ken61 - Posted - 11/16/2011:  07:45:23

We are four members of the Adirondack woodturners Association  in upstste New York near Albany and we are Hangout members.  We are woodturners --we turn wood on a lathe.  Banjo rims and resonators can be  made on the lathe and therefore pose no real problem.  We have decided to gather together at my shop once per week and each of us will build a banjo.  We have gathered the wood, sepele , mahogany, and maple for the neck, cherry, maple, for the rims, and the search for  material for the resonators is ongoing.

So far we have discussed the direction we will proceed, cut the segments for the rims, and have ulued up the segments (6) for each of three rings.  The rings have been planned, sanded flat on both sides,  and are ready to be glued.  They were sanded on a Ryobi drum sander.  After gluing they will be turned for a one piece flange.

It is my intention to keep a running description here of our progress and procedures.

The segments for these rings were cut on a tablesaw with the sled shown below, glued together in groups of three, each group of three was adjusted on a disc sander and two groups of three were glued together to form a ring.  All three rings were planed and sanded to be glued together.

Shown also , are two views of a banjo I made previously by these methods. 

Enjoy and if I can be of help to anyone making a banjo, please don't hesitate to ask questions.  It is a great and satisfying adventure.

ken

lousymom - Posted - 11/16/2011:  08:39:27

Lovely work! Please keep posting pics.

mtnpckr - Posted - 11/16/2011:  08:41:11

About your math - you are proposing making 4 banjos from 3 rims?  But I appreciate being kept informed of your progress. Personally I couldn't build a toothpick , even from blueprints when it comes to woodworking. LOL

andyboyman - Posted - 11/16/2011:  08:47:32

the resonator looks really nice.

yopasjim - Posted - 11/16/2011:  08:48:21

Man, I wish I lived close by you all.  I would love to get in on this!  Enjoy my woodturning friends!

banjotef - Posted - 11/16/2011:  09:13:28

Keep it going.  This looks fascinating,  and the banjos look great!

chickenpickin - Posted - 11/16/2011:  09:18:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtnpckr

About your math - you are proposing making 4 banjos from 3 rims?  But I appreciate being kept informed of your progress. Personally I couldn't build a toothpick , even from blueprints when it comes to woodworking. LOL

---

He never stated they were making 4 banjos from 3 rims. He did mention about making a rim from 3 block rings or segmented rings to be glued up in order to make 1 rim. You may have mistook the (3 rings) for rims

Tim

chickenpickin - Posted - 11/16/2011:  09:19:55

Great work!! I love that resonator.

Tim

mtnpckr - Posted - 11/16/2011:  10:27:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by chickenpickin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtnpckr

About your math - you are proposing making 4 banjos from 3 rims?  But I appreciate being kept informed of your progress. Personally I couldn't build a toothpick , even from blueprints when it comes to woodworking. LOL

---

He never stated they were making 4 banjos from 3 rims. He did mention about making a rim from 3 block rings or segmented rings to be glued up in order to make 1 rim. You may have mistook the (3 rings) for rims

Tim

---

 Please reread the subject before you take issue with my post.

mbowman - Posted - 11/16/2011:  10:59:34

On another recent thread I learned that it is possible( and has been done) to turn two necks on a lathe and split them apart on the center line (fretboard). What a "pure" woodturnin' build that would be.

mbowman - Posted - 11/16/2011:  11:02:23

oh,oh,oh,... and "Moon bridges" turned all four at once.

mtnpckr - Posted - 11/16/2011:  11:26:44

okay, much as i hate to admit a mistake, at least I waited til November to make mine this year, now I just have to make it through Dec.  I did read rings as rims, damn speed reading training anyway. LOL

ken61 - Posted - 11/16/2011:  12:47:25

The nice thing about a resonator made this way is the total control one has in regard to the design.  In this case the sides are maple and bubinga segments with veneer lines between each segment of the alternative wood.  One could do almost anything on the sides in terms of segmentation.

The back is of bookmatched birdseye maple.  This too could be segmented in an endless variety of ways.

The rims could also be embellished with more than three rings and much fancier segments and veneers between the rings.  It is interesting to think up ways to make interesting patterns.

Do a good turn!

ken

BPorter - Posted - 11/16/2011:  14:07:08

Love that Bird's Eye maple resonator!

