R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/16/2012:  18:22:41

This could probably be a spin-off of the "Are We Losing the Human Element?" thread.

There was a time when aspiring players learned directly from the older generation.  One particularly attractive feature of this method was that it kept the generations connected.  Because I was fortunate enough to learn the majority of my music this way, I've never been affected by "the generation gap" as it used to be called.  Since my youth I always respected, appreciated, and was connected to the older folks I learned from, and by extension have always had an appreciation for all "old folks".  Musically, having this connection to the older folks gives the music an added dimension for me.  When I play any particular tune, it is likely to bring to mind a long-passed friend or relative, and that, in a sense keeps their memory alive for me, which is a priceless function of the music, and I might add one of its established uses in traditional societies.

I think that technology is valuable because it gives those who have no societal or familial connection to the music, or no opportunity to hear or learn it a chance to do so.  As such, it has been largely responsible for the current golden age of banjo playing.... maybe that is all that needs to be said.  The down side of technology is that in many cases it has eliminated the need for that connection via an unbroken line of consecutive generational contacts. 

I recall a dozen years ago when a young guy less than half my age was explaining to me how one of the old Round Peakers (can't remember which one), did it, and proceeded to give me unsolicited tips on how I too could get "the sound".  I guess it never occurred to him that I'd learned from another source.  There was a time when the young local would have learned from this old local, but due to the miracle of technology he was able to instruct me instead.

This is not about my feeling that "youngsters have no respect these days" or any other such ridiculousness, blah, blah, blah.

I often note that many folks post to the BHO in a way that implies they feel they are not part of the continuum.  I don't know though...are we?  Has technology made the last few generations dispensible when it comes to transmitting the art?  Obviously, the performance aspect is indispensible, but when young folks can bypass the last few generations and go direct to recordings and videos of the "real" old-timers or learn without ever interacting with another player, where does that place today's old-timers, and what does it do to that generational connection that is/was the hallmark of traditional music?  Instead of inheriting and passing on a legacy, are they merely learning period music?

There are many different valid perspectives on this...what's yours?    

cb56 - Posted - 03/16/2012:  18:55:22

As a fairly "old guy" of 56 I am thankful for  the opportunity to learn that the internet provides. Don't care if I learn from somebody younger than me or not. I started playing banjo last summer. I started playing uke the year before that. If it wasn't for the internet and the availability of information and instruction I probably wouldn't have picked up either one. Would it be cool to sit face to face with some old timer and have him teach me clawhammer banjo in person? Heck yes! But I don't think I would have had the opportunity for that to happen in my town. I'm not a great player of either instrument but I couldn't imagine my life without the joy of playing uke or banjo. Count me as happy that there is internet instruction and BHO.

Edited by - cb56 on 03/16/2012 18:56:44

Snaps - Posted - 03/16/2012:  18:58:32

Nicely written, Growing up in So. California and tho having a long musical background (guitars, dobro, lap steel...) I'm a couple years new to the music from those mountains. I didn't know clawhammer existed 5 years ago, sure I heard it but, I didn't "know" it.

I'll be 60 in 2 weeks, I see myself in your thoughts!

Snaps - Posted - 03/16/2012:  19:12:04

cb56, you and I are very lucky, It's all good!

SCclawman - Posted - 03/16/2012:  19:18:41

RD, 

I'm 29, and have been playing clawhammer for about a year now. One of the first times I heard clawhammer was on the Cold Mountain soundtrack. That led to me seeing Riley Baugus and Tim Eriksen in concert a few years after the movie came out. I kept hearing banjo music that sounded different from the normal bluegrass banjo music that I liked, but didn't love. At the time I first heard and fell in love with the cold mountain soundtrack, I didn't even know what clawhammer was. I had never heard the term. I also later heard some clawhammer on a Tim O'Brien album. So, I guess my point is that some of the newer players introduced me to the sound and style of clawhammer. It took over 5 years for me to finally have the courage to pick it up and try it out, and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made. 

You asked the following, "Has technology made the last few generations dispensible when it comes to transmitting the art?  Obviously, the performance aspect is indispensible, but when young folks can bypass the last few generations and go direct to recordings and videos of the "real" old-timers or learn without ever interacting with another player, where does that place today's old-timers, and what does it do to that generational connection that is/was the hallmark of traditional music?  Instead of inheriting and passing on a legacy, are they merely learning period music?"

My opinion is that we have the technology available, so lets use it. I would not be where I am today without the BHO especially, and the internet in general. I've listened to great players who post here regularly and I consider them to be "real" authentic players. I have only interacted with players on here. It's the only choice I've had so far. So for that I'm thankful. I don't feel like I'm learning "period music" in any way. At least I don't think of it that way. All I know is that it brings me a lot of pleasure to play these songs that have been around for many years. Sometimes I'm just playing "music" but most of the time, it feels like a lot more to me than just music. 

Good questions RD, look forward to reading the responses.

Quartermaster James - Posted - 03/16/2012:  19:21:35

Short answer: yes.

The long answer, IMHO, has more to do with boomers, economics, and the westward movement.

In my personal story, my father, though not a musician, hails from Hickory, North Carolina. My mom, again not a musician, from Washington DC.

(Yeah, my paternal grandfather joked about how both his kids grew up to marry Yankees!)

But things were such that when I was three or four, and my sister but a year old, we all packed into the Rambler station wagon and moved out west - where the jobs were. A common story for the times.

So, even were my folks musically inclined, we were thousands of miles removed from tradition. And that's why I, personally, am not part of any continuum, although I would, at one time, have been primely poised.

But, what happens then?

Well, what's happened in these last few decades is that the music has flourished on the west coast. It has a life that neither time nor distance can diminish.

