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The Hat - Posted - 01/02/2012: 11:43:47
From a beginners point of view I can see the benefit of learning tab, a quick way to learn tunes for sure. However I much prefer to learn rhythm and timing first. I like the idea of learning in way that will allow to play what ever where ever if ya know what I mean. Tab is great but what happens if ya happen to be playing with people that ain't playing the tunes you have learned from tab ? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'm gonna be using tab to learn stuff as well but I kind like the idea of learning the reason why something sounds the way it does. ?
smellyoldfatguy - Posted - 01/02/2012: 11:59:27
IMHO I would use tab only as a last resort. Develop your ear first. Too many people become slaves to tab.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/02/2012: 12:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by smellyoldfatguy
Too many people become slaves to tab.
Oh no. Not this again.
steve davis - Posted - 01/02/2012: 12:22:00
Don't use tab just to copy one way of playing a tune.
Understand the construction of the tune in tab and adjust it to ear.
eagleisland - Posted - 01/02/2012: 12:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Hat
From a beginners point of view I can see the benefit of learning tab, a quick way to learn tunes for sure. However I much prefer to learn rhythm and timing first. I like the idea of learning in way that will allow to play what ever where ever if ya know what I mean. Tab is great but what happens if ya happen to be playing with people that ain't playing the tunes you have learned from tab ? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'm gonna be using tab to learn stuff as well but I kind like the idea of learning the reason why something sounds the way it does. ?
It really depends on what you're using the tab FOR. There are several different ways to think about it.
To discard the notion of tab is about as silly as discarding the notion of standard notation. Tab is a way of STORING information, nothing more, nothing less. The first violinist at the New York Philharmonic COULD learn all of his parts by ear, but that would require a LOT of time and impressive memory, particularly when one considers the number of musical pieces in the classical repertoire.
Now, the fact is that we use tab differently than the aforementioned violinist. The violinist is expected to play his/her part exactly as written; we play a less formal form of music that encourages improvisation (what do you call a concert violinist who improvises? Unemployed).
But that storage of information is every bit as important. If, in the learning stages, we USE that information properly, we're not just learning songs. We're learning basic right hand and left hand constructs that we can use in myriad ways down the road. For example, the opening bars of Cripple Creek contain a square-patterned (right hand on strings 3, 2, 5 and 1) motion, and the left hand instructions include a 2-3 slide on the third string with the remaining strings open. This combination gets used at various places in a LOT of songs.
Part of using tab effectively in the early stages lies in training ourselves to recognize these right and left hand moves, which we can then utilize effectively later on. With diligent practice, a dedicated student of the instrument should be able to figure out an awful lot of things by ear a year or two down the road, simply because the hand motions they learned earlier reveal themselves to be useful in other musical contexts.
Tab is also handy for more advanced players who are trying to figure out subtleties in a given player's work. There was ONE measure in Ron Stewart's opening break for "Litttle Old Log Cabin in the Lane" that I just couldn't work out for love nor money by listening - I THOUGHT I had it figured out (turns out I was right) but it wasn't until I saw the tab that I realized my guess was confirmed. Consider, also, that there are only FOUR NOTES on the neck of a standard-tuned banjo that can't be obtained in at least two locations on the neck; for more advanced players, tab can be handy in figuring out the most efficient way to play something.
Tab is like fire and government: a wonderful servant, a terrible master.
RB3WREATH - Posted - 01/02/2012: 13:10:35
Tab is evil you need to learn how to play the banjo
Joe
dmiller - Posted - 01/02/2012: 13:28:46
Skip (eagleisland) nailed it. 
The KIDD - Posted - 01/02/2012: 13:43:39
Yeah , many of us have seen this debate happen over and over since 04. And even at this end of this one, from what your gonna "read",your still gonna be left with what your gonna feel is best for YOU..Best way for you to decide what your gonna want to sound like is to listen to the sound files and videos of both camps. Listen to renditons and their variations of the same tunes and also the variety of styles they cover that may interest you. Much better way of making an informed decision. If I just tell you YES TAB , NO TAB , and why , its still gonna be just an opinion. My teaching page page tells you which camp Im in.