Bill Porter

ken61 - Posted - 11/17/2011:  09:09:30

The banjo pictured is one of two sisters identical except one is a flattop as in the pic and the other is an archtop.

Everyone loves the resonator.  I should describe the process!

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/20/2011:  12:24:05

Well, we four met again today and cut necks from sepele.  Ran the tension rod slot down the middle, and glued on ears.  We also cut more rim ring blanks and glued them up.  We will be running the rings through the sander this Tuesday and they will be ready for gluing.

We chatted about the turning process and jam chucking and we discussed resonator design.

Everyone is looking for resonator back material.

We have only met twice and we have 4 banjos well under way and somewhat ahead of schedule.

do a good turn

ken

Greg in VA - Posted - 11/20/2011:  12:30:49

Too cool..

Greg

uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/20/2011:  13:40:07

Ken,

I love what you are doing, and when I saw your first posts I thought you were using indigenous wood but then I read on.

I'm a little sad that you are using woods like sapele and mahogany - anybody can turn a resonator out of something like that.  There you are in (near) the Adirondacks, which has a magnificent sustainable hardwood forest and you're using exotic tropical hardwood.

Why don't you use something from your own back yard and make a point for your woodturner's guild and get real?

I intend to start turning resonators with a back turned from the solid and a segmented or bent rim.  My intention is to use maple and cherry crotchwood and burls that I collect locally.  I have big pieces of Honduras mahogany 24 inches wide and 4 inches thick, that you would love - I got from the pattern shop at Corning Glass, but I won't use it for resonators - no way, no how.

BPorter - Posted - 11/20/2011:  13:56:42

Fixtures and DeStaCo clamps go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Bill Porter

ken61 - Posted - 11/20/2011:  14:56:12

Well here you are!  First rim of three rings of six segmented American Black Cherry with a tone ring of Bubinga and a 1/4 inch accent of mahogany.  Other rims I have made are of cherry only.  We are working on two other cherry and one maple--all from the great Adirondack Forest.

Necks will be of mahogany, sepele, and one of figured Maple.

This rim is NOT one of the four banjos mentioned above, but rather for an open back which will be my practice banjo--lighter in weight  etc.

The rim will have a clear head I think!   I am partial to bubinga as trim

The resonators will also be local wood from the Adirondacks but figured if we can find something worthy.

We are having fun!

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/20/2011:  15:09:11

oops! where did the pic go??

5steve - Posted - 11/20/2011:  16:06:37

Hi ken , Nice looking project, I was just curious where are you guys located ? I,m about 25 miles southeast of Albany where the Taconic Parkway meets theThruway. I assume you are somewhat north of Albany. Steve

ken61 - Posted - 11/20/2011:  17:06:55

Steve
We are members of the northeast woodworkers association woodworker.org.
We have a shop in Cohoes , NY just off rte 9 in Clifton Park.

We are often there, but we are building these banjos in my shop which is in Valley FAlls, NY which is about 40 minutes north of Albany. Not actually that far from you.

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/21/2011:  07:31:52

Here is the rig for the tablesaw to cut segments for the edge of the resonator.  The resonator will have an edge of two rings of different woods, maybe with veneer between segments.  There will be 16 segments in each ring.

The angle is 11.5 degrees on each segment.  formula is 360 /nr of segments divided by 2 equals the angle on each segment.  The long edge of each segment is 2 7/8 inches and the width is 1 3/8 inches and the thickness is whatever you want .  These numbers were determined by making a full size drawing.

The pic is of the first trial run to test the joints cut by the rig.  These were perfect as you can see.

The rig is a piece of plywood with two maple runners beneath it in the saw mitre slots.  The dark brown board is 1 inch plus thick and swings on a drywall screw to the right.  The first run is made after the angle is determined with the brown board hot glued TEMPORARILY in place.  If the joints are not good, it is easily removed and reset.  When the joints work (and they did here first time, more hot glue is added along the edge, and one more sheet rock screw is added at the left.  The clamp holds a movable length stop made from a cut off.

ken61 - Posted - 11/22/2011:  19:56:02

Today we put six glued up rings through the planer and the ryobi drum sander and they are ready to be glued into two three ring stacks for rims.  We will take the rims to the gentleman who makes our bandsaw blades and have him weld up a bandsaw blade running through three such rim glue-ups.  This bandsaw blade will then be placed on the bandsaw and used to cut out the center of the three rim blanks.  The blade will then be removed from the saw and broken at the weld.  The blanks (3) will be removed from the blade.  Another blade will be installed and used to cut the outside of the rim to round.

