America the resale price is only in the $650 to $900 range. Now I realise that a lot of the banjos from China and korea look great but below the paint are poor quality materials and workmanship. So which banjos (other than Stellings and more expensive Deerings) are going to keep their value and perhaps increase like the old Gibsons have done. What do you folks think of the Bishlines for future staying power??
plunka5 - Posted - 06/03/2012: 23:54:59
Popularity and desire drive the market. Gibsons, Stellings, and Gibson conversions (original OPF models) seem to do well, and for a very brief moment commanded a very high price. Other Gibson conversions (non-original but converted to OPF, like the shoe-and-bracket Gibsons, Orioles, etc) seem to bring a little less. Deerings, Fenders (older ones), older Odes, Baldwin-Odes, Omes, seem to lose their value for a time then stabilize. It's a very peculiar market that makes no sense. All of the above are very good banjos, but people's tastes drive the market, and can make a 70's RB-250 price as high as some newer banjos...even though some would argue that those were not Gibson's best years? 
p.s. just play the crap out of any banjo you have to realize "investment" value, don't try to speculate. IMHO
Edited by - plunka5 on 06/03/2012 23:56:12
JMalmsteen - Posted - 06/04/2012: 02:38:22
Low supply + high demand= expensive
Possibly any nice Gibson if they truly have stopped production, more so Greg Rich era etc
desert rose - Posted - 06/04/2012: 03:00:03
If any person had a REAL answer to this question regarding ANY product, they would be the richest person on the planet. Its true speculation in the purest form.
You can NEVER predict what the market... or world will be like in twenty years or more regarding anything. The human race man have done itself in by that time.
You can be sure that anything Asian will have the smallest chance of gaining real collectors value. A few exceptions, the Kentucky Dawg mandolin, its worth many times its original value. It took world class craftsmanship, a world class artist connection and a total of 48 instruments to get this status.
Mass produced anything will always be to available to be collectable... if collectable means $$$
Id say original archtop Mastertones will be worth $$$ in half a century thanks to all the butchery done to them by the banjo community for the last fifteen years
, but that to is speculation
Scott
Corwyn - Posted - 06/04/2012: 04:39:33
If anyone knew now what a banjo would be worth in the future, they would be worth that today (minus future value of money).
beegee - Posted - 06/04/2012: 05:24:38
Buy what you like and play it. Buy the best you can buy for the least money, and don't buy it for an investment.
GMB - Posted - 06/04/2012: 06:05:37
I think Bee Gee hits the mark. You should buy to play. If the instrument is not played it's not fulfilling the purpose. Let's say you spend $1000 on a banjo and own it for 20 years...that works out to $50 a year which is a bargain for anything that gives real pleasure. But if your just collecting it, where's the pleasure? Buy because you want to play it! Cheers, Jerry
steve davis - Posted - 06/04/2012: 06:13:33
I collect a few things with plans on selling them later for a profit.
Right now I've collected 2 70s Gold Star banjos.
They'll be for sale when I think the economy is doing better.
Right now,I enjoy playing them and will continue to look in on certain on line auctions for more deals.
Anything's collectible if you don't pay too much.
Edited by - steve davis on 06/04/2012 06:15:10
Fathand - Posted - 06/04/2012: 07:19:35
I purchased an Ibanez Artist new in Toronto around 1979 for $585. At the $650 to $900 current prices, I would say they have held their value.
Any nicely playable instrument with decent tone and craftsmanship will retain most of it's value as long as there is still a demand for that instrument. Once an instrument falls out of favour with the general public prices will drop. Example, I have an 1880's 4 chord Autoharp in the original box that I would be hard pressed to get $75 for it. No one plays these anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by banjo-oz
I have an Ibanez artist purchased in the early eighties made in Japan. The finish and quality of workmanship I would say is close to faultless however on resale people say they are intermediate banjos etc and in America the resale price is only in the $650 to $900 range. Now I realise that a lot of the banjos from China and korea look great but below the paint are poor quality materials and workmanship. So which banjos (other than Stellings and more expensive Deerings) are going to keep their value and perhaps increase like the old Gibsons have done. What do you folks think of the Bishlines for future staying power??
steve davis - Posted - 06/04/2012: 07:32:51
My Ukelin will never be worth a lot ,but it was Dad's and is priceless to me.
