bd - Posted - 05/29/2012:  05:49:22

I'm sympathetic to what you're saying Coonskin. But I don't think any person or group of people have a special right to play a type of music. For example Shape Note singing became popular first in New England and then moved south. Do Southerner's have a "right" to sing in that style?

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  05:54:33

Uh-oh...I hear the heavy boot-fall of the old-time police. Hasn't this hoary old 'authenticity' subject been done to death already...? 

Everything comprises borrowing and appropriation over time anyway.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/29/2012:  06:52:53

I guess the real question then is "When does it cease to be Old-Time music and just become some other kind of music"? With so much different stuff being combined out there...its getting harder and harder to define no? Kinda like the other thread..."Take the banjo out of bluegrass and is it still bluegrass"? "Mix other influences and is it still Old-Time?"

To be honest maybe we shouldnt call it even "old-time" music maybe we should call it "Appalachian tinged american folk medley" music er something LOL. But then I have found out...that some of what we call "Old-Time" music wasnt just prevalent in the appalachian south, but throughout different areas of the country. So its kind of a funny term in a way.

What I think this thread and our folks music proves is that we americans are "true innovators" How many other cultures have such a different variety of folk styles and then in turn, combines them to create even more obscure music styles....our innovation as americans, for being such a young nation is something to be admired.

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/29/2012 06:59:47

jojo25 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  07:21:16

"Uh-oh...I hear the heavy boot-fall of the old-time police."...yeah MIke...but they are generally, if not entirely, well meaning...kinda like the Bobbies over on your side of the pond...unarmed...at least in this digital version

I figure I must be doing something right...as some younger musicians accuse me of being "so traditional"...and some of my older contemporaries wonder at the "liberties" I take

IMHO...trying to define old-time is like trying to catch your shadow

having hedged my bets so I do admit that some folks need some explaining done to them...but with a huge quantity of qualifiers

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  11:43:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by jojo25

"Uh-oh...I hear the heavy boot-fall of the old-time police."...yeah MIke...but they are generally, if not entirely, well meaning...kinda like the Bobbies over on your side of the pond...unarmed...at least in this digital version

I figure I must be doing something right...as some younger musicians accuse me of being "so traditional"...and some of my older contemporaries wonder at the "liberties" I take

IMHO...trying to define old-time is like trying to catch your shadow

having hedged my bets so I do admit that some folks need some explaining done to them...but with a huge quantity of qualifiers

 

---

...that made me laugh Joe, and in relation to my comment I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek at the time! It does make me look skyward though, when an absolute 'claim' is made to any creative activity as if it dropped unannounced from outer space at that very geographical point. When we stand back and get some perspective we see that even the oldest traditions came from a multiplicity of sources. And then a multiplicity of sources before that...

banjopogo - Posted - 05/29/2012:  13:13:31

But then I have found out...that some of what we call "Old-Time" music wasnt just prevalent in the appalachian south, but throughout different areas of the country.

---

Wherever you go in the world, you will find mountain people tending to cling to and preserve customs that were once widespread throughout the country.

In Scotland, it's the highlands.  In Sweden, it's Dalarna.  In Central Europe, it's the Alps.

In the U.S., it's the Appalachians and the Ozarks.

One additional wrinkle:  At one time, the Appalachians was "the frontier".  (About 1700 to 1781?)

While the "frontier" moved westwards,  the Appalachians weren't conducive to being civilizable.  A mountain road is a high maintenance proposition.  Unless very well engineered and constructed, they have a tendency to wash out when the rains come.

No roads or bad roads = isolation.

There is evidence from songs and tune titles like "I Am the Bravest Cowboy" "Lone Prairie" and Santa Anna's Retreat that young men from the Appalachians had no trouble participating in the frontier as it moved west, or participated in various wars , but some of them returned to the Appalachians and brought songs and tunes back from places like Texas or the plains.

Eh... there was some kind of point I was going to make, but either this cold I have or a senior moment has derailed it!  Oh well!

banjopogo - Posted - 05/29/2012:  13:43:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbuk06

Uh-oh...I hear the heavy boot-fall of the old-time police. Hasn't this hoary old 'authenticity' subject been done to death already...? 

Everything comprises borrowing and appropriation over time anyway.

---

Well, EVERY music genre has its more traditional proponents, and more progressive ones.   Until jazz split into New Orleans jazz and Modern jazz, I'm sure they had plenty of similar conflicts.  You have similar conflicts in Bluegrass and Blues, and even classical- I've heard the term "Vibrato Wars" - the use of vibrato was very controversial in classical violin at one point.

The thing about "Old Time Music" is that  the very name "Old Time" implies that an old-fashioned or traditional way of playing or singing is intrinsic to the genre. Think about it:   "Modern Old Time Music"... it's oxymoronic!