And, yes, technology is once again a prime factor in this flourishing. Yes, "again".  This is not the first time technology has expanded the reach of our tradition. Yes, it's easy to be overwhelmed by the rapid growth of the information age, but the information age had a similar effect upon our tradition back in the days of much earlier technology. When Alan Lomax traveled and made his recordings, and when the Seeger's did the same, they were doing nothing less than, to the limits of the technology of their day, than what we are doing with the technology of ours. But where they were bridging the musical culture of counties and states, we are now able to traverse nations and continents with a fraction of the effort they expended.

And there's the rub: we're far further flung from one another than we once were. Where is the old local from which the younger is supposed to learn? You're damn lucky if he or she is just a walk down the holler away these days! Even without technology as an intermediary, the interpersonal interaction is most likely prematurely reduced to a teacher/student modality. That's a far cry from learning from someone around whom you grew up, shared other interests/occupations, or just spent a lot of "nonstructured time" around. It's really in the latter that I think is where we have lost the human element.

So, yes, I think it's easy to devolve from participating in a tradition to learning "how it was played" in a bunch of different styles. And I think the former is the hallmark of traditional music.

Okay, I'm rambling and am stopping now.

Fathand - Posted - 03/16/2012:  20:17:00

You are very lucky. Many of us, like myself, are first generation on this continent and have never even met any extended family. I do not know why I fell in love with the banjo and why I appreciate most types of roots music, maybe my first positive musical influence as a child was the folk boom in the early 60's and that caused it but I really only remember Peter Paul and Mary from then.

That said, when I first wanted to try banjo, someone of my own age got me started and I do my best to encourage and help others who are now starting. I do appreciate and have great respect for generations older than myself. It made me feel good when I started frailing Cripple Creek  at a bluegrass jam the other night where there were 6 banjos playing 3 finger and an old guy started bouncing up and down giving me the thumbs up and telling me to "do more of that stuff whatever I called it".  

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

This could probably be a spin-off of the "Are We Losing the Human Element?" thread.

There was a time when aspiring players learned directly from the older generation.  One particularly attractive feature of this method was that it kept the generations connected.  Because I was fortunate enough to learn the majority of my music this way, I've never been affected by "the generation gap" as it used to be called.   

---

twothphry - Posted - 03/16/2012:  21:21:13

     I think today technology trumps geography. I grew up in Souther California. My parents were staunch unionist and I grew up hearing and seeing Pete Seeger and the Weavers and what others would call leftists singers. I'm a boomer and went through the folk era while in college.Saturday nights in the frat house we'd grab our guitars and play folk music. It wasn't until I heard the Flatt & Scruggs at Carnegie Hall album that I got off on Bluegrass and banjo music.

    I got into the So. Cal Bluegrass scene and met and jammed with tons of great players. So. Cal had at that time a ton of people who migrated west for the job market. They brought their music with them. There were also lots of depression era refugees from the South and the Dust Bowl. My point being that even though I was living in So. Cal I was exposed to the music and the musicians.

   Ten years ago I moved to a remote town in No. Cal. There were no jams, except in Reno or Chico, and they were close to two hours away. My solution, start a monthly jam. I had a friend at the newspaper, who was a musician, and we placed a story in the paper about an upcoming jam. I got phone calls off the hook. Five years later the jam has expanded to twice monthly and is going strong. We now have a Bluegrass Festival that in it's third year now.

   Technology is what keeps those of us who live in geographically challenged areas connected to the music. I have been looking for a clawhammer teacher but they are few and far between in No. Cal where I live. BHO has been a godsend for me as it serves as a research library for me. I learn about technique, songs, collect tabs etc. I'd be lost without it.

   The internet is a huge repository of clawhammer and Old Time music knowledge. I can watch or hear a song on YouTube. I can go to several sites devoted to old time music and download out of print albums by long gone musicians that I might never have learned about. There are hundreds of ways the internet and technology have added to my knowledge of Old Time music and clawhammer banjo.

   At the end of this month, I'll be moving to the Las Vegas area to retire. I have already joined an Old Time music group as well as a Bluegrass Association so I can get my up close and personal version of the music. Being in a large urban area with transplants from all over the country affords me the opportunity to meet and learn from people from all over and distill their musical influence.

   Now after ten years, I have the best of both worlds. The human element and the technologic element. For people living in remote geographic areas, they have to rely on technology and the internet for their musical fix. Gone are the days when the front porch was a family's entertainment center.

kellypage - Posted - 03/16/2012:  21:54:08

As a young person, 23, I've used the internet and the BHO to learn and gather information about playing...

but some of the my most valued experiences have been with the musicians I've met through my local music shop and our "jam sessions" and lessons.

With the internet there is SO much information about banjo picking that I've often felt overwhelmed just trying to decide what strings are best. That being said, just getting someone on one advice really goes a long way.

Growing up with computers and cell phones has definitely changed the way my generation thinks and operates on a day to day basis, but most days I would just rather turn it all off. We're so connected! It's crazy. ha

cockneybanjo - Posted - 03/16/2012:  22:20:15

One thing that needs to be said about the internet, is that much of the content is unregulated, of very variable quality or plain wrong. I travel a good deal and visit local sessions or groups as opportunity permits. One thing I have found, is that there is nothing easier than learning other peoples' bad habits from the internet, or learning variations of popular tunes which are of no practical use in specific contexts - Soldiers' Joy seems to have a particular dose of this. That, or learning things which simply aren't correct, because your uneducated ear working in isolation can't tell the difference. 

