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Dave Peterson - Posted - 10/13/2011: 10:51:32
Does anyone know who made tone rings for the 1970s ODE banjos? Were they 20 hole or no hole? Were they made by Stewart-McDonald?
DIV - Posted - 10/13/2011: 11:12:03
I believe they were Stew-Mac rings. But KIx Stewart who help found Stew-Mac worked for Ode in the beginning, if I'm not mistaken. So I would imagine that the earliest tone rings were perhaps prototypes?
Perhaps my good friend Ed Brit will chime in, he's quite an authority on this subject...
Ed? Are you around?
Scooter Muse - Posted - 10/13/2011: 12:41:44
Yep -- Ed Britt or Stanger will be in here shortly I'm sure......
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/13/2011: 17:58:20
Short answer: "We're NOT sure who cast the "Baldwin" rings in the '70s."
Chuck Ogsbury is not sure. (He was long gone.) Myron Koenig is not sure,
either -- for the same reasons.
Longer answer (with circular reasoning) to follow... ;-)
Best-
Ed Britt
mikehalloran - Posted - 10/13/2011: 23:23:21
Stew-Mac evolved from ODE. So much else is murky. Next time I see Marc Silberman, I'll ask if he knows.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/14/2011: 03:56:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Peterson
Does anyone know who made tone rings for the 1970s ODE banjos? Were they 20 hole or no hole? Were they made by Stewart-McDonald?
A few years ago, I asked Chuck Ogsbury about the production of the ODE cast parts He said
that the tonerings, flanges, and tailpieces were cast by a local-area foundry. Then the castings
were machined by a machine shop in Denver. He said that both companies were long out-of-
business.
He also said Baldwin continued to use the same sources -- at least while they were producing
banjos in Boulder. He wasn't sure after that. (They were NOT made by Stewart-MacDonald.
Stew-Mac had someone else make THEIR tonerings, initially. Doug Hutchens knows most of
that early Stew-Mac info.)
I also spoke with Myron Koenig -- Baldwin's Cincinnati 'Product Line Manager' for banjos, when
they took over production in Boulder. He agreed with Chuck's answer that, the cast metal parts
continued to be produced in the Boulder area, while he was involved -- from Mid-1966 thru Dec-
1969. That includes the first couple years of production in Arkansas. (Moved there in mid-'68.)
Myron was not sure how long Baldwin continued to use the Boulder vendors, after he left.
(Myron was NOT the factory manager. Mel Placke was the Production Manager in Boulder, I'm
not sure if Placke continued as a Production Manager in Arkansas, I believe he returned back to
Cincinnati.)
The Arkansas period is full of ups-and-downs. (Two fires, etc.) I assume they used the Boulder
area sources for a few more years -- probably until about 1975. There seems to be a major
upheaval around that time, and lots of specs were changed. The flange was redone, and the
sound holes were enlarged, at some point.
The ODE/Baldwin tone rings were designed by Chuck Ogsbury and Kix Stewart -- while Kix was
working for ODE, during the mid-'60s. The ODE rings are NOT the same design as Gibson rings.
They are lower in profile, have different cross-sections, different weights, different alloys, etc.
Chuck and Kix started from scratch. They had no interest in copying Gibson -- the way everybody
does today. (The 'number of holes' is a Gibsonesque obsession. We ODE freaks have our own
different obsessions.)
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/14/2011 04:02:53
DIV - Posted - 10/14/2011: 11:26:24
Thanks Ed.
Another amazing education for me (us)...and again, I stand corrected with egg on face!
DHutchens - Posted - 10/14/2011: 17:36:17
Stu-Mac's rings were poured locally in the Ohio/West Va area and the turning of the castings for a period were done in the factory in Athens.... Now not, but as the calendar pages do roll .......things change....
But they never did rings for Baldwin/Ode.....They were busy enough trying to get their own "world' going.. ..To which they did................. and us banjo nuts need to give credit just like the Appleites do Steve Jobs and Steve Wazionac.(sp)
If Bill and Kix hadn't took a leap of faith. ....well I would not be typing now.....
Thanks Boys
Edited by - DHutchens on 10/14/2011 17:45:46
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 10/14/2011: 21:33:03
quote:
Originally posted by DHutchens
Stu-Mac's rings were poured locally in the Ohio/West Va area and the turning of the castings for a period were done in the factory in Athens.... Now not, but as the calendar pages do roll .......things change....
.... and us banjo nuts need to give credit just like the Appleites do Steve Jobs and Steve Wazionac.(sp)
If Bill and Kix hadn't took a leap of faith. ....well I would not be typing now.....