Dad said ."Some guy in the 20s came through town playing the devil out of one of these,so a bunch of us bought one.Nobody could get the music out of one like that fella could,though."
Edited by - steve davis on 06/04/2012 07:39:52
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 06/04/2012: 08:19:28
Banjo's that sound good now: Arthur Hatfield's, Hubers, Frank Neat, Sonny Osborne' chiefs, Yates and the better RK. I think they will all go up in price. they sound good now and will sound better in the years to come.
ken
The Old Timer - Posted - 06/04/2012: 09:49:23
It really depends on two things: what you pay for it "now", and what will the future demand be for the entire instrument "family" and your particular choice of model.
If you buy anything cheap enough, it has a much better chance of holding its value. I've read many times that the top vintage instrument dealers make their money on the "buy". They buy stuff CHEAP.
You also have to figure in inflation. Holding value is a very relative term! All of my banjos are currently worth more than their original price if you DON'T worry about inflation.
In the 20s nobody would have thought 5 string resonator banjos were going to be valuable in the future, they would have though the tenors would be the valuable ones! And the resonator tenor banjo is now pretty near flat-lined. Prior to maybe 1958 it might have been thought the ENTIRE banjo family was on death's door.
Buy what you like and respect and enjoy your purchase now.
steve davis - Posted - 06/04/2012: 16:32:51
I only get stuff that I find interest in playing.
I figure if I think it's OK,it probably is.
maryzcox - Posted - 06/04/2012: 18:08:38
quote:
Originally posted by beegee
Buy what you like and play it. Buy the best you can buy for the least money, and don't buy it for an investment.
BobCu - Posted - 06/05/2012: 06:04:53
quote:
Originally posted by beegee
Buy what you like and play it. Buy the best you can buy for the least money, and don't buy it for an investment.
I agree. That is probably the best advice you can be given. Buy what you can afford and like, make the best of it and don't worry about it.
lazyarcher - Posted - 06/05/2012: 07:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by desert rose
If any person had a REAL answer to this question regarding ANY product, they would be the richest person on the planet. Its true speculation in the purest form.
You can NEVER predict what the market... or world will be like in twenty years or more regarding anything. The human race man have done itself in by that time.
You can be sure that anything Asian will have the smallest chance of gaining real collectors value. A few exceptions, the Kentucky Dawg mandolin, its worth many times its original value. It took world class craftsmanship, a world class artist connection and a total of 48 instruments to get this status.
Mass produced anything will always be to available to be collectable... if collectable means $$$
Id say original archtop Mastertones will be worth $$$ in half a century thanks to all the butchery done to them by the banjo community for the last fifteen years
Scott
Here is, as usual, some of the best advice you will get about value and collectability when buying instruments.
The mistake a lot of people make re collectability of instruments (or anything for that matter) is just because they like the instrument or they got a good deal on it dosn't mean it will ever have any value to a collector. True collectors often have very strict standards re condition, documentation, specific models, etc. Just playing an instrument can drop its worth to a collector. As Scott said, Asian products that were massed produced will have little value as collectibles.
Old Gibsons will always hold value, but if modified may not be of interest to collectors (hint--don't cut those rims!!)
I'd put $$ on higher end model 2PF prewar Gibsons...Granadas, 5s, 6s ..still available at good prices.
steve davis - Posted - 06/05/2012: 07:22:24
I believe my '29 tb2 /Cox double conversion will always be worth more than the original tb2 that it came from...cut rim and all.
lazyarcher - Posted - 06/05/2012: 10:25:03
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
I believe my '29 tb2 /Cox double conversion will always be worth more than the original tb2 that it came from...cut rim and all.
Not to a collector it won't Steve...because no matter how much you love that banjo, its not original anymore. It may have value as a player, but not as a collectable.
steve davis - Posted - 06/05/2012: 11:46:55
Sure it will...to a collector of double conversion tb2s done by Jimmy Cox.
There's all kinds of different collectors.
Some want the original Packards and others want modernized retro-rods.
Edited by - steve davis on 06/05/2012 11:52:36
lazyarcher - Posted - 06/05/2012: 12:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
Sure it will...to a collector of double conversion tb2s done by Jimmy Cox.
