whyteman - Posted - 03/22/2012:  13:59:08

Billy: the ultimate mentor.

jojo25 - Posted - 03/22/2012:  14:13:08

Christine...where you like a philosopher or something in a previous life:)?

patience comes to all who wait long enough

banjoak - Posted - 03/22/2012:  17:34:04

I agree with much of the sentiment posted. Especially that there is a value to the human contact, you get more than just the notes and technique. Some of my most valuable "lessons" for playing came from when the music was not playing, the stories, little snippets of conversations between tunes, some of which were subtle messages that (as in the nature of language) conveyed much better live, in context, with tone of voice, body language, facial expression.

But that said, I have also witnessed (if not fell victim to) giving too much credence or weight to just because someone is old, or for that matter just because they were born in a specific geography. As well might have dismissed what someone had to offer because they were young or currently from the wrong geography.

banjopogo - Posted - 03/22/2012:  21:36:03

I think we have partly skipped a couple generations because playing old fashioned stuff wasn't popular in the late 70's, 80's and 90's like it was in the 50's and 60's when kids were learning lots of stuff from old bluesmen or old folksingers.
Everything was going modern and digital and computer-oriented during those decades. Back then, I would write songs or sing folk-style songs, and people would whine and say stuff like "Why does everything you write have to sound like it's a hundred years old?" or "Folk music is passe!"
I think it's a result of that that you don't find that many thirty-somethings and forty-somethings or even early fiftysomethings playing Old Time music. Lots of late fifty-somethings and sixty-somethings, and a whole bunch of twenty-somethings and maybe starting to be a fair number right around thirty.

strokestyle - Posted - 03/23/2012:  07:51:22

Joe when I was a young I was convinced I was a horse in the previous life. Drove my mom crazy galloping on all fours and snorting.  We had a carnival in my back yard to raise money for the blind people. My sister, brothers and I put together a whole circus type event. Sold snow cones and popcorn raised a little over $60.00, which at the time was tons of money. One of the big tent scenes was me bucking a Raggedy Ann doll off my back and jumping over garbage cans.  Boy am I glad they did not have smart phones and video accessibility then. No philosophy required.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/23/2012:  11:27:36

This connection to the culture is exactly what's been lost. Things we don't get through the video lessons are disappearing from the culture. I don't guess there is much we can do about it, it goes on in every culture. My Ma once told me about watching her Ma make cheese. Granny was gone, and Ma couldn't remember the process. It went away, gone like a cool breeze. 35 or so years ago, my wife wanted to spend Decoration Day (Memorial Day, up in Cleveland) with her family, so we drove down to W Va. for a few days. We stayed at her sisters, but all drove to an uncles for the holiday. All us guys went up to clean the family graveyard, while the ladies fixed lunch. After lunch, the music came out. It turned out I had married into a family that contained it's own bluegrass band. I'm a city kid,with no rural life, but at Uncle Joe's we played ball in a pasture with the younger cousins. We went back there with an aunt & uncle 2 years ago. After Uncle Joe passed away, someone else bought the land, and later it was sold again. There is a Russian Monastery there, raising sheep & goats. I recognized it, but only just. My wife was so depressed she doesn't want to see it again. She has only one aunt still living in that holler. But her parents are both buried in that family plot up on the ridge. I have only a very limited connection to the music we all love so much, and even at that, it was to a newer variation of that music than I personally lean towards. Just the idea that we would go to clean the graveyard and plant flowers every spring was a glimpse into a past that is fading. A lot of those people are gone, the ones left are well up in years. The culture that remembered the old songs is fading. The radio stations that made The Carter Family big are playing Lady Gaga now. I'm glad there are those who still play the old music, and that I can be a part of that small piece of a culture that was so different from mine. Those who introduced me to that culture were very welcoming. I never feel like an outsider when we visit, though a lot of the ones we visit were small kids when we first married. When people talk of the hospitality they found when visiting Tommy Jarrell, he sounds like any one of my inlaws.
Paul

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/23/2012:  11:32:14

The connection to the culture disappears when the culture disappears.

Once the culture is gone, then it can be romanticized, the best days remembered and the bad years forgotten.

same old same old.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/23/2012:  19:55:49

For everything that is gained something else is lost.


Paul I truly appreciate your most recent post.

