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Docmhc - Posted - 09/03/2011: 06:25:44
I'm curious as to why it is that I've never seen a banjo player play a long neck banjo as a long neck. They're always capoed at the 2nd fret, effectively making it a standard size banjo. What's the point of a long neck if it's going to be played as a standard neck banjo? It's confusing to me just what the purpose of a long neck is, unless it's esthetics.
kwfolk1 - Posted - 09/03/2011: 07:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Docmhc
I'm curious as to why it is that I've never seen a banjo player play a long neck banjo as a long neck. They're always capoed at the 2nd fret, effectively making it a standard size banjo. What's the point of a long neck if it's going to be played as a standard neck banjo? It's confusing to me just what the purpose of a long neck is, unless it's esthetics.
A standard 5-string is 22-frets, where as a longneck is generally 25-frets, which means a longneck would be capoed at the 3rd fret to play in the keys of either G or C. Though I am no singer by any stretch of the imagination, I fine that I do best in the Key of B or A# (1st or 2nd fret of a longneck tuned in standard C or Double C).
Though I tend to use several other tunings, a longneck makes it easy to play in any key using either gDGBD or gCGBD by simply re-positioning the capo.
IMHO a longneck is far more versatile than a standard 22-fret banjo, especially so if one plays with a number of people who sing in KEYS other than G, C. A, and D. For instances, my favorite tunings are gCGBD & gCGCD. I like the lower C on the 4th string. I find that it allows me to play several versions of a tune using a variety of positions both up and down the neck.
Chris
wrangler - Posted - 09/03/2011: 08:06:49
You can take the capo off and play/sing in the key of F with the same tuning. That is one reason. The other is that is the banjo that Pete Seeger uses. I got a long neck for the latter reason. I also bought a 12 string guitar back in the 60's for the same reason. I started out as a "folker."
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 09/03/2011: 08:29:45
Pete Seeger chose a long neck banjo because he has a baritone voice- it was easier for him to sing in lower keys. John Hartford was also a baritone, but if I remember correctly he just tuned his standard-necked banjo lower.
Chesapeake - Posted - 09/03/2011: 09:27:17
As I recall my banjo history, I believe Seeger actually invented the longneck banjo to better suit his voice.
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 09/03/2011: 22:34:22
In his book, Seeger explained that he wanted the longer neck so he could capo to keys that he needed and still use the tunings he preferred. He used several tunings, and had a long list of other tunings in the back of his book. He may have tuned it lower, I don't recall that for sure. The whole point of the long neck, for Pete, was to use a capo. John Hartford used an extra heavy set of strings to tune lower than normal, but used a separate banjo for this. I saw Pete Seeger live several times between the sixties and the late nineties. He never carried a second banjo on stage with him, just the famous long neck, his 12 string guitar, and once a recorder. If anyone has his book, perhaps they can double check what he said about the extra length? I don't have my old copy any more.
Paul
Cryo - Posted - 09/04/2011: 01:43:10
I play my long neck without a capo frequently. Especially when using it to sing folksongs.
mainejohn - Posted - 09/04/2011: 05:22:12
With a voice range as narrow as mine the extra three frets give me a way to easily find a key that will work well with my voice. In addition, I've gotten so used to 25 frets, that I find a standard length neck to be just too confining. I had the pleasure of playing with Billy Faier about two months ago, and he is THE master of the capo-less long neck. If you ever have a chance to listen to his "Improvisation in E", in which he makes maximum use of all 25 frets, you'll hear the rich, bassy tone of open E which can only be achieved on a longneck.
mike gregory - Posted - 09/04/2011: 05:53:35
I find it a lot easier to play E on the full long neck, than to capo 4 and use C.
But, of course, having seen photos my boyhood heroes (P. Seeger and Dave Guard) with longnecks, has influenced me greatly.
Edited by - mike gregory on 09/04/2011 05:55:31
Jim E. - Posted - 09/04/2011: 07:15:03
Back in the early days of my learning to play, I thought that a long neck Seeger model banjo was the most desirable instrument for all of the reasons one usually hears from long neck owners. I went out and bought a Vega Pete Seeger model and for the next several years played it in a variety of circumstances during which I made the following discoveries: long necks are more difficult to balance when positioning a strap; tuning a long neck, and keeping it in tune, requires more effort than does a standard neck banjo (this may explain why performers such as Dave Guard quickly got rid of the 4-to-1 banjo tuners and defaced their instruments with the more precise 16-to-1 guitar-style tuners); a long neck sounds best with light gauge strings, but when uncapoed the light gauge strings tend to rattle and feel more like loose spaghetti; the occasions that warrant playing in E or F (out of G tuning) were, for me, few and far between; the banjo's volume in group settings was, almost always, insufficient; due to the length of the bracket hooks, it was painful to play the instrument while sitting. After putting up with these shortcomings for a couple of years, I sold the banjo and bought my first Mastertone. I still kick myself (well, a little anyway) for not having done that sooner.