There's all kinds of different collectors.
Some want the original Packards and others want modernized retro-rods.
I'm talking about prewar Gibson collectors who want original down to the last bracket screw.
A banjo like yours will always hold value to someone wanting a conversion, but not a collector wanting original.
stanger - Posted - 06/05/2012: 13:04:15
All the collectible market depends on a few things:
The number of avid collectors world wide
The rise and fall of an object's popularity at the moment
The prospect that an object will continue to be popular in the future
The largest and most valuable collections are stamps and coins. Both fit all those conditions. Fine art is another. Ceramics is another. All of these things have been produced for ages, so there is a very large area in which a collector can go into in many ways. An art collector can buy prints, for example that have more historical value than art value, or can specialize in owning prints made by only one artist, or prints from a region, or prints from only brand-new artists, or whatever. This allows a large price range, so a collector can spend as much or as little money as he wants.
Banjos as collectible objects appeal to a much smaller group of collectors, so they are inherently more risky as collectibles. American made banjos have a large amount of caché, just as Cremona made violins from one time period have, but there are many more violinists in the world than banjo players, and the evolution of the violin has been fixed to a certain size, shape, wood selection, etc. while the banjo is not. It is still evolving and may never become fixed in this manner.
As Scott said, collecting banjos as investments is pure speculation.
That said, there are a few brands that have passed the test of time very well. Laxyarcher is correct on his Gibson thoughts- the Gibson Mastertone has proven itself to be versatile and made well enough to last a long time with the exception of the pot metal flange. The older 2-piece flange banjos may, in time take over the popularity as a collectible because it's less prone to the damages of time. Other collectible banjos are the Vega Tubaphone and Whyte Laydie. All other brands are still yet to be determined.
BeeGee and Mary Z's advice is the best. Buy a banjo that you like and don't worry about future collectibility. If you own a banjo you would like to sell, it's only true worth is what someone is seriously willing to pay for it at the time it is offered for sale. The owner has to decide for himself if the offer is satisfactory or not. Buying any used banjo is always a matter of negotiation to some degree; if the offered price is agreeable to both at the time of sale, little negotiation happens because it was done before the sale by the owner.
If an owner believes his banjo is worth much more than similar models, he can either hold out and hope for someone to meet his price or may decide to lower it to meet the buyer's offer. Age alone may not have any value, nor rarity, nor inherent quality. A banjo can be made out of the very finest materials, but if it lacks something in any way, it becomes only what a buyer is willing to pay.
A very good example was one I watched on eBay years ago; an old guy bought an Epiphone Alhambra tenor banjo from Mike Pingatore, a well-known banjoist in the 20's and 30's. The Alhambra model was in the middle of the Epiphone line. There were better known and more expensive models above it.
All the Epi's of that era were very well made, but were not as popular as some more prominent brands. The popularity of all tenor banjos has faded from what it once was. Mike Pingatore's fame has also faded.
The owner wanted $20,000 for the banjo. The actual value of the banjo, based on what a current tenor player would be willing to pay, was much less- possibly $2,000, not $20 grand. Epiphone collectors would not pay much more, even if they didn't have an Alhambra already. The Alhambra was more common than the Emperor, which was the top of the line and cost twice as much as an Alhambra when new.
The old guy did not realize he was actually trying to sell his memories rather than a banjo, and got no bites. He offered it over and over, for several months, and never got a bite because he wouldn't budge on his price. He simply refused to believe the times had changed. It was the equivalent of trying to sell an Edsel for a Thunderbird price.
stanger
Edited by - stanger on 06/05/2012 13:08:04
lazyarcher - Posted - 06/05/2012: 13:49:49
quote:
Originally posted by stanger
All the collectible market depends on a few things:
The number of avid collectors world wide
The rise and fall of an object's popularity at the moment
The prospect that an object will continue to be popular in the future
The largest and most valuable collections are stamps and coins. Both fit all those conditions. Fine art is another. Ceramics is another. All of these things have been produced for ages, so there is a very large area in which a collector can go into in many ways. An art collector can buy prints, for example that have more historical value than art value, or can specialize in owning prints made by only one artist, or prints from a region, or prints from only brand-new artists, or whatever. This allows a large price range, so a collector can spend as much or as little money as he wants.