Ernest M - Posted - 03/23/2012:  21:49:31

This topic comes up about every six months.  You have those who grew up in the "culture" and learned from the "old masters" and everyone else.  I am one of those everyone else types. If I had stuck to my personal "culture" and the music played by my "people", I would be playing in a Latin big band or maybe a mariachi band. But I made a choice to try to learn to play clawhammer style banjo (something that would probably make my father roll over in his grave) because I wanted to be able to play with new friends and learn a different type of music then what I had studied in college.  When I first showed up to play with the local old time music jam, nobody asked me what my background was, they just wanted to know what tunes I knew and if I could keep up.

If the only people playing old time were people whose people had played old time, and those who had the opportunity to learn from old timers, then BHO would be a much smaller and much less interesting place.  Instead, we have players from Japan, China, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark and just about any other country you can name (I still waiting to see someone from North Korea post on BHO ). I understand lamenting the loss of culture, but that is something that is happening to people all over the world. At least here, a group of people have come together  to share, celebrate and preserve something that we all enjoy and love.  Is the music going to change? Of course it is.  We are all human, not machines.  Change is what we do. Change is what keeps us alive.

HolyGrass - Posted - 03/24/2012:  06:54:49

At 23 I'm certainly a youngster to the "Old time" community. Before the last year and a half or so I had never even met another person who plays old time banjo; plenty of bluegrassers though! I actually started out trying to learn bluegrass banjo, but it never really took off for me. I've always played some form of instrument, so the main thing for me was finding the style. I had probably heard old time music somewhere along the lines, because a lot of the tunes felt very, very familiar, but I couldn't place from where I had heard them.

One of the first times I remember hearing clawhammer was from Jerry Garcia from The Grateful Dead; he did a lot of banjo work with David Grisman, mostly 3 finger picking stuff. Fortunately I was able to use the internet to find out just what that sound was that I loved so much. From then I've dug and dug trying to find the oldest sources and old timers that I could.
Personally, I think it would be much easier to learn from an "old timer" in person, 1 on 1, but unfortunately there just aren't enough of them to go around.. or at least I haven't found one yet. I certainly always take tips and criticism from older members of the "old time" community; or even younger, for that matter!

One thing is for sure, my soon to be born child (my first one!) will certainly be raised around banjo and fiddles and traditional music. Some things are so important and so real that they will never be lost... they might go through some changes, as everything does, but certainly will "not fade away"

HolyGrass - Posted - 03/24/2012:  06:59:10

On a side note, it's a goal of mine to eventually have a little homestead and attempt to "live the life" similar to the old timers

=)



this topic reminds me of the Osborne Brothers song "Georgia mule"



"I see lots of kids these days wearing jeans of faded blue,

they never walked behind a plow, but they're nostalgic too...

And who have you seen lately churnin butter?

Who do you even know that might know how??

I ain't knockin progress, but it hurts me some to sayyyyyy

Georgia mules and country boys are fading fast away"

Edited by - HolyGrass on 03/24/2012 06:59:51

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/24/2012:  11:46:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by HolyGrass

Personally, I think it would be much easier to learn from an "old timer" in person, 1 on 1, but unfortunately there just aren't enough of them to go around.. or at least I haven't found one yet. 

---

 This has been an interesting discussion with lots of sidebar topics coming up.  

Initially what I was getting at (and maybe didn't communicate clearly) were the modern "old-timers" generations (that would basically be those that are nowadays labeled "baby boomers")   not the old "old-timers" who were born around 1900, give or take a couple of decades and who are long gone anyway.

The "skipped" generations I am talking about were born in the '30's through the '60's... have they been largely skipped as mentors due to the extensive availability of technology?  In other words, when you can learn from archival recordings are you going to bother with that 60 year-old dude that learned during the folk-boom? 

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 03/24/2012 11:47:29

riverstein - Posted - 03/25/2012:  01:13:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote: The "skipped" generations I am talking about were born in the '30's through the '60's... have they been largely skipped as mentors due to the extensive availability of technology?  In other words, when you can learn from archival recordings are you going to bother with that 60 year-old dude that learned during the folk-boom? 

---

 Seems to me that it's difficult to bypass those 60-70 year old dudes since they're on the Internet bewailing the death of the oral tradition!  (And also of course offering many helpful comments.)

Has there ever been a time when "the tradition" consisted exclusively of knowledge handed down from mentor to disciple, or is that a romantic vision of the reality? Recordings have obviously played a key role in the spreading of information about 'old time' music for a hundred years. And, for instance, the creative end of the late 1950s folk revival (New Lost City Ramblers etc) had everything to do with study of old recordings. That study led to more direct engagement with the sources.