Also, many people were attracted to Old Time precisely because it was so alien sounding, so out of step with contemporary music.  If you change it to make it more LIKE contemporary music, you've taken all the attraction out of it for those people- given human nature, why WOULDN'T they squawk about it???  It's as if the progressives in Old Time (or any genre) are changing the rules of the game.

However, change comes in different forms.

Some people imitate the old way of playing in good faith, but the contemporary music they have heard affects the way they phrase or accent things so that they change things without trying to.

OTHER people are intrigued with the genre enough to learn to play that way, but once they've learned it, they get bored, and start tinkering with it.  In that case, the change is deliberate, and often much more dramatic.  These are the kinds of people that traditionalists in any genre LOVE to hate, and wish they would just go somewhere else.  And sometimes, they DO go somewhere else!

One innovation both Jack White and Tim Eriksen make (or perhaps rather their groups make) is that the fiddle and banjo were seldom used for hymns, at least in church groups.  They were associated with those that made or drank moonshine whiskey.

Guitars, autoharps and mandolins were considered acceptable for church use.

The idea of using fiddle and banjo for hymns IS however common in bluegrass- so I see this as a bluegrass influence... which actually doesn't bother me personally.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/29/2012:  15:20:41

I have to admit I can't understand why we are discussing this video as if it is music, let alone old time music.

I don't know who Jack White is but I don't think you could get me to one of his shows with that video as an inducement. Perhaps he does something else well - or at least sober.

The argument appears to be that he should be allowed to bring whatever he wants to the Old Time Table.

Wrong argument.

We should be discussing his lack of ability to bring anything to the table - Old Time, New Time or Any Time.

He might be a fine young man, but he is not a musician. Making him the butt of the joke is just plain cruel.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/29/2012 15:26:30

erikforgod - Posted - 05/29/2012:  16:23:31

Personally I dont care too much for his singing...

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/29/2012:  16:31:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I have to admit I can't understand why we are discussing this video as if it is music, let alone old time music.

I don't know who Jack White is but I don't think you could get me to one of his shows with that video as an inducement. Perhaps he does something else well - or at least sober.

The argument appears to be that he should be allowed to bring whatever he wants to the Old Time Table.

Wrong argument.

We should be discussing his lack of ability to bring anything to the table - Old Time, New Time or Any Time.

He might be a fine young man, but he is not a musician. Making him the butt of the joke is just plain cruel.

---

 This whole post seems rather cruel. It's clear you don't like him, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean he's completely without merit.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/29/2012:  16:43:38

"he might be a fine young man, but he is not a musician."

For me, here is the bottom line: T Bone Burnett, one of the most sought after producers in the industry, who is a 12 time Grammy winner, is often selected to bring a movie alive musically, and keep it authentic. He is responsible for the Johnny Cash movie 'I walk the Line', 'O Brother Where Art Thou',
and 'Cold Mountain'. For Cold Mountain Burnett chose Allison Krauss, Jack White and others to bring the story to life. And.......he didn't hire any of you guys. Why was that? This question is especially pertinent, because many on this OT banjo forum seem to think they are the only ones who know how to define old time music, and who should be allowed to play it. Anyway, the masses loved the 'Cold Mountain' sound track. It made them feel something special ,and they bought the CD. Making people feel something special is what music is all about. So, it really doesn't matter what a few porch pickers think. The verdict is already in. You folks may not like it, but many others did, because it touched them in a very important way.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  16:51:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

The argument appears to be that he should be allowed to bring whatever he wants to the Old Time Table.

 

---

I don't think the progressive discussion is that ​anything​ can be brought to the table.  Clearly any musical form, whether Old-Time, Blues, Spanish Flamenco or any other genre, will always contain elements that identify and define that particular sound. However I see no reason why modern songs can't be borrowed and adapted to any genre if they can be made to sound good and others want to play and enjoy them in addition to the more familiar songs.  I occasionally hear new songs that I think would sound great sung to banjo and fiddle. Would this break some cardinal unspoken rule?

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:00:42

We don't all have to like the same things. Good music and bad music are subjective and what's good to you might not be good to me. Not like that someone else does, or vice versa, is no reflection on you. All it comes down to is taste. And I don't think anyone has the right to say that someone else is, "not a musician." You may think they're a bad musician, but you can't just declare them not a musician.

Regarding progressive old-time: I think old-time can't be progressed too much without becoming "new-time." A better word would be "rural southern folk-style music" but a catchier name would be a must. You can certainly take elements of that music and add new elements to. Music is just music, I think you can take the best of the old and the best of the new. Preserve the old but don't get stagnant.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:01:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

"he might be a fine young man, but he is not a musician."