Banjos as collectible objects appeal to a much smaller group of collectors, so they are inherently more risky as collectibles. American made banjos have a large amount of caché, just as Cremona made violins from one time period have, but there are many more violinists in the world than banjo players, and the evolution of the violin has been fixed to a certain size, shape, wood selection, etc. while the banjo is not. It is still evolving and may never become fixed in this manner.
As Scott said, collecting banjos as investments is pure speculation.
That said, there are a few brands that have passed the test of time very well. Laxyarcher is correct on his Gibson thoughts- the Gibson Mastertone has proven itself to be versatile and made well enough to last a long time with the exception of the pot metal flange. The older 2-piece flange banjos may, in time take over the popularity as a collectible because it's less prone to the damages of time. Other collectible banjos are the Vega Tubaphone and Whyte Laydie. All other brands are still yet to be determined.
BeeGee and Mary Z's advice is the best. Buy a banjo that you like and don't worry about future collectibility. If you own a banjo you would like to sell, it's only true worth is what someone is seriously willing to pay for it at the time it is offered for sale. The owner has to decide for himself if the offer is satisfactory or not. Buying any used banjo is always a matter of negotiation to some degree; if the offered price is agreeable to both at the time of sale, little negotiation happens because it was done before the sale by the owner.
If an owner believes his banjo is worth much more than similar models, he can either hold out and hope for someone to meet his price or may decide to lower it to meet the buyer's offer. Age alone may not have any value, nor rarity, nor inherent quality. A banjo can be made out of the very finest materials, but if it lacks something in any way, it becomes only what a buyer is willing to pay.
A very good example was one I watched on eBay years ago; an old guy bought an Epiphone Alhambra tenor banjo from Mike Pingatore, a well-known banjoist in the 20's and 30's. The Alhambra model was in the middle of the Epiphone line. There were better known and more expensive models above it.
All the Epi's of that era were very well made, but were not as popular as some more prominent brands. The popularity of all tenor banjos has faded from what it once was. Mike Pingatore's fame has also faded.
The owner wanted $20,000 for the banjo. The actual value of the banjo, based on what a current tenor player would be willing to pay, was much less- possibly $2,000, not $20 grand. Epiphone collectors would not pay much more, even if they didn't have an Alhambra already. The Alhambra was more common than the Emperor, which was the top of the line and cost twice as much as an Alhambra when new.
The old guy did not realize he was actually trying to sell his memories rather than a banjo, and got no bites. He offered it over and over, for several months, and never got a bite because he wouldn't budge on his price. He simply refused to believe the times had changed. It was the equivalent of trying to sell an Edsel for a Thunderbird price.
stanger
Excellent post.
The collectability aspect of banjos has been discussed and debated many times on the BHO. Like all things collectable, opinions will always differ. With collectibles, one thing never changes, and thats when it comes time to resell, you're at the mercy of the market (unless you're willing to wait). I bought, restored, sold antique furniture years ago. A lot of people thought their antiques were worth more than they were just because they owned them and liked them. Personal bias unfortunately inflates values. True collectors are a finicky bunch, and are tough buyers.
As far as prewar Gibson banjos go, there are lots of ones to pick from but few that really meet the standard as true collectibles. I'm certainly no expert by any definition, but I've learned a few things about them over the years ... like refinishing, modifying, adding or replacing parts..all decreases the worth to collectors. Best to buy your banjo, play it, enjoy it.
steve davis - Posted - 06/05/2012: 16:39:52
I see my conversion as a very solid investment since,including the purchase price of the tenor and all Jimmy's work,I got out of it for 1750.
I think quality conversion have a great collectible value to those that can't afford to collect original 5s with tonerings.
A different group of collectors.They don't have to be all original Gibson collectors.
Charles in SC - Posted - 06/06/2012: 19:51:48
quote:
Originally posted by banjo-oz
I have an Ibanez artist purchased in the early eighties made in Japan. The finish and quality of workmanship I would say is close to faultless however on resale people say they are intermediate banjos etc and in America the resale price is only in the $650 to $900 range. Now I realise that a lot of the banjos from China and korea look great but below the paint are poor quality materials and workmanship. So which banjos (other than Stellings and more expensive Deerings) are going to keep their value and perhaps increase like the old Gibsons have done. What do you folks think of the Bishlines for future staying power??