KIDD
KE - Posted - 01/02/2012: 14:36:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Hat
From a beginners point of view I can see the benefit of learning tab, a quick way to learn tunes for sure. However I much prefer to learn rhythm and timing first. I like the idea of learning in way that will allow to play what ever where ever if ya know what I mean. Tab is great but what happens if ya happen to be playing with people that ain't playing the tunes you have learned from tab ? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'm gonna be using tab to learn stuff as well but I kind like the idea of learning the reason why something sounds the way it does. ?
Sounds like you've made up your mind! Go for it.
Fathand - Posted - 01/02/2012: 14:55:46
Tab is a great tool to explain how things can be done, i.e, technically, where you can put your fingers and have a song or lick come out. It is sometimes a substitute for a teacher that would show you where you can put your finger when a teacher is not available.
If you want to develop your rhythm, play a bunch of songs where you just strum or vamp chords and sing along. Later you can try adding melody notes between the strums and you are on your way to building your own arrangments. For myself, I started with frailing simple songs which gave me the technique of melody in between strums and helped me to understand how songs go together. I love Scruggs style but I do not think the song structure is as obvious to beginners learning it, so a lot of them wind up relying only on tab and rote performances.
kmwaters - Posted - 01/02/2012: 15:00:33
Yeah, Eagleisland had some real wisdom in his post, but tabs for me not only help me learn a new song, but they also shed light on some subtleties to rolls that you don't normally see in a la carte printed roll exercises put out for beginners or intermediate players. While I resist becoming a tab slave, I really like going to tabs to see how the greats play their songs. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Maybe you have to blow off tabs to be a purist, but I don't really care if I am not a purist. I am not that advanced that I can simply listen to a song and then pick up my banjo and start playing what I just heard. Would love to get there some day, but that day is not tomorrow or next week.
I have invested in just a few major tab publications - Earl's book and J.D. Crowe's Bluegrass Album all six volumes in one book. This is good stuff. There are also some good tabs in Masters of the 5 String book from the who's who. Then of course the free tabs from the hangout, Jack Baker at frettedinstrumentsnyc.com (most generous contribution to put all these tabs out for the public to enjoy and not asking a dime for any of them!), and others. Jack is an accomplished musician, teacher, and university faculty member. It is people like him who make the hangout what it is - a great resource for the banjo lover aspiring to improve. Low cost or no cost is great, but some of the resources for a fee are well worth the money. My other investments are Ross Nickerson's encyclopedia, Janet Davis' Splitting the Licks, and Jack Hatfield's brand new 200 plus page book on backup accompanied by cd's. Good luck to all in the pursuit of excellence.
rickshunter1 - Posted - 01/02/2012: 15:05:42
Dont get started with tab i did and it held me back for over a year and it not saying its bad it can help you if you get lost learning a song but i got dependit on it to where i couldnt play with out the tab in front of me sounded mechanical not hearing the tune in my head
steve davis - Posted - 01/02/2012: 15:13:36
Don't waste too much time worrying about it,imo.
Get your inspiration and ideas however you can...live,recorded or written,it all goes to the same place.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/02/2012: 16:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by rickshunter1
Dont get started with tab i did and it held me back for over a year ... i got dependit on it to where i couldnt play with out the tab in front of me sounded mechanical not hearing the tune in my head
That's not the tab's fault.
Corwyn - Posted - 01/02/2012: 16:19:19
Tab is just like any other printed word. There are plenty of people who will tell you that the printing press ruined the oral story telling tradition. Perhaps it did, but what we got in return is immense.
Gymbal31 - Posted - 01/02/2012: 16:33:23
BanjoFlyboy - Posted - 01/02/2012: 16:47:29
I use tab to get kickstarted on learning a song quickly. I then throw the tab in the trash, and start days of practice and listening to Earl or whomever made the song popular. Improvisation occurs when I forget exactly what the tab told me to do. I support whatever works.
jbanjoist - Posted - 01/02/2012: 17:29:04
Tab is a tool, especially for beginners. How many used the Scruggs book along with it's record? There was no record with mine so I listened to the tunes Earl recorded with Lester like Blue Ridge Mt. Home and Your Love is like a Flower to get me going, to help me hear the words being played or to me "sung" on the banjo by Earl.
