I have to admit to being delighted to find a discussion of William Blake here! He is one of my favorite artists and poets. If he was around today, I'm sure that he would both play the banjo, AND be a big fan of Jack White! (sorry, could not resist).
Personally I’m against barbed-wire fences around Old Time or any other genre. A lot of what is now “Old Time” was once somebody trying to do something new. The first American musician to play folk music of the British Isles on a banjo – was he (or she) a traditionalist or an innovator?
Of course they were innovating - but how far did they get trying to convince everyone else that it wasn't different and was simply traditional British Isles folk music? And in the same vein why isn't Old Joe Clarke a Morris dance?
I have to admit to being delighted to find a discussion of William Blake here! He is one of my favorite artists and poets. If he was around today, I'm sure that he would both play the banjo, AND be a big fan of Jack White! (sorry, could not resist).
Whooa...if William Blake ever played the banjo he'd probably have done it naked in his garden. No kidding.
"Personally I am against barbed-wire fences around OT music or any other genre. A lot of what is now "Old Time" was once somebody trying to do something new".
Exactly right. Many of the players of OT, Western Classical music, blues, etc. were innovators and perhaps ahead of their time. They were willing to go beyond the norm and the status quo. However, at least in the US, much of the OT community looks through the rearview mirror, and does not embrace innovation. Music and all life evolves and moves forward. No one can hold it back.
JT an interesting take on the thread and one I'm not qualified or informed enough to make. And this would widen my question about change waaaay further than I was intending. The 'change' I'm querying is probably better described as 'adoption' as it's really about whether there is a process within OT of accepting new tunes played in the traditional style. In my view innovation would lead to the form becoming 'something else'; new songs about contemporary issues in the traditional style wouldn't.
"Personally I am against barbed-wire fences around OT music or any other genre. A lot of what is now "Old Time" was once somebody trying to do something new".
Exactly right. Many of the players of OT, Western Classical music, blues, etc. were innovators and perhaps ahead of their time. They were willing to go beyond the norm and the status quo. However, at least in the US, much of the OT community looks through the rearview mirror, and does not embrace innovation. Music and all life evolves and moves forward. No one can hold it back.
This statement is made without any basis in fact in regards to OT music...if it were true, than why did so many older players pattern their playing styles after older musicians?
Clyde Davenport tried to emulate Leonard Rutherford, Emmett Lundy tried to play like Green Leonard (and in fact took pride in the fact that he could EXACTLY like Green...when he wanted to), Tommy Jarrell trying to play like his dad Ben, Dock Boggs patterned his playing after itinerant older African-American musicians, Homer Crawford and his brother Roscoe, Jim Bowles learned to play primarily like his uncle Wash Carter, Wade Ward playing like his older brother Crockett...etc. etc. etc.
If there was any conscious inclination to go beyond the norm and status qou, I certainly find no historical precedence for it...indeed, the overwhelming majority of the older players started their playing careers trying to replicate the playing tradition of older musicians that they admired. The "innovation" in their playing came from their own musical genius being imparted through a thoroughly established foundation of older music that preceded them; their own "style" filtered through older music that they were immersed in...while they may have incorporated newer styles of music into their playing, their playing was still rooted deep in the tradition of the older musicians they were trying to emulate. Listen to Tommy Jarrell's version of "Sugarfoot Rag", a tune written and recorded by Hank Garland in 1949...when Tommy plays it you would swear it was written in 1849...because his playing style is firmly rooted in the musical tradition of past generations...he's not "trying" to push the envelope, he's just playing like he knew how, his playing is not a casual affectation (like Jack White's attempt at OT) in any sense of the word...
...and why is it so crucial to this conversation that Jack White's version of "Wayfaring Stranger" has to be classified as OT? Why not just call his efforts in this genre "modern folk", "folk rock", "new OT" or something like that...what's the big deal about the OT label that it MUST be applied to what he is doing...Bluegrass is just an extension of OT music, lot's of common songs shared between the genres, but we don't call BG OT we call it Bluegrass...why not another name for whatever it is that Jack White is doing with "Wayfaring Stranger"? Why is it so important that it be classified as OT?
Dan Gellert once told me that to sound like yourself, pick a particular player who you really admire and try to replicate their sound...in the course of doing so you will find your own style and voice on whatever instrument it is that you are playing...that was the soundest bit of musical advice I have ever heard...and lies at the crux of this particular conversation...OT is not casual music, if you're not neck deep in it, as others have said, you're playing something new...no matter how you spin it...
Folks To quote Huey Lewis "Sometimes Bad means bad."
Instead of getting all into the "authenticity" of this performance, first take a listen to it - then compare it with Lee Hayes singing the same song. Notice how Hayes stays on the right pitch. Then mark the way he stays in time. Now go back to Black. Pitch? Wandering at best. Rhythm, dragging and dull.
It isn't about any tradition. The fact is that this is simply a very bad rendering of a great tune.
And yes I DO mean "rendering" he seems to have put it through the kind of crusher they use to make Pink Slime.
Change is the nature of life. Everything is in motion, nothing stands still. However, the purists want to take a snapshot of a moment in time, and continually relive that moment. If that is truly your desire, then please enjoy it.
jtroberts...you continue to miss the point...which isn't surprising considering some of your other posts which promote argument for the sake for the argument, but I'll play along so here goes...I'm fine with change and I like all kinds of music, my music collection is probably more eclectic than most thanks to my almost 25 years in the music industry and my love of all types of music...but traditional arts are just that...based in tradition...and OT music is a traditional art...once you step outside of that tradition and change it, the music becomes something else, so just call it something else, don't call it OT because...it isn't...Jack White certainly isn't the only culprit here, but he's the most obvious in this thread...