I have been an Ibanez fan for 15 years. I have 2 of them, one with a Buck tone ring that is as good a sounding banjo as there is out there. With that said they have kept up price wise with the Gibsons as well as the others maybe even better than some. Something else to think about is that you can own two or three of them for the price of a Gibson.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/06/2012: 21:42:53
Holding value and becoming a collectible are two different things. IMO, no new banjo will hold its new retail value, though it might hold its wholesale cost. If you want to buy a banjo that will come as close as possible to holding its value, buy a good, American-made, used one [e.g.: Ome, Gibson, Deering, Reiter (and many others)]. It will depreciate far less than a new one (maybe not at all), and stands a good chance of keeping up with inflation.
steve davis - Posted - 06/07/2012: 04:18:20
Or buy a pre war tenor at the right price and have it converted for the right price.
PPo - Posted - 06/07/2012: 06:20:53
High quality workmanship and good support makers seem to have the best value retention. I wonder if the new model gibson instruments (if you get one slightly used for a good deal) will hold up, or if the mystique of the gibson name will wear off when the people who were living in Gibson's golden era are gone.
There's sort of this same question going on with tractor collectors, who are paying gobs of money for antique tractors, but the surge in value right now is based on popularity of the hobby and the fact that a large number of retired farmers selling off parts of their real estate are in the business of collecting tractors right now. Fewer farmers in the future seems to almost guarantee that all but the rarest of the collector machines will probably drop in value.
So I guess the question is how many banjo players who have come into money later in life will exist when you want to turn over your investment? If you can answer that question, you're better than me.
I can't see most of my instruments as investments, but three of them are crafters and the reputation problems there lately have made them drop in value, even other issues with one of them aside. I expect stelling and bourgeois stuff that I have to be still very nice and desirable several decades (it is perfectly executed from both makers, very tidy work), but will there be a following for it? Who knows?
The truly rare stuff will probably always be worth money, but what about the rest of the stuff that all of us can afford? Just hope that whenever you decide to sell, some celebrity with exposure to several hundred million people decides to popularize what you have.
banjoez - Posted - 06/07/2012: 06:21:29
A good used modern Gibson or any Stelling will hold it's value based on a reasonable purchase price. The Stelling for it's impeccable craftsmanship and Gibson because it is a Gibson. Now if you paid retail new you may not have a lot of room for growth but recently some are selling for more than what they cost new. They have both stood the test of time and are always in demand by someone. The big unknown is whether Gibson will return to the banjo building business in the USA or not. If not then all bets are off on how they will appreciate. Yates and Hubers should do well in the short term as they are highly in demand though by superseding the older generation designs (i.e. Vintage rings vs the new improved HR-30) kind of hurts the value of the older ones.
As far as conversions go, simple TB to RB conversions will always do well. Now when you get to non-Mastertone conversions is where I have always questioned the motivation and the pricing. By the time you modify the rim and install a modern ring and replace the original neck what do you really have? I know the argument for using an old rim has its merits and makes a fine banjo but as far as keeping it's value or being collectible I'm not sure. A modern Gibson can sound pretty good and it's all there from the start.
Edited by - banjoez on 06/07/2012 06:35:39
banjo-oz - Posted - 06/07/2012: 08:22:24
quote:
Originally posted by Charles in SC
I have been an Ibanez fan for 15 years. I have 2 of them, one with a Buck tone ring that is as good a sounding banjo as there is out there. With that said they have kept up price wise with the Gibsons as well as the others maybe even better than some. Something else to think about is that you can own two or three of them for the price of a Gibson.
Charles do your Ibanez banjos have the multi laminated rims still on them a lot of people seem to criticise them. I must admit when I first had mine and got to know enough about what to expect from a banjo my artist was a bit dead but after a bit of setting up properly a clear plastic head and a Fults tailpiece (cos the inferior Ibanez one broke) it rings out loud now, (I felt that the Fults tailpiece made the most notable difference to the extra volume!).
