"It would be interesting to hear what you have learned from Dwight Diller."
What I learned from Dwight Diller, Jack White, and every other musician that I admire is this..........play with feeling and make it count. Perhaps you know what I am taking about, but just in case you don't here is an example.
Been around a long time. Learned a few things, and got to know a lot of people. One of the things I discovered is that a wise man or woman never issues nor accepts a challenge. It is a sign of weakness, insecurity and fragile ego.
laughable. i'm not challenging you, i'm asking that you share your music with us who you have deemed in need of your supposed expertise. if you think you can be argumentative, condescending, and insulting while supposing to HOLD FORTH and EDUCATE people and not be asked to demonstrate your own proficiency in the subject at hand, than you are most certainly not wise. bona fide people, such as Dwight Diller, would never act like that.
"Play it with feeling and make it count." I couldn't agree more. That's how to play and sing old time music.
That's what I always set out to do, no matter what kind of music I'm playing, and it's also what I think I succeeded in doing in this old time song (which is, incidentally my own original version, both in the tuning, how it's played and the lyrics - so, as you can see, I'm not a hide-bound traditionalist, though I do feel that this falls squarely into the tradition of coming up with your own version of any old time tune you play):
i'm not challenging you, i'm asking that you share your music with us who you have deemed in need of your supposed expertise. if you think you can be argumentative, condescending, and insulting while supposing to HOLD FORTH and EDUCATE people and not be asked to demonstrate your own proficiency in the subject at hand, than you are most certainly not wise.
-Justin
I'm no fan of JT's manner of debate. But I do feel compelled to respond to this line of thinking. JT's views may, or may not be, worthwhile regardless of whether he can play. Indeed, many times folks who can't do something well themselves can, because of distance and other considerations, hear and see things that others cannot. Pauline Kael comes to mine. She was no actress, but that doesn't mean she wasn't a brilliant film critic.
Been around a long time. Learned a few things, and got to know a lot of people. One of the things I discovered is that a wise man or woman never issues nor accepts a challenge. It is a sign of weakness, insecurity and fragile ego.
Here's some wisdom: The great French writer Andre Gide said: Let them be right. That's all they can be. He also said: Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
I propose at this point that we just declare you to be right. Give and take doesn't seem to be your thing.
Been around a long time. Learned a few things, and got to know a lot of people. One of the things I discovered is that a wise man or woman never issues nor accepts a challenge. It is a sign of weakness, insecurity and fragile ego.
In the light of your thread title posted on a banjo players forum and your (apparently) passionate views on the subject a polite suggestion that it would be interesting to hear you gets regarded as 'a challenge'? So that leaves any 'point' you are making resting squarely on Jack White's rendition of 'Wayfaring Stranger'? Utterly baffling.
And possibly a more helpful maxim is that a wise man or woman doesn't present unsupported opinions as incontrovertible fact.
I will address this to you, but it is meant for all. If some of you folks don't like what I have to say, stay off of the threads I start. This is a simple and elegant solution. Just don't click on my threads, and you will be happy, and no longer baffled or confused by the concepts I present.
if you're saying something _wrong_ in public, I feel a need to address it.
Otherwise, by my silence and obvious participation in threads elsewhere on this site, I would be complicit in your spreading of misinformation. Jerry Sandusky of Penn State is a predator, but he wouldn't have gone on for 25 years without the complicit silence of others.
Sorry dude, but you don't get silence from me.
In fact, I'll paint you with connotations from whatever brush I choose.
Welcome to the internet (It's got nothing to do with banjos and everything to do with human behavior).
I will address this to you, but it is meant for all. If some of you folks don't like what I have to say, stay off of the threads I start. This is a simple and elegant solution. Just don't click on my threads, and you will be happy, and no longer baffled or confused by the concepts I present.
So just to clarify...only those who agree with your opinions are welcome on threads you start? An interesting revision to the Hangouts posting policy and one that I'm sure by definition would become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
How to play old time music: I'm figuring it out everyday. I love to listen to both old & new musicians- I learn what tends to grab me & I play as best as I can. I don't try to copy anyone - I'm just not good at doing that like other folks are. Everyone has their own tastes & capabilities, & I've got mine. I make stuff up that I like to play- some people like it, some don't - hey that's the way it goes. I'm trying to enjoy as much of all this music as I can while I'm living on the planet, and I'm sure having a good time - that's what it's about.
