mwc9725e - Posted - 05/16/2012:  16:55:48

Lately, I've been trying to play faster. One thing I've noticed is that the CH players I've watched who play fast play with what seems to be a very relaxed right hand. That, in turn, causes their index finger to flick a little bit. My problem is that this makes sense to me. 

As a use-to-be pretty good athlete, I know that keeping as relaxed as you can facilitates quick movement. As an engineer, I also think the movement of the entire forearm, wrist, and hand as a solid unit involves the movement of a lot of mass, and that's detrimental to quick acceleration and deceleration. The finger can flick relatively quickly, and a relaxed hand and wrist would seem to make perfect sense for fast playing. 

Does anyone agree, or if not, where the heck's the error in my thinking? I'm too old to waste much time going down the wrong track, but I've been practicing these things and I'm surprised how, in just a couple of weeks, my playing's become noticeably faster -- and the accuracy hasn't suffered, either. I'm very optimistic, but a good logical argument could persuade me to change my viewpoint.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 05/16/2012:  17:03:49

I've got no argument to make - I think your observation and reasoning are correct.

banjopar - Posted - 05/16/2012:  17:29:19

You are very much correct(grammer) !! I often practice while concentrating on a loose and smooth right hand while paying close attention to the timeing and tone of each note! Then add the volume of each and every note!

J-Walk - Posted - 05/16/2012:  17:34:47

You are 100% correct, based on what I've figured out about my own playing.

A couple of drinks aids in the relaxation and improves your playing. A couple more ruins it.

Bluesage - Posted - 05/16/2012:  19:28:35

I like the idea of a relaxed hand. I'm not so thrilled with the concept of "flicking" the finger...  

My favorite aspect of clawhammer technique is it's inherent "economy of motion" (which I'm sure an engineer also appreciates).  The thumb comes to rest against a string at exactly the same time as the fingernail strikes another string, essentially "cocking" itself in preparation to sound that string as the hand moves away. The result is two notes with two motions of the right hand: one as the hand moves into the strings (fingernail strike) and another as it moves away (thumb).  

When playing finger-style banjo (bluegrass, etc), the thumb and fingers move in opposition to each other.  Two notes now require four motions of the right hand: a finger come in and then back out for one note, another finger comes in and then out for the next note.

This concept is very hard to explain in writing so I hope you've been able to follow my thought process here...  



What I've been leading up to is this.  If you are playing your "strike" and "thumb" notes with separate motions of the right hand, then you are limiting your potential speed by one half (four right hand motions instead of two).  As to the observations you've made while analyzing other player's technique, the "flicking" motion you've noticed might just be the relaxed finger rebounding after it passes through a string.

I hope this is clear enough for folks to understand.  As I mentioned before, this concept is easier to demonstrate than write about...

Mike Iverson - banjoutah.com

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 05/16/2012:  21:17:02

I would say you should figure out exactly what you can do without flicking the finger - then stick to that. Most of the finger flickers I've met were a little too relaxed in their rhythm for me - and some were too relaxed in their rhythm for others too and usually couldn't find people willing to play with them.

I wager you can improve your speed without risking your rhythm. Just how fast do you want to go? It is the banjo, mostly the 8th note is as fast as it gets. Listen to Zepp, and Dan, and R.D. and Mike Iverson, and for that matter, even me on this. Read Mike's post over very carefully. It is hard to write about playing music, but he is exactly right about the subject. We teach and we are all aware of how much energy is lost in flicking, and how easy it is to fudge your way through the hard parts - there is even a noticable speeding up that many people do when they are having rhythm trouble. Stuff like that can make your playing nearly impossible to follow, an unpleasant experience for everyone.

If you can really keep the rhythm well, while flicking you fingers, think about what you could do if you got rid of the habit.

Actually, as I've said before, your playing is pretty darn good, and if you make no changes you'll do jes'fine. I would still worry about taking a "Don't Worry - Be Happy" attitude when it comes to technique. You can lose a lot when you give up on control. It is not a risk I would care to take.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 05/16/2012 21:34:36

Clawdan - Posted - 05/16/2012:  21:46:01

Several errors starting with your correct observation that the forearm is a heavy mass but the incorrect belief that using that forearm with hand and (locked or at least stiff) wrist is the "right" motion. It is almost ALL wrist - very relaxed with just finger taken by only the weight of the hand - also as a unit - no finger flicking as owc said - falling from the wrist across the strings with proper orientation of the playing and small aim-able fingernail edge (not face) catching the string as your hand falls WHILE the thumb slides just behind from the top of the fifths string and then as your hand is lifted from the wrist with ONLY enough force to overcome gravity (since you didn't THROW the hand down, only gravity took it) with the ONLY intentional motion catches the fifth string causing it sound - the final of the resultant motions of the entire stroke - leaving your hand gently ready to "fall" again for the next downbeat.