Many a banjoist has slowed down the Foggy Mt. Banjo album and used the tab in Earl's book to learn those timeless songs.
Hearing them gives you all those things you are looking for. Tab gives you a shortcut to the technical side of "how to play" them.
Good look in your quest no matter how you choose to enter into it.
Gymbal31 - Posted - 01/02/2012: 17:38:58
carlb - Posted - 01/02/2012: 20:12:23
I'll 2nd that!
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by smellyoldfatguy
Too many people become slaves to tab.
Oh no. Not this again.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/03/2012: 03:14:59
The only people who become slaves to tab are the ones who are to unmotivated to do more than just learn the tab. Tab is a storage medium. It is also a good way to chart out variations you want to try and keep them for later, it is a Great way to store a bare tune to you can build upon it later.
Besides, until they have sharpened their ear (either through ear training or by knowing a lot of material) most people can't effectively memorize tunes directly from recordings. Is it really any better to have a teacher play a phrase over and over until you have it sorted out? I spent some entire half hour long lessons failing to memorize flamenco falsetas. I left that teacher and went with the guy who tabbed out everything we covered in the lessons - and the learning curve flattened out to something managable.
I highly recommend ear training - at least "Interval Training". It is not cheap because so far as I know there is no way to do it without a teacher. It is well worth the money spent, but most people don't want to spend the time away from the banjo.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 01/03/2012 03:19:56
John Allison - Posted - 01/03/2012: 06:33:12
Even though there seems to be a growing tendency to get away from tab, it can be a useful tool in the learning process just as sheet music is a useful tool to the pianist. But it is just that, a tool, and not an end all. Learning by ear seems to be the current method of learning being stressed by many teachers throughout the US (see Murphy Methods for one). However, it is a tool and a tool that should be learned: however, it should be thought of as a guide and not an end all. For example, if I want to learn a song and am not too sure of how it goes, I will generally find a tab for that song. I do not consider it gospel and will alter it to suit my method of playing, my fingering abilities and what sounds good to me. After all, wouldn't it be a boring world if we all played the same song the same way time after time. So, I teach my students that it is a guide, and a good one at that, but something that is used only when necessary. The process of learning that I support involves, pick the song you want to learn, learn the song and sing it or hum it, then find the right notes that represent the melody, and then the chords that fit, and then put it all together.
It is my firm belief that tablature restricts the ability to learn by ear. To support this statement, I offer the following: the piano player who studies music for years can probably play with any philharmonic orchestra there is; however, he will not be the piano player who can sit at the piano bar and play any requested song. Likewise, the banjo player who learns from and strictly adheres to tab will restrict his ability to improvise.
steve davis - Posted - 01/03/2012: 06:45:50
I've learned certain difficult tunes like Dixie Hoedown and Huckleberry Hornpipe exactly as written from tabs.
The DH tab was written for me by Bela Fleck in the late 70s and the HH tab was from Alan Munde's column in Frets magazine.
I knew the tabs were right and made sure I got real comfortable with playing them exactly as written.
This helped me to quickly learn the different parts and where they belonged.
Once I could play them as written,I changed them to suit my approach.
What's wrong with that?
Tab is a great time saver for me when it comes to tough tunes...especially 3 and 4 part fiddletunes.
95% of what I play is totally by ear,though.
Edited by - steve davis on 01/03/2012 06:47:22
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/03/2012: 14:51:07
I know many Murphy Method learners (ear method supposedly) who cannot improvise nor can they learn a song by ear at a jam.
They can only learn by someone showing them specific things. It's essentially memorization of fingerings. Doing that with tab puts you in the same spot.
OTOH, I know a bunch of jazz musicians who can learn a song off of sheet and then improvise the next time thru.
I can do that with tablature.
Tools are not to blame for the incorrect or limited use of them.
If you want to improvise, then do so however you learn.
But don't think it will automatically happen thru memorization via different methods than the one you're already using.
Memorizing a speech is not the same think as speaking extemporaneously.
It doesn't matter whether you memorized the speech from reading a transcript or from listening to a vocal recording.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/03/2012: 15:04:39
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
Tools are not to blame for the incorrect or limited use of them.