You need the personal contact. Donald Zepp remarked elsewhere that the majority of people who start playing banjo give up within five years, never master the instrument, or both. I'm sure that the self-taught issue is a large part of that

bob gregory - Posted - 03/16/2012:  22:32:07

I think your right RD . I would truly like to hear  from one of our oldest members to see what they think ! 

Paul R - Posted - 03/16/2012:  23:13:26

Interesting points, RD. I'm 66 and first picked up the banjo around '73, after having played guitar since '65. My connection to old timers was mainly through that miracle of modern technology, the LP. Sing Out! magazine was also a source.  I saw the occasional old timer at the Mariposa Folk Festival. But the musicians I mostly saw were my own age, musicians into the old-time music. My only clawhammer lessons were from a nice young woman who was no doubt younger than I. People my age were playing music they loved, but could only be accessible "live and authentic" by driving a couple of days through a foreign country (at least we didn't need passports back then).

I would love to have had personal contact with many of the old masters. My only experiences were with one of the Lilly Brothers (can't say which one, I knew nothing about them at the time) who tried to evangelize me backstage, Elizabeth Cotten, who spoke of how "Freight Train" affected her success, and J.B. Hutto, who walked up to a blues jam I was in, started singing, and blasted it into the stratosphere. Pretty much all the others were younger. However, I don't discount those contacts. While not all "musical", they gave insight into the minds and motivation of the performers, and that means as much to me as any musical tips or instruction.

MarkRB - Posted - 03/17/2012:  05:09:13

Be 59 in seven days, been playing for four years. I don't think it matters how you learn or where you learn just so long as you learn.

banjered - Posted - 03/17/2012:  06:57:30

From my bio: "With sparse materials and no one to show me anything I remained a beginner for 10 years. Then I got a computer in '98, discovered BANJO-L and made more progress but later when the Hangout appeared along with videos and sound clips was when I finally got out of beginner stage. These days it is possible to learn more in one month than I could in a year (by myself, in isolation)."

Sure a OT teacher would be ideal, not always possible. BH continues to be my primary teacher - thanks to you all! Banjered

whyteman - Posted - 03/17/2012:  08:14:33

Yes!!! A quick note about us boomers.

One of the most disgusting thing about my generation was the veneration of "YOUTH CULTURE". Many of the people I went to high school with wondered why I listened to the music of those old geezers/greasers. Their hatred of "anyone over thirty" was the height of narscism.

Now my generation is greying. Ha! Serves them/us right for getting old.

Respect and learn from your elders. About life; not just music!

Don

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/17/2012:  08:55:05

I think it leaves you in the same place.

I suspect it was much harder to find old-timers in the olden days that it is to find good banjo teachers nowadays (and you've probably seen the posts on difficulties with that).

Maybe learning from a teacher was useful IF you could find one and IF he was any good and IF you liked the music.

I think the assumptions that _everyone_ learned from the old-timers is probably accurate but essentially means fewer people were able to learn. I like having more people learn and suspect that people who revere 'their expert' (the person they learned from) have always been obnoxious, regardless of how they found that particular expert and regardless of what you think of their expert.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/17/2012:  10:35:11

All very good (and valid) observations.
As previously said by many, the internet (along with
LPs, tapes books, videos, etc.) has been
a boon to learning the instrument and has made it
possible for many who would not have done so otherwise.
There's no way to return completely to the "old days" and it
probably wouldn't be the best thing anyway.

I speak of learning much of my music firsthand from the generation
or two preceding me, but living in modern times I also recognize the
impact technology has had on my music... it's not like I never learned
a lick or tune from a recording, book, or some other media. Media has
been around a long time anyway. 1850's manuals by Briggs, Rice, Converse,
etc.

Back to what I was saying about that young whippersnapper:
Recognizing the fact that you should play the music you want to play,
My banjo connection through my Dad and Mel Durham ultimately trace back
to a player named Jess Wright who was born in the 1840's and through Mel's
repertoire to one Alonzo Janes who was born a slave. This young guy might have
been part of this unbroken line of *personal* contacts, but ended up with tapes
and recordings of a musician he'd never met as a surrogate.
*********************************************************

Part of what I was getting at with "Have We Skipped a Couple of Generations?"
Is how do you feel about *your* place in the tradition and the transmission of the music?
Has the local "elder" practitioner been made largely irrelevant?

Quartermaster James - Posted - 03/17/2012:  10:48:03

quote:

---

Has the local "elder" practitioner been made largely irrelevant?

---

No, not at all.  I don't think one can become part of a lineage without direct transmission.

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/17/2012:  10:55:06

In my heart, I feel like I am the _most_ traditional of all traditional players.

And that's because I chose a traditional instrument (acoustic banjo) and played on it all the music I listened to while growing up and then I play on it whatever I find in common with whoever is in the same room with another musical instrument. I don't care if the instrument you are carrying was also played by your grandparents. Somehow I doubt the musicians of the 1800s or 1300s refused to play new music of any sort.

Of course, in most musicology and history eyeballs, I'm not traditional in any way shape or form because I'm not playing the same stuff my great-grandfather played on his instruments. Seems to me folks either have to say a tradition grows or it doesn't change at all (after the initial creation). 

I'm the one playing new songs to the banjo, unlike the 'theoretical" traditionalist who plays the songs he wishes he heard while growing up. I play Proud Mary, Ballad of Jed Clampett, and Let It Be in the same ways the folks of the 1850s played Johnny Booker and Oh Susannah (songs that were not traditional at that time--they were brand-new hits).

imo, the word 'tradition' is poorly-defined and is more of a philosophical category. You choose your idea of tradition and I'll choose mine the same way we will each decide independently whether consciousness is mandatory to hear sounds of trees falling in the forest.