I could go on with this analytical dissection of this stroke, engineers amongst us appreciate it (so I am told) but I think you get what I'm trying to say.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

PS, even players who say and teach use of the forearm don't use that method when playing just to play.

Edited by - Clawdan on 05/16/2012 21:47:12

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/17/2012:  06:49:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bluesage

I like the idea of a relaxed hand. I'm not so thrilled with the concept of "flicking" the finger...  

My favorite aspect of clawhammer technique is it's inherent "economy of motion" (which I'm sure an engineer also appreciates).  The thumb comes to rest against a string at exactly the same time as the fingernail strikes another string, essentially "cocking" itself in preparation to sound that string as the hand moves away. The result is two notes with two motions of the right hand: one as the hand moves into the strings (fingernail strike) and another as it moves away (thumb).  

When playing finger-style banjo (bluegrass, etc), the thumb and fingers move in opposition to each other.  Two notes now require four motions of the right hand: a finger come in and then back out for one note, another finger comes in and then out for the next note.

This concept is very hard to explain in writing so I hope you've been able to follow my thought process here...  



What I've been leading up to is this.  If you are playing your "strike" and "thumb" notes with separate motions of the right hand, then you are limiting your potential speed by one half (four right hand motions instead of two).  As to the observations you've made while analyzing other player's technique, the "flicking" motion you've noticed might just be the relaxed finger rebounding after it passes through a string.

I hope this is clear enough for folks to understand.  As I mentioned before, this concept is easier to demonstrate than write about...

Mike Iverson - banjoutah.com

---

 Mike: I should have said the finger appears to flick. I think it's that way because a relaxed hand  will just naturally make it look like the finger's being flicked. I don't advocate it as a conscious decision.

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/17/2012:  06:53:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I would say you should figure out exactly what you can do without flicking the finger - then stick to that. Most of the finger flickers I've met were a little too relaxed in their rhythm for me - and some were too relaxed in their rhythm for others too and usually couldn't find people willing to play with them.

I wager you can improve your speed without risking your rhythm. Just how fast do you want to go? It is the banjo, mostly the 8th note is as fast as it gets. Listen to Zepp, and Dan, and R.D. and Mike Iverson, and for that matter, even me on this. Read Mike's post over very carefully. It is hard to write about playing music, but he is exactly right about the subject. We teach and we are all aware of how much energy is lost in flicking, and how easy it is to fudge your way through the hard parts - there is even a noticable speeding up that many people do when they are having rhythm trouble. Stuff like that can make your playing nearly impossible to follow, an unpleasant experience for everyone.

If you can really keep the rhythm well, while flicking you fingers, think about what you could do if you got rid of the habit.

Actually, as I've said before, your playing is pretty darn good, and if you make no changes you'll do jes'fine. I would still worry about taking a "Don't Worry - Be Happy" attitude when it comes to technique. You can lose a lot when you give up on control. It is not a risk I would care to take.

 

---

 I'm a Tim Erikson and Frank Fairfield fan. I'd love to be able to play as fast as they do -- on some tunes, not all. I'm coming around to the point of view that sometimes speed is appropriate and sometimes it's not, so I want to be able to play both ways.

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/17/2012:  07:01:08

Well, on the same night I made my original post, I encountered an interesting situation.

I was playing along on a real fast tune, with my new-found speedy technique, when I noticed some wisps of smoke that appeared to emanate from the nail on my index finger. And the strings on the banjo had taken on a slightly incandescent glow. Scared the heck out of me, so I won't be doing that again.

I haven't seen anything so bizarre since my wife ( who is somewhat on the heavy side ) was jogging, and the friction between the insides of her thighs caused her thighs to catch fire. A real 911 moment!

Sorry, I'm playing hookey from work today and just trying to have a little fun with you.

csbdr - Posted - 05/17/2012:  09:46:20

ooooooo.....don't let your wife see that post!

Just by accident I think I stumbled into this last night while I was playing. for whatever reason I let things come more from my wrist and thought I got a noticable improvement. I'm hoping after reading this that I can practice and reproduce it!