The above statement is required reading for tabcritics.
To follow your point about learning to improvise, tab and improvisation are not mutually exclusive.
For me, tab has always been a valuable shortcut to licks, phrases, pieces of other players' stuff and all those things that we store up in order to improvise. That's what all the "hot licks" books are all about. For that matter, getting pieces of things to use -- as opposed to whole songs -- is to me the most valuable use of tab books and downloads. Yes, I can figure out things by ear. And I'll do it that way if I have to -- recording and slowing down and searching for what I think is the fingering. But if tab is available, you can bet I'll look at it.
steve davis - Posted - 01/03/2012: 15:20:30
Tab made it possible for me to play bluegrass banjo.
There were no bluegrass musicians in Port Clyde when I was growing up.
Nobody knew anything about playing the Scruggs style...there were 2 bluegrass records in Port Clyde in those days.
A F&S 45 with FMB on one side and a Jim And Jessie record with Allen Shelton playing WWF in the key of F.
Tab showed me how to play some rolls and how tunes went that I had never heard.
I never would have learned to play right without tab.
rickshunter1 - Posted - 01/03/2012: 19:51:20
If you start with tab and DEPEND on it you will never really hear the tune you will be playing it from a piece of paper and NO its not the tabs fault at all its yours or mine for using it as the only way to learn.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 06:37:12
quote:
Originally posted by rickshunter1
If you start with tab and DEPEND on it you will never really hear the tune you will be playing it from a piece of paper
This can only be the case if you are using tab to learn a tune you have never heard before.
If you are learning from a tab written in TablEdit, then the software will play the tune for you and you can hear it as much as you need. Same thing if you are learning a tab that is identified as being based on a specific recorded version. You can obtain that record and play it as often as it takes for you to get the tune in your head.
Truth be told, I disagree with your premise. I've learned off of plenty of tabs for tunes or licks that I didn't know for sure how they were supposed to sound. This happens all the time with the various licks books I mentioned previously.
I will agree that it is extremely bad approach to practice to focus so much on tab that you don't listen to what you're playing or don't seek out the tune.
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 06:48:16
You also have to take the banjo out in the real world and play with people.
Just leave the tab home and see what happens.
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 06:55:14
Hey Ken,
Since you seem to be lookin for a fight by hammering Rick , how bout pickin on some body your own size. I see you like Dillard and Munde'. How bout we meet in the chatroom SUN after Johns Workshop and you can SHOW me with your tune variations from the Banjo Kidd and the Sandwich,we'll compare notes on Dixie Breakdown while we're at it. That way, you can SHOW what TAB has done for you. So seem to be all too eager to talk the talk .Lets see if you'll walk the walk..Man you been playin since 72, you should jump at this chance to really make your point.
So Ill see ya there?
KIDD
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 07:14:01
Why would someone learning a piece from tab not have the ability to hear a tune?
What's the big deal about hearing a tune?
I use either way of learning a tune and they both work out just fine.
Edited by - steve davis on 01/04/2012 07:15:14
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 07:21:57
Been a teacher for 18 yrs.. Ive seen the suffering first hand. Have my reasons that only the banjo can answer. Words are just opinions, the banjo will tell the truth. Meet us there SUN and we'll see what your banjo has to say about it.
Cool?
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 07:30:06
Are you some kind of banjo judge?
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 07:40:56
You kill me Steve..We ALL KNOW you WILL get the last word in this thread .. Been that way for 7-8 yrs. Thats why words dont wrk in proving a point . Neither party will see the others point. You wanna beat this to death with words. Id rather make my point wih a banjo.Man, Ive got too many sound files to make and playing projects on here to continue debate with words that we've been having for yrs to no avail...YOU talk your talk , ILL walk my talk ...