In Jamaica there are numerous styles of music that share a common denominator, but no Jamaican that I know would refer to Ska, Rocksteady, Dub or Dancehall as simply "Reggae". When musicians started changing the old tunes in the early 1940's and incorporating structural muscial elements of traditional jazz into the OT musical canon, those musicians didn't call their music OT, they called it Bluegrass...and nobody even thought to argue about that, the music had changed to the point that it was fundamentally different than the music it was derived from and so it was given a different name to differentiate it...kind of obvious don't you think?
I always point to the playing of Marc Nerenberg in these types of discussions...and I know Marc doesn't care about musical classifications, nor does he claim to care about, or be an "OT" musician...fair enough...but his music always sounds OT, because somewhere down the line in his musical journey he absorbed and incorporated OT rhythms, tone and timing in his playing...even when he plays a Dylan tune, or a blues tune, or whatever, his playing sounds like it is anachronistic to me (and that is a good thing to my ears)...you can incorporate new material into the genre, but play it in a traditional way (see my last post regarding Tommy Jarrell and "Sugarfoot Rag") or your music simply isn't OT; it's not necessarily unworthy...it's just not "OT"...not resisting change in the least, just recognizing that Jack White is a whole lot different than Riley Puckett in regards to rhythm, tone and timing...
One last thought, you use a photo of RL Burnside as your avatar...so I assume you like Mississippi hill country blues...would you consider Kenny Wayne Shepard, John Mayer or Blues Traveler to be classified as real hill country "blues" artists on a par with Mr. Burnside, Fred McDowell or Junior Kimbrough...??? I didn't think so...do the math with Jack White's version of "Wayfaring Stranger"...it's kind of obvious...even if someone wants to be a contrarian...
"Personally I am against barbed-wire fences around OT music or any other genre. A lot of what is now "Old Time" was once somebody trying to do something new".
Exactly right. Many of the players of OT, Western Classical music, blues, etc. were innovators and perhaps ahead of their time. They were willing to go beyond the norm and the status quo. However, at least in the US, much of the OT community looks through the rearview mirror, and does not embrace innovation. Music and all life evolves and moves forward. No one can hold it back.
This statement is made without any basis in fact in regards to OT music...if it were true, than why did so many older players pattern their playing styles after older musicians?
Clyde Davenport tried to emulate Leonard Rutherford, Emmett Lundy tried to play like Green Leonard (and in fact took pride in the fact that he could EXACTLY like Green...when he wanted to), Tommy Jarrell trying to play like his dad Ben, Dock Boggs patterned his playing after itinerant older African-American musicians, Homer Crawford and his brother Roscoe, Jim Bowles learned to play primarily like his uncle Wash Carter, Wade Ward playing like his older brother Crockett...etc. etc. etc.
If there was any conscious inclination to go beyond the norm and status qou, I certainly find no historical precedence for it...indeed, the overwhelming majority of the older players started their playing careers trying to replicate the playing tradition of older musicians that they admired. The "innovation" in their playing came from their own musical genius being imparted through a thoroughly established foundation of older music that preceded them; their own "style" filtered through older music that they were immersed in...while they may have incorporated newer styles of music into their playing, their playing was still rooted deep in the tradition of the older musicians they were trying to emulate. Listen to Tommy Jarrell's version of "Sugarfoot Rag", a tune written and recorded by Hank Garland in 1949...when Tommy plays it you would swear it was written in 1849...because his playing style is firmly rooted in the musical tradition of past generations...he's not "trying" to push the envelope, he's just playing like he knew how, his playing is not a casual affectation (like Jack White's attempt at OT) in any sense of the word...
...and why is it so crucial to this conversation that Jack White's version of "Wayfaring Stranger" has to be classified as OT? Why not just call his efforts in this genre "modern folk", "folk rock", "new OT" or something like that...what's the big deal about the OT label that it MUST be applied to what he is doing...Bluegrass is just an extension of OT music, lot's of common songs shared between the genres, but we don't call BG OT we call it Bluegrass...why not another name for whatever it is that Jack White is doing with "Wayfaring Stranger"? Why is it so important that it be classified as OT?
Dan Gellert once told me that to sound like yourself, pick a particular player who you really admire and try to replicate their sound...in the course of doing so you will find your own style and voice on whatever instrument it is that you are playing...that was the soundest bit of musical advice I have ever heard...and lies at the crux of this particular conversation...OT is not casual music, if you're not neck deep in it, as others have said, you're playing something new...no matter how you spin it...
For me, RG's above post sums up the situation very well.
Emulating a model, or patterning your playing after a particular player is not the same thing as freezing the music with note-for-note imitations of given tunes. RG's quote of Dan Gellert's advice is sage.
Personally, I never tried to imitate any particular player. My goal has been to play my own way within the parameters of what I perceive as traditional clawhammer style, and that actually gives one a good amount of latitude. Most "traditionalists" end up with a similar product. Most of our playing is easily differentiated, and has our own stamp. OT is, has been, and will likely remain a fringe music. Even so, it is still a living music and remains relevant to many modern lives.
JTRoberts:
OWC and RD:
Change is the nature of life. Everything is in motion, nothing stands still. However, the purists want to take a snapshot of a moment in time, and continually relive that moment. If that is truly your desire, then please enjoy it.
JT; I think you may be confusing "purists" with recreators. There are folks for example who dress in period clothing and play fairly strict renditions of tunes to be found in the mid-19th century banjo literature. This approach is more the "snapshot in time" you speak of... and for the record I consider that a valid and very valuable approach.