For the other members I notice no one has mentioned the Bishlines so far as was asked in the original query?
steve davis - Posted - 06/07/2012: 09:19:27
I would never worry about a great conversion holding or rising in value.
Especially the whole package (original tenor neck and case) and history(buying the original,complete tenor that I knew of for over 20 years,prior) and having Jimmy Cox do the work with his neck,ring and lathe.
This banjo means much more to me than a new Gibson would because of the people involved in me ending up with this marvelous banjo.
Wicked lucky.
Edited by - steve davis on 06/07/2012 09:26:23
lazyarcher - Posted - 06/07/2012: 13:37:53
quote:
Originally posted by banjoez
A good used modern Gibson or any Stelling will hold it's value based on a reasonable purchase price. The Stelling for it's impeccable craftsmanship and Gibson because it is a Gibson. Now if you paid retail new you may not have a lot of room for growth but recently some are selling for more than what they cost new. They have both stood the test of time and are always in demand by someone. The big unknown is whether Gibson will return to the banjo building business in the USA or not. If not then all bets are off on how they will appreciate. Yates and Hubers should do well in the short term as they are highly in demand though by superseding the older generation designs (i.e. Vintage rings vs the new improved HR-30) kind of hurts the value of the older ones.
As far as conversions go, simple TB to RB conversions will always do well. Now when you get to non-Mastertone conversions is where I have always questioned the motivation and the pricing. By the time you modify the rim and install a modern ring and replace the original neck what do you really have? I know the argument for using an old rim has its merits and makes a fine banjo but as far as keeping it's value or being collectible I'm not sure. A modern Gibson can sound pretty good and it's all there from the start.
More great objective advice, especially defining value vs collectability. Most any instrument will hold value depending on what you paid for it. Hubers and Yates and Hatfields...all will probably hold value, but will they become collectable?? Hard to say, but not likely...at least not to the masses. Gibson will likely hold more value as a collector just because they command a bigger audience.
Prewar stuff is a different ball game. Mastertones generally have more value and collectability than non-mastertones. All original models hold more value and collectability than modified versions. Conversions always seem to hold value as players, but not always valuable to collectors. People want them now because of the prewar fad, but who knows down the road?
steve davis - Posted - 06/07/2012: 14:48:39
I believe my conversion will always be worth more than an original tb2.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 06/07/2012: 15:07:42
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
Or buy a pre war tenor at the right price and have it converted for the right price.
Steve,
Or buy an one-of-a-kind custom built top-of-the-rank tenor from the 20s - have it restored to pristine condition by a specialized master luthier - and find out/document its complete provenance - doing so you can triple or quadruple its value.
I´ve done so more than once. Do f.ex. have a look at this beauty: acoustudio.dk/BD%20Silver%20Be...28829.htm
Only - you´ll have to know exactly what to go for - plus have the funds needed at hand. By funds I mean plenty bucks - plenty - LOL!
Polle
gkella - Posted - 06/07/2012: 15:37:07
I have the first Bishline banjo that Rob Bishline put up for sale.
It is a Classic model with serial number 005.
I am hoping one day...
Glen
steve davis - Posted - 06/07/2012: 20:11:41
I don't have to spend very much to fulfill my banjo goals.
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
Or buy a pre war tenor at the right price and have it converted for the right price.
Steve,
Or buy an one-of-a-kind custom built top-of-the-rank tenor from the 20s - have it restored to pristine condition by a specialized master luthier - and find out/document its complete provenance - doing so you can triple or quadruple its value.
I´ve done so more than once. Do f.ex. have a look at this beauty: acoustudio.dk/BD%20Silver%20Be...28829.htm
Only - you´ll have to know exactly what to go for - plus have the funds needed at hand. By funds I mean plenty bucks - plenty - LOL!
Polle
Cleitus - Posted - 06/08/2012: 08:02:44
What makes me wonder is the thought that any really good banjo will be played to death sooner or later. Sure you can do a certain number of repairs, refrets etc. but eventually it aint the same/too much is changed or replaced. So future immaculate banjos (baring the odd closet veteran) will be cheap as they are not wanted, while the tatty old ones will be less and less authentic due to repairs hence progressively less valuable. So I think I've just proved that virtually NO banjo brands will hold their values! dang! we'll just have to go off how good they sound.
saltcreek - Posted - 06/08/2012: 20:40:04
PPo is right quality is key, I think Prucha , Ome , Stelling
Darcy - Posted - 06/08/2012: 21:16:44
Wood. Look for those banjos with neck and rims made of wood that will simply be impossible to buy in the very near future.