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 07:42:15
When I'm playing my banjo I don't walk or talk...I just play my banjo.
joemac - Posted - 01/04/2012: 08:22:26
Steve, you have some valid points but as you say yourself, Quote : What's the big deal about hearing a tune? well that statement is what this whole thing is about. Learning from tab is one thing, but you are still left without the ability to put variations into the piece, you still havent picked up that valuable skill of understanding and the joy of being able to place your mark on the tune and develop your own style , feel and approach towards it. its almost like flying a plane with the manual on your knee all the time and it is resticting. People are posting on here just to try and let us all know that the true joy of musicianship is that discovery that you make yourself, not one that you find written in someone elses book, i aint getting at you man, i dont know you, im just trying to get you to see the other side.......Joe
Edited by - joemac on 01/04/2012 08:29:17
KE - Posted - 01/04/2012: 08:24:11
You're kidding, right? Calling people out on a banjo forum? Sheesh . . . it's not like anybody's insulting your mother or your chili.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 08:33:26
quote:
Originally posted by The KIDD
Since you seem to be lookin for a fight by hammering Rick , how bout pickin on some body your own size.
I see you like Dillard and Munde'. How bout we meet in the chatroom SUN after Johns Workshop and you can SHOW me with your tune variations from the Banjo Kidd and the Sandwich,we'll compare notes on Dixie Breakdown while we're at it. That way, you can SHOW what TAB has done for you. So seem to be all too eager to talk the talk .Lets see if you'll walk the walk..Man you been playin since 72, you should jump at this chance to really make your point.
So Ill see ya there?
No, I'm not looking for a fight and no, you won't see me in the chat room Sunday.
I don't know why you think I'm looking for a fight. And I'm certainly not hammering Rick. I'm just supporting tab. I think most criticisms of tab are off-base.
If someone thinks tab is so bad and so evil and so detrimental to anyone's progress on banjo, why don't they ever write to Eric and ask him to shut down the tab archive to protect us all from the scourge of tab?
But I digress.
Back to your message. I don't think I play much from Banjo Kid or Banjo Sandwich, though I have the tab books. And after all these years I have a hard time remembering exactly what songs I learned from tab -- though most of my melodic licks trace their origins to Tony Trischka's books and to a bunch of tab given to me by Ray Hesson when I knew him back in the early 70s. Both my teachers the spring and summer of 72 used tab, so to some extent, everything I ever learned goes back to tab in some way.
As to asking me prove I can walk the walk, that sounds like a challenge from someone looking to pick a fight. But I've already done that by posting examples of my playing in the media archive. Here are a few selections from what I've posted.
My band's rendition of Alan Munde's "Uncle Clooney" was recorded at a practice in April 1980. (I had been playing for 8 years at that point) This is one I learned from the tab when it was published in Banjo Newsletter. I altered the second solo somewhat because I just couldn't play it the way Alan Munde did.
"With Care from Someone" - the Dillard and Clark song -- was recorded live at the Birchmere in May 1980. We were the featured band (two sets) at an open mic. I learned this by ear from the record. I'm pretty sure my version varies from the original. Anyway, this is an example of what I can do on stage in front of people I don't know.
"Keep On Pushin'" (from the same 1980 practice session as "Uncle Clooney") is based on the Country Gazette version. Learned this by ear. Inspired by Munde, but not a note-for-note copy.
"Dixie Breakdown" as I played it in this 1985 (?) recording was based on versions recorded by Doug Dillard and Kenny Wertz (who played banjo for Country Gazette before Alan Munde). The Wertz version is on the Flying Burrito Bros "Last of the Red Hot Burritos" album -- a live recording with a short Country Gazette bluegrass segment.
Here's a recent use of tab. The bluegrass band I now play with does "Gone, Gone, Gone." I've been improving solos that I haven't been happy with. So just this past week I used tab from the archive here to quickly get the gist of what was described as an Alan Munde solo. One or two notes didn't sound right to me, and I preferred my own ending phrase, so I came up with my own version. But the tab saved me a lot of time in getting a couple of chromatic phrases that really define the solo. Having the tab allowed me to spend more time working on my phrasing, timing, attack and tone instead of searching for the notes. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to pull it off at practice next week.