You can't become interested in a music unless you have some access to it. if 'technology' - whether in the form of sheet music, recordings, DVDs or youtube footage - makes it more widely available, I'm all for it. 

mojo_monk - Posted - 03/25/2012:  05:42:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by riverstein

You can't become interested in a music unless you have some access to it. if 'technology' - whether in the form of sheet music, recordings, DVDs or youtube footage - makes it more widely available, I'm all for it. 

---

Agreed, but "sheet music, recordings, DVDs, or youtube footage" should not be the "X" on the Old Time treasure map, in my opinion. I think we all agree that these things are helpful and can fill an important role in the learning process, but I think that anybody who feels even the slightest urge to actually go in search of more should make a real effort to do so.

To get to another point recently raised in this discussion, I've been wondering for a while how the "boomers" will react when (and if) they are sought out person-to-person for tutelage by the next crop of "Young Fogies". There are a hand full of people within driving distance on my list whom I'd love to spend a weekend picking with one on one, learning tunes and hearing stories. I had the great privilege of recently spending a few hours with Ozark banjo/fiddle/guitar player Bill Conley and while the music was top notch it was great hearing him talk about his family and his memories of the late, great Bob Holt. When our time had finished I began wondering how I could get down to see him again. The wheels are turning, believe me.

One thing Bill shared is that as recently as a few decades ago, musicians would move around from house to house - learning & sharing tunes - for a week or two at a time. There was no internet, cable TV, or anything else other than music and dancing. This is how people made their fun and everybody was in on it. This wasn't a hundred years ago, and what we think are romanticized notions of the past may be closer to reality than some would believe. The past 20 years have changed how we interact in so many ways that I think we sell ourselves short in favor of convenience. I'm personally looking for ways to sever my dependence on gadgets in favor of humanity. And to all you "Boomers" out there, don't be surprised when a 25 year old comes calling with a fiddle (and iPhone) in hand. It's time to pay it forward!

-Sean

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/25/2012:  07:14:55

I'm going to the new Sunday afternoon jam I started here in town.

It's designed to be an open-jam parlor pick--any song from any sort of genre.

The last couple times, we had a bunch of young (high school) rock guitarists show up.

We played some of their stuff (me on banjo, Marta on hammered dulcimer, the other Mike on dobro).

A lot of it was originals. and they tried learning all our stuff.

To me, that's exactly what the tradition is now. The old culture is gone as always. We will _never_ have 1950s suburbia again nor will we have the Roaring 20s again or the original Minstrel music era, but the transmission of music and values from one generation to the next continues.

When I sit down and play with _anybody_, especially youngsters, I am transmitting something.

If I say "We don't play that rock and roll carp here," I transmit something a lot different than if I ask "How's your song go?"

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/25/2012:  08:35:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by minstrelmike

I'm going to the new Sunday afternoon jam I started here in town.

It's designed to be an open-jam parlor pick--any song from any sort of genre.

The last couple times, we had a bunch of young (high school) rock guitarists show up.

We played some of their stuff (me on banjo, Marta on hammered dulcimer, the other Mike on dobro).

A lot of it was originals. and they tried learning all our stuff.

To me, that's exactly what the tradition is now. The old culture is gone as always. We will _never_ have 1950s suburbia again nor will we have the Roaring 20s again or the original Minstrel music era, but the transmission of music and values from one generation to the next continues.

When I sit down and play with _anybody_, especially youngsters, I am transmitting something.

If I say "We don't play that rock and roll carp here," I transmit something a lot different than if I ask "How's your song go?"

---

This reflects the experience I have at the weekly Open Stage I run. And people who have never heard each others' style of music before sometimes make for the most interesting and lively jams.

I am wondering, however, if "rock and roll carp" are good to eat.

derwood400 - Posted - 03/25/2012:  09:41:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

---

Originally posted by minstrelmike

I'm going to the new Sunday afternoon jam I started here in town.

It's designed to be an open-jam parlor pick--any song from any sort of genre.

The last couple times, we had a bunch of young (high school) rock guitarists show up.

We played some of their stuff (me on banjo, Marta on hammered dulcimer, the other Mike on dobro).

A lot of it was originals. and they tried learning all our stuff.

To me, that's exactly what the tradition is now. The old culture is gone as always. We will _never_ have 1950s suburbia again nor will we have the Roaring 20s again or the original Minstrel music era, but the transmission of music and values from one generation to the next continues.

When I sit down and play with _anybody_, especially youngsters, I am transmitting something.

If I say "We don't play that rock and roll carp here," I transmit something a lot different than if I ask "How's your song go?"

---

This reflects the experience I have at the weekly Open Stage I run. And people who have never heard each others' style of music before sometimes make for the most interesting and lively jams.

I am wondering, however, if "rock and roll carp" are good to eat.

Marc, no. They taste like carp.

---

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/25/2012:  09:53:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by mojo_monk

 

I had the great privilege of recently spending a few hours with Ozark banjo/fiddle/guitar player Bill Conley and while the music was top notch it was great hearing him talk about his family and his memories of the late, great Bob Holt. When our time had finished I began wondering how I could get down to see him again. The wheels are turning, believe me.

________________________________________________________________________________________

I used to do a nearly 200 mile round trip on a Monday night to get to McClurg so I could hear and play with Bob Holt, Bill Conley, and the others.  You've got to go where the music leads you.  Those were some of the best days of my life, musically and otherwise.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mojo_monk

 

And to all you "Boomers" out there, don't be surprised when a 25 year old comes calling with a fiddle (and iPhone) in hand. It's time to pay it forward!

 

-Sean

---

 That's what I'm talking about Sean.  Guys like you are who are going to keep the generations connected and the local traditions alive.  You gotta get off the asphalt (both musically and mentally) to find the real stuff.

joshcole - Posted - 03/26/2012:  03:17:53

Great thread, and thoughtful posts.  There seems to be something essential about the idea that any folk culture is simultaneously about loss and renewal.  (With old time music, that happens to be what a lot of the songs are about too!). 

When we express sadness about what we remember from our parent's generation, or our grand-parent's generation, we're mourning the loss of that connection, and we worry about our ability to honor it in the best way possible.  For musicians playing this music, this has been true for generations, and we should probably remember that the distance from the young whippersnapper to the old-timer is not that great.   I imagine I'm not the first to suddenly be surprised to find myself older than I thought my parents were...

What's different about people, say, my age and older (I'm 50) is that we have lived through an extraordinary period that has allowed new forms of technology to take the place of older forms of cultural transmission.  The internet really is different than LPs, 45s, or wax cylinders, or sheet music, because it's so fast that it almost eliminates time and space.   In some sense, the idea of transmission itself has been changed because so much of the past seems to be present to us, right now, on youtube, on the hangout, on our mp3 players.  Who needs to worry about where the tradition comes from when it' all seems to be right there, simultaneously, one or two clicks away?

The answer to that question is obvious:  we worry about what has happened to the tradition because  the internet is not organized like a human mind, possessed of real memories, bearing the stamp of men and women who have lived full lives of hardship, joy and sorrow.

We won't turn the clock back, and we all will still use the internet for the wonderful snippets of the past that it makes available to us, but we still need to give the tradition its life by picking and choosing, developing our tastes, experimenting, striving for a personal style, and above all, by sitting with our friends in the living room or on the porch, or on the stoop, or in the parking lot, or on a bench in the park, and exchanging what we have learned.

strokestyle - Posted - 03/27/2012:  09:56:54

Thanks for some clarification RD. I understand better what you were asking.

"And to all you "Boomers" out there, don't be surprised when a 25 year old comes calling with a fiddle (and iPhone) in hand. It's time to pay it forward!"

I love this! There are so many players out there to find, you all see them at festivals and gathering, even many here on the BHO could easily be considered notable mentors! I'll repeat my sentiments that age  is not the most important criteria. You can be older than your mentor or vise versa. It has to do with what they have to transfer to you that will stay with you forever. Spend more than just musical time with them. I have found that these off music duty times are as special as learning a new tune. I have cooked, cleaned, done farm duty, laughed, cried, cared for, made proud, caused undo stress not putting chords were they belong, taxed the limitations of brain power for both the mentor and me and enjoyed all the good, bad, ugly, triumphant times alike. None of this can substituted, without personal contact. I feel so fortunate that the banjo found me and we took this journey. I know all of you do too!

'I'd recommend for any classic style player out there to find Clarke Buehling.

VaughnFrogg - Posted - 03/27/2012:  13:42:16

I think that there is a generation that yearns for older times. If you look at the music by Josh Ritter, The Avett Brothers, M Ward, Mark Erelli, you'll hear a timeless sound — and the stories they tell are wonderful.

I'm new to banjo. I wanted to use it for my music as background, and have now started playing out with it, and transposing songs into banjo. I hope that it can be my secondary instrument on stage. I know that my generation (I'm in my early 30s) is starting to admire letterpress, shop at local stores and abscond from technology. We grew up with it, and now realize that there's something much more meaningful to life than 0s and 1s.

And when I picked up the banjo, I took lessons from a pro — I still do — and am learning old songs, not just new ones.