As for myself, the only moments I want to relive are the ones I've spent with my Dad and friends and relatives who are gone now, and who live on in the music I inherited from them. Perhaps you find this too stifling or see no value in it. A lot of folks would agree with you.
Abigail Washburn, who is a superb clawhammer banjo player, singer, and song writer is fluent in Chinese. In concert she likes to surprise the audience by singing some tunes in Chinese. She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts. And.........she doesn't just sing mountain songs. This is OT music moving forward into new territory.
...In Jamaica there are numerous styles of music that share a common denominator, but no Jamaican that I know would refer to Ska, Rocksteady, Dub or Dancehall as simply "Reggae". When musicians started changing the old tunes in the early 1940's and incorporating structural muscial elements of traditional jazz into the OT musical canon, those musicians didn't call their music OT, they called it Bluegrass...and nobody even thought to argue about that, the music had changed to the point that it was fundamentally different than the music it was derived from and so it was given a different name to differentiate it...kind of obvious don't you think?...
Just to be clear, the musicians of the time did NOT call it bluegrass. They didn't call it Old-Time either.
All those names were applied first by critics who needed a name and were either picked up by listeners and the name became popular or some other name became popular.
I don't know if that distinction is important or not but I have a feeling it points to certain issues of perspective on the forming, naming, and preservation of various genres.
Abigail Washburn, who is a superb clawhammer banjo player, singer, and song writer is fluent in Chinese. In concert she likes to surprise the audience by singing some tunes in Chinese. She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts. And.........she doesn't just sing mountain songs. This is OT music moving forward into new territory.
Abigail Washburn's style and technique are pure Old Time - that she happens to sometimes sing in Chinese takes nothing away from the Old Time character of her music. I think she's truly wonderful - including her most recent forays into blending her old time style with modern electronics.
I think what she does is exactly the opposite of what Jack White does in the clip you posted. She takes old time technique - and superb singing - and applies it to all kinds of music. She's creating something new using old tools.
Jack White, on the other hand, merely took an old time song, and sang it fairly poorly.
He didn't do anything new and interesting.
He didn't apply old techniques to something new or new technique to something old.
He just gave a half-assed performance of a song that has been performed much much better by lots of people on many occasions. It was a pretty poor example to post as a model for how to play and sing old time music. There was nothing there worth emulating. (By the way, there's plenty of stuff that Jack White has done that I do like. This particular performance of this particular song, however, was merely mediocre, at best.)
Abigail Washburn, who is a superb clawhammer banjo player, singer, and song writer is fluent in Chinese. In concert she likes to surprise the audience by singing some tunes in Chinese. She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts. And.........she doesn't just sing mountain songs. This is OT music moving forward into new territory.
Abigail Washburn's style and technique are pure Old Time - that she happens to sometimes sing in Chinese takes nothing away from the Old Time character of her music. I think she's truly wonderful - including her most recent forays into blending her old time style with modern electronics.
Exactly right. And to add a bit, I doubt that very many audience members are "surprised" by Abby singing in Chinese. Her work in Chinese has been known, and appreciated, for several years now. Certainly her work and talent has been appreciated by BHO members for quite some time.
By the way, Abby lived in Burlington, Vermont for a few years before she moved to Nashville. I remember her busking on Church Street.
Abigail Washburn has taken OT roots and stretched it beyond the boundaries and barbed wire. It is sometimes OT and sometimes much much more.
And........you may not like Jack White's performance and dislike his singing ability. However, I have seem some clips of your singing, and perhaps you could do some self examination before you call Jack White's performance "half assed". Just saying.
Abigail Washburn has taken OT roots and stretched it beyond the boundaries and barbed wire. It is sometimes OT and sometimes much much more.
And........you may not like Jack White's performance and dislike his singing ability. However, I have seem some clips of your singing, and perhaps you could do some self examination before you call Jack White's performance "half assed". Just saying.
Abigail Washburn has taken OT roots and stretched it into something other than old time music. Personally, i generally prefer listening to that something else (whatever one may call it) to listening to real Old Time music itself. In the same way, I will often put on Sarah Jarosz (who's done a similar building of something new on old time roots) rather than listening to Old Time music per se.
Of course, that doesn't make what they do actually OT, nor does what they do show the way to "play and sing OT music" - it's something different (and something that I acknowledge that I prefer to OT in many ways). But my personal preferences don't diminish the value of real OT one bit, and which the music you have cited in this thread simply is not.
As for your comment on the worth of my music - I am not holding what I've done out as a paragon of "how to play and sing old time music" as you have with Mr. White's performance on the clip you posted. If that's really the way to do it, as you claim, I would expect a performance of rather higher quality than the one you've chosen.
(It's also completely uncalled for to make negative remarks about the performances of another BHO member- and possibly against the rules. I have said nothing about your performances - I merely criticized a performance by someone else that you have held out as an example of how it should be done. there's nothing illegitimate in criticizing such on the basis of it not being a particularly stellar example of what you are purporting to talk about.)
And here I was agreeing with you about Abigail Washburn, and about to add reference to Sarah Jarosz in the same vein. I must remember to refrain from ever responding to you again.
Just to be clear, the musicians of the time did NOT call it bluegrass. They didn't call it Old-Time either.
All those names were applied first by critics who needed a name and were either picked up by listeners and the name became popular or some other name became popular.
I don't know if that distinction is important or not but I have a feeling it points to certain issues of perspective on the forming, naming, and preservation of various genres.
What do you make of this?
Uncle Jimmy Thompson (1848 - 2/17/1931) recorded this in 1926.