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 08:55:00
Well ,Rick is an upcomin Novice who puts himself out there pretty much on a weekly basis for critque and supports MANY MANY MANY , ole did I say MANY? "players" on here. He merely stated his case from personal exp. Hate to see some one discourage him in a Lefthanded way. Well, Im workin on projects on here that have to get done , so I dont have any recording time to day to match your tunes, so Ill match your 4 with 4 of mine. Ill record Dixie BD when Im done mixing this week..Heres tunes I "created" breaks for
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 08:55:07
More walking the walk. This time on Prince Georges County (Maryland) public access cable TV in December 1985. First 1:40 is talk, so you can skip past that. I miss the II - V run in the intro/solo. This, combined with my general nervousness that day, leads me to hold back on my subsequent break and not try anything up the neck or chromatic for fear of missing it again.
Playing in front of others what I can play in practice has always been my biggest challenge.
Nothin' Hokey - Dancing with the Angels - PG County Public Access Cable TV - Dec 85
dickinnorwich - Posted - 01/04/2012: 09:12:51
Picking up on Skip's (Eagleisland) post, I have a (funny) story.
I know a woman who plays violin for the San Francisco Philharmonic Orchestra. We get together once a year, in the summer. Each summer, I ask her to jam with us and each summer she turns up her nose at my request. Come to find out that her forte, in addition to being a really fine violinist, is that she is a widely recognized expert at reading music. But the flip side is she doesn't improvise and can't play, or won't try to play, a tune she doesn't know or that isn't written down in standard music notation!
Now, if you extrapolate from this, if the only tunes you ever play at a jam are written in tablature and you are as skilled as this woman is where you can read tablature and play at warp speed, no problem.
But if you can't meet either of these two conditions, dependence on tablature has its distinct downside.
I can tell you from jam experience that novice players, some of whom have been playing for 8 years or more, who won't learn a tune and continue to try and play tunes written in tablature, note for note
the way somebody else played them, will never develop as players. While this in no way detracts from the storage function that Skip identifies, it does get to the use of it in real time conditions.
KE - Posted - 01/04/2012: 09:13:49
Sometimes it's hard to decide if bluegrass is collaborative music or a competitive sport. Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter.
It's just mystifying that a person shouldn't be encouraged to learn in any way that gives them pleasure or adds to their abilities. If some do that with tab, great. If some don't, great. If someone cannot read music notation but learns by ear, great. If someone is versatile enough to do it all, greater still.
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 09:19:16
Learning from tab has nothing to do with whether you can hear or play by ear.
They are two different disciplines and both easily used in the playing of the banjo.
Hearing good can help understanding of tabs.
Anyone that stays at home alone,just playing from tabs will have the same difficulties playing with others that anyone might have from isolation.Timing and rebounding from mistakes takes practice.
Playing along with others will give you new ideas of how to apply the banjo while interacting with other musicians.
Playing with others is a whole new skill that must also be practiced.
Edited by - steve davis on 01/04/2012 09:25:11
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 09:24:20
I don't recall challenging you, John. I've heard your postings. I know you can play.
I understand that Rick stated his case, based on his novice experience. And I think I disagreed with his opinion in an appropriate manner -- totally free of personal attack, challenge or confrontation -- based on my 40+ years experience with tab (starting with banjo tab in 1972 and Happy Traum's guitar tab books for fingerpicking styles and James Taylor songs a year before that).
In my four decades of using and sharing tab, I have never personally experienced any of the detrimental effects that some people want to warn us about.
As to creating breaks, I do plenty of that, too. Don't most of us? Another example from my past. I never heard anyone else play this song bluegrass style before my band did it, so I had no choice but to create my own break. (Which I mess up here by hitting the same wrong note twice; oh, well).
In the tab library, I've posted two tabs of solos I wrote myself last year for some fiddle tunes that my Celtic band plays. I've discussed this in other places. Short version is our band plays once a month and tries to practice once a week. We have very little time to add material each month. If a tune our fiddler wants to add doesn't exist in tab in the Trischka or Hanway books or online, then I have to write my own arrangement, working from recordings and sheet music.
Here's a link to the two tunes I've posted to the library. Examples of what I can work out on my won. Of course, that's not me playing!
My Celtic Tabs
goldtopia - Posted - 01/04/2012: 09:26:39
I learnt music on the piano and don't like tab a all.