How to play old time music: I'm figuring it out everyday. I love to listen to both old & new musicians- I learn what tends to grab me & I play as best as I can. I don't try to copy anyone - I'm just not good at doing that like other folks are. Everyone has their own tastes & capabilities, & I've got mine. I make stuff up that I like to play- some people like it, some don't - hey that's the way it goes. I'm trying to enjoy as much of all this music as I can while I'm living on the planet, and I'm sure having a good time - that's what it's about.
One of the best things about old-time music is that there's no set way to play it. In the words of Blind Boy Paxton, "You don't even have to be good, you just have to not suck."
I don't think you have the power to do that. If you could I am sure you would. The funny thing is that you cannot see, and yet you hold me responsible. A paradigm upgrade would help.
Minstrel Mike:
In your above post you just compared me to Jerry Sandusky. This is a new low for you and a new low for this forum. Apparently some of you would like to continue pushing until i blow up and say something that will get me banned. It is not going to happen.
And........that's all for now. See you folks on my next thread. It promises to be even more interesting than this one. Give you folks many opportunities to get your panties in a bunch. Be there or be square.
I don't think you have the power to do that. If you could I am sure you would.
Well, when you suggested that folks who don't like what you have to say stay off your threads, that would mean just about everyone, so it is unnecessary to kick you off.... you've pretty much made yourself into a persona non grata all on your own.
Even if I had the power to kick you off I wouldn't... I'd keep you around for comic relief. Except for misleading the unwary, you're a fairly harmless individual and who knows? If you keep coming back you may eventually learn something about this music and yourself... apologies accepted in advance.
Until you bring your circus to town again, take care.
Not so. I have answered simple and complex questions. If you don't understand the answers, there is nothing I can do.
I would ask that you not attribute quotes to me that I did not make...not in any single response to this thread did I make this statement...you obviously feel comfortable lying about the content of my posts, if you want to respond to what I have written fine, but I am not appreciative of you making up FALSE statements regarding my contributions to this forum...save your condescending and trite answers for actual posts, exhibit some veracity for a change...
Except for misleading the unwary, you're a fairly harmless individual and who knows? If you keep coming back you may eventually learn something about this music and yourself... apologies accepted in advance.
Until you bring your circus to town again, take care.
RD's comment is spot on. Most if not all of us come on here to share and toss ideas around and we have broad shoulders and wry smiles behind our laptops and a willingness and enthusiasm to learn. JT you have every right to express your opinions. That is good. But the manner in which you state your opinions as indisputable fact should be balanced by others with more accommodating and a less proscribing attitude to get the full picture. Would you turn up at a jam and behave this way? Music is for sharing. It's up to you how you deal with this...
I don't think you have the power to do that. If you could I am sure you would. The funny thing is that you cannot see, and yet you hold me responsible. A paradigm upgrade would help.
Minstrel Mike:
In your above post you just compared me to Jerry Sandusky. This is a new low for you and a new low for this forum. Apparently some of you would like to continue pushing until i blow up and say something that will get me banned. It is not going to happen.
And........that's all for now. See you folks on my next thread. It promises to be even more interesting than this one. Give you folks many opportunities to get your panties in a bunch. Be there or be square.
Bow wow wow, yippie yo, yippie yay.
Is the feeling I get from this response deja-vu? The goading & sneering flavor coupled to the twisting of statements and childlike tag lines is reminiscent of behavior patterns we've seen before. It's only a feeling and I could be very mistaken, but "bow wow wow, yippie yo yay" just reminded me so much of "chops is chops"
RD
........................... If you keep coming back you may eventually learn something about this music and yourself...........
JTR: I understand that much can get lost or unwittingly communicated in online discussions. I am certainly guilty of this at times. If it is your intention to inform rather than ignite, then it is possible that the format of online discussions doesn't do you any favors. That said, the brevity of your responses and the apparent claims to some sort of revealed knowledge/wisdom don't do anyone any favors either. If you haven't noticed, many folks around here REALLY like to type! I think the expectation is for people who make controversial/unconventional claims to provide some sort of explanation supported by evidence. This isn't peculiar to the BHO, but it is (should be, anyway) a feature of any serious discussion. Another feature is the intended outcome of mutual understanding or respectful disagreement. Agreeing to disagree is totally acceptable, by the way!