Just listen to Bob Taylor talk about ebony.
Edited by - Darcy on 06/08/2012 21:17:19
stanger - Posted - 06/09/2012: 13:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by lazyarcher
quote:
Originally posted by banjoez
A good used modern Gibson or any Stelling will hold it's value based on a reasonable purchase price. The Stelling for it's impeccable craftsmanship and Gibson because it is a Gibson. Now if you paid retail new you may not have a lot of room for growth but recently some are selling for more than what they cost new. They have both stood the test of time and are always in demand by someone. The big unknown is whether Gibson will return to the banjo building business in the USA or not. If not then all bets are off on how they will appreciate. Yates and Hubers should do well in the short term as they are highly in demand though by superseding the older generation designs (i.e. Vintage rings vs the new improved HR-30) kind of hurts the value of the older ones.
As far as conversions go, simple TB to RB conversions will always do well. Now when you get to non-Mastertone conversions is where I have always questioned the motivation and the pricing. By the time you modify the rim and install a modern ring and replace the original neck what do you really have? I know the argument for using an old rim has its merits and makes a fine banjo but as far as keeping it's value or being collectible I'm not sure. A modern Gibson can sound pretty good and it's all there from the start.
More great objective advice, especially defining value vs collectability. Most any instrument will hold value depending on what you paid for it. Hubers and Yates and Hatfields...all will probably hold value, but will they become collectable?? Hard to say, but not likely...at least not to the masses. Gibson will likely hold more value as a collector just because they command a bigger audience.
Prewar stuff is a different ball game. Mastertones generally have more value and collectability than non-mastertones. All original models hold more value and collectability than modified versions. Conversions always seem to hold value as players, but not always valuable to collectors. People want them now because of the prewar fad, but who knows down the road?
Buying a new banjo is a lot like buying a new car. Selling one that is a couple of years old and lightly played can sometimes return the cost to the original buyer and sometimes the first buyer has to take a hit to sell it. Really a lot depends on the relative rarity of the banjo, how devoted the brand's buyers are, and the amount of use and condition of the instrument. An expensive used banjo depends a lot on how expensive and how used.
An example of a banjo that would retain almost all of it's original price would be a Stelling Scrimshaw. In ways similar to the best pre-wars, a Scrimshaw was moon and stars expensive when new, hasn't been made for many years now, is made of top quality materials, and is very rare. For folks who don't like Stellings, it could be considered gaudy, but for Stelling fans, it's got all the stuff that gets their motor running.
Given enough time, any brand transitions from used to vintage. Once that happens, the sale of a top quality banjo will depend much more on the tastes of younger generations of players more than the inherent quality of the banjo. A good example of this are the old Epiphone Recording models of the late 20's-early 30's. They were all extremely high quality, had all the right stuff for the market they were built for, and were very expensive. And, they were almost all tenors and plectrums.
Making an accurate 5-string conversion neck for an Epiphone DeLuxe or Emperor is next to impossible now. The Brazilian rosewood used for the neck is super expensive, if a neck blank can be found, and their pearloid boards were all hand engraved and colored, adding a ton to the cost of a neck. The carved heel and the wood purfling on the necks also adds high cost, and some of the purfling would have to be hand made to duplicate it.
Although the arched top tone ring used on them is a really good sounding tone system, arch tops are not big sellers these days. Pearloid fingerboards may be a passing fancy today. And no professional 5-string banjoist has played an Epi for a long time now.
So- buying a DeLuxe and converting it would amount to buying a neck that cost at least twice as much as the banjo, and trying to sell it as a 5-string would be an exercise in futility because relatively few players would want to own it for the money invested. While the tone of the banjo may be appealing to a buyer who is willing to commit the bucks into making one a 5-string, this is a good example of buying vintage for the love of that particular brand with the intention of keeping it forever. As an intended investment, it isn't worth doodley squat as a 5-string.