Bill.O
Edited by - goldtopia on 01/04/2012 09:27:41
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 10:10:14
Ive played Walk Away Rene'. (female vocal in B)My impov is much more melodic Id say but your fwd bwd roll motif fits good as well. Two more post Exps?..Ok., Ill follow up with some 70s rock and and some OT fiddletunes .. Like to hear your tabbed versions for these?...Guess we're gonna have to disagree about Rick. This can go on and on with words but the heart and soul of the matter is what we're doing right now with the posting of our playin. Even though yours is 25 yrs old, I respect you defending your position this way. Heres 2 more that were created on the fly to which Ive never heard ANY banjo breaks for. Cant put this stuff in a box.. Never played the same way twice..Its all about freedom and personal expression !!!
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/04/2012: 10:27:53
This tab 'war' will never end or be settled, I don't think. The points made on both sides have validity. Folks get pretty passionate about this stuff, especially those of us who teach. But ultimately, the individual player decides what works best for them. I have seen 'tab junkies', as I'm sure many of you more experienced players have, as we all know what that term means. But you are only a 'junkie' if you sense that there's something more to playing these songs and style of banjo, than just reading notes of the page. If someone is happy just reading the notes and there's nothing 'missing' in their playing, from their won viewpoint, then there's nothing to argue.
Speaking for myself, I didn't learn to read tab until I had been playing about 8 or 9 years. I tried, but it didnt make sense. Even after I became a good tab reader, and could reproduce things on the banjo from it, I found that there was still some missing elements that I couldn't get from a tab. Then, I would seek out played versions of the song, as soon as i could. About 95% of the time, after hearing the tune being played well, I found what the missing elements were in the tabs. Maybe I am unique in needing to actually hear the tune being played, even after 'conquering' the tab of it. I don't think that I'm unique in this regard. For teaching, I prefer to not use tab at all. My goal is to get beginners to develop some ear skills, some basic timing understanding and to be able to hear and find the simple 'sketch' of the melody or phrases we are studying. If I try to teach them to watch me and listen, and try to watch the fingerboard, pay attention to the right hand mechanics, listen to what the music is doing, listen to me, and then watch the tab and try to comprehend it too, in real time...well, you get the picture,haha. My goal is to get them to internalize some essential 'feel' and rhythm elements that no tab can teach you. I want them to go to as soon as they can, and just get into the groove and play some simple rhythmic things and feel and listen to the music. Tab, as good a tool as it is for some things, will never replace the need for players to listen and feel the music. So for me, tabs are best for someone who has passed the beginner stage and has developed a good, solid foundation for simple ear and rhythm. Once they have that, they can use the tab as a tool to help 'see' where certain notes and positions are.
In the end, everyone has to do some self-analysis about this stuff. If you look hard and are happy with how and why you use tab, and you are satisfied with your progress and goal reaching, then theres no need to debate tab or worry about it. On the other hand, if you have been a religious tab only user and you have goals for your playing that aren't being met, and your playing isnt being transformed as you hoped, then its time to re-evaluate how you are using tab. Are you expecting too much from the tab, and not trusting your potential to hear and feel music? To me, tab is similar as a tool, as in using a capo. If you are happy capoing at the 10th fret to play in "F", then be happy and just pick. But if you decide that there's something missing in your knowledge of how to play in "F" and you want to know it, the capo can't teach it to you. A capo is just a tool-it cant' do the thinking and feeling for you, nor can tab. This is all my opinion and experiences of course, but it is based on seeing great players in my life, who live it and breath it. Many of them use tabs or have at some point, but it wasn't the focus of the process and they certainly didn't get to be great from just playing from tabs.
John Allison - Posted - 01/04/2012: 10:37:20
Well stated John. That is, at least in part, what I was trying to say in my previous post. Thanks.
Edited by - John Allison on 01/04/2012 10:38:40
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/04/2012: 10:47:18
So if I post improv recordings of jazz artists who learned songs from sheet, would that "prove" sheet (piano tab) is good?
Some folks have no idea what logic and proof means.
In His first few years of learning:
Earl didn 't learn from tab.
He also didn't learn from the Murphy Method.
He also didn't copy breaks off of records.
Does that mean those methods are garbage?
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