Then these blanks will be turned on the lathe one at a time to produce three rims.  They will each be turned to match their respective tone ring and one piece flange.

They will each be held on the lathe by fixing them to a faceplate holding a glued sandwich of plywood and underlayment of 15 inch diameter.  They will be fixed to this faceplate plywood combination with Hot Melt Glue and turned as follows.

1.  The top of the rim is fixed to the faceplate plywood structure with hot glue and the rime will be fitted to the one piece flange.  Then the rim will be removed from the faceplate plywood structure and placed into a jamb chuck such that the top of the rim can be fitted to the tone ring.  Sanding will be to 220 grit and sanding sealer applied.

The sanding sealer is 1/2 Sherwin Williams sanding sealer and 1/2 real turpentine.  This mix will last forever in a jar with a lid on a workbench.  It is wonderful stuff.

I am trying to go into detail for any who are interested in our process.  The use of Hot melt glue to hold things on the lathe might not be well known outside the turning world.  Jam chucking as well is a very useful way to hold things and requires nothing more than some wood and a faceplate.  Yes we have chucks, but jam chucking is easier faster and more accurate.

I will try to get some pics of the bandsawing , the hot melt glue holding and of the jam chucking when we do these things.

do a good turn

ken

Edited by - ken61 on 11/22/2011 19:58:42

ReallyBigDan - Posted - 11/23/2011:  09:22:09

Steve --

As Ken mentioned, we are members of the Northeastern Woodworkers Association.  Check out our website at woodworker.org.  Which will also provide a link to the Adirondack Woodturners Association (a special interest group of NWA).

Dan

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5steve

Hi ken , Nice looking project, I was just curious where are you guys located ? I,m about 25 miles southeast of Albany where the Taconic Parkway meets theThruway. I assume you are somewhat north of Albany. Steve

---

Quickstep192 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  09:27:56

Ken,

I've read much about how a lot of guys use metal lathes to turn rims in order to get the precision, especially where the tone ring fits to the rim. Assuming you're using woodworking lathes, how are you acheiving the level of accuracy for the rim to tone ring fit?

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  11:06:16

Quickstep192

We are all  woodturners by hobby ! Some with more experience than others.  I have been turning since 1994.  I teach woodturning.  The fact is this accuracy is not a problem for an experienced woodturner.   There are many tricks and many ways to make measurements such as to get the necessary dimensions quite accurately and precisely.

I realize to someone not experienced in woodturning, this likely seems a major hurdle.  The metal lathe with its controlled movable tool rest looks like the only way to a beginner, but with a little experience , anyone can learn to do it free hand with a few measuring tools. 

ken

woodgoround.com

Quickstep192 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  14:12:18

Ken,

I went on your website and browsed your gallery. I saw one picture of a rim on the lathe. Did you simply screw a big blank onto a plate and then glue the rim to it to turn it?

Edited by - Quickstep192 on 11/23/2011 14:14:29

uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/23/2011:  14:38:21

It's amazing what you can do with a wood lathe if you have the skill and experience.  I think I mentioned on another thread that there are guys who turn bowls with wood lathes who are skilled beyond your wildest dreams.

Imagine turning a large bowl from a burl with a machine lathe

Wood is a material that "moves", hence is a moving target.  Machine lathes are designed for metal, wood lathes for wood.  The only benefit of a machine lathe over a wood lathe for banjo rims is the feed, which assures a right angle cut.  You can achieve this with a few simple measuring jigs.

Fitting a tone ring is simple - you just have to cut a little - fit - sand a little- fit, until it's right - trial and error - you can't just "dial in" a diameter with wood:

You can get the diameter to within a few thousandths.

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  15:22:28

Ok, there is one of those really neat tricks to getting the measurements correct.

Let's answer the question regarding the rim on my website which looks like it is glued on a big block of wood.

This is a rim for a tube and plate  not a one piece flange.  These are a bit more difficult to turn , but no real problem.