I could have purchased one, back in the 80's, for $250. Back then, if I had been able to dig up a good neck maker, I could have had an accurate repro neck made without being a budget buster for the next decade. I knew a couple of guys who could have done the work back then, too. But even so, I realized that if I was to spend the money, the total cost would have approached the cost of a number of new banjos I liked as much, so I passed on the deal. I still am not sure if I did the right thing or not, but I know interest in the Recording models never rose among the 5-string players in the decades that have followed. And, at $250, I'll never see another with a price that low again. Tenor players still like 'em and buy them, but at prices that haven't risen much for many years.
regards,
stanger
Charles in SC - Posted - 06/09/2012: 18:47:37
quote:
Originally posted by banjo-oz
quote:
Originally posted by Charles in SC
I have been an Ibanez fan for 15 years. I have 2 of them, one with a Buck tone ring that is as good a sounding banjo as there is out there. With that said they have kept up price wise with the Gibsons as well as the others maybe even better than some. Something else to think about is that you can own two or three of them for the price of a Gibson.
Charles do your Ibanez banjos have the multi laminated rims still on them a lot of people seem to criticise them. I must admit when I first had mine and got to know enough about what to expect from a banjo my artist was a bit dead but after a bit of setting up properly a clear plastic head and a Fults tailpiece (cos the inferior Ibanez one broke) it rings out loud now, (I felt that the Fults tailpiece made the most notable difference to the extra volume!).
For the other members I notice no one has mentioned the Bishlines so far as was asked in the original query?
If I understand it, the question from the OP was about Ibanez banjos. Both of my Ibanez have the original rims, I think they are like 13 ply or something like that.. I have smooth plastic heads on them both. I also have owned a couple of great Gibsons, (2 Granadas and a Gold Sparkle)
I would say the one with the Buck tone ring will put them all to shame, but every one likes a different sound and what mine is may not be for every one. By the way the one with the original tone ring, I keep at work and have played an average of an hour a day for maybe 10 years so I have a pretty good idea of what kind of quality it is. I bought it on Ebay for $500. So, ten years playing and it is maybe now worth $900. You do the math. What was a used Granada worth ten years ago verses now. I put a Fults on my Gold Sparkle and could not tell a difference.
Edited by - Charles in SC on 06/09/2012 18:51:24
Gymbal31 - Posted - 06/10/2012: 08:32:50
quote:
Originally posted by Charles in SC
I would say the one with the Buck tone ring will put them all to shame
That Buck Tone Ring is a sleeper, I think. I've got one on my blonde Gibson RB, added a skinny Emerson bridge and it has people wondering how I get such great sound out of that banjo.
Collectibility of an instrument will be based on Quantity and Quality. Is anybody collecting old Kay banjos or Supertones? Remember when everyone was going nuts over Beanie Babies? I worked at a K-Mart at the end of high school, beginning of college in the early and mid eighties. In the toy department. At one point, we had so many of the Star Wars figures, we put them all on clearance, 2 for a $1. Those things sell now, in the package, anywhere from $35 to $500 a piece, depending on the character.
Anyway, my point is, prewar flathead Mastertones are so valuable because they are scarce and they have the quality top musicians want. I don't think any current banjo will ever reach that level of collectibility.
Porter Claxton - Posted - 06/17/2012: 11:07:13
Depends who you are selling to. Someone who has a predetermined preference will favor that cretain brand. A collector will be looking for a banjo that has a particular name (i.e. Gibson) or a unique feature, such as a low serial number or one-of-a-kind characteristic. If your selling to a dealer, he may be looking at popularity and condition of the instrument. If you are selling to a musician, that's a different story. An experienced musician wants an instrument that sounds good and plays easily. He / she realizes that there are good and bad with every brand and that even a hobbiest can turn out a wonderful instrument if the maker is a qualified craftsman. I know top notch musicians that own and play Gibsons, Neats, Deerings, Great lakes, Orpheums, Omes, conversions, kits, etc. and they sound terrific.
minstrelmike - Posted - 06/17/2012: 11:22:07
If you had asked this questions in the 1920s, the most popular answers would have all been wrong and the correct answer would not be believable.
Same old same old as far as I can see about predicting the future.
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