For me, here is the bottom line: T Bone Burnett, one of the most sought after producers in the industry, who is a 12 time Grammy winner, is often selected to bring a movie alive musically, and keep it authentic. He is responsible for the Johnny Cash movie 'I walk the Line', 'O Brother Where Art Thou',

and 'Cold Mountain'. For Cold Mountain Burnett chose Allison Krauss, Jack White and others to bring the story to life. And.......he didn't hire any of you guys. Why was that? This question is especially pertinent, because many on this OT banjo forum seem to think they are the only ones who know how to define old time music, and who should be allowed to play it. Anyway, the masses loved the 'Cold Mountain' sound track. It made them feel something special ,and they bought the CD. Making people feel something special is what music is all about. So, it really doesn't matter what a few porch pickers think. The verdict is already in. You folks may not like it, but many others did, because it touched them in a very important way.

---

Sorry JT but the 'market knows best' argument is driven by simple economics and has no artistic merit or relevance whatsoever. Following that spurious logic would place Jack Vettriano as a greater painter than Goya or Rubens. And believe me...he isn't.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:11:55

mbuko6:

"the 'market knows best' argument is driven by simple economics and has no artistic merit or relevance whatever".

So what has relevance in your world? Who decides relevance.....music critics? I say that the market is reflective of the tastes of the masses not the elite.
The masses may not be perfect, but I'll take their side any day.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:15:26

It's a personal thing. What everyone else thinks doesn't matter. There's need to have to justify, rationalize, or validate your musical taste.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:39:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

mbuko6:



"the 'market knows best' argument is driven by simple economics and has no artistic merit or relevance whatever".



So what has relevance in your world? Who decides relevance.....music critics? I say that the market is reflective of the tastes of the masses not the elite.

The masses may not be perfect, but I'll take their side any day.

---

Relevance is our personal choice. ​Quality​ is intrinsic and dependent on an artist's ability to engage and move us. Potentially that is just as likely to be found in what you disparagingly term a 'porch-picker' with an audience of one as on the stage at the Grammies. The Hangout jukebox would be a good place to test this. I find it ironic that you use elitism as a justification for your argument. It is the very mass market you champion that has done more than anything to create a performer-spectator divide and foster a sense of the 'accessible' and the 'elite'. This was never the way music or mark-making were meant to be. They are social activities and all truly great art reveals simple human truths that speak (or sing) to us all.

whyteman - Posted - 05/29/2012:  17:47:24

Deaspite what the masses think, the REAL Cold Mountain soundtrack for me is "Backroads To Cold Mountain" on Smithsonian edited by John Cohen. It contains mostly field recordings of decendants, both White and Negro, of the Civil War era covering many different subgenres of Old Time music. There is even an alternative take by Banjo Bill Cornett of "Lonesome Road", quite different than the the one on FRC.

Regarding T-Bone, I consider him merely a King Maker. There is almost no banjo playing, except maybe by Sydney White on the entire soundtrack to O' Bro. Hartford picked up a Grammy along with the rest of the cast for O'Bro, the same year he was nominated and lost for Hamilton Ironworks. Guess which album I would have voted for, and not just out of Missouri pride.

Don

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/29/2012:  18:29:11

mbuko6:

"quality is intrinsic and dependent on an artists ability to engage and move us."

Well, no kidding. That is exactly why the Cold Mountain CD sold so many copies. It moved people in very important ways. Thank you for validating my position.

"disparaging term porch picker"

It is only disparaging in your eyes, and that is unfortunate. Many song books have the term "porch picker" in the title.

"This is never they way music was meant to be."

Who gets to decide this, you? Why do folks constantly think they have the right to decide how things are meant to be, or who should or should not play old time music, or what old time music is or is not?

erikforgod - Posted - 05/29/2012:  18:42:40

I didnt really think this recording was old-time at all...looked like Mike Compton playing the mandolin ( if I am not mistaken ) kinda sounded a bit like slow bluesy bluegrassish to me with those Monroe style mandolin licks in it...guy clawing on the banjo but really subtle.

RG - Posted - 05/29/2012:  19:23:48

Originally posted by jtroberts (quote in blue)

"So what has relevance in your world? Who decides relevance.....music critics? I say that the market is reflective of the tastes of the masses not the elite.

The masses may not be perfect, but I'll take their side any day."

So, deciding you like something due to a music critic is different than blindly following the whims of the masses...how??  "The masses" are more relevant than the "music critics" in which way; isn't either one as irrelevant as the other?  BTW, the Cold Mountain soundtrack sold less than 500K units (it wasn't RIAA certified gold), so given the population of the US at 306mil in 2004, I don't think that less than .0000016% of the population could be properly defined as "the masses".  Additionally, I'm sure you are also aware that the "elite" decide what gets disseminated and marketed to the "masses", and T-Bone Burnett is obviously part of that machine..that's why they call it the "music industry" and why folks like Sting and Elvis Costello wrote new songs for the "Cold Mountain" film. 