The rim started out as a 2 3/4 inch high circle about 1 inch thick made of three rings of six segments.  It was hot glued to faceplate to which a 15 inch diameter/15 inch particle board sandwich was screwed.  The bottom was trued, the detail for the tube and plate was added at the correct distance from the bottom etc, and the thickness was taken care of.  It was glued to that plywood sandwich at the end you are looking at in the picture--the top of the rim where the tonering will go.

When all of the above was done, it was removed from the plywood sandwich and placed bottom and now finished ind into the JAM CHUCK you see as a big chunk of wood.

This JAM Chuck is just that , a big chumk of wood attached to a faceplate, turned round and flat across the front into which a mortise (channel) is cut EXACTLY and I mean exactly the size of the rim bottom.  When I say exactly, I mean that the rim will fit into this channel only if I JAM it into the channel.  It is a very tight fit.

It is self centering, very strong holding and reuseable to some extent.  This allows me to adjust the total height of the rim, fit the tonering etc, without damaging the bottom of the rim with some type of holding device like a chuck.

I know there are many ways to accomplish this--longworth chucks etc.  The jam chuck is easy and fast to make and holds better than most other ways without leaving marks.

I hold a resonator the same way.

Hope this answers your questions and gives you something to think about.

Happy Thanksgiving

ken

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  15:26:16

Do I see finger joints in that rim blank??

I love it!  There are so many ways to do it.

I have not seen anyone do a staved construction for a rim--this should be the easiest of all.

I  will bet someone has tried it.

ken

uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/23/2011:  15:31:24

Yes, it has finger joints, which allow me to use a small, piece of wood (some of my wood is 200 years old) and orient the grain either horizontally or vertically (I like horizontal).

5steve - Posted - 11/23/2011:  15:50:11

Hi Again, I see where you are now. I checked out your website I like the jam chuck too. I haven't turned anything that large yet but am hoping to do some this winter. Keep up the good work .  Steve

uncle.fogey - Posted - 11/23/2011:  15:54:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken61

Do I see finger joints in that rim blank??

I love it!  There are so many ways to do it.

I have not seen anyone do a staved construction for a rim--this should be the easiest of all.

I  will bet someone has tried it.

ken

 

---

Ken,

Larry "Helix" uses a modified stave construction with the grain going vertically,  You can find him on the hangout.

I use the finger joint construction because I want the grain to run horizontally around the rim, and end grain will not produce a strong enough glue joint to do this "stave" style.

I have designed a LOT of stave style bowls and other things over the years, but always vertical grain - here are some things made of bamboo, in the traditional stave style, with really narrow staves because of the material.

Side-grain glue joints like these would be just as strong as the wood itself.

Ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  16:28:36

Uncle.fogey

I see you are a Pennsylvanian.  I have always said the best woodturners come from PA.  I am from THe Wilkes BArre Hazelton area of PA.  Now living in Upstate NY.

Your bamboo pieces are outstanding.  I have a friend who makes bamboo fly rods--they are hexagonal glue ups and sell for thousands of $. Wonderful t material.

I just made a staved ring for a rim.  Actually made two.  They are just rings now, not sure what I will do to them or with them.

Where else can you have this much fun?

Would love to see one of the finished rings of the staved fingerjoint variety!  Any pics?

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  16:32:04

Steve

You are really not too far from where the Adirondack Woodturners Meet each Wednesday evening.

1 Mustang Drive Cohoes, NY.  We are actually in Clifton Park just off Rte 9, but the mailing address is Cohoes.

You should consider droping by some Wed.  Nothing tomorrow due to the holiday , but every Wed otherwise at 6:00PM to about 9PM.

ken

SWCooper - Posted - 11/23/2011:  16:53:06

We live in a house that's over 400 years old. Last year, we had a woodworm expert in to check the health of our woodwork. When I mentioned that the beams were 400 years old, he said, "oh, no ma'am -- they'll be much older than that. They're all reclaimed from older structures. Could be as much as a thousand years old." Which, when you consider the oak tree was perhaps hundreds of years old when it was cut, is something else.

Anyway, you can buy reclaimed timber from old houses. It's my dream to have somebody make me a banjo out of one. I don't know what you'd do about the natural splits and woodworm holes, but the beams themselves are as hard as iron and probably acoustically very interesting.