To me, the crux of the question is: How many new songs are allowed before you aren't in the tradition any more?

I have no idea why folks think Bill Monroe's Bluegrass is traditional whereas Elvis Presley's Rock is not. They were both new forms of music.

whyteman - Posted - 03/17/2012:  14:10:47

It would be tricky for me to define if my banjo teacher when I was a teenager was an "elder".
He was only about 12 to 15 years older than me.

But in addition to playing music and being exposed to musicians that I was not familiar with, he had seen more "life" than I had. He was married, a couple of kids, had done a stint in the military. Yet he was not quite of an earlier generation.

Still, I felt as though he knew things, about life and music that made me feel very respectful to be his student. I'm not sure I would have felt that way in a "banjo camp" classroom setting.

Perhaps, at least for me, it was the one to one learning format that made the experience so meaningful. Teacher/student in the most intimate way possible.

Don

Don

twelvefret - Posted - 03/17/2012:  15:07:16

I got to meet and learn fiddle and banjo from Clyde Davenport over several years. While we play nothing alike, we share in what he taught me about being myself and playing the way that suited me, never copying someone else. He said he did it take way to. His favorite with Leonard Rutherford from Burnette and Rutherford (Man of Constant Sorrow) . He said Leonard was the smoothest fiddle player in Wayne County Kentucky. You don't here that usually today that someone liked someone's playing because it was smooth. I can tell Clyde wants his playing to be smooth and I took note.

RG - Posted - 03/17/2012:  17:34:52

Originally posted by twelvefret

"I can tell Clyde wants his playing to be smooth and I took note."

They don't call him "Clyde the glide" for nothing!  He is one of my favorite OT fiddlers and banjo players, I try to learn as many of his tunes on the fiddle as I can, just figured out "Last of Callahan" and "Jenny in the Cotton Patch" last week...and that 5 note slur into a 3 note slur on "Flatwoods" is about as smooth as it gets...on the banjo, I always play his "Polecat's Den" at any jam I go to...love that tune... 

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/17/2012:  18:22:40

I suspect there are more banjo players in the world now than there ever were at any time in the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries. The availability of teaching materials is a big factor in that. I started in 1068 with Pete Seegers book. There was a 16mm movie available for rent with examples from the book, but I had no access to a movie projector, so that was not an option. On the other hand, there were 2 or 3l accordion players on every street in Cleveland. I had a brother, an aunt and an uncle who played. I could have found help easily, had I wanted it. I played banjo for 5 or 6 years before I ever met another banjo player. There was a country music station on the radio from not too far away, on good days the reception was good, on bad days, not so good. There was very little banjo music on that station, mostly George Jones, Johnny Cash, Loretta Lynn, that era. Between my Kingston Trio records, and my cousin's Pete Seeger records, I was driven to play banjo. The internet was a long way off in 1968. There wasn't enough interest in such music for the radio station to play it, even now few music stores in Cleveland carry much of a banjo selection. Usually a Deering Goodtime, and maybe either a cheepo no name, or possibly a Fender or Epiphone. From an environment like this, the few banjo players are hard to find. Through BHO, I have located a couple of local players, but again, when I was learning that wasn't an option. Without the Seeger book, I would have been lost. Given all that, I managed to learn a lot of what Pete was teaching. But now, I can watch his Skip To My Lou video, and see some of what he was telling me. That's a big difference, and a big help to those starting now. I think we lose something when we don't learn directly from a mentor. If I could have asked questions, and seen certain things demonstrated, that would have been great. At the same time, some folks went south looking for mentors. And brought back a few misconceptions that have proven hard to escape. The idea that Clawhammer was the only real old time style, or that Round Peak was "Real" clawhammer , and everything else was bogus, we've all heard this discussion. Those who thought a few localized mentors were more than the tip of the iceberg were wrong. In the old days, when long distance travel meant staying over night, people had a localized teacher and learned that style. But across the mountain, something else prevailed. We don't have near as many Round Peak is the Holy Grail discussions as we had in the past. The pendulum is swinging, but ain't that what pendulums do?
Paul

hoverflytheo - Posted - 03/17/2012:  18:45:51

With your point about the young upstart giving you a lecture on round peak, I can't really tell if you're saying he was wrong to suggest there was "one way of doing things", or wrong about what that way was.

I would probably feel the same as you if someone, young or old, started telling me how I ​should ​be playing, wherever they claimed to get their authority from. They might be a mine of useful information, but if I wanted to know I'd ask. Or they might be trying to do a completely different thing with the banjo from me, in which case I'd just sit back and enjoy their playing for what it was.

I certainly don't assume that the few banjo players I meet face-to-face have more (or less) of a solid connection to the old masters - whoever they might be - than I do. For all I know they've learned from recordings, or from other people who've learned from recordings.

And, were I to find (or indeed look for) a "teacher" who'd learned from someone who'd learned from someone who'd learned from Mike Seeger who'd learned from Dock Boggs, would that necessarily put me in direct lineage to Dock Boggs? This kind of ties back to the "who was Hobart Smith trying to sound like" thread.

Statistically, most of the musicians I socialise with (and thus learn from, indirectly) are a generation or two older. By and large, they're not playing old-time. So my learning of those tunes might be skipping a living generation, but I don't feel isolated from the musical continuum in the slightest.

In order to learn old-time, I had to - in that sense - consciously decide to learn period music​. I think it very unlikely I would have ended up with a banjo in my hands by accident. But, even had I done so, if I'd merely looked around for a local old guy to show me how to play it, I would almost certainly have been taught bluegrass.