Abigail Washburn has taken OT roots and stretched it beyond the boundaries and barbed wire. It is sometimes OT and sometimes much much more.
And........you may not like Jack White's performance and dislike his singing ability. However, I have seem some clips of your singing, and perhaps you could do some self examination before you call Jack White's performance "half assed". Just saying.
Uncalled for, and an unjust treatment of a well-traveled and innovative musician. I am confused once again.
I think Marc responded admirably. I'll leave it at that.
Rules are enforced in an rather interesting fashion around here. Old woodchuck can make repeated and caustic comments about the playing and teaching of Dwight Diller, and few say anything.
I only mentioned your performance in comparison to Jack White's. You called his "half assed". So I am just curious, If Jack's performance is "half assed" how would you describe your own singing and performing in comparison. A fair question I think.
"Just to be clear, the musicians of the time did NOT call it bluegrass. They didn't call it Old-Time either.
All those names were applied first by critics who needed a name and were either picked up by listeners and the name became popular or some other name became popular.
I don't know if that distinction is important or not but I have a feeling it points to certain issues of perspective on the forming, naming, and preservation of various genres."
Better check your facts on this one minstrelmike...the term "old time music" was common vernacular amongst people very early on, there are many interviews of older musicians and people who reference "old time music" or "old timey", or folks who played "the old tunes" to differentiate that music from more modern styles...
Here's a few quick examples...
"The way it was with me, I just grew up and it seemed like I had a feelin' in me when I'd hear this old-time music." - Hobart Smith
"Now, I call my style of banjer pickin' the old-timey rappin' style." - Hobart Smith
"He was one of Kentucky's finest old-time fiddlers." - Bill Monroe
"In the summertime, the old time musicians would gather on our plank porch and John played the fiddle. The music they made stopped travelers on the road to listen." - Gladys Connelly, neighbor to John Salyer
"You could get some really good old time fiddling." - Mel Durham
"I play old time music" - Lee Sexton
And here's one fore the BG'ers...
"I've played with Clayton (McMichen), and after Clayton left the Grand Ole Orpy and went to Louisville, he come back down here and talked with me about bluegrass music" - Bill Monroe
...and I'll leave you with one more, not directly related but certainly pertinent to a lot of the myths that get perpetuated about "old time" music...
The real secret to how to play and sing old time music is to be found in the underlying message of this video, which, to all appearances, has nothing whatsoever to do with old time music.
Rules are enforced in an rather interesting fashion around here. Old woodchuck can make repeated and caustic comments about the playing and teaching of Dwight Diller, and few say anything.
I only mentioned your performance in comparison to Jack White's. You called his "half assed". So I am just curious, If Jack's performance is "half assed" how would you describe your own singing and performing in comparison. A fair question I think.
So it's really come down to a post like this? That's all you can offer in terms of discussing the topic that you posted? Pathetic...
RG brings up two very good points on his last two posts. The second one I'll let lie for the time being.
As for the first one, note his use of the lower-case "old-time" versus the capitalized "Old-Time". The former has been used by musicians for decades if not centuries. It was borrowed from those same musicians when the recording execs needed a label for the music.
The great musicians are always inclusive, and they are not purists... It is the purists and OT banjo police which hasten the demise... He is not blinded by the myopia of purity.
How do you reconcile this with your admiration for, and advocacy of Dwight Diller's approach?
By the way JT, since you're trotting out Diller again, care to take another stab at the above question as your answer pretty much side-stepped it.
The real secret to how to play and sing old time music is to be found in the underlying message of this video, which, to all appearances, has nothing whatsoever to do with old time music.
Rules are enforced in an rather interesting fashion around here. Old woodchuck can make repeated and caustic comments about the playing and teaching of Dwight Diller, and few say anything.
I only mentioned your performance in comparison to Jack White's. You called his "half assed". So I am just curious, If Jack's performance is "half assed" how would you describe your own singing and performing in comparison. A fair question I think.
#2.
Abigail Washburn, who is a superb clawhammer banjo player, singer, and song writer is fluent in Chinese. In concert she likes to surprise the audience by singing some tunes in Chinese. She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts. And.........she doesn't just sing mountain songs. This is OT music moving forward into new territory.
#1. I agree the rules are interesting, and the application sometimes seem iniquitous; however if you stop & reflect how they are applied its generally in a manner that subtly but surely balances this communities ability to discuss & debate.
It would appear that you missed the censure that OldwoodchuckB received from this community (top of page 7 & the number of likes) which those of us who selected this option knew would make Tony reflect on his style. Tony gets that level of support because in general he’s supportive & knowledgeable, but like all of us fallible too. Your exhibited behaviors would indicate that gentle reminders will be ignored. These behaviors are the general inability to discuss points of difference or to concede the subtleties that illustrate why people have differing opinions and the exhibited need to tell everyone how they are wrong & you are right. You anointed yourself as a “Heyoka”, an English translation for that role is “Fool”
In addition it’s unfair to ask an artist to critique their own work as either they’ll be so narcissistic as to ignore the failings or so self-critical as to deconstruct the whole performance. However, as you’ve opened the question….
Compared to the clip that you posted with your proclamation of “Jack White Shows how it’s done”, the answers are either that you have no concept of “old time” or that in comparison to Marc, Jack White is talentless. I don’t think the latter is true as Jack White has produced some great music, as has Marc Nerenberg; who has performs as a pastime not as a profession. I wonder what Marc could achieve with the time & resources at Jack Whites disposal? Possibly it’s better that he doesn’t otherwise he may adopt the same hubris that tempted Jack White to perform in such an atrocious lack talent manner.