Bluesage - Posted - 05/17/2012:  09:47:40

I've always been more impressed by clawhammer players who have mastered the art of playing slow songs, and ironically, this can be the best way to find your speed.  If you slow a tune down to the point where it's almost excruciatingly hard to play, you'll find that your focus shifts to the subtleties.  Things such as:

• 
  How long should I sustain a note by holding down a finger of my left hand?


• 
  How far should I let my right "rebound" after striking a note?


• 
  Is my eighth note timing perfect when checked against a metronome?


• 
  Is the angle my right hand wrist such that the fingernails strike the string with the flat instead of the edge of the nail?

The simple act of slowing a piece down and focusing on technique can result in much faster and cleaner playing.  I'll attach a few songs, one slow, one medium, and one fast, so you can see how this approach has worked for me.  All are non-traditional tunes (excuse my voice on "Walls Of Time" as I hadn't warmed up and was singing flat).  Watch the right hand as that's what I usually focus on when slowing songs down to order to clean up my playing...   

VIDEO: Somewhere Over The Rainbow (click to view)

VIDEO: The Walls Of Time (click to view)

VIDEO: Wheel Hoss (click to view)

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/17/2012:  10:10:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bluesage



Is the angle my right hand wrist such that the fingernails strike the string with the flat instead of the edge of the nail?

 

---

You've hit on a question I started asking myself last night. What's the answer, flat or edge? I thought "edge", mainly because Dan Levenson's book indicates we should use a wrist action similar to knocking on a door. At least I think it was Dan's book, and that's just my paraphrasing what he ( or someone ) said. Based on that, it seems like "edge" would be the correct wrist angle, "flat" seems like it wouldn't be possible to "knock on the door". 

Maybe I've misunderstood and it's one of the things that's slowing me down. 

Bluesage - Posted - 05/17/2012:  10:52:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by mwc9725e

Based on that, it seems like "edge" would be the correct wrist angle, "flat" seems like it wouldn't be possible to "knock on the door".  

---

Try placing your right hand over the strings (playing position) and then completely relaxing it until the hand is hanging limp.  Now curl your fingers and, keeping the hand relaxed, start tapping your fingernails against the head of the banjo.  This should approximate the "knocking on the door" analogy while keeping your wrist positioned in such a way that the "flat" of the nail is striking the string.

Works for me...

mwc9725e - Posted - 05/17/2012:  10:58:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bluesage

quote:

---

Originally posted by mwc9725e

Based on that, it seems like "edge" would be the correct wrist angle, "flat" seems like it wouldn't be possible to "knock on the door".  

---

Try placing your right hand over the strings (playing position) and then completely relaxing it until the hand is hanging limp.  Now curl your fingers and, keeping the hand relaxed, start tapping your fingernails against the head of the banjo.  This should approximate the "knocking on the door" analogy while keeping your wrist positioned in such a way that the "flat" of the nail is striking the string.

Works for me...

---

 Thanks, I'll give that a try. I may never need to play fast, I too prefer slower tunes and songs, but it just bothers me that it's something I can't do. Thanks again.

jojo25 - Posted - 05/19/2012:  20:01:56

"I've always been more impressed by clawhammer players who have mastered the art of playing slow songs, and ironically, this can be the best way to find your speed.  If you slow a tune down to the point where it's almost excruciatingly hard to play, you'll find that your focus shifts to the subtleties.  Things such as:

• 
  How long should I sustain a note by holding down a finger of my left hand?


• 
  How far should I let my right "rebound" after striking a note?


• 
  Is my eighth note timing perfect when checked against a metronome?


• 
  Is the angle my right hand wrist such that the fingernails strike the string with the flat instead of the edge of the nail?

The simple act of slowing a piece down and focusing on technique can result in much faster and cleaner playing.  I'll attach a few songs, one slow, one medium, and one fast, so you can see how this approach has worked for me.  All are non-traditional tunes (excuse my voice on "Walls Of Time" as I hadn't warmed up and was singing flat).  Watch the right hand as that's what I usually focus on when slowing songs down to order to clean up my playing...   " 

yes, yes...a thousand times yes!

majikgator - Posted - 05/20/2012:  13:13:14

Relaxed Yes, flick no.

i have found that playing fast can sort of cover up mistakes but not really. i think if i can't play it slow then i really can't play it well and maybe it's time to go back to slow for a while. A problem with playing slow on a tune that is meant to be played fast is that you may add too many notes to your arrangement so keep that in mind.