I would agree with minstrelmike's point too; the "folk tradition" is that there is no one "folk tradition". If I like someone's playing I'll take note of what I like about it. They might be playing a completely different instrument or genre. And hopefully vice versa!

clawhammermike - Posted - 03/17/2012:  22:40:03

When old-timers charge $60 a banjo lesson, not to many young-timers are going to sign up.  The old-timers might have some of the blame for this gap too.

twelvefret - Posted - 03/18/2012:  05:03:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by clawhammermike

When old-timers charge $60 a banjo lesson, not to many young-timers are going to sign up.  The old-timers might have some of the blame for this gap too.

---

 I don't begrudge any one for getting paid. The old men I learned from never charged me a dime, but we have exchanged things like a cake of rosin or a set of strings. The three that I consider to have helped me the most beside Mr. Davenport are fiddle makers Charles Jean Horner and J.W. Green. Horner being the youngest at 78.

5 finger ninja - Posted - 03/19/2012:  15:18:12

with most everyone between the ages of 13 and 30 being into Crap i mean Rap...music (if you consider it music that is) yeah we may have skipped a generation.

5 finger ninja - Posted - 03/19/2012:  15:45:22

and it all started with some caveman hunter realizing that his bow string made a sound when he plucked it and here we all are today. We are all connected as musicians:)

bohemian - Posted - 03/19/2012:  18:23:02

I do recall when  music lessons were priced about the same as the prevailing average wage. Not the case now.

Waaay back, folks got together to play and exchanged licks and tricks. Now people seem to be more guarded and attach a monetary value to their skills.

There are  more guitar teachers around now than when I was a kid.

My friend and neighbor is a long time Segovia student, touring concert guitarist, former head of the guitar department for a major university. He offers lessons to me and other friends at no charge.

Most of what I know about playing came to me through other players up and until the mid 70's, beyond that the trend changed.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/19/2012:  23:46:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by hoverflytheo

With your point about the young upstart giving you a lecture on round peak, I can't really tell if you're saying he was wrong to suggest there was "one way of doing things", or wrong about what that way was.

 

---

 Neither.

What I was getting at was that myself and other local players had been replaced as a learning resource by tabs and recordings.  

banjosnapper - Posted - 03/20/2012:  03:50:54

The internet is information. The lifeblood of music is playing live with other people.

Like others say here, the net is a really good thing. I started Minstrel Banjo late in life. If it were not for the net, I would not have learned about it because nobody does it where I live. I learned it, but it became alive when I got together with other players at AEBG I.

I teach music for a living, and try to bring "old school" experience to this generation...in the midst of all the technology. I use it for a tool, but not exlusively. I am grateful to turn on Youtube in a lesson to show Thelonius Monk playing

Rizo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  05:12:06

quote:

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Originally posted by 5 finger ninja

with most everyone between the ages of 13 and 30 being into Crap i mean Rap...music (if you consider it music that is) yeah we may have skipped a generation.

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Being just now 30, and having played banjo since I was 25 or so (and having played mandolin and bluegrass guitar since I was 21) I find attitudes like this repugnant. You're not doing anyone any favors by gross over-generalization, and certainly not doing the musical tradition any good either. 

Like Dan says, play nice. Share the love. 

hoverflytheo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  07:32:02

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

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Originally posted by hoverflytheo

With your point about the young upstart giving you a lecture on round peak, I can't really tell if you're saying he was wrong to suggest there was "one way of doing things", or wrong about what that way was.

 

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 Neither.

What I was getting at was that myself and other local players had been replaced as a learning resource by tabs and recordings.  

 

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Playing usually starts by wanting to sound like what you like hearing (and know.) But if you don't grow up among other players in the community, you find your sound elsewhere...

When I meet another banjo player, I'm always a bit akward at first. Because, yes, I am usually younger than them. And yes, I've got my own way of doing things and my own sources for tunes and technique.

I wouldn't presume to try and tell people how to sound like me, but if I felt that my way of playing or learning was being questioned - directly or indirectly - I'd want to defend it, which might involve pointing out I was trying to play more like X player or recording rather than Y player or recording.

This player you met might really have felt like you'd benefit from doing things his way to sound like the music he knew and loved (and assumed all banjo playing should aspire to), but he could just have been showing you how/why he ​did things the way he did.

I don't feel I'm rejecting the wisdom of senior musicians, but if I couldn't learn from recordings then I'd probably learn a lot from tab and sheet music, since that's the way I'm most comfortable learning things anyway.

5 finger ninja - Posted - 03/20/2012:  08:26:39

Rizzo ,I didnt mean to step on any toes buddy. Im sure that there are plenty of people your age and younger(im only 36 myself) that are into real music. Thats fantastic,but i guess I see too much of the other folks constantly banging their noisy car stereos in front of my house...it gets old lol! 90 percent of the people in my neighborhood are appalacian descent but I really doubt most of them have a clue who Earl Sgruggs is,cause there too busy poising there mind with gangsta rap, its sad.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/20/2012:  09:05:50

quote:

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Originally posted by hoverflytheo

 

 

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1) Playing usually starts by wanting to sound like what you like hearing (and know.) But if you don't grow up among other players in the community, you find your sound elsewhere...

 

 

2) This player you met might really have felt like you'd benefit from doing things his way to sound like the music he knew and loved (and assumed all banjo playing should aspire to), but he could just have been showing you how/why he ​did things the way he did.

 

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 1)  A good point.

2)  The "whippersnapper" was more of an illustration, and a bit peripheral to the discussion, but for what it's worth, his tone was instructional not explanatory.  That's fine... it's not like I was insulted or felt disrespected.  I just chalked it up to his lack of experience, and by the way he was a decent player.

hoverflytheo - Posted - 03/20/2012:  15:27:44

quote:

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Originally posted by 5 finger ninja

with most everyone between the ages of 13 and 30 being into Crap i mean Rap...music (if you consider it music that is) yeah we may have skipped a generation.