Let's face it, OT music is not popular music & it never has been.  Personally I like to listen to and play OT music since I have a cultural link to it's past and wish to see the archaic sounds and traditions of the music preserved and continued; I'm not the least bit interested in what the "masses" or "critics" like, nor am I interested in modern interpretations of OT material.  In terms you might understand, I prefer "Too Bad Jim" to "A Ass Pocket of Whiskey"...I listen to both, but I'd rather hear the former...can't say this about Jack White singing Hollywood OT.

"The masses may not be perfect, but I'll take their side any day."

Interesting...guess you're enjoying the true country sounds of Lady Antebellum, the pure pop talent of Lady Gaga, the down and dirty blues of John Mayer and the awesome dance music of Skrillex...looks like the masses have spoken...enjoy!  As for me, I'll play my personal interpretations of OT music within the tradition, alone & with my friends, since it doesn't have to be validated by awards, popularity or sales...it just IS...

Edited by - RG on 05/29/2012 19:30:46

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/29/2012:  21:29:47

RG

It is your choice to look down on the taste of the masses, but it is an elitist attitude like it or not.

'Ass Pocket of whiskey' or' Too Bad Jim' are both different flavors of the same emotionally driving music. Thank God for Fat Possum Records. They allowed RL to provide some financial comfort for him and his family in his late years.

"Old time music is not popular and it has never has been."

Well of course this is true, and one of the causes of this situation is the purists and old time music police who scream and have fits any time some (like Jack White and T Bone Burnett) tries to bring it into public awareness.

RG - Posted - 05/29/2012:  23:03:27

originally posted by jtroberts (quotes in blue)

RG



It is your choice to look down on the taste of the masses, but it is an elitist attitude like it or not.

Really?  How do you justify that?  Your statement is hilarious in its contradiction; if I don't like what is popular, I am by your definition an elitist, but if I like everything that is popular, wouldn't I be an elitist by numbers?  What is worse in regards to art, liking something for a personal preference or liking something because everyone else does?  Check your logic my friend and also check the percentage of people representing the total population of America who bought the Cold Mountain soundtrack; again, I don't consider .0000016% of the population to represent "the masses"...maybe I just don't understand math or "elitist" attitudes... 

On the other hand, just so I understand, since I prefer listening to  Wade Ward, Doc Boggs, Rosko Halcomb, Gaither Carlton, Clyde Troxell, Dink Roberts, Lewis "Big Sweet" Hairston, Flatt & Scruggs, the Stanley Brothers, the Louvin Brothers etc. et. al. over Jack White butchering "Wayfaring Stranger", and because Jack White is popular (and by the way his popularity is derived from singing and composing in rock bands such as the White Stripes, The Dead Weather and the Raconteurs...certainly NOT in singing Old Time music), by your definition I'm an elitist....???  OK, than by YOUR definition I am DEFINITELY an elitist since I prefer real OT music and not some plastic Hollywood influenced manufactured interpretation of it...BTW, to reiterate, is Jack White popular because he is an OT artist...yeah, I didn't think so...so spoke the masses...     



'Ass Pocket of whiskey' or' Too Bad Jim' are both different flavors of the same emotionally driving music. Thank God for Fat Possum Records. They allowed RL to provide some financial comfort for him and his family in his late years.

Love Fat Possum for what they did, bringing the music of folks like Junior Kimbrough, Asie Payton, T-Model Ford, RL and putting it out in the air for people to hear.  The difference in the 2 records is that one is in the tradition and the other is not...kind of the focus of this topic don't you think?  Oh right, obviously not...



"Old time music is not popular and it has never has been."



Well of course this is true, and one of the causes of this situation is the purists and old time music police who scream and have fits any time some (like Jack White and T Bone Burnett) tries to bring it into public awareness.

Hahaha, so Jack White and T-Bone Burnett are the saviors of OT music...really!?!?!?!? The "purists" who like to play music within the tradition are the problem and not the folks who dilute and bastardize the music to make it fit into a modern musical pabulum formula for mass consumption and maximum sales?  For your information, OT music hasn't been popular (by your yardstick of commercial success) for over 200 years...and to carry it a step further, by your logic the Kingston Trio is more OT than the NLCR.  I suggest you listen to the Kingston Trio's version of "Tom Dooley" and then listen to Frank Profitt or Doc Watson's renditions...obviously, by your reasoning, the Kingston Trio's version is better since it was more commercially successful and it was a modern interpretation of an OT tune...wow, now that is an interesting observation! 

FWIW, if T-Bone really wanted to bring OT music into the "public awareness", why didn't he use real OT musicians in the tradition like Doc Watson, Dan Gellert, Reed Martin, Tracy Schwartz, Benton Flippen, Clyde Davenport, Mike Seeger, John Cohen etc. et. al. on the Cold Mountain soundtrack instead of Jack White, Stuart Duncan (a GREAT Bluegrass player, but DEFINITELY not OT), Tim Eriksen etc.?  Why not give those aforementioned OT players the ability to, as you put it, "provide some financial comfort for him and his family in his late years" (Lord knows playing OT music ain't going to make you rich).  Isn't T-Bone being the elitist for using the artists that he choose to represent OT music for this (and other) soundtracks?  The fact of the matter is that T-Bone is following the "elitist" mandate to make as much money as possible, and to do that you need Alison Krauss and Jack White singing songs written by Sting and Elvis Costello...because that what's the masses want right?  With your logic, to think otherwise is "elitist"... 