#2. Abigail Washburn is [like Jack White] a commercial venture; she isn’t singing in Chinese because it benefits OT music, it’s a fishing trip into an emerging market. So, your latest proclamation that “She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts” is another load of emotional nonsense; she doing this simply because there is a 1.1Billion person demographic some of whom will buy her music
I should add, I like the questions you raise and the discussion that it generates, but your punch lines are insulting, Possibly the problem is that I don’t realise that the questions are in reality proclamations. In which case I’ll finish with an old time quote and follow that with how it’s developed outside of it’s boundaries in these parts “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces”. This well-known statement around this part of the UK is summarised as “You can’t educate pork”! A sentiment that I'm developing towards your adopted behavior
Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford (quote in blue)
quote: Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford
quote: Originally posted by JTRoberts
The great musicians are always inclusive, and they are not purists... It is the purists and OT banjo police which hasten the demise... He is not blinded by the myopia of purity.
How do you reconcile this with your admiration for, and advocacy of Dwight Diller's approach?
By the way JT, since you're trotting out Diller again, care to take another stab at the above question as your answer pretty much side-stepped it.
Originally posted by jtroberts in response to above post (quote in red)
Rd:
Life is a paradox is it not?
JT, I hate to correct you & I certainly don't want to take anything out of context, but I think you have used the incorrect word to describe your views in regards to the question posed by R.D.; I'll quote definitions from The Merriam-Webster Dictionary, New Edition (2004) to see if you agree...
Paradox - "a statement that seems contrary to common sense and yet is perhaps true"
The use of that word just doesn't seem adequate in my opinion; you certainly have not displayed much common sense in your posts, especially in regards to this question, and so I would propose that the following word would much better describe your position...
Hypocrisy - "feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not"
Personally, I think "hypocritical" is much more descriptive of your response in this matter...not being confrontational, just trying to help...
#2. Abigail Washburn is [like Jack White] a commercial venture; she isn’t singing in Chinese because it benefits OT music, it’s a fishing trip into an emerging market. So, your latest proclamation that “She is a brave and daring soul who is taking the music around the world to touch lives and hearts” is another load of emotional nonsense; she doing this simply because there is a 1.1Billion person demographic some of whom will buy her music
I should add, I like the questions you raise and the discussion that it generates, but your punch lines are insulting, Possibly the problem is that I don’t realise that the questions are in reality proclamations. In which case I’ll finish with an old time quote and follow that with how it’s developed outside of it’s boundaries in these parts “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces”. This well-known statement around this part of the UK is summarised as “You can’t educate pork”! A sentiment that I'm developing towards your adopted behavior
rgds
hris
I have no, repeat NO, inclination to support the author of this thread. However, I think that stating that Ms. Washburn's decision to seek a synergy between OT music and Chinese traditional music is simply because she's angling for the huge Chinese commercial market is ridiculous and doesn't advance the positive conversation that many posters have participated in about Old Time music and its ong-standing tension between respect for tradition and search for new approaches/collaborations.
Check out Abigail's moving talk about just these issues. It's also very cool that she points to hearing Doc Watson sing Shady Grove as her entry into Old Time music given his recent passing:
I would have to agree with handsup8 on this, though I wouldn't have used the word "ridiculous" to describe the statement with which he disagrees. I would have merely said it was "unlikely to be correct".
I should also say that I don't really listen to Abigail Washburn that much, my faves tend to be more traditional in repertoire and approach, not to mention commercial profile. Nevertheless, all evidence indicates that she is a sincere and dedicated artist who seeks connections between traditions and cultures. We need those, as well as those who can play you a fiddle tune and demonstrate w/great accuracy and attention to detail how it would be played differently in the various regional traditions of OT music, or by the various masters of the instrument who created a personal style within one of those great traditions. It takes all kinds of dedicated artists, and we need all kinds. Now whether you think Jack White is dedicated or dilettante is a different question. I think he's great, and his interest in old time might bring some new folks to the music whether or not he did a great job that day with that chestnut of a song.
Do we rag on Robert Johnson for doing a kind of corny cover of "Hot Tamales?" I love it, even though I wouldn't call it one of his masterpieces. I also love that his recording of it shows that "country blues" masters were not simply emerging out of some hermetically-sealed, primitive & isolated culture but were connected to their times and the music in their air. They had to make money too, and knowing popular songs in genres other than the blues was important.
I would have to agree with handsup8 on this, though I wouldn't have used the word "ridiculous" to describe the statement with which he disagrees. I would have merely said it was "unlikely to be correct".
"Do we rag on Robert Johnson for doing a kind of corny cover of "Hot Tamales?" I love it, even though I wouldn't call it one of his masterpieces. I also love that his recording of it shows that "country blues" masters were not simply emerging out of some hermetically-sealed, primitive & isolated culture but were connected to their times and the music in their air. They had to make money too, and knowing popular songs in genres other than the blues was important." (italics added)
As it was for professional recording musicians in old time music like Uncle Dave Macon, Dock Bogg's, Buell Kazee etc. etc., I don't think that point is really in dispute...that comes from a pure sales perspective...the history of early recorded music is ripe with cover versions of songs (artists would even cover their OWN hits; Charley Patton's "Pony Blues" and his later version "Stone Pony Blues" for example) trying to maximize sales of records...nothing wrong with that, but it is economically driven...obviously if you can appeal to a wider audience, you can (possibly) expand the market for your sales (it can also work against you). In this thread I have often cited Tommy Jarrell's version of Hank Garland's 1949 hit "Sugarfoot Rag" as indicative of the fact that virtually none of the older "masters" came from a "hermectically-sealed, primitive & isolated culture". Where does the negative connotation come from that "tradition" implies stagnant uncreativity...when it's obvious that a great creative tradition abounds in playing OT music traditionally?