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Surely it's as much up to the preceding generation to pass music down. I didn't grow up with a family or community playing live music but I did grow up with an eclectic family collection of recorded music which shaped my taste for the music I know play (although hardly any of it was explicitly old-time.)

I felt that music and music like it was "my" music more than the music which might happen to be the predominant taste of my generation.

RG - Posted - 03/21/2012:  00:25:02

Originally posted by 5 finger ninja

"with most everyone between the ages of 13 and 30 being into Crap i mean Rap...music (if you consider it music that is) yeah we may have skipped a generation."

Personally, I think that a lot of the "new old time" new age soft rock chamber music players and groups out there fall into the same category...I don't know if I would say that we have skipped a generation as much as I would posit that a lot of folks playing this music today have ignored or are totally uninterested in what came before...

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 03/21/2012:  03:01:43

It's one of those negative facets of modern life.  Generations of families have been separated by economic migration chasing a "better life" through gainful employment.  The nature of that gainful employment has devolved from organized massed labor activities to many smaller enterprises that are competing with each other and each person encouraged to look out for number one.   The material results are easily recognized, big homes stuffed with shiny things and gizmo's but one of the hidden costs is the stymied Grandparent/Grandchild relationship within a family.  This lack of family contact and the "busy chasing the last dime" mentality can cause the generations to become estranged; this estrangement is not limited to Grandparent/child.  In some households the same chasm exists between parent & child, which the adults often seek to fill with more shiny things and gizmo's!   This paucity of inter-generational contact impacts on wider social interactions, each generation has a pool of friends that become ostracized too.  

Too often the lack of familiarity and the current penchant for being self centered & hard nosed in all aspects of life results in each generational party denigrating the other.  There's explicit denigration i.e.  "the lack of respect from young people today" or "old people overloading the system".  Also there's the unconscious type such as "I pity the young today how are they going to..." & "older people know nothing about technology".  The reality is we are, were or will be in one of those generational groups simply by the passing of years! 

But because we live in a modern age where; we look out for ourselves; have societies driven by fears; and attach too much worth to the get rich quick/they're all out to take away what is yours drivel, expounded by celebrities and the commercial media; modern society has inserted an unnatural break in the continuum between generations.  

So in answer to RD's original question "have we skipped a couple of generations?" my answer is yes.  

But I'd also add that it isn't irreversible.  The persons charged with stewarding life's myriad of continua are reading this text!   If it's important to you, whenever the opportunity arises, take the time to interact with different generations to your own.  Live & learn, give & take, you've nothing to lose but aloofness. 

rgds

Chris

Clodhopper - Posted - 03/21/2012:  04:38:49

I think the generational divide may be more of an urban than rural thing.  I live in a rural area and have plenty of friends who would be old enough to be my parents, and even grandparents, as well as young enough to be my children.  When you have fewer people to chose your friends from you tend to cast a wider net.  In my case there  isn't a whole lot of musical (almost no old time) knowledge that I've gained from hanging out with the older folks.  My area doesn't have a real strong surviving music tradition.  But the agricultural and historical info is fantastic.  

Bart Veerman - Posted - 03/21/2012:  08:14:55

Many thanks for painting such a romantic picture RD, I can just imagine you sitting on a porch trying to learn from an elder. For many of of that was simply not an option as there were/are no elders to learn from one-on-one. The closest we could hope to get was trying to soak up every note we heard from records (ooops, vinyl). I was lucky enough to find someone my own age in the seventies who got me going on the banjo. He also got me real curious about where all that wonderful music came from so one year our vacation took us down south. still have a picture somewhere of a sign that said "welcome to Galax."

Sadly, well, it was a huge downer. Didn't see anyone on any porch pickin' any banjo, talk about a deflated dream. People pointed me to a record store but all they had was the best of Roy Clark etc. I did end up picking up Don Reno's Christmas album and I like it a lot but it sure wasn't old time clawhammer.

Made me wonder though, all them records I'd been listening to where someone traveled around with a tape recorder treated us on a whole bunch of people playing the old time way. What if the tape recorder guy was really looking for Fred Ziffel or Barney Fife but couldn't find them? Maybe somebody told them go see Wade [Ward], or Fred [Cockerham], bring them six pack and maybe you can get him to play for you. They only know three songs but it's better than nothing and worth a shot while you're here...

I'm really glad the internet is around now so all the folks like me who did not grew up in Kentucky or the Carolinas or where ever else down south, that we still have an opportunity to see and hear our heroes. Not quite skipping generations but it's more of a make do with what you can get your hands on. Yup, still dreaming about sitting on a porch somewhere learning from an elder though - I'll be hanging on to that wonderful image for quite a while yet and thank you for reminding me of it.

Edited by - Bart Veerman on 03/21/2012 08:17:47

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/21/2012:  09:38:54

quote:

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Originally posted by plunknplinkntwang

The material results are easily recognized, big homes stuffed with shiny things and gizmo's but one of the hidden costs is the stymied Grandparent/Grandchild relationship within a family.  

Chris

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 Great post Chris.  You bring into focus the larger picture... that of a generational divide and the overall loss associated with it of which the music is only a small part.  When you learn music from an elder, you learn a lot more than music (because as we all know, we can do that to a degree without any personal contact whatsoever).

In the end everyone suffers:  The kids end up in day care, the grandparents in a retirement community.  (Just an observation... I well know that despite the best intentions life can sometimes force those choices.)