Thanks Boys
Thanks for chiming-in Doug.
Good to know they at least finished the castings. I have a Stew-Mac flathead ring,
that I ordered back around 1972 (I think), on one of my old banjos...
I think a LOT of us wouldn't be doing a LOT of banjo-related things -- if it weren't for
Chuck Ogsbury, Kix Stewart, and Bill MacDonald.
And a few other 'pioneers' could probably go on that list, as well...
o Dave Walden, and other the ODE Crew members:
o Ray Chatfield
o Marc Silber
o Chris Battis
o (Anyone know any other members of the '60s ODE crew?)
o Tom Morgan...
o Randy Woods
o Marion Kirk
Etc.
Best-
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 10/14/2011 21:41:09
stanger - Posted - 10/14/2011: 21:41:03
An addition to Ed's good post...
I have taken apart a very early (March 1965) Ode B a couple of years ago, and I own a couple of Odes made ca. 1967-68.
The early tone ring is very heavy, and has a high inner lip- about 1/16" high, turned vertically. From there, the top of ring's face angles upward at a shallower angle to it's outside edge height. The overall height is almost identical to the later rings. While I didn't have a scale on hand to weigh the tone ring, I did have a ring that is similar in weight to a Gibson, and the two hefted very closely.
Ed &I I discussed this tone ring at the time, and we both think it is probably a prototype. The banjo's serial number is #1. Ed mentioned that Chuck numbered his prototypes, and this banjo was made before the 1965 catalog was published, so I agree- the banjo was probably one of a few that all had slightly different machining.
I also took apart the '68 B I have, and it's tone ring is also very heavy- if anything, it's slightly heavier than the #1. The tone ring's inner lip does not have the height- the angle of the face starts at the top of the rim and goes up at a steeper angle. It's overall height is identical to #1.
I gave #1 back to it's owner, but I compared the other B to my 1977 D model. The tone ring's inner angle is shallower, and the tone ring isn't as tall as the early ones. Naturally, this ring isn't as heavy as the other two, as there isn't as much metal in it.
I believe Baldwin used up every part they got from Boulder, and I tend to think that a lot of unused parts were lost in the 2 fires. If so, Baldwin had to start over to some degree. Ed and I have talked about this a lot, and I suspect that after the fires, Baldwin may have used the same foundry that cast their piano harp frames after the fires. If this is so, the bronze mix may be different, as the foundry may have used the same mix that was used for the piano harps. The foundry itself may have been owned by Baldwin, as they were making a lot of pianos then.
No records exist at all that we Ode freaks have ever discovered. Myron's excellent records are the last that are verifiable and are quite complete, but they only go to 1969.
The most interesting thing about Odes to me is though there were a lot of evolutionary changes over the years of production, none of them makes any big difference in tone. They all sound closely the same from early to middle to late.
There were other changes: in addition to making the propeller-shaped holes in the flange slightly larger as time went by, the later flanges were also heavier. The early flanges were milled thinner by a bit, probably for cosmetic reasons. The early banjos all have the then-proprietary Ode tuning pegs (Kix got the patent back, and began making them as the 5-Stars after he left Ode), and the later banjos have Shaller tuners.
All the mystery just adds to the fascination with the brand and history for me.
regards,
stanger
McUtsi - Posted - 10/15/2011: 02:06:22
Yeah...from my European perspective,the history(recorded & tell-tale) of the ODE,Stew-Mac &
OME companies has some elements of the old "greater than the sum of its parts",complete
w/ an "All American" fire brand...McUtsi
mikehalloran - Posted - 10/15/2011: 04:29:33
I have a set of those stainless steel ODE tuners if anyone needs for restoration. My blonde Pete Seeger had them and an ODE tailpiece when I got it from Mark Silber. I know many '60s Vegas had them OE but, when I popped a tuner, I found the outline of the Rotomatics it came with and installed a chrome Pat. Pend. set that I had bought in 1970 for my Kay. The tailpiece has gone to a hangout member to restore his ODE but I still have the tuners.
DHutchens - Posted - 10/17/2011: 16:35:31
Ed wrote "Good to know they at least finished the castings. I have a Stew-Mac flathead ring,
that I ordered back around 1972 (I think), on one of my old banjos... """
1972 tone ring.....that was about the time that Steve Ryan brought down a load of rings and told them the mixture and said he could no longer keep up with the amount of rings they needed!!!!!
Bill McDonald is on the hangout, Bill can you remember when this might have happened and how many of my brain cells have gone on vacation?
Doug