One's refusal to agree should mean that they have not been swayed by the argument and/or its accompanying evidence. This goes out to everyone since the burden of proof is on everyone in a public discourse, after all. If the refusal to agree comes merely from stubbornness or unwavering self-certitude, then that is a different story altogether. Does responding "clearly, you are out of touch with reality" or "stop looking in the rearview mirror" to somebody arguing that India Pale Ale should only be made with English yeast actually promote discussion? Nope. (It should, by the way...be made only with English yeast. If you want a real IPA, that is )
It is as St. Thomas Aquinas frequently reminded his students: "Seldom affirm, never deny, always distinguish." Keep this as your standard and arguing can actually be an enjoyable experience! This goes for everyone out there in banjo-land.
Thanks again to all for a (mostly) civil and interesting thread. Not sure we've made it 11 pages without totally deteriorating into a flame-war in a very long time!
I have seem some clips of your singing, and perhaps you could do some self examination before you call Jack White's performance "half assed". Just saying.
as opposed to JTRoberts' oh so sweet clips. which are where exactly?
seriously, i don't understand why anyone here is still bothering to converse with JTRoberts. he hasn't offered a single sound clip or youtube video of himself making the music he is prattling on about, so who cares what he thinks. what kind of self styled expert on OT can't produce an example of their own playing?
-justin
My sentiments exactly since JT talks a great talk about innovation and pushing boundaries and insulting an excellent banjo player like Marc, constantly ( here we go again ) talking down to everyone in the thread....lets hear some of his own innovation lets hear how JT is pushing the boundaries with his own playing and his uniqueness his grand futuristic and stylistic approach to playing the banjo...lets hear what you got JT...post some of your music and then we can decide for ourselves....I think it is time. Most everyone here has videos, posts them for others to listen to and is not shy about their own playing.......educate us about your innovative techniques and banjo playing....lets hear it!!! JT you gooo!!!
I move to say that each contributor of this thread post a video of their own playing to their comment as an attachment...maybe this will encourage young JT to give us a little snippet of his magical futuristic banjo playing powers. This way young JT can thoroughly entertain himself to the full by insulting each and everyone of us simple minded purists Since Marc posted first...here is mine:
Eric, Marc - that was some mighty fine pickin. Enjoyed both videos very much. But what were you were thinking your fine pickin would add to the wisdom of your arguments?
Let's say - hypothetically - JTR posts a recording of himself playing, and let's also say that his playing is really pretty doggone good. Maybe as good as yours - or even better. All hypothetical, ok? But why should anyone believe that such a thing is outside the realm of possibility?
And if he could, does that mean you would cede the argument and change your opinion based on his skill? Would you be willing to admit that his arguments have more merit based on his ability to play a tune on a banjo? No, of course not.
We should be evaluating opinions based on what a person says - and not so much on how well they play. Yes, of course, there are those circumstances where listening to what or how someone plays will play part in a discussion. But I trust you know what I mean...
So, I'm not more persuaded about your opinion because of how well you play, but , seriously, I enjoyed listening to your playing.
Eric, Marc - that was some mighty fine pickin. Enjoyed both videos very much. But what were you were thinking your fine pickin would add to the wisdom of your arguments?
Let's say - hypothetically - JTR posts a recording of himself playing, and let's also say that his playing is really pretty doggone good. Maybe as good as yours - or even better. All hypothetical, ok? But why should anyone believe that such a thing is outside the realm of possibility?
And if he could, does that mean you would cede the argument and change your opinion based on his skill? Would you be willing to admit that his arguments have more merit based on his ability to play a tune on a banjo? No, of course not.
We should be evaluating opinions based on what a person says - and not so much on how well they play. Yes, of course, there are those circumstances where listening to what or how someone plays will play part in a discussion. But I trust you know what I mean...
So, I'm not more persuaded about your opinion because of how well you play, but , seriously, I enjoyed listening to your playing.
I would agree with all the above if it wasn't for the title of this thread combined with the straying into personal criticism. At that point it seems fair game to respond with 'Put up or shut up'. I don't go a bundle on the argument that because it's online there is a different etiquette. No-one would dictate at a jam so why do it here? Discussion yes; diktat no.
First off - let me be quick to apologize for my last statement. I didn't intend to imply that I was critisizing anyone directly. But - the way I worded my statement - it could easily be interpreted that way.
I should have said: "So, I'm not more persuaded about anyone's opinion because of how well they play." I realize that we can't help but be influenced by someone's skill or talent. But our acceptance or refutation of an argument by others should be based on the wisdom of their words and without respect of fame, position, wealth, popularity, good looks, talent, or debating skills. Ideally, the truth should speak for itself.
The title of the OP had to do with the poster's assertion that Jack White is a good example of the right way to sing and play OT music. It wasn't about how well JTR, Marc, erikforgod, or anyone else can do it.