Please don't get me wrong JT, as I mentioned before, I worked in the music industry for over 20 years & I personally love your posts, they are really funny and we need comedy in this world we live in...I am still laughing because you consider me "elitist" since I don't care for artists like Skrillex, Lady Gaga, Lady Antebellum or Jack White trying to sing OT...now THAT is truly funny!  Up with the musical proletariat and down with bourgeois OT purists!  Great stuff!

Edited by - RG on 05/29/2012 23:19:40

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/29/2012:  23:55:47

Everything around here rapidly devolves into people screaming about "Politically Correctness" or "Authenticity" or some other carp that leaves out the essential - the quality of the music.

In this case the quality of the "music" is quite pathetic - I don't care if he is butchering Old Time Music, Bluegrass, Rock, Soul, or Swedish Walking Songs. He is not a musician. He cannot sing. Putting this video up with the title "How To Play And Sing Old Time Music" is, in fact being very cruel to the young man, who might yet someday learn how to play and sing.

Any time you present something as superior - it has best be just that - or it is going to look really bad.

If OTOH the title of the thread was meant to be ironic, then the cruelty is even greater.

I'm assuming he is a well known "pop singer" (as I have actually heard of him, and in general never hear, nor hear of, most of the current flashes in the pan. I have no idea how he really feels about OTM, but he can certainly make it sound bad.

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/30/2012:  00:09:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

mbuko6:



"quality is intrinsic and dependent on an artists ability to engage and move us."



Well, no kidding. That is exactly why the Cold Mountain CD sold so many copies. It moved people in very important ways. Thank you for validating my position.



"disparaging term porch picker"



It is only disparaging in your eyes, and that is unfortunate. Many song books have the term "porch picker" in the title.



"This is never they way music was meant to be."



Who gets to decide this, you? Why do folks constantly think they have the right to decide how things are meant to be, or who should or should not play old time music, or what old time music is or is not?

---

JT- of course you're entitled to your opinions but taking another's comments out of context and attaching an opposite meaning to imply a validation of your opinion is the oldest trick in the book.  And it doesn't convince. By doing this the perpetrator inadvertently reveals their own agenda and almost invariably this is shown to be exactly what they accuse others of.

And to answer your question; it's not 'who' it's 'why'. And for that history and anthropology provide the clues.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/30/2012:  01:24:34

We can never have a discussion about anything on this forum without it dissolving into screaming and personal attacks.

pastorharry - Posted - 05/30/2012:  01:51:35

Well, after reading these 3 pages and having some good laughs, i decided to actually watch the video.My take....even with 3 extremely talented musicians playing along,1. Stuart Duncan, 2.Mike Compton, 3. Dirk Powell....I have to say that is the WORST version of Wayfaring stranger I've EVER heard, and that's being kind!

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/30/2012:  02:16:49

 Quote JTRoberts

For me, here is the bottom line: T Bone Burnett, one of the most sought after producers in the industry, who is a 12 time Grammy winner, is often selected to bring a movie alive musically, and keep it authentic. He is responsible for the Johnny Cash movie 'I walk the Line', 'O Brother Where Art Thou',

and 'Cold Mountain'. For Cold Mountain Burnett chose Allison Krauss, Jack White and others to bring the story to life. And.......he didn't hire any of you guys. Why was that?  

You’ve answered the question in your opening statement.   The music was developed in support of the movie ‘Cold Mountain’ which is purely a commercial venture.   The process of securing investors’ money would have run into difficulties if the investors were told that the music soundtrack was going to be created on the advice of, RG, Coonskin, Whyteman, BD, Mojo Monk, Minstrelmike, UncleClawhammer, Banjo Pogo et al as the consultants.  Allison Kraus & Jack White are commercially successful and as such would help stear the music towards their audiences and get a return for the investors.   After all movies are high risk product and investors want to know that their money is going to be exposed to as little risk as possible, I’m guessing here, but including Professor Tim Erikson phd, gave the investors’ confidence that the music would have an aspect of historical authenticity.

However, it’s movie music, and movies are simply stories that can captivate the public and give generous financial returns.  So the movie industry investors employ the best story tellers as producers & directors.  The very best story tellers never let the truth get in the way of a good story…..

Quote JTRoberts 

Making people feel something special is what music is all about. So, it really doesn't matter what a few porch pickers think. The verdict is already in. You folks may not like it, but many others did, because it touched them in a very important way.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment; the soundtrack has some nice music but in looking for commercial success it has developed into modern country music &, as a result, away from what the masses on BHO call oldtime music

Rgds

Chris

LyleK - Posted - 05/30/2012:  04:00:53

JW is The King and he knows karate (youtube.com/watch?v=X8ZUsFkrNQE).  What more could you ask for?  But if I were looking for how to sing and play old time (esp. clawhammer banjo), I think I'd probably go with Riley Baugas over JW (youtube.com/watch?v=sFpU3zslpHw).

erikforgod - Posted - 05/30/2012:  05:28:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by pastorharry

Well, after reading these 3 pages and having some good laughs, i decided to actually watch the video.My take....even with 3 extremely talented musicians playing along,1. Stuart Duncan, 2.Mike Compton, 3. Dirk Powell....I have to say that is the WORST version of Wayfaring stranger I've EVER heard, and that's being kind!

---

Thanks Pastor Harry for clearing that up for me!! I thought that was Mr Mike Compton on the mandolin....as for my two-cents, I didnt care for his singing one bit and I certainly wouldnt call this recording old-time...just not my cup-o-tea I guess. Tim Erikson on the other hand. I think its cool that their are non folky old-timer lover folks gettin into the music, although this version doesnt do much for me. I appreciate the Kirk Sutphins and Riley Bauguses and Clifton Hicks. Matt Kinsman, John Haywood types and even folks like R.D. and Dan..who are kinda just carrying torches rather than recreating and mixing and trying to create something new. Guess in a way that would make me a purist, but I see OT music..pardon the pun as like "a recipe for good whiskey" get it just right, mix the right ingredients and it tastes good everytime". Maybe its because of my Kentucky roots, but I certainly think its great...for example folks like Mike Iverson that are taking non OT songs and arranging them for the genre to be played, but this recording in particular, to me it sounds more like just old country music...to me...I guess its because I didnt like his kind of whimpering style of singing with slightly off-key falsettos.

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/30/2012 05:31:01

OldTimeGal - Posted - 05/30/2012:  07:25:47

Yikes! I clicked on this thread because I just completely set up and restrung my open back for the very first time, thanks to some great instructions provided on archived thread, and wanted to learn more about playing and singing old time music. Fortunately my local library has a great selection of books containing songs collected from way back when - back when sitting and listening around the kitchen table was how you recorded... so much fun to browse:-)

jojo25 - Posted - 05/30/2012:  08:09:32

just for giggles I am listening to the sound track version of this tune...which is much better than the posted vid that started this thread...same singer...so maybe that qualitative difference (a difference as I hear it) explains a lot of what has been said here

youtube.com/watch?v=70_3ho_j0yk 

Edited by - jojo25 on 05/30/2012 08:11:35

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/30/2012:  09:01:37

No better.

He has no control over his pitch - something a few vocal lessons could probably help. He also seems to either have a totally unique sense of rhythm, or perhaps none at all.

The best Old Time Singers - are singers first and old time second. I think too many people think that in OT "Anything Goes". The fact is that if you don't have the voice, you should probably keep your mouth shut.

I stand squarely by my original statement - the man may be a famous pop-star but he is not a musician. The World of Pop music orbits the great and dazzling Sun of MONEY. Musicianship has nothing to do with it and really never has - at least not in my lifetime. I clearly remember the pop song "Diana" with the singer's adenoidal voice completely out of control. It set my teeth on edge and was on the radio for months. That was when I gave up on trying to "fit in" with everyone else and went back to my jazz and swing records.

Around that same time I took up banjo, which eventually lead me to a long life full of traditional music of one sort or another. I can't say I appreciate people who think that putting on a false southern accent and braying like mules makes them "authentic" mountain music interpreters.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/30/2012 09:03:04

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/30/2012:  09:20:15

The great musicians are always inclusive, and they are not purists. Doc Watson played and sang bluegrass, folk, country, blues, and gospel. Yo Yo Ma, plays with so many diverse musicians that it is simply amazing. Bluegrass and Country music are inclusive genres and they have thrived and grown. Classical music, which was about to become a dying genre, can thank Yo Yo Ma for introducing so many people to the Cello and its possibilities. Introducing a music form to the masses is critical for survival. That is why there is a Boston Pops. That is why LA Phil hires a optimistic showman like Dudamel. Old time music, while played in pockets around the world, is dying. It is the purists and OT banjo police which hasten the demise. When I posted the Jack White video to this site, a bluegrass player said, "I have always loved this version." He is not blinded by the myopia of purity.

Edited by - JTRoberts on 05/30/2012 09:21:00

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/30/2012:  09:26:22

There are all kinds of lousy singers around (and in every genre). Doesn't mean anything.

I never liked Bill Monroe's singing but that doesn't mean he can't sing.

Same with Bob Dylan.

And if Johnny Cash can make a million dollars with his voice, I don't feel bad singing myself at parties and jams.

erikforgod - Posted - 05/30/2012:  09:51:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by JTRoberts

The great musicians are always inclusive, and they are not purists. Doc Watson played and sang bluegrass, folk, country, blues, and gospel. Yo Yo Ma, plays with so many diverse musicians that it is simply amazing. Bluegrass and Country music are inclusive genres and they have thrived and grown. Classical music, which was about to become a dying genre, can thank Yo Yo Ma for introducing so many people to the Cello and its possibilities. Introducing a music form to the masses is critical for survival. That is why there is a Boston Pops. That is why LA Phil hires a optimistic showman like Dudamel. Old time music, while played in pockets around the world, is dying. It is the purists and OT banjo police which hasten the demise. When I posted the Jack White video to this site, a bluegrass player said, "I have always loved this version." He is not blinded by the myopia of purity.

---

Old-Time music isnt dying...this music is timeless. there will always be some dedicated ( albeit maybe few ) folks that will carry things forward, and their are some that are doing new things with the old styles. Thats great, but I think its a far cry from dying out....this music will live on, I think the many festivals around the nation every year can attest to that. Granted I dunno if Old-Time recordings will be at the top of the chart..lets say like madonna, but thats fine with me. If you wanna take OT music and run with it and create something new and mix-it-up...whatever...thats great, but dont drop bombs on the folks that like to continue to hand the old tunes down and roll with em. It takes in my opinion far more dedication to be willing to be obscure for the sake of the music than just sell out and do it for the bucks..

I think your making some "mountains out of molehills" with the whole OT banjo police thing...look...their will always be purists and their will always be folks who "arent" purists....both are fine and dandy and have their place. You arent any more justified by being the "new Old-Time" police anymore than some of us could be considered to be "old-time police" This isnt about a quest of honor for the real holy-grail of old-time or anything...its just about differences in approaches. This whole thing kinda reminds me of the old high-school arguments I heard as a kid growin up "Dude I listen to Megadeth and Slayer and they are way more metal than Posion and Bon-Jovi..DUDE!! Who cares...really!! I mean why all the fuss??

Edited by - erikforgod on 05/30/2012 09:59:08

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/30/2012:  10:03:10

?? Are you serious? OT has more life than any music I've ever experienced probably because of the vibrant culture of jamming. To paraphrase...'DrJT's report of it's death is greatly exaggerated'. Maybe the good doctor should buy a new stethoscope? Or maybe we should check whether he ever enrolled medical school? 

Edited by - mbuk06 on 05/30/2012 10:07:25

mbuk06 - Posted - 05/30/2012:  10:08:24

Quack?

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/30/2012:  10:11:48

To a purist, the tradition is _always_ dying.

It's the way they define themselves and whatever tradition they adore.

(The purist as saviour of the tradition).

Rock n Roll is dead.

Classic Rap is already dead.

HipHop was never even alive ;-)

mojo_monk - Posted - 05/30/2012:  10:22:34

I'm interested in how folks would distinguish a preservationist from a purist. Defining terms could be helpful (at least for me).

For what it's worth, I'm very much enjoying this discussion. Thanks for stirring the pot (again) JTRoberts!

-Sean

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 05/30/2012:  10:57:40

I don't really think there's much more we can accomplish with this thread, if there ever was anything.

Just to clear up any ambiguities, I like Jack White and I like this song, but I wouldn't have chosen it as the best example of how old time music should be sung and played. I don't know if there is a best example of that, just because old time is such a diverse type of music, and an individualistic approach is one of the main things about it. We can't all sing like Roscoe Holcomb. Really, that's a much more interesting topic than an argument about Jack White. Who, to you, is the best example of how to play and sing old time music? I really can't figure that out. I guess the only "how" about singing and playing old time music is to give it your all. (Also, does anyone ever wish old time music had a simpler, catchier name?)

erikforgod - Posted - 05/30/2012:  12:44:12

Gosh I dunno....so many of em were great singers...each one had their own touch. I know alot of folks maybe wouldnt like Holcombes high-piercing tenor, but yah know...lots of the old timers in Kentucky that did sing...sang in a high voice like that. I knew a friend of my grandfathers who was a fox-hunter and hunted alot with my grandad. He had a little tiny fox-horn ( the one my grandaddy used he made himself was bigger ) anyways in the morning when it came time to call the dogs to the truck. more often that not this skinny old timer would sing/holler out a REALLLLY high-pitched kinda "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"" Like this ( I cant imitate it ) but it was piercing and really high pitched and carried. You know when he would do that you could hear it echo all throughout those hills and hollers, and soon after...here came the dogs up the gravel lane...coulda heard him for MILES....it impressed me. I always wondered if he could sing. Those high falsettos are in alot of old music in kentucky...you hear it with Bill Monroe. But to be honest its all relative....I guess I am digressing. What I really want to say is I guess it all has its place ...no? But is it really old-time or what we would call it so?