***************************************************************

Bart wrote:  Many thanks for painting such a romantic picture RD, I can just imagine you sitting on a porch trying to learn from an elder.

Well, it wasn't quite that way.  The circumstances were somewhat similar, but nowhere near as romantic.  My Dad was part of the Midwestern/Southern exodus to the West Coast during the Depression.  I learned out there (in Los Angeles) from folks that were part of that diaspora.  My connection was having a father that played some banjo and told lots of stories, and would take us on visits to Missouri.  Because he loved old-time music, I ended up spending Sundays at the local fiddler's association in the late '60's and early '70's and met some of the "tradition bearers", many of them born between the 1880's and 1920's. Guys like Earl Collins and Mel Durham.  Mel was especially influential. My mentor really.  For me, Mel's family room was the equivalent of the front porch of a log cabin.

Later, I relocated to the Missouri Ozarks and met men like Bob Holt and Bill Conley.  The Ozarks had the whole picture... great players, jams in little country stores that were more like extended family get-togethers, and just the very landscape where the music just rises up out of the ground.  The people and the place are the bigger picture of which the music is just an element.

I'm not one of those guys that made pilgrimages to Tommy's house and learned at his feet.  Most of us aren't.  The luck of the draw just happened to land me in a family that had those connections.  Being raised in L.A. I could have just as easily lost/ignored that connection or had a father who left our heritage behind.  There's no looking down on folks who learned from a book,a video, an LP record, etc.  No matter how we came across it we have the music and we ARE part of the continuum.

 What Chris says hits the nail on the head:

But I'd also add that it isn't irreversible.  The persons charged with stewarding life's myriad of continua are reading this text!   If it's important to you, whenever the opportunity arises, take the time to interact with different generations to your own.  Live & learn, give & take, you've nothing to lose but aloofness.

No matter how we've picked up our music it is now ours to pass on and infuse with the human element.  WE are that elder generation regardless of age, if not chronologically then musically.  Technology with its de-humanizing aspect will obviously always be with us, and I would be lying if I denied that I have benefited musically from it as well.  Even so, like Chris says we can still keep the generational connection but it takes interest in both young and old...we can only do OUR part and let the chips fall where they may.

The banjo is one of those bulwarks against an over technologized society.  Fortunately, the old Beverly Hillbillies/Deliverance/Hee-Haw  stereotypes have faded, especially with old-time music which does not sound familiar to the mass of people (as opposed to Bluegrass).  There are lots of opportunities to reconnect.

The world needs us banjo-players whether it realizes it or not.  Sometimes I forget that too.  Thanks for the reminders.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 03/21/2012 09:56:30

5 finger ninja - Posted - 03/21/2012:  10:12:20

R.D. my grannie was from the ozarks in MO. A lot of her family were pickers, but I never got to meet any of them,such a shame. Im gonna take a trip someday out ther just to check it out. My moms folks were pickers to but I didnt get to spend thata much time around them they were is eastern Ky and im in ohio. I learned mostly on my own.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/21/2012:  13:32:43

I agree, when we learn at the knees of our elders, we learn so much more than music. The whole culture is passed down from the elders. This culture is also taught to those family members who never take up an instrument. They understand the culture that went with the music at the time they were growing up, and before, as far back as their mentors memories went. We who learn from modern sources will lose a lot of that, and it is a great loss. Not so different from kids who think meat originates in Styrofoam trays at the grocery store. And to a great extent, I believe it is irreversible. When I talk to musicians in my wife's family, from W Va., I realize how much has been lost even to them. A great many only know old time music as distilled through the hands of bluegrass players, and sixties country music. Culture, and family history, are fragile things, capable of disappearing in a blink of an eye with the loss of a few family members. As elders pass away, a lot goes with them. I have my Dad's old guitar, which I learned to play as a teen. I never saw him play a single note on it. I have no clue how he would have sounded. My mother never heard him play it. That's info that may only have meaning to me, but I wish I had one song I could play and say "Dad taught me this song." His tastes ran much more towards Enrico Caruso and Mario Lanza, so I guess guitar wasn't really his interest. But this is what happens when we lose elders without them passing on what they know. If it weren't for the fact that Tao Rodriguez Seeger's elder wrote a banjo book, I might not know how to play banjo at all.
Paul

ScottK - Posted - 03/21/2012:  15:17:40

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford



What Chris says hits the nail on the head:

But I'd also add that it isn't irreversible.  The persons charged with stewarding life's myriad of continua are reading this text!   If it's important to you, whenever the opportunity arises, take the time to interact with different generations to your own.  Live & learn, give & take, you've nothing to lose but aloofness.

No matter how we've picked up our music it is now ours to pass on and infuse with the human element.  WE are that elder generation regardless of age, if not chronologically then musically.  Technology with its de-humanizing aspect will obviously always be with us, and I would be lying if I denied that I have benefited musically from it as well.  Even so, like Chris says we can still keep the generational connection but it takes interest in both young and old...we can only do OUR part and let the chips fall where they may.

---

 

That's the bottom line for me.  I'm fortunate in that I have four kids who are all young adults now and all enjoy old time music.  When they were teens we started going as a family to the monthly square dances in Portland featuring Foghorn Stringband with Bill Martin calling.   We all had a great time.  Eventually my two sons and I all learned to play old time music on a mix of fiddles, guitars, and banjos and we enjoy playing together from time to time.  My wife and two daughters don't play, but they enjoy going to the square dances.  Recently my youngest son and I got to play for a couple square dances together which was a lot of fun.  But I don't get to play music with my sons all that often.  Much more often I'm playing at jams and house parties in the area with friends young and old.  I try to help support the local old time music community and promote the human interaction by hosting picking parties, fiddle/banjo workshops, house concerts, and even the occasional house square dance when I can.  Apart from passing on the tradition, it's been a lot of fun and I've made a lot of friends.