Just musing here.

ken61 - Posted - 11/23/2011:  17:05:43

Are you ready for this!  We just had a fellow speak to our club about 40,000 year old Kauri from New Zealand.

It is being brought out of the peat bogs.  We all bought some , but not enough to build a banjo.

40,000 is hard to believe.

ancientwood.com

SWCooper - Posted - 11/23/2011:  17:40:54

I knew they were making bridges out of long-submerged timber. 40,000 is pushing it, though :)

CreekRunner - Posted - 11/23/2011:  17:44:29

Hey guys. Just starting to investigate building my own banjo. No wood turning experience either. What's your opinions on a shop smith mark 510 for woodworking? Just curious.

David

BNJOMAKR - Posted - 11/24/2011:  08:12:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken61

 

When all of the above was done, it was removed from the plywood sandwich and placed bottom and now finished ind into the JAM CHUCK you see as a big chunk of wood.

This JAM Chuck is just that , a big chumk of wood attached to a faceplate, turned round and flat across the front into which a mortise (channel) is cut EXACTLY and I mean exactly the size of the rim bottom.  When I say exactly, I mean that the rim will fit into this channel only if I JAM it into the channel.  It is a very tight fit.

 

I hold a resonator the same way.

   

ken

 

---

In 1978, I built my first mahogany resonator back using the same process. I screwed the stock onto a homemade face plate lathe, and first turned the convex side. I took it off the face plate, remounted another piece of wood, turned out a convex dish that the resonator would press fit into, and then turned the convex side of the resonator back. I turned the side wall of the resonator from a solid piece of magogany and glued it to the resonator back. The resonator was made from only two pieces. The resonator looked like it was turned from one piece of wood. I still have the banjo, and the resonator has never warped.

p.s. I bought the Honduran mahogany from a local lumber supply in Statesville. It was 15" x 2"x 8' ! He said it was the last piece that he had, and that he wanted to get rid of it, and that he wanted $60 for it! MAN, I WISH THAT I COULD BUY SOME LIKE THAT TODAY! 

ken61 - Posted - 11/24/2011:  09:45:02

Your process is very similar to mine !  The nice thing is it is easy to vary the look  ie the decoration of the resonator using this method.

It amazes me how many people here on the hangout have made banjos--some with very few tools and little woodworking experience, but a great deal of desire and inventiveness.

It really makes the efforts of those of us with experience and full woodworking shops seem trivial by comparison.

I have truly great respect for these builders--respect for their desire and drive and for their inventiveness.

ken

ken61 - Posted - 11/24/2011:  15:29:35

Just finished this rim

Bubinga tonering

Three rings of six segments of cherry

two rings 1/4 inch thick of six segments of sepele.

24 shoes and hooks and a clear head

Waverly  Tail piece and a neck from a SAGA kit.  To be replaced as soon as another neck is finished.

5steve - Posted - 11/25/2011:  14:37:30

hI , I think I might do that sometime in the next few weeks . I'll let you know. Steve

ken61 - Posted - 11/25/2011:  18:53:54

Just a little more !  Here is the new ring with its new arm rest of Cherry to match the rim.

I think it looks pretty good.  Sounds pretty good to me!

The guys will be to my shop Sunday and we will continue with the project of building 4 banjos--Mastertone style.  The parts arrived in the mail the other day.

We will continue with the rim work , a little neck work, and begin to make the bridges.

There is some inlay work practice in the near future for us all.

ken

bricklifter - Posted - 11/26/2011:  13:02:04

cool--love the wood tone ring

chris

ken61 - Posted - 11/26/2011:  14:11:46

Ok, a couple more pics

1.  Three six segment rings gluing up.

2. Two rings of 16 segments -one maple and one bubinga to be used for resonator rims.

3. close-up of the sixteen segment joints.

ken61 - Posted - 11/27/2011:  05:45:01

The three six segment rings have glued all night and were cut to round on the bandsaw.

Here are some pics.  They can be turned like they are , but will likely go to the bandsaw again to be cut round in the middle so as to make the turning less difficult .  This requires a bandsaw blade to be welded up through the ring and broken after the cut.

Experienced turners could turn it as is easily, but for turners with less experience, we cut it round inside.

do a good turn

ken