I asked a question directed at the author of this thread fully expecting that he wouldn't answer it, but I will ask it again of anyone contributing to this topic...why is it so important for OT music to "seek(s) connections between traditions and cultures" (handsup8), what is crucial about OT music's survival that the music must be changed to be relevant...?? As R.D. pointed out, this has always been fringe music and it's always managed to survive in a traditional format for many years. If people want to play Brahams, Thai pop or Hindi folk songs on the banjo, that's great, why is it so important to label it OT? The Kingston Trio played "Tom Dooley" on traditional instruments...is it "old time"? John Cougar Mellencamp's "John Hardy"? Jack White's "Wayfaring Stranger"? Old time music...??
It has been my experience that the "anything goes because it's folk music" folks who opine that any and everything played on the banjo qualifies for inclusion as "old time" music are usually people who have a superficial knowledge of what has come before...and that's fine, as I have repeatedly said, I don't have any problem with folks having fun playing music, I know I do, but if it doesn't walk like a duck and quack like a duck, it's just not a duck...it's something different...and there's no stigma attached to call it otherwise...
I have seem some clips of your singing, and perhaps you could do some self examination before you call Jack White's performance "half assed". Just saying.
as opposed to JTRoberts' oh so sweet clips. which are where exactly?
seriously, i don't understand why anyone here is still bothering to converse with JTRoberts. he hasn't offered a single sound clip or youtube video of himself making the music he is prattling on about, so who cares what he thinks. what kind of self styled expert on OT can't produce an example of their own playing?
I would have to agree with handsup8 on this, though I wouldn't have used the word "ridiculous" to describe the statement with which he disagrees. I would have merely said it was "unlikely to be correct".
I accept the correction in term and tone, Marc!
Me too - prefixing 'simply' is too prescriptive. Abigail obviously has a long lasting and deep affinity and understanding of China & I can't presume of her motivations
I asked a question directed at the author of this thread fully expecting that he wouldn't answer it, but I will ask it again of anyone contributing to this topic...why is it so important for OT music to "seek(s) connections between traditions and cultures" (handsup8), what is crucial about OT music's survival that the music must be changed to be relevant...?? As R.D. pointed out, this has always been fringe music and it's always managed to survive in a traditional format for many years. If people want to play Brahams, Thai pop or Hindi folk songs on the banjo, that's great, why is it so important to label it OT? The Kingston Trio played "Tom Dooley" on traditional instruments...is it "old time"? John Cougar Mellencamp's "John Hardy"? Jack White's "Wayfaring Stranger"? Old time music...??
It has been my experience that the "anything goes because it's folk music" folks who opine that any and everything played on the banjo qualifies for inclusion as "old time" music are usually people who have a superficial knowledge of what has come before...and that's fine, as I have repeatedly said, I don't have any problem with folks having fun playing music, I know I do, but if it doesn't walk like a duck and quack like a duck, it's just not a duck...it's something different...and there's no stigma attached to call it otherwise...
Every contributor has approached this topic from a slightly different angle which is what makes it so interesting. Personally I definitely don't hold the view that 'anything goes' and entirely agree with you that anyone is free to play anything on banjo but that doesn't necessarily qualify it as OT. My point is not that traditional equates to being stagnant or uncreative on an individual level. How can it be? Simply playing traditional music is a creative act. Rather that a form risks becoming 'closed' and unresponsive over time if it doesn't (sympathetically) incorporate new material in that style. To me that would represent a loss when one big part of the music is the sense of history contained within OT; events and people's lives. Genealogy was used as a descriptive term earlier in the thread. I like this idea but to have a genealogy going forward as well as back there has to be issue.
Also it amuses me how JT seems to take every opportunity to be dismissive of OT's innately traditional nature on one hand and then start a thread with the title implying he's going to show us all how it's done. Kind've like sawing through the branch he's sitting on and then yelling out carpentry advice as he plummets to the ground.
I asked a question directed at the author of this thread fully expecting that he wouldn't answer it, but I will ask it again of anyone contributing to this topic...why is it so important for OT music to "seek(s) connections between traditions and cultures" (handsup8), what is crucial about OT music's survival that the music must be changed to be relevant...?? As R.D. pointed out, this has always been fringe music and it's always managed to survive in a traditional format for many years. If people want to play Brahams, Thai pop or Hindi folk songs on the banjo, that's great, why is it so important to label it OT? The Kingston Trio played "Tom Dooley" on traditional instruments...is it "old time"? John Cougar Mellencamp's "John Hardy"? Jack White's "Wayfaring Stranger"? Old time music...??
Many good points here. I am not trying to say that OT music MUST seek such connections, and I see great value in those dedicated artists who pursue a commitment to plumb the considerable depths of OT music alone, without seeking such cultural hybridization. Sometimes they amazingly seem to occupy the same person's expansive and committed mission--i.e., Bob Carlin, with his close attention to the distinct styles of Kyle Creed and Wade Ward while also seeking opportunities to play with djembe players and covering John Hurt and Rolling Stones songs for clawhammer! Oh damn, he can also kick the crap out of minstrel tunes like his amazing version of "Richmond am a hard road to travel!"