Scott

whyteman - Posted - 03/21/2012:  20:39:19

One of my greatest thrills is when I'm playing out somewhere, and some little kid's attention is riveted on the banjo player. The banjo player always smiles and sometimes waves. Always acknowlege the kids who are attentive. You never know.

Don

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/21/2012:  23:47:22

quote:

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Originally posted by ScottK



 1)...with Bill Martin calling.   We all had a great time.

2) I try to help support the local old time music community and promote the human interaction by hosting picking parties, fiddle/banjo workshops, house concerts, and even the occasional house square dance when I can.  Apart from passing on the tradition, it's been a lot of fun and I've made a lot of friends.

Scott

---

 1) Bill and Nancy were the first OT musicians I met up here.  They had a jam at their house in Vancouver 15 years ago I went to a few times.  Also played with them a few other times.  Nancy was to me a great fiddler and I loved her personality.  I used to get a charge out of Bill's tuba playing too.  I mean June Apple with tuba providing the bass line?!?!   Lots of great memories.  Now that is the human element at its best.  They did a lot to nurture the Portland OT scene...nearly singlehandedly in the old days.  I think a lot of musicians and callers can trace their involvement directly to Bill and Nancy.  Local "elders"?  Definitely!!!

2) We've not yet crossed paths, but your name is well-known Scott.  I think you do a heck of a lot to nurture the OT scene in Portland as well.  I was speaking with John Bowlin on the phone this evening and your name came up.  John mentioned you in a very complimentary way and spoke of your involvement in the local scene and your sponsoring of so many great out-of-town musicians.  You do a lot of good for Old-Time Music, and help keep the local scene thriving. Local "elder"?  Definitely!!!

mojo_monk - Posted - 03/22/2012:  05:17:16

Great thread with much to digest.

One thing I have noticed in a few of the metro-areas in the US is the occurrence of the "folk school", or some such organized venue developed for the passing on of folk traditions (music, crafts, stories. etc). Typically these places are attended by people anywhere from 25-60+ years of age, and in my experience "students" have degrees of interest varying from "weekend warrior" to budding ethnologist. Given the picture so eloquently painted by plunknplinkntwang (aka Chris) it seems inevitable that such places would develop at this time in our history - specifically as a rebellion of sorts against the rising of an increasingly homogenized, tech-centered culture in which we are alienated from each other and from ourselves. The same can be said for the apparent explosion of interest in traditional (aka "country") dance - most specifically "square dance" - across the country. Once again, much to chew on here.

I think the "folk school", if done well, can fill the generational gap we seem to be talking about in this thread. Instructors can (and should) take on the role of "elder" and use her or his position as a way to pass on stories, source recordings, tunes, etc., to those who are coming up. This is all assuming that the instructor has taken the process of his/her own formation in the tradition seriously and has acquired the knowledge to pass on in the first place. Fortunately enough for us, technology is our friend when it comes to accessing old recordings & stories and (for better or worse) anyone can become a novice historian/musicologist with a little bit of effort.

The rub is in the teaching: don't assume that everyone wants to know what you have to teach or that your method is the end-all-be-all. Humility is key. Teaching others is a privilege and an opportunity to share, point blank period. Any other approach is a joke and an exercise in stroking your own ego. A sure way to lose students and turn the light off.

-Sean

P.S., @ RD: Bill Conley is coming to the Folk School in STL this Saturday and will be giving an Ozark fiddle workshop. That night he'll be playing a square dance with a few of the local OT music celebs. Very exciting!

Edited by - mojo_monk on 03/22/2012 05:17:56

Viper - Posted - 03/22/2012:  08:52:26

No one in my family played music. Nor did I ever know anyone who played the banjo until I took it up myself and started going to jams. While I first started learning through the Internet and books and DVDs -- the modern niceties -- the banjo provided me a resource for meeting new people and learning from them, knee to knee. For me, one doens't come without the other. The banjo helped me better appreciate the human element and learning from older generations.

banjot - Posted - 03/22/2012:  11:55:01

At the time I didn't think of it as such, but I seem to have been brought up in one of those musical families. I first learned to play guitar from my Aunt. Not the "good stuff" like the Carter Family but China Town My Chinatown, Five Foot Two, etc. We played at family gatherings with the entire family singing along. She dragged me along to her friends houses who played and sang. We'd end the evening at an Italian guys house with Santa Lucia, at a Polish woman's house it was Beer Barrel Polka, etc. Obviously this all took place in an urban setting. (Camden, NJ)

I later discovered "folk music" and later still got interested in old time...so much so that I moved to the mountains. There I got to play with a bunch of great folks; some of whom seemed to have somehow become deified as fiddle and banjo gurus; others who've been forgotten or never really known. It was not all that different from playing in New Jersey: different music/similar social setting. It crossed generations in both situations. In the mountains, a lot of the old timers' kids leaned more toward bluegrass-not as a generation gap but more like a step or two in the evolution of music.

From where I sit, the change is more about family and community. Communities are no longer limited by geography. Families aren't necessarliy restricted to blood relatives. The BanjoHangout is one of those new communites where an exchange like this can take place in between some of the most esoteric minutia about tunng a banjo head and the diary of a "71 year old newbie." If you get to have fun dancing and playing music with people I'm not sure it matters all that much if you learned it from your father or Youtube. Let's face it, there's probably a lot more square dances with live old time music on college campuses now than at rural VFW halls. It's all good.

Tom Mylet