OldTimeGal - Posted - 05/30/2012:  13:31:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by UncleClawhammer

I don't really think there's much more we can accomplish with this thread, if there ever was anything.



Just to clear up any ambiguities, I like Jack White and I like this song, but I wouldn't have chosen it as the best example of how old time music should be sung and played. I don't know if there is a best example of that, just because old time is such a diverse type of music, and an individualistic approach is one of the main things about it. We can't all sing like Roscoe Holcomb. Really, that's a much more interesting topic than an argument about Jack White. Who, to you, is the best example of how to play and sing old time music? I really can't figure that out. I guess the only "how" about singing and playing old time music is to give it your all. (Also, does anyone ever wish old time music had a simpler, catchier name?)

---

Music of Langsyne - Scottish for long+since.  From times of old, yet still playable whensoever.   

blockader - Posted - 05/30/2012:  13:33:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by UncleClawhammer

Who, to you, is the best example of how to play and sing old time music? I really can't figure that out. I guess the only "how" about singing and playing old time music is to give it your all. (Also, does anyone ever wish old time music had a simpler, catchier name?)

---

Easy one, Tommy Jarrell. Who definitely wouldn't have passed OWCs singing guideline outlined above in the thread.

-justin

RG - Posted - 05/30/2012:  14:01:37

Without "purists" or "preservationists" (agree with Sean, a definition would be helpful) there would be no traditional Cajun, Native American, Maori, Aboriginal, Basque, Gypsy etc. culture left...since the "purists" in those, and countless other cultures around the world, helped preserve the traditions of their cultures when others were actively attempting to eradicate it...to me it's the "progressives" (for lack of a better term) who destroy tradition by insisting that what they do is in the tradition of the culture they are trying to emulate or copy...once again , think The Kingston Trio's "Tom Dooley" versus Frank Profitt's...does anyone really think that the Kingston Trio's version is in the true OT tradition rather than a modern pop song influenced by an OT tune?  Big difference in my opinion.  Lastly, here's some food for thought from a guy who was a lot smarter than me...

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the America public." - H.L. Mencken

That quote very accurately describes to me anyone who would mistake the Cold Mountain soundtrack to be representative of OT tradition rather than a modern pop influenced version of it...which makes it modern music and not OT in my opinion...

My favorite old time singer...well, can't narrow it down to just one, but Riley Puckett is right up there at the top of my list for sure...

Edited by - RG on 05/30/2012 14:03:03

pastorharry - Posted - 05/30/2012:  14:35:41

Food for thought,or to add to the pot...

Cisco Houston was distinguished by his voice, a smooth baritone sometimes considered too polished for folk music. His voice was criticized as being too good, too professional, and lacking in authenticity. Cisco responded to this accusation:

"There's always a form of theater that things take; even back in the Ozarks, as far as you want to go. People gravitate to the best singer...We have people today who go just the other way, and I don't agree with them. Some of our folksong exponents seem to think you have to go way back in the hills and drag out the worst singer in the world before it's authentic. Now, this is nonsense...Just because he's old and got three arthritic fingers and two strings left on the banjo doesn't prove anything."

Now personally, I'm fine with the old guy from the hills and two strings left on his banjo...(that quote makes me laugh every time I read it), but as Mr. Coonskin noted, it's the imitator I have trouble with. Jack White seems to be an imitator ....hey man , be yourself!! Doc was, Cisco was, Tommy, Roscoe,Hobart, Leadbelly, Woody,Ola Belle, they all were...they were genuine. Although imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery, the Genuine article reigns supreme every time.

I think oldwoodchuckb made a great point here, perhaps he remembers Cisco Houston?    

"The best Old Time Singers - are singers first and old time second. I think too many people think that in OT "Anything Goes". The fact is that if you don't have the voice, you should probably keep your mouth shut."        TOUCHE!!

Edited by - pastorharry on 05/30/2012 14:41:48

whyteman - Posted - 05/30/2012:  16:21:32

Ironically, I think Bascum was one of the finest of the Old Time singers to record pre-WWII. For me, the best post-WWII singer was Carter Stanley. I often wonder, had he lived as long as his brother, if he would have had an even more pronounced effect than Ralph on Old Time music. especially the singing aspect. And, please get yourself a copy of "Backroads To Cold Mountain". We should take up a collection and send one to the author of this thread!

RG - Posted - 05/30/2012:  16:25:02

Here's how to REALLY play and sing old time music...

youtube.com/watch?feature=play..._cmS-_k#!

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/30/2012:  16:35:31

And without non-preservationists, there would be no new music at all that would eventually get old and fossilized and have to be preserved in the face of the new music currently attracting the younguns.

Cajun music _started_ at one point and surely irritated the parents of the time.