Also, many of the masters we now revere in OT music were the type of creative artists who pushed the boundaries and sought out other sources for inspiration. Would we have Tommy Jarrell's iconic version of "Raleigh and Spencer" if he hadn't been willing to incorporate the music of his african-american neighbors into his own amazing and expansive musical universe? Would the banjo have become the iconic instrument it has become in the United States without the generous [and twisted] appropriations of Northern [and often foreign born] white musicians attracted to african-american music before the Civil War in the [incredibly commercial!] minstrel explosion? What if all the traditional musicians who met each other around the campfires during the Civil War had decided that other folks' musical traditions were foreign and unworthy of appropriation, rather than digging them and bringing them back home in a new mix? Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the Skillet Likkers and Riley Puckett as sources of a broad traditional OT repertoire, but they were sponges absorbing all styles they could for both artistic and commercial reasons. Jimmie Rodgers? Willie McTell?
Would we have many of the great field recordings we now have--and thus access to the tradition--if urban kids in the "revival" generation hadn't gone out of their way to seek out and learn from Appalachian masters very much outside of their own cultural backgrounds and priorities? I don't think that Ray Alden had much cultural overlap with OT music but thank god he went outside his own urban, Italian traditions to keep going south and recording both old and new musicians. As Alan Jabbour notes in one of his great lectures on old-time fiddling, we might not have "Over the Waterfall" if he hadn't sought out Henry Reed and captured this great tune before Mr. Reed passed away.
I don't have answers to this vibrant debate, but I think what we have to nurture is an explicit tension between respect for tradition and the skills needed to carry it on--on the one hand--and openness to those who want to push it in new directions--on the other.
I don't think that Mellencamp, Jack White, or Neil Young are playing OT music and I wouldn't label it that. But neither would I want to squelch the kinds of experiments that players like Richie Stearns or even Ms. Washburn have been making with clawhammer banjo for many years now. I'm also a little bit sick of those who rag on "hippies/new age/chamber music/et cetera" from "within the tradition." I imagine that most of them are really cracking on Adam Hurt without having the cojones to say it straight out and that is RIDICULOUS.
Lot more tolerance now. I remember a very competent old-time string band being thrown out of a contest for playing "Frosty the Snowman." I think the judges were irked that they did not recognize the tune until the band started singing the verses.
In regards to your post, I never claimed that OT was devoid of any diverse cultural musical collaboration, that was never the point of my posts...my point was that the rhythms, tone, syncopations, beat and timing of traditional old time music (no matter what the source or combination thereof...and just to clarify, I personally consider OT to include a wide range of musical genres, including jug bands, rags, cajun, blues, country etc. ) often gets squashed under modern musical influences to the point that it is not within the traditional foundation any more...assimilation is one thing, structural change is another...when people round off tunes, drop modal notes and change the texture of the music they homogenize it to such a degree that it becomes something entirely new and outside the tradition, tradition being defined as "an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action"...Abigail Washburn mixing Chinese lyrics with banjo? Not traditional American or Chinese music...something new...
Personally, I feel that just because someone can do something with an instrument, there isn't a compelling corresponding need to do it outside of personal desire...CH versions of Rolling Stones songs? Well, I'll just listen to the Stones...if I want to hear Chinese traditional folk music, I would rather hear it on traditional Chinese instruments...a kazoo orchestra performing Beethoven's 5th? No thanks. Change and outside influence is inevitable with any art form, however it's been my experience that those that allow it to happen in an organic manner create far more compelling art than those that consciously set out to do something shocking and out of the box; the mere fact that you're doing something "different" shouldn't automatically give you a pass if your efforts fall short.
Cojones? Well, I'll put mine out there. Mellencamp? Not a big fan. Jack White? Liked some songs he did with the Racontuers & White Stripes. Neil Young? Love his music (even with Crazy Horse). Richie Stearns, Abigail Washburn and Adam Hurt? Not a fan and don't listen to a lot of their music because it doesn't speak to my soul in any way, shape or form...but then neither does the playing of folks like Bela Fleck, Miles Davis, Joe Satriani and lot's of other folks that people think are absolute masters at their craft. Technical prowess on an instrument does not always equate to great music, it just means that you are technically proficient...soul is something entirely different and not always present...
The mere fact that you draw the reference to Adam Hurt's playing with this statement, "I'm also a little bit sick of those who rag on "hippies/new age/chamber music/et cetera" from "within the tradition." I imagine that most of them are really cracking on Adam Hurt without having the cojones to say it straight out and that is RIDICULOUS." , really reinforces the point I've been trying to make and speaks volumes about what I have been posting here (see above)...interesting that you made a correlation between the statement and his playing (he's not alone today by any means), obviously you've connected the dots in how he approaches the older source material, and you can hear something different in his music in regards to past performances of the tunes. For the record (and I am fully aware of your posting and what it references), what is so egregious about labeling his music "new age chamber banjo music?" I personally can hear no historical precedence in his playing other than he is using a technique to play the banjo that has been employed by older musicians for many years...his tone, timing, syncopation, beat accent and rhythm are not archaic to my ears in any sense of the word, nor do they appear to come from "an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action"...to me he is playing a modern music influenced interpretation of older tunes...once more, something "new". Does that make his music unworthy or him a lousy musician? That question is for the individual listener to decide...for me, I wouldn't call it "old time" nor do I care to listen to it...but so what, why is it so important for people to insist that his playing (or Jack White's in jtroberts opinion) is "within the tradition"? In my opinion, that insistence is what is truly RIDICULOUS...
Again, many fine points in your last post, RG. I guess we just sit on different points on the balance beam that connects tradition and innovation in any field that has a past, present, and future. While I may be more accepting of innovation I do not, however, adopt the position that anything goes and that any piece of music that bears the most tangential connection to a specific tradition has to be labeled as being part of that tradition. I wouldn't call the "Be Good Tanyas" or the "Horse Flies" an old-time string-band like the Camp Creek Boys or Bogtrotters or even the Highwoods, even though they cover many songs from within the tradition. As I've said, I certainly wouldn't call Jack White an old-time musician or hold him up as representative of what "OT playing and singing should be."