Long neck banjos certainly have their devotees and there are, even today, some great players who favor them exclusively. I also think that, for many, the aesthetics of the instrument and its connection with the prominent players of the commercial folk era, are among the reasons the long neck banjo retains a modest popularity. That said though, I have found there to be one fail safe mantra that will leavens my lack of understanding of such devotion: If you like it, and if it sounds good to you, it IS good.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 09/04/2011: 07:59:17
I play it uncapoed when called for. Here are some examples:
Chesapeake - Posted - 09/04/2011: 09:45:02
Blues banjo! Love it!
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/04/2011: 10:49:55
Having lower tones on the banjo does not necessarily mean you have a lower voice. Pete Seeger, Michael Cooney, Eric Darling, and Hedy West all have or had relatively high voices. Yes the long neck was invented to play in more keys, but Pete didn't necessarily sing in a lower pitch when playing those keys - at some point you jump your voice UP when moving down through keys. Pete describes his voice as a "Whiskey Tenor" which is pretty much the same as an Irish Tenor. It is the highest classification of male voice below the counter-tenor which was originally a castradi-tenor.
banjotom2 - Posted - 09/05/2011: 18:33:00
I worked in a music store for many years that specialized in acoustic instruments...
One day, we got a used Gibson long neck...
It's a thing that draws your attention if you play the banjo...
A friend came in and bought it...
Dang! I was a startin' to hanker for one...
Then another one came in... it had a real goat skin head, a long home made neck (well-done neck)...
The pot was from an old Bacon banjo from the 30s...
That sucker RANG!
It had sustain that a plugged-in Les Paul would envy and was a joy to play...
I'm a smaller man... and I would have to admit that it did make my left shoulder a little fatigued if I played too long...
And because I liked the sound so well... I played it for many hours on the weekends...
I was driving a truck route at the time, and spent a lot of time out on the road... but home every weekend...
And when I walked in the door... I'd get food a cookin'.. a cold Guinness Extra Stout to start working on... AND that long neck banjo!
I think the goat skin head added to the effect...
I still have the banjo... got it in the middle of a re-string and replacing some parts... but I still love it and am now looking forward more than ever to getting it playing again...
Tom
banjotom2.com
Edited by - banjotom2 on 09/05/2011 18:35:20
JonT - Posted - 09/06/2011: 07:42:52
I agree with Jim that part of the appeal of a longneck involves the aesthetics of the instrument, and another part of the appeal involves the cultural/historical aspects. And yeah, I find that balancing my longneck is more difficult than balancing any of my other banjos.
But for me, being able to play open in the lower keys is very valuable. Like several others here, I play mine (a hybrid with a '22 Tubaphone pot and a Bart Reiter neck) without a capo, and/or with the capo set at the first and second fret, depending on the key of the tune involved. To my ears, at least, the thing has a growl like nothing else down there in the lower keys. I keep medium-gauge strings on mine and find that they deliver nice, rich, fat tone while lights deliver thinner tone. I suspect that string gauge is a bit of player preference, and also depends on how well the individual instrument accepts a given gauge.
But that's just me. As always, your results may vary.
gansen - Posted - 09/06/2011: 10:20:57
I thought the reason for a long neck was to be able to polk the bass player from the other side of the stage when they aren't playing fast enough.
kwfolk1 - Posted - 09/06/2011: 11:36:50
quote:
Originally posted by gansen
I thought the reason for a long neck was to be able to polk the bass player from the other side of the stage when they aren't playing fast enough.
I never thought of that particular use for my long necks, but I'll keep in mind.
Thanks for the suggestion, ganse!
Chris
mikehalloran - Posted - 09/06/2011: 22:50:08
>a long neck sounds best with light gauge strings,<
I disagree and string mine with a heavy string and wound 3rd. To each his/her own!
>Then another one came in... it had a real goat skin head, a long home made neck (well-done neck)...
The pot was from an old Bacon banjo from the 30s..<
Tom - Is it a home made neck or a Bacon neck with a graft in the lower positions? If you shine a light on the headstock, can you read Bacon under paint - and is the paint black? If so, I can tell you about those.
Helix - Posted - 09/10/2011: 06:27:31
I always had trouble getting longnecks out of my system.
I played in The Minutemen, we cannibalized a Harmony with a bakelite rim, we made our rim out of masonite, no deader rim there be matey.
The neck was a 2x4 with HO railroad track for frets, we did the math by hand ourselves, we used one spike like Pete said, red cover and all.
Then we ordered a neck for $30 from Stamm in Oregon, Illinois, it was a paddