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Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 11:15:56
John:
It was way beyond my ability at the time (and maybe still) to compose a fully melodic break for Walk Away Renee. And the bluegrassy version I came up with fit what we were doing. This was our usual concert-ender (for one-set shows).
What I did independently discover in working this out is the advice I saw many years later from some pro (forget who) which is to find the melody on the second string. As you work your way up and down the neck, the changing intervals between melody notes and the open fifth and first strings create interesting sounds.
I guess I'm supposed to be happy that you respect my defending my position by posting links in this discussion to examples I had already posted on the Hangout -- and that anyone could easily find -- demonstrating that I can in fact play and can write tab. I find myself unable to return the respect for being so challenged in the first place.
And we can disagree about my responses to Rick, but I've re-read my two postings that quoted him and what I see as irrefutable fact is that in both cases I directed my comments to what he said, not to who he is. My second post even ended by agreeing with him in part: that it's bad to practice in a way that keeps you from hearing the tune. But I did not in any way in either message address Rick's playing experience, challenge him to prove anything or suggest that he and I meet somewhere else to settle whatever it was we were discussing.
Edited by - Old Hickory on 01/04/2012 11:19:00
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 11:59:24
You felt the need to post so you did.. It wasnt a contest..Merely a request to show how TAB has influenced your playing I What better way than PLAYING A BANJO.
I mean , asking a person to play banjo is now offensive? (hope this mentality doesnt leak over into festivals...) . We do it everyday over in Sound Off... SHEEESH! You wouldnt have posted if you didnt feel the need to do so... Just asked you to defend your postion and you did...You could have said buzz off, I dont need to do becuase I feel my aurgument is good enough.Well. your not the first to dislike my playing or or not have respect for me as a player. As you can see, many do and its a mutual respect. Its cool though. You have plenty of supporters here chiming in so Ill let you guys continue.
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
So if I post improv recordings of jazz artists who learned songs from sheet, would that "prove" sheet (piano tab) is good?
Some folks have no idea what logic and proof means.
In His first few years of learning:
Earl didn 't learn from tab.
He also didn't learn from the Murphy Method.
He also didn't copy breaks off of records.
Does that mean those methods are garbage?
No, what it means is you are emphasizing exactly what some of us are saying. Because Earl didnt have those things, he had to depend on his ear, playing with others and putting it all together with a sense of rhythm. If tab had existed, I'm sure Earl would have used it or at least tried to, but his ability to play some elements of music weren't based only on the tab. There are simply some aspects of playing you cannot get from just the tab. Again, thats just my experiences as a player and teacher. I think the crux of the debate is how much/when to begin using tab, and when to try and play w/o using it as your only/first option. Again, thats only relevant if the player senses something's missing on the path they are on. If they are happy, then there's nothing to worry about or debate.
Its amazing how such a simple tool can cause such heated debates. It seems like common sense to me. 
Edited by - Banjophobic on 01/04/2012 12:26:21
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:14:29
quote:
Originally posted by The KIDD
I mean , asking a person to play banjo is now offensive?
No. Just the way it was asked: "how bout pickin on some body your own size." "How bout we meet in the chatroom SUN after Johns Workshop ... That way, you can SHOW what TAB has done for you" "seem to be all too eager to talk the talk. Lets see if you'll walk the walk.. Man you been playin since 72, you should jump at this chance to really make your point."
Did I misread tone and intent in there?
stringbreaker - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:18:15
quote:
Originally posted by steve davis
Are you some kind of banjo judge?
he thinks so. hickory you didnt misread.
Edited by - stringbreaker on 01/04/2012 12:19:03
The KIDD - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:21:12
I know what your tryin to do.. Wont work this time... Any further comments from me concerning this thread will be made on FB , YOUTUBE, face to face in the chat room or in person.. Post have a way of disappearing...Rick and I have been in contact and its cool with him..Im OUT!!!
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by The KIDD
I know what your tryin to do.. Wont work this time.
I have no idea what you think I'm trying to do or what it is that won't work.
I know that all I'm trying to do is show you that you posted comments to which I took offense because they seemed to me to be an uncalled-for "put up or shut up" challenge directed at me personally. I did not see your comments as being topic-focused responses to any specific opinion I had posted about the value of tablature.
I'm just trying to make you aware of that. I'm not even asking you to acknowledge it.
Of course, I am happy to be shown if I have misread your comments. But I'm not asking or challenging you to do that, either.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 12:33:11
quote:
Originally posted by The KIDD
I know what your tryin to do.. Wont work this time.
I have no idea what you think I'm trying to do or what it is that won't work.
I know that all I'm trying to do is show you that you posted comments to which I took offense because they seemed to me to be an uncalled-for "put up or shut up" challenge directed at me personally. I did not see your comments as being topic-focused responses to any specific opinion I had posted about the value of tablature.
I'm just trying to make you aware of that. I'm not even asking you to acknowledge it.
Of course, I am happy to be shown if I have misread your comments. But I'm not asking or challenging you to do that, either.
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:38:18
I played by ear without tab for 15 years.
I enjoy the combination...the options are numerous and a good ear helps sight reading tabs much easier.
Familiarity with musical notation helps a lot in tab reading,too.
Edited by - steve davis on 01/04/2012 13:40:53
Dexter - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:43:13
I hate to break up a good fight but I have what may be a really dumb question....but even if it is I don't know the answer. I am learning clawhammer (have played guitar for years and pretty good at hearing tune and learning it). However, with so many different tunings in clawhammer how do I determine appropriate tuning for song I hear. Thanks
Edited by - Dexter on 01/04/2012 13:44:16
steve davis - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:47:16
You might get a clearer answer on the clawhammer topic as there isn't much retuning done on the bluegrass banjo.
Dexter - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:48:11
quote:Thanks, I'll shoot my question over there.
Originally posted by steve davis
You might get a clearer answer on the clawhammer topic as there isn't much retuning done on the bluegrass banjo.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:50:31
That's not a dumb question, Dexter.
But a better place to ask it is probably in the Playing Advice: Clawhammer and Old-Time forum:
banjohangout.org/forum/forum.a...RUM_ID=11
You should start a new discussion with a topic name such as "Figuring out best tuning for a tune" - or something like that. I bet you'll get plenty of good response.
-Ken
Dexter - Posted - 01/04/2012: 13:53:45
quote:Thanks Old Hickory....I just shot the question over there.
Originally posted by Old Hickory
That's not a dumb question, Dexter.
But a better place to ask it is probably in the Playing Advice: Clawhammer and Old-Time forum:
banjohangout.org/forum/forum.a...RUM_ID=11
You should start a new discussion with a topic name such as "Figuring out best tuning for a tune" - or something like that. I bet you'll get plenty of good response.
-Ken
Yard Onion - Posted - 01/04/2012: 15:51:57
I can't believe I just read through all this mess. Everybodys learning style is different--just try out tab or learning by ear or both, etc and see what happens. It might be right for you....it might not. This can of worms should stay closed.
Cryo - Posted - 01/05/2012: 03:06:51
Tabs are useful when it comes to figuring out where on the fretboard you should be. Reading music alone does not always help. I use tabs to remind myself what position I should be when I a writing a piece down. Especially useful for some of my instruments. With my banjo, for pieces that I am learning, it is useful to remind of the 5th string or to position a harmonic and other notes. Useful to share playing styles.
millennium3 - Posted - 01/05/2012: 04:22:14
For some this thread may be old hat or something to argue over. But for me it is an excellent topic I struggle with constantly. So, I am loving and heeding many of the responses.
Thanks,
Crutch
steve davis - Posted - 01/05/2012: 04:28:05
Basically it doesn't matter how you learn as long as you stay interested and pick it up every day.
Take advice with a grain of salt and don't let someone tell you how you are supposed to learn or play.
Dexter - Posted - 01/05/2012: 11:16:17
I attended the American Banjo Camp last year and for a new player it was an awesome experience. Funny story about advice and perspective.......I took most of my classes from Ken Perlman and Bob Carlin (two of my favorite banjo players....for different reasons). One class that Ken teaches is called banjo ergonomics where he teaches many things including the "proper" way to hold a banjo. So, I left his class thinking wow!....I now know how to hold a banjo! My next class was with Bob Carlin where the first thing he taught us was.....you guessed it.....how to hold a banjo......well, to my surprise it was much different than what I had just been taught by Ken. So, I figured, one of these guys must be wrong.....right? I then attended their evening concerts and was amazed at how well both of them played.....but how could this be?......At least one of them holds the banjo wrong! Well, during the week I noticed how much talent surrounded me and how many different styles, perspectives and opinions also surrounded me. And then it dawned on me that this is what I like about banjos and banjo people....there is no absolute one right or wrong way to play, learn or enjoy this great instrument.....And, by the way....I made my own decision on how to hold a banjo.....I don't know if it is the right way or the wrong way.....but it works for me. Regards, Rick
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/05/2012: 16:36:57
I have taught a number of people who started with the various No Tab and no written music stuff. They tended to come to me after 6 months to a year of making little or no progress on the instrument. If you try to teach banjo by ear without first teaching ear training, I personally think you are a either a fool or a fraud.
I've seen guys end up with solid reputations as complete bulls*** artists because they had their own special way to teach without music, or tab or whatever. It always turned out to be some rube goldberg like kludge or a simple matter of playing the same three notes over and over until the student either got it or dropped out. I acquired the drop outs, and those guys dropped out of teaching.
I took about 4 lessons from a famous Flamenco Guitarist in NYC. It cost me a lot to ride the bus 150 miles each way for lessons , and in an hour I couldn't memorize more than 8-16 measures of music - and frequently couldn't hold even that in my memory over the 4 hour trip home. The teacher had several albums out, complete with singers and dancers. He insisted (actually inthithed - he was Sthpanish) that one couldn't learn anything from tab so he wouldn't even let me write out the stuff. That wasn't the way he learned in Spain - where his father taught him to play.
One day I arrived in NY early and decided to see what was happening in the Village, so I walked south and found an American guy playing an afternoon set at the Cafe Flamenco (a long gone baskethouse that I eventually played a few times). I was the whole audience so he even took requests. We struck up a conversation and I ended up calling my teacher and cancelling my lessons altogether. I took lessons from this guy (at the rate of one a month) for almost a year, and learned the essentials of flamenco guitar. He tabbed everything - and yes I had to prove I could play the stuff he gave me last lesson ---- without reference to the tab - - - before going on to new material. We covered the material, and he wrote it all down while I practiced. A 2-3 hour lesson with him was still cheaper than a one hour lesson with "the Star" and he didn't think I was genetically incapable of playing flamenco.
erikforgod - Posted - 01/05/2012: 17:26:22
proof is in the pudding...I hate those old purist sticklers that preach about the "nobility" of reading the written staff like its some kind of right of passage...heck I dont care how one learns the music as long as they learn it. Actually I think in many ways written music has many inherent weaknesses...tab is far simpler and more easier and efficient in my opinion.
Edited by - erikforgod on 01/05/2012 17:27:03
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/05/2012: 21:42:55
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
I have taught a number of people who started with the various No Tab and no written music stuff. They tended to come to me after 6 months to a year of making little or no progress on the instrument. If you try to teach banjo by ear without first teaching ear training, I personally think you are a either a fool or a fraud.
I've seen guys end up with solid reputations as complete bulls*** artists because they had their own special way to teach without music, or tab or whatever. It always turned out to be some rube goldberg like kludge or a simple matter of playing the same three notes over and over until the student either got it or dropped out.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Man, this tab debate is getting uglier by the post. Being someone from western NC, who learned to play by learning from great players who didn't or could not read tab, Im really disheartened to hear them called 'fools' and 'frauds'. There were many players I've know personally and from their students, who did not use tab or sheet music. The lessons were based on listening, asking questions, playing along, and watching. If they were smart enough,the student would record the lessons for later reference. These teachers learned to play by watching and listening to great player and its how they taught. There was no 'fraud' involved. Many, many of the great players from this area of the country, not just NC, learned to play this way. Since the music is an aural tradition, far more folks learned to play without tab than with it anyway.
I do not use tab for beginners at all and prefer to use it for players who have developed some ear skills, which I try to teach. There are other teachers I know today who prefer not to use tab much, or at all and they have students who make excellent progress. I don't think I'm a fool or a fraud and those others guys I know who are no tab oriented in lessons are not fools either.
If the tab debate has gotten to the point where you are labeled a fool for using it, and or not using it, then thats sad. 
DGEBanjo - Posted - 01/05/2012: 22:01:39
Well this debate has hit another new low. Tab or no Tab? it is up to the player, the teacher and the inspiration that guides them and what teaches them the best and gives them the most ENJOYMENT.
however when a debate gets to the point where we are now making fun of Spanish people and the way they talk?
He insisted (actually inthithed - he was Sthpanish) that one couldn't learn anything from tab so he wouldn't even let me write out the stuff. That wasn't the way he learned in Spain - where his father taught him to play.
are you kidding me?
I thought we had evolved past this.
Adios Compadres
Edited by - DGEBanjo on 01/05/2012 22:02:11
erikforgod - Posted - 01/06/2012: 06:03:28
Its fortunate that some of you guys were able to sit down in front of the masters and watch, listen and learn and were able to record alot of their stuff and see it first hand but most of us dont have that luxury so tab is a very handy nifty tool indeed. What am I supposed to do? I havent had the opportunity to learn the way you guys have that were able to learn as such...and thats great! But hey....I can vouch for what Tony says being that I have done some classical guitar studuies...its actually to the contrary, many in the so-called educated school of music circles consider those who learn from tabs "frauds and fools" and the attitude is some how that if you learn from tabs you are not "professional" or something like that. Not all but many. I just think standard notation has its limitations and I think what Tony was talking about here are the purists who think otherwise and believe that the standard notation is "dogma and/or only endorse but one way of learning an instrument. I am thankful for tabs and will always use them...they are so common sense. By the way...I didnt see where he was making fun of Spanish people or speakers? I am a american living and working full time in Argentina for the past 4 years now, my wife is Argentine my first child on the way is half Argentine...I speak fluent spanish...I didnt see that he was making fun of spanish people...I think you are overreacting with that...reading what you want and intepreting it as such...
Edited by - erikforgod on 01/06/2012 06:12:36
DGEBanjo - Posted - 01/06/2012: 07:56:44
Eric
Very well said, however being half spanish myself via de Puerto Rico and also fluent , I do take offense to the quotation that I listed above it had no place in this thread it could have simply stated he was from Spain and nothing more. But agreed each of us have our own determination as to what we consider a predudicial statement. I spent many years in my youth listening to all the standard jokes and teasing so agreed I am more sensitive also being half German I spent many yrs being called Adolph Rodriguez. LOL. So I just dont see any place for that kind of talk But back to the point of the thread, tab vs ear. These as many have said are just other tools in the banjo toolbox. Good for some, bad for others. But in the end of it gets the player to where he or she wants to be then in my mind they are both ok. For me however,at my level I concentrating on my ear training and taking songs and trying to break them down melodically. Will I ever use tab, probably as my basic skills become better. I can see it being beneficial. To learn a complex break structure. But in my mind you have to hear and feel the song properly learn it
Edited by - DGEBanjo on 01/06/2012 08:15:23
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/06/2012: 08:15:40
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
Its fortunate that some of you guys were able to sit down in front of the masters and watch, listen and learn and were able to record alot of their stuff and see it first hand but most of us dont have that luxury so tab is a very handy nifty tool indeed. What am I supposed to do? I havent had the opportunity to learn the way you guys have that were able to learn as such...and thats great! But hey....I can vouch for what Tony says being that I have done some classical guitar studuies...its actually to the contrary, many in the so-called educated school of music circles consider those who learn from tabs "frauds and fools" and the attitude is some how that if you learn from tabs you are not "professional" or something like that. Not all but many. I just think standard notation has its limitations and I think what Tony was talking about here are the purists who think otherwise and believe that the standard notation is "dogma and/or only endorse but one way of learning an instrument. I am thankful for tabs and will always use them...they are so common sense. By the way...I didnt see where he was making fun of Spanish people or speakers? I am a american living and working full time in Argentina for the past 4 years now, my wife is Argentine my first child on the way is half Argentine...I speak fluent spanish...I didnt see that he was making fun of spanish people...I think you are overreacting with that...reading what you want and intepreting it as such...
Good points Eric and you are right in that many folks are fortunate to be surrounded by the music and by excellent players. I'm also aware, believe me, that everyone isn't that fortunate. Tony can correct me if I misunderstood his post. It seemed to me that he was calling anyone who teaches without tabs 'fools' and frauds'. This same attitude pervade the camps who are totally against tabs, saying folks who use tabs can't learn to play. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. But I have a knee jerk reaction when either side gets called names over it. The players who gave lessons that I've known, taught the best way they knew how, which was to pass it on by showing you, explaining how it works and giving you living examples to watch and mimic. The didn't exclude tab because they had some evil agenda to cheat you. It was because they didn't know how to read tab, or it wasn't how they learned. These folks didn't the best tehy could and there are many great banjo players from this area who learned without tab. Does that mean those folks are anti tab..no. It just means their learning experiences are different than, say, yours.
There are also many great teachers on the Hangout, who I know personally, that have a different perspective on how/when to use tabs. Some perfer to postpone the use of tab until later, while some's methodology excludes it totally. Then you'll have a large camp that starts rank beginners off with reading tab from day one. Each teacher decided what works for them and the students they have. If the student doesn't feel that a particular teachers methods is working for them, then they move on.
Name calling doesn't help anyone involved in these 'debates' and kind of ticks me off. If it were not for those players who didnt use tab, who were gracious enough to show me things (which was teaching without formal lessons and payment), I would barely be able to pick my nose, much less banjo. Tony can clarify his meaning and if Im taking his comments incorrectly, I'll be glad to give him a waiver.
Edited by - Banjophobic on 01/06/2012 09:40:21
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/06/2012: 08:47:54
There's no denying banjo can be taught in a watch, do, and learn process -- the aural tradition -- without tab or notation or anything being written down. I've certainly picked things up from other players over the years in jamming and sharing situations where I didn't have pen and paper or tape recorder. So I had to trust my memory.
But over the long term, that type of learning doesn't work for me. If my two teachers had not used tab, I would not have remembered my lessons or known what to practice.
John, you showed me some great stuff when we jammed after your concert this summer. Some really neat alternative right hand patterns for up-the-neck chord passages. Which I went home and promptly forgot! If that had been a formal lesson, you can bet that I would have written it down -- either as tab or in some other system to indicate finger and string. I suppose if I'd had an audio recorder, I could have captured it and reconstructed it from replay.
That's not a criticism or a complaint. Just commenting on my sieve of a brain. And one reason that I like tab.
So independent of all the claims of tab's supposed shortcomings, what tab can or can't convey, and why some teachers would never teach from tab -- all things that are subject to debate -- I don't think there's any way to deny that tab is a perfectly good and acceptable tool for recording on paper what you were shown in a lesson.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/06/2012: 08:59:45
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
It seemed to me that he was calling anyone who teaches without tabs 'fools' and frauds'.
I think what he said was way more narrow than that.
He said: "If you try to teach banjo by ear without first teaching ear training, I personally think you are a either a fool or a fraud."
I personally can't begin to understand how you teach ear training outside the context of teaching music or a musical instrument, so it seems to me that both can happen at once. That is, what you're trying to teach (or learn) in ear training is reinforced by applying that to specific exercises or examples or the instrument. BUT I will admit that I don't know!
I sure can't remember how I learned to play by ear. Steve Davis said it in a recent post, when he quoted his dad as saying something like "I can show you the chords, but sooner or later you'll get it."
chaosfrailer - Posted - 01/06/2012: 09:52:52
The only tab I've ever used is when I first got started bluegrass style. I already knew how to play the banjo clawhammer, but I didn't feel like taking lessons, so I got a copy of the Earl Scruggs book and learned all the songs in it by listening to Flatt and Scruggs and following along with the tab. I think learning tab to get started when you're a rank beginner is ok, but after you learn the basics, why do you need it? No offense, and I LOVE bluegrass music, but 90% of it is more or less the same thing over and over. Once you get the basic idea of how it's supposed to sound, playing Scruggs/Clawhammer/ or whatever is pretty self explanatory. Depending entirely on tab is like taking a test when you have an answer sheet on the desk. You'll pass the test, but have you really learned anything? However, when you're stuck on a problem and you can't use logic or common sense to figure it out, I think it's ok to get out the cheat sheet and peek at it.
Edited by - chaosfrailer on 01/06/2012 09:53:54
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/06/2012: 09:53:13
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
There's no denying banjo can be taught in a watch, do, and learn process -- the aural tradition -- without tab or notation or anything being written down. I've certainly picked things up from other players over the years in jamming and sharing situations where I didn't have pen and paper or tape recorder. So I had to trust my memory.
But over the long term, that type of learning doesn't work for me. If my two teachers had not used tab, I would not have remembered my lessons or known what to practice.
John, you showed me some great stuff when we jammed after your concert this summer. Some really neat alternative right hand patterns for up-the-neck chord passages. Which I went home and promptly forgot! If that had been a formal lesson, you can bet that I would have written it down -- either as tab or in some other system to indicate finger and string. I suppose if I'd had an audio recorder, I could have captured it and reconstructed it from replay.
That's not a criticism or a complaint. Just commenting on my sieve of a brain. And one reason that I like tab.
So independent of all the claims of tab's supposed shortcomings, what tab can or can't convey, and why some teachers would never teach from tab -- all things that are subject to debate -- I don't think there's any way to deny that tab is a perfectly good and acceptable tool for recording on paper what you were shown in a lesson.
Ken
I enjoyed meeting you and it was fun sitting around and picking. But that wasn't a 'formal' lesson, even though I was 'spitting out' ideas for you to mess with-
. If we had planned on a real lesson and you wanted to learn and retain some specific things, I would have used tab or recorded it. For more experienced players, like you, tab is a great learning aid. Chances are you could remember some of it, but not all of it. If I had given you 13 pages of tab, for every single thing I showed you, chances are also high that you could play them from the tab, but later on you couldn't retain everything from the tab either. There's a limited amount of space in our short term memory 'cashe' anyway. Tony's "Hot Licks for Bluegrass Banjo" is a great example of how tab can be useful to display licks. But I doubt you could learn 50 licks from it, and then go to a jam and reproduce more than a handful of licks at any given time. So tab has it limits, just like the pure ear method does.
You really shouldn't sell yourself short from that time we sat and picked. If we were doing an actual lesson, I would not have given as much information and if I had, there would be tab for you if you needed it, and sound files to go with it. How many licks could you retain from just using your ear in a lesson, once they were explained? How many could you retain from memorized tabs, after the fact? The issue isn't that its the teachers fault alone, or just some evil tab's fault, in this scenario. Its just what anyone can retain and immediately put to some use in their playing,right?
Edited by - Banjophobic on 01/06/2012 10:01:19
Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/06/2012: 09:54:19
I can only share my personal experiences:
I learned using all the methods (TAB, EAR, VISUAL, etc). I started off with TAB but quickly realized I needed more. I played a lot but didn't have time to learn every song played in jams. I needed some other method to construct breaks to songs I didn't know on the fly. At that point I sat down with a tape recorder and figured out every recording I had of Earl, Jd Crowe and Allen Shelton, the breaks and the backup. I went through many tape players because the rewind and fast forward buttons broke. LOL
A great deal of the time I didn't get it "right" as my ear hadn't developed, but as my ear got better it became easier.
I got to the point where if I heard something I knew where it was at on the fingerboard or at least had a general idea. Once your ear has developed to this point you can construct breaks to songs you don't know rather easily. At the time I had little to no understanding of music theory, I look back on it and believe if I had understood more about the STRUCTURE of music it would have been easier for me. I would have known what to listen for.
I was also fortunate to find a group of older musicians that let me play with them 4-5 nights a week. Sometimes the fiddle players would show me notes and I'd find them on my banjo. So with a combination of playing by ear and jamming A LOT I learned how to play.
There is nothing innately wrong with TAB; however, you can use it wrong. You can read it wrong (note by note) and miss the big picture. From my teaching experience, I have had trouble getting beginners to learn by ear. They just can't remember the material, even if they record it. Most do better if I write things down for them. I am developing a new system for writing things down that doesn't involve TAB and that's working well.
Teaching by ear does work well for my intermediate students.
Of course, all of this will depend on the individual student. Some people want you to write more down, others want to depend on their ears.
I think making blank statements about TAB or playing by ear isn't going to be accurate considering people learn different ways. It's what you do with it, not so much the method.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 01/06/2012 09:59:39
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/06/2012: 09:59:12
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
It seemed to me that he was calling anyone who teaches without tabs 'fools' and frauds'.
I personally can't begin to understand how you teach ear training outside the context of teaching music or a musical instrument, so it seems to me that both can happen at once. That is, what you're trying to teach (or learn) in ear training is reinforced by applying that to specific exercises or examples or the instrument.
Thats exactly what happens. Yes, there are specific exercises for learning to 'ear train'. But most 'folk' musicians don't use or have access to specific 'ear training' methods, like the ones that are taught in classical training, for instance. So, how do folks who have no such standardized ear training become such good players, with such great ears for music? Perhaps, just as you stated above?
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/06/2012: 11:00:41
Hey, John, I agree with everything you said -- especially about retention and our limited ability to remember stuff and to use stuff that we thought we learned. I only offered our great session as one more example of how if I don't write something down, chances are I'm not going to remember it. I've become the informal secretary in my bluegrass band, writing down on song sheets any changes in our arrangements from practice-to-practice. We added a verse there. No, we decided to come out of the break into the bridge. Two choruses and a cold end. Who can remember that? I do, however, have no problem remembering how songs go -- the chord pattern -- which is why I've always been able to improvise parts even when I can't remember a specific version I may have worked out.
But if I go to the grocery store without a list, I can guarantee I'm coming home without one or two of the things I specifically went to get.
So, no, I wasn't having a lesson with you. But I was picking up great stuff -- just as I was at the valuable jam sessions I attended the first summer I was learning banjo. And like a lot of that stuff that people showed me and that I could do while sitting there with them, when I picked up my banjo at home, most of it was gone.
Anyway, I believe now in hindsight that I went about learning the wrong way in the 70s and 80s. Instead of learning licks and the songs I needed for my band, I should have devoted myself to learning the fingerboard, scales, movable positions, arpeggios, and extended chords -- foundational things that I think one is less likely to forget.
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/06/2012: 11:20:35
Maybe some of you guys should go back and read the original post. He is saying that he might use tab occasionally but realizes that tab has limitations. That doesn't seem like a setup for controversy.
L
Rich Weill - Posted - 01/06/2012: 11:43:05
After reading most of the posts here -- and similar ones whenever this topic arises -- I respectfully suggest that this discussion is mixing together two different issues.
Issue 1: Learning note-for-note arrangements of songs vs. learning songs by learning the chord progression and melody and then how to weave these elements together with rolls, licks, quarter notes, pauses, pinches, slurs, ornamentation, etc. [I think this is the issue the OP was raising.]
Issue 2: Learning note-for-note arrangements (or their component elements, e.g., rolls, licks, melodies) from tab vs. learning these arrangements/elements from standard notation, by listening to recordings, by watching someone else demonstrate, etc.
I'm sure there is some overlap, but I think the core focus of each issue is different.
Richard Dress - Posted - 01/06/2012: 12:10:16
TAB: the good, the bad, and the ugly
My more worldly view of TAB starts with a general view of what I mean by TAB. For ease of discussion it helps to differentiate visual from aural methods of learning music. I have tried both ways and can vouch that they are very different, as different as hearing and seeing. movies and books.
For showing a beginner the basic banjo moves, you can't beat TAB. If you are going to show me a lick, I would rather have the TAB much more than rely on my memory or a tape recording or a video. I would want to go off by myself and work on it. I would rather have the TAB than have you stand there for a day repeating the lick over and over. TAB is a great learning tool. It can't be beat for learning technique. Plus every serious Scruggs player should learn lots of Earl Scruggs' early material note for note. Learn the TABs in the Scruggs book. That's how I learned Scruggs style. If TAB works for you better than ear, then use the TAB.
Learning Earl's visual banjo moves is not the same as learning to play music, however. No amount of TAB memorization will teach one to play music. And what good is a banjo, unless it is used for playing Scruggs bluegrass? Maybe you got talent, maybe after years of hit or miss you become a musician, or maybe you memorized the visual notes at the expenses of the aural and mistakenly think everything is OK with your banjo picking. The bad thing about TAB is that it can lead you astray in a wider musical sense.
There is an ugly way that TAB can turn on you and drag you down, if you are not careful. TAB is static and lacks dimension. A TAB is just a single point in musical space, sort of like a pixel. A musician needs to be able to move freely throughout his musical space producing a multi-dimensional picture (if you will), and TAB only provides the occasional point estimate. TAB is training wheels and my mistake was not to take the wheels off after I learned the basics. TAB worked so well for me on learning the basics that it made good sense to me then to stick with a winner.
Why are banjo breaks not all the same? Is it variation for variation's sake? Why not just learn the TAB for every 'best' banjo break. That was the idea I had when I put together my three ring binder of TAB, collected from every possible source available, Masters Of, Bluegrass Unlimited, Banjo Newsletter, workshops, teachers, other pickers collections, etc.. A big binder of all the good breaks from the bluegrass banjo greats was my answer. If I needed a quick banjo break, I could go to the TAB Library and look over the different options to mix or match. This is not an approach to learning that I would recommend to anyone. Learn from my mistake. it's too much work all the way around. Plus it is a bad idea overall.
This is not only a TAB issue. Even the ear pickers who are climbing the ladder of expertise, the question comes up: why not pick the best Scruggs break for "Handsome Molly" and go with that? Why not follow the lead of Dr. Frankenstein in a musical way? This particular TAB path eventually leads to the jungle of chimeras and musical monsters. To escape this fate you must abandon the TAB road with ail its baggage and start over again on the aural path, the high road so to speak.
Why did Ralph Stanley and Eddie Adcock, just to pick two examples, each come up with their own breaks to bluegrass songs? Earl, Ralph, and Eddie played what seemed natural to them. They had no one to show them the rolls and licks. They listened to what they could hear and chose what they liked and came up with a style that matched their own personal musical story. They walked different musical paths. They didn't seem interested in copying each other's stuff. Eddie's break is not the same as Ralph's break, and neither are like Earl's break. I believe that if Earl, Ralph, and Eddie were to try each other's style, they would not be very comfortable with playing that way and they would be glad to revert to their own thing. By the same token, we would also be more comfortable in our own style (if we had one) than in theirs, or anyone else's.
What is the best way to master a break to a song? Maybe learn the Ralph Stanley break as well as the Scruggs break and play half and half? Won't that sound good? Maybe throw in a quarter break of Reno and a 4 measure Bela lick to be cool? At some point I think every upwardly mobile picker is going to be faced with that conundrum. Which way to go? Memorize more stuff or develop a style? I think every good banjo player has chosen to go for the style and the musical freedom it provides, rather than be weighed down with the chains of TAB.
Is developing a style such a big deal? Not at all. The personal style is actually the easiest way to go. A style in this sense is coming up with your own way to do things and not to worry anymore about how other people do it. You can ditch all the three ring binders.
There is not that much difference anyway, visually speaking, between the good and bad players. Make up your mind about banjo technique and then concentrate on the music half of the equation. You will never reach your goal if you stay mired in monster land.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/06/2012: 12:29:37
Laurence and Rich:
You're both raising some valid points and possible clarification. But there's all kinds of things that can be read into the OP, not all of which have been addressed in this thread but that have certainly been said in any of the countless other tab is good-tab is bad discussions.
I'll pull out one comment in particular from the OP: "what happens if ya happen to be playing with people that ain't playing the tunes you have learned from tab?"
My answer would be that you draw on the tunes you have learned from tab to play pieces from them that fit into the chords of the tunes the people are playing. If you can't do that yet, then you should at least understand now that that's what you want to be working toward.
You will never learn from tab all of the tunes or songs you might ever play. Especially if you play in jams. Someone's certain to call one you've never heard, let alone learned.
If you can only play the tunes you've learned from tab, that's not the tab's fault. If you have learned several tunes from tab and haven't started to recognize the repeatable and repeated pieces that characterize so much of banjo playing, that's not the tab's fault either. Eventually you will.
The point of any individual tune that's been tabbed out is, of course, to show one way to play that particular tune. But the point of tab used in a teaching context or published in an instructional book is not only to teach the tune but to support the learning process -- which ought to include learning to recognize typical chord progressions, hear or anticipate chord changes, and draw from the various things you know how to do that work with those chords.
Tab in and of itself does not teach that. But tab contains the information that supports learning all of that.
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/07/2012: 11:24:05
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
Maybe some of you guys should go back and read the original post. He is saying that he might use tab occasionally but realizes that tab has limitations. That doesn't seem like a setup for controversy.
L
1. Is there any learning method that doesn't have limitations?
2. Is there any subject that isn't controversial? ;-)
same old same old
steve davis - Posted - 01/07/2012: 11:33:31
Tab will never hurt you,but you should practice improvising,too.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/07/2012: 14:23:10
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
For showing a beginner the basic banjo moves, you can't beat TAB. Plus every serious Scruggs player should learn lots of Earl Scruggs' early material note for note. If TAB works for you better than ear, then use the TAB.
TAB is static and lacks dimension. A TAB is just a single point in musical space, sort of like a pixel. A musician needs to be able to move freely throughout his musical space producing a multi-dimensional picture (if you will), and TAB only provides the occasional point estimate.
I liked these comments of yours Richard. I actually make the exact statement you wrote in your first sentence to my students all the time. The problem with a TAB or a chord chart is it's STATIC and music is DYNAMIC. It doesn't accurately represent the way people play because good musicians change the way they play something verse to verse or chorus to chorus. I thought the analogy you used of a pixel was great. It is just a snapshot of a given space-time.
For example, if you have a chart that says G C D G, that's fine but the musicians might be putting sevenths, sixths or other embellishments on the chords. It is of course the same with TAB of a given persons break.
As far as your other comments, I think that is actually a good way to create your own style. I started off working on just Earl, then Crowe and then moved on to Shelton and Osborne. At some point my playing became a conglomeration of all of that. The more I studied, the more influences I had and it eventually came out sounding like me.
I do think there is a danger in just jumping to ones own personal style at first. Mostly because you don't have fundamentals down and I think there is much to be learned studying what came before you. If you understand how they thought you can build on it. If you just hand a guy a banjo the chances he is going to come up with something on the artistic level of Scruggs or Crowe is extremely slim. At the same time, there is also the danger of just rehashing stuff people have already played. How one feels about that will depend on their goals.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 01/07/2012 14:26:30
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/07/2012: 20:48:32
The Sthpanish joke I made was one my Spanish, Cuban, Puerto Rican, or Mexican friends never found insulting back when I was a flamenco guitarist - I also never considered it an insult when they mimicked my terrible pronunciation of the various flamenco terms - I never learned Spanish -- just the words I needed to describe the techniques. I could set off gales of laughter without ever making a joke.
As to TAB vs EAR
I know many people who learned by ear, but they either had a very good ear to begin with or they had people around they could spend more than an hour a week with. Take the guy from western NC who mentioned this and then talked about having not a professional teacher, but whole bunches of people who didn't know tab or music but who were around to help him. This is known as "Living or Growing up in the tradition". It is a great way to learn, but most people do not have the luxury of asking an uncle or an uncle's friend "exactly how was it that lick you played last night went, Charlie? I am not talking about this form of learning, at all about but all the Music Store, TV and Book teachers who claim to teach everything without TAB or Music because they have a special way of teaching that makes the student able to play immediately without those 'artificial' methods.
The successful teachers of this type really just do what I did - they do ear training disguised as learning the instrument. I just added tab and/or music to the system to speed things up - considerably. But there are hundreds of thousands of itinerant teachers out there who simply use the least efficient method of teaching, and if the student doesn't get it that dust off their hands saying: "He wasn't meant to play the banjo." They don't think the job is, actually learning how to teach. And what does this special secret method of learning usually amount to?
Monkey see - Monkey do.
The student sits there and, unless his ear is actually pre-trained from some other source (like a choir or school orchestra, or living with a musician in the same tradition, or just being a born natural ), the only way he learns from this type of teacher is by copying the left hand movements and right hand strikes of the teacher. I call this living tab, and it works in person, but is hard to carry home, because time is the enemy of memory and destroys much of learning. It works best when the important parts of the lesson is put on video - one that shows both hands well. But without a video or some other permanent record of the music, rote learning is the hardest cruelest way to becoming a player. You have to be able to memorize large chunks of material from two hands that sometimes don't seem to be working on the same thing - like when a left hand finger stays down until a later right hand strike. Few beginners can memorize both hands at the same time.
And I am talking about beginners here. Once you know a fretted instrument all other fretted instruments become fairly simple because all you have to learn are techniques - not how the tunes, and the harmony and the arrangement work. The hard part - learning the Music is mostly already done. Even knowing how to play a band instrument is a big step up along the learning curve, but the closer you have been to the actual instrument you are learning right now, the smoother the transition will be.
So if you have a good ear, and/or prior training it is easy to learn from these guys - but you still have the problem of remembering the stuff until you get home - especially since so many of these "Memorize It" dudes refuse to let students tape the lessons "It'll kill your memory!"
Actually anything less than a video of the lessons is creating a problem, since memory is a slippery thing. What the "I learned from a bunch of guys who never heard of tab" people don't realize is that those guys were the Living Tabs. If you forgot a phrase you went down to their house and got them to play it again or waitd a day until they were passing your house. Great way to learn if you've got a whole lot of time, but no good to the guy who lives 1000 miles away. You grew up amid constant reference material, and now you want the rest of us to pick up what you know in an hour - without any way of holding the material in their heads? It ain't gonna happen, at least not until and unless you add an efficient method of storage to the lessons. Like Videos, like tabs, like Music Notation.
So I stand by what I said.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 01/07/2012 20:57:50
Richard Dress - Posted - 01/07/2012: 21:06:07
Why spoil the atmosphere of a thread by complaining about something so trivial that it depends on whether or not King Pedro had a lisp in 1400AD? Anyway, thanks, Jody for your comments. I value your opinion.
Edited by - un5trung on 01/08/2012 06:41:57
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/07/2012: 21:13:26
As to Ear Training:
I took a number of lessons in interval training. This was done without instruments save for the teachers's piano. I never played a lick in these lessons. I think I took 6 lessons of a half hour each, over the course of a couple weeks. It was the best investment I ever made.
Before I finished the course I was making back my money by tabbing out guitar solos for those who were too lazy to do what I did. My knowledge of intervals made me a much better teacher all around. I seriously recommend it - especially to the people who think tab is the Devil's Instrument. It really helps if only to KNOW where your students could be starting from and might help you keep the ones who would soon drop out.
And anyone who thinks they know how music should be learned without having the experience of teaching others is self deluded to the Nth degree. I've auditioned to get teaching positions in the past, but I really don't think just knowing how to play is any indication of how well you will teach. You have to know how to teach to teach. I regret the damage I did to some of my students in my first year of teaching, and hope they found a better more experienced teacher to help them with their particular and individual problems before it was too late
My hands are so crippled now I can barely play, (fortunately I can usually keep rhythm and play a basic melody - which is enough to have fun playing with friends) but I get emails every week from people thanking me for teaching them not only the basics of clawhammer but for showing them how to work on some of the advanced stuff too. All that without ever even meeting them face to face. It is pretty gratifying.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 01/07/2012 21:18:30
BobCu - Posted - 01/08/2012: 06:06:31
Nothing wrong with tab, but for the last year or more I get tunes by poking around the internet that have the chord changes with the lyrics, and you go from there to pick out melody, etc. I have found that there is a lot more music posted that way than with a formal tab sheet. The above gives you a very good starting point when learning a tune. YMMV.
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/08/2012: 09:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
The Sthpanish joke I made was one my Spanish, Cuban, Puerto Rican, or Mexican friends never found insulting back when I was a flamenco guitarist - I also never considered it an insult when they mimicked my terrible pronunciation of the various flamenco terms - I never learned Spanish -- just the words I needed to describe the techniques. I could set off gales of laughter without ever making a joke.
As to TAB vs EAR
I know many people who learned by ear, but they either had a very good ear to begin with or they had people around they could spend more than an hour a week with. Take the guy from western NC who mentioned this and then talked about having not a professional teacher, but whole bunches of people who didn't know tab or music but who were around to help him. This is known as "Living or Growing up in the tradition". It is a great way to learn, but most people do not have the luxury of asking an uncle or an uncle's friend "exactly how was it that lick you played last night went, Charlie? I am not talking about this form of learning, at all about but all the Music Store, TV and Book teachers who claim to teach everything without TAB or Music because they have a special way of teaching that makes the student able to play immediately without those 'artificial' methods.
The successful teachers of this type really just do what I did - they do ear training disguised as learning the instrument. I just added tab and/or music to the system to speed things up - considerably. But there are hundreds of thousands of itinerant teachers out there who simply use the least efficient method of teaching, and if the student doesn't get it that dust off their hands saying: "He wasn't meant to play the banjo." They don't think the job is, actually learning how to teach. And what does this special secret method of learning usually amount to?
Monkey see - Monkey do.
The student sits there and, unless his ear is actually pre-trained from some other source (like a choir or school orchestra, or living with a musician in the same tradition, or just being a born natural ), the only way he learns from this type of teacher is by copying the left hand movements and right hand strikes of the teacher. I call this living tab, and it works in person, but is hard to carry home, because time is the enemy of memory and destroys much of learning. It works best when the important parts of the lesson is put on video - one that shows both hands well. But without a video or some other permanent record of the music, rote learning is the hardest cruelest way to becoming a player. You have to be able to memorize large chunks of material from two hands that sometimes don't seem to be working on the same thing - like when a left hand finger stays down until a later right hand strike. Few beginners can memorize both hands at the same time.
And I am talking about beginners here. Once you know a fretted instrument all other fretted instruments become fairly simple because all you have to learn are techniques - not how the tunes, and the harmony and the arrangement work. The hard part - learning the Music is mostly already done. Even knowing how to play a band instrument is a big step up along the learning curve, but the closer you have been to the actual instrument you are learning right now, the smoother the transition will be.
So if you have a good ear, and/or prior training it is easy to learn from these guys - but you still have the problem of remembering the stuff until you get home - especially since so many of these "Memorize It" dudes refuse to let students tape the lessons "It'll kill your memory!"
Actually anything less than a video of the lessons is creating a problem, since memory is a slippery thing. What the "I learned from a bunch of guys who never heard of tab" people don't realize is that those guys were the Living Tabs. If you forgot a phrase you went down to their house and got them to play it again or waitd a day until they were passing your house. Great way to learn if you've got a whole lot of time, but no good to the guy who lives 1000 miles away. You grew up amid constant reference material, and now you want the rest of us to pick up what you know in an hour - without any way of holding the material in their heads? It ain't gonna happen, at least not until and unless you add an efficient method of storage to the lessons. Like Videos, like tabs, like Music Notation.
So I stand by what I said.
The Monkey see" method is also a characterization of the standard ' tab' teaching methodology. I prefer to say that most aural learning instruction is 'money hears, monkey plays'. . Ear training occurs from being able to hear nuances in music, rhythm, how/why to control dynamics. Tablature does not convey those things. Listening and playing what you hear will. I start beginners with simple rhythm, and we work on hearing and identifying chord changes and being aware of simple dynamics. I want them to feel and hear whats happening while they play. Having them just focus on tabs diverts this attention to the page, and not what they should be hearing. Once the foundations of rhythm and simple progessions are ingrained, then tab can be used some. If they insist on using tabs from day one, i highly recommend they spend as much time as possible listening to the music being played from the tab as possible. They shouldn't make assumptions that how they are playing notes from the tab is giving them a real picture of the music, because it wont. "Ear training' can and does occur from actually playing music and understanding what it is you are playing. Most folks wont have the luxury of getting formal training, just as many wont have the luxury of living in a traditional atmosphere of live music, like 'the guy from western " did. You can use my name here,as i;m comfortable with it,haha.
As far as the comment you made about " teachers who sell methods who "claim to teach everything without TAB or Music because they have a special way of teaching that makes the student able to play immediately without those 'artificial' methods" goes, i don't really understand the animosity I sense in the statement. Most of the well known folks, like Murphy Henry, for example, set a goal of trying to get folks to use their ears first, and not the tablature. I don't think she is a 'fool' or a "fraud' sir. While everyone wont agree with her methods, there's no reason to hurl insults at her. she is dedicated to her methodology and is at least trying to get players to trust in their ears more. and tab less. Is watching someone play in a video as good as actually playing with others? No, but neither is sitting around all the time looking at tablature. If you insist on lumping teachers formal and informal, and 'purchased' sources as 'fools' and 'frauds' based on your definitions, then we definitely have to part ways here. I'll also stand by what i said. I'll drop out of this thread by saying tab is a very good tool but I have always believed that the ear is a musicians best 'tool' and the brain should be connected to it. Starting with tab only and then using it too much, can lead to not even giving the ear the chance it deserves. Moderation in all things is my advice. I'm out-
Edited by - Banjophobic on 01/08/2012 09:28:30
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/08/2012: 12:49:06
Moderation is my advice too. I don't find 50 bucks worth of DVD very moderate when they slow your progress to the point where you might drop out. I'm not familiar with Murphy's Method, although I am fully aware of Murphy's Law. I neither play nor teach Bluegrass.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/08/2012: 13:41:14
I've watched some Murphy Method free samples on YouTube -- and have to admit I finally learned a decent version of Soldier's Joy that way.
Yes, Murphy Method is on one level "human tab" in that she shows and tells you exactly what notes (string/fret) to play in what order. And she demonstrates for you.
But, from what I saw Murphy Method offers a bit more than simply do-as-I-do rote learning that substitutes a live teacher for tab. She does in fact explain or describe elements of technique or subtleties of playing. For example, she shows you which notes are melody and which are filler and talks about how you want to play them differently. She talks about how it's ok if your middle finger wants to hit the first string even in places where it doesn't have to. She points out things you're doing that are similar to what she's showed you in other places. None of that could be conveyed very well in tab.
I suppose what allows the Murphy Method to overcome the problem of the student forgetting the lesson is that the lessons are on DVD and so the student can return to them time and again. And there's nothing to keep anyone from tabbing out the lessons themselves. She goes slow enough to make that easy.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 01/08/2012: 14:26:40
This sounds pretty much like how I used to teach - but I also had a tab to give teh student to help him remember - frequently with scribbled notes about the hard spots we encountered in the lesson.
JamesTanglewylde - Posted - 01/08/2012: 14:27:53
I use tab for advanced theory. Scales, arpeggios, and such. I don't need tab to learn songs but I find it to be a valuable tool for exchanging ideas and furthering ones knowledge of the instrument. If Pat Cloud wanted to come to my house and show me all of his ideas, techniques and such, that would be fine. But since that's not gonna happen I'll take the tab.
Geez, is it a little hot in here or what???
banjodawg - Posted - 01/09/2012: 11:34:47
I try not to use tab. However, like many of those who are still working, most of my practice sessions come at the end of long days, so there are times when my tired old mind needs the temporary crutch of writing out a difficult section of a tune to organize it in my head. (Forgive me, Murphy!)
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