I don't agree with JTR's opinion about the Jack White example either. And even if JTR could play and sing with a perfect, sincere, and soulful recreation of any number of dead master's style and technique - it would not change my opinion concerning how well Jack White does it in the example JTR offered for consideration. So, according to the OP, how JTR - or anyone else other than Jack White - does it is irrelevant to the discussion - imo.
Opinions are just that. Not right, not wrong - just an expression of how someone view's life for themselves.
We can never have a discussion about anything on this forum without it dissolving into screaming and personal attacks.
Yeah. I just found your banjo hangout a short while ago, and assumed it was going to be a bunch of stuff like this. This thread, and the driving personality types behind it, is why I don't generally go to folk or old song festivals, and why I don't call the music I play "old time" or "revival" or any damn thing else. All this time and energy on this? Hell, you'd probably be better off spending it on playing banjo without the internet getting in the way of stuff. I didn't know dock or roscoe or wade or any of them dudes, but I bet they would sit there and hear this jibberjabber and just be confused why anybody would ever talk this way, like a bunch or professors, or like you're lawyerin' for your side to be right. The internet is a great place to find folk's opinions, and that's a certainty.
I just thought "hey" many here contribute with videos, but since JT seems to be preachin from a higher plain about banjo playing and he so distinctly insulted and put down Marcs playing ( which was offensive to me )...I thought "ok" here is a video of me playing just like Marc playing...lets see how you play JT"
I think its fair enough....he talks down to folks and preaches so much...lets hear the man play some music...why not? I am not trying to prove anything, but I am also not here just for the sake of arguing ...I think its fair enough since he insulted Marc the way he did which was totally uncalled for, so I thought "why dont we all post something of all of us playing something and see if JT follows suit" I mean lets hear some music...this is what its all about right? I mean...if he can so pointedly and adeptly insult another members playing...I think its time for him to let us hear his playing
...and, I'll say again, that was some mighty fine pickin.
Now, believe me, I'm not trying to defend JTR - but I wonder how objective anyone's evaluation would be if he did post something. And if he is good, what then? ...and if he stinks, what then? Would any of that change anything in this conversation? I don't see how it would change a thing.
No one should be made to feel that they have to upload a clip in response to being manipulated in order to prove something. Motivation should be - just desire to share.
I'm reminded of the point that was made early in the discussion - over the uselessness of pointing to Grammy awards as evidence which would illustrate the worth of someone's contribution as an artist. I don't see a whole lot of difference here, except for those who would be the judges and what they would be awarding.
And it still wouldn't offer anything to settle the asserion of the OP.
...sorry. I'll stop now. I'm really not trying to make a bigger deal out of this than is needed. Just wanted to point something out that I thought was worth mentioning.
I will add that I didn't post my video as any sort of challenge to anyone to post theirs. My video was illustrative of a point, nothing more nothing less.
And that video is a very clear demonstration of what I personally think is "how to play and sing old time music". Or, at least it's the way of playing and singing old time music that I strive for - you may strive for something completely different. In the particular case illustrated I think I succeeded in getting it just the way I wanted it. I certainly don't always.
I would love to see other people's examples of their take on "how to play and sing old time music".
But I'm completely indifferent as to whether or not the OP posts anything. It will not alter my opinions one bit. While I actually agree with him on some things, and disagree with him on others, I completely deplore the obnoxious manner in which he presents his opinions.
(P.S. Thanks a lot to those of you who have expressed appreciation for my video clip.)
Again I will say...JT may be an excellent player or not...it wasnt really my point. My point was that he constantly preaches and runs his mouth to just about everyone about this "higher plane" of banjo zen that he seems to be looking down upon all of us from, such lofty banjo heights...well enough with that...lets hear the man play some music. Most folks here on the BHO are pretty open we know things about them, who they are, we get to hear/see their progress with the banjo...everyone shares and contributes. But then JT comes and he just bloviates and preaches and whines about this and that and creates his own magical standards of OT music, how to sing it and how to play it..well thats fine but who is this guy? Does he really want to be a part of the BHO or does he have other motives? Is he a troll or the real thing? Well it would be nice to see if he is just full of bunk and hot air or if the man really ACTUALLY plays...I for one ( not the only one ) have asked him to let us hear...I think it is a fair question no?
Since he made a derrogatory comment about Marcs playing I think he has opened himself up to be "fair game" to be asked to let others hear the way HE plays and make a decision for themselves whether they believe he had any merit to judge the way Marc plays or interprets the way he sings at all.
)