On the more conservative side of the beam, I'm not sure that I'd include jug music, blues, cajun, or rag-time as falling within the OT category. They seem to me like different species within a broader family of american traditional or folk music. There is great overlap between them, and many great artists borrowed from and blended with them. It is that borrowing and blending that I see as analogous to what musicians in our own time are doing with the wide range of traditions available to us now.
I'm actually pretty conservative about this, I don't like the blend called "world music" nearly as much as I like music played from within the many diverse traditions from around the world that we can now encounter--a position I think you have taken as well. I don't listen much to Bela Fleck or the many more "pop" bands that are mining the rich vein of Americana, including OT songs and tunes. I don't listen to bluegrass, either. However, I recognize that many of the traditions we now see as old and relatively fixed were actually very fluid in their own times, blending the "inherited, established, or customary pattern[s] of thought or action" with new influences [and commercial opportunities]. This recognition leads me to try to remain open to innovation and boundary-pushing performers even while my playlist would reflect that I lean towards those artists who are more firmly within a dynamic and rich tradition that they see as more important than their own egos. Nevertheless, I am still drawn to groups like the Kronos quartet who, when I first saw them, combined a great and "traditional" program of Beethoven and Dvorak string quartets with encores of Thelonious Monk's "Straight, No Chaser" and a Jimi Hendrix tune. They were both firmly within the tradition and repertoire of the classical string quartet and willing to look beyond it. [Of course, Dvorak himself was taking folk tunes and songs and weaving them into the classical tradition as did composers like Aaron Copeland.]
Lovers of be-bop may have criticized the practitioners of free jazz as straying from the true path, but be-boppers were criticized in the same way by more traditional, swing enthusiasts in their own time. Should we shun and push outside of the category of Jazz those artists who looked to modern European classical music for ways to expand the vocabulary of jazz in the 40's and 50's? This was a pretty large controversy in the Ken Burns film on Jazz in which Wynton Marsalis's pretty conservative views led to a neglect of be-bop and post-bop music in favor of swing. I think that most of us would place John Coltrane firmly within the American "Jazz" tradition even though he pushed it very far, and I would certainly put Ornette Coleman there as well, perhaps sticking the adjective "free" on to the noun. [How can you lump Miles with Bela Fleck and say that he is only technically proficient and has no soul? His technical proficiency is actually nothing like that of trumpeters like Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, or even Marsalis himself, whereas the soul he infuses into each of his solos on "Kind of Blue" makes him a cut above all three. I'm not a fan of his later funk/rock stuff, but if you listen to jazz you must recognize that Miles was the embodiment of this tension between tradition & innovation as well as an awesome, soulful musician who--YES--also often took paths that may have had as much to do with their shock value and his ego as they did with music. Not reason to de-classify him or place him outside the tradition of Jazz.]
You write "the mere fact that you're doing something "different" shouldn't automatically give you a pass if your efforts fall short." I would agree with that, but what if your efforts don't fall short? Many people would argue that Adam Hurt is doing something different with the old-time repertoire which balances respect for and knowledge of the tradition with his own take on it, and that he is doing so in a very honest and successful way. I have also heard him play clawhammer banjo in a string band setting and he is very skilled at supporting the fiddle and having a drive to his playing which is not so pronounced in his solo work. He clearly has a great knowledge of old-time music and I would argue that he is pushing the boundaries from within the tradition rather than outside of it. [As to Jack White, I would not make this claim.] What is to me so egregious about labelling his music in a way that defines it as DEFINITELY NOT OLD TIME [but rather some effete form of "new age music"] is that this has been done most often as a form of ex-communication and denigration rather than as an effort at thoughtful reflection on how to describe/label/categorize the different strands of contemporary old time music. [It has also usually been done without naming the target, which is why I introduced cojones into the conversation.] It's the same as other comments denigrating "hippies" who play old-time music these days [or in the past]. I'm not into the sectarian conflict aspect of this labelling, although I recognize that being able to talk about boundaries and what is in or out is a deep element of all criticism and discussions of taste, particularly in a musical genre like Old Time where tradition and respect for it are very important.
"I don't have answers to this vibrant debate, but I think what we have to nurture is an explicit tension between respect for tradition and the skills needed to carry it on--on the one hand--and openness to those who want to push it in new directions--on the other." '"""llll
Not so. I have answered simple and complex questions. If you don't understand the answers, there is nothing I can do.
why don't you try answering mine then. maybe you missed it above. here it is again for your consideration:
"as opposed to JTRoberts' oh so sweet clips. which are where exactly?
seriously, i don't understand why anyone here is still bothering to converse with JTRoberts. he hasn't offered a single sound clip or youtube video of himself making the music he is prattling on about, so who cares what he thinks. what kind of self styled expert on OT can't produce an example of their own playing?"
You are relentlessly redundant. I sincerely hope you are not this boring at home.
JT, did it not occur to you that simply posting a thread with such a presumptuous title you were inevitably gonna be asked this? Therefore Blockader's question can't realistically be referred to as 'redundant'. Like you I admire Dwight Diller. It would be interesting to hear what you learned from him. Showing rather than telling is always a more effective way of putting our viewpoint across.
Been around a long time. Learned a few things, and got to know a lot of people. One of the things I discovered is that a wise man or woman never issues nor accepts a challenge. It is a sign of weakness, insecurity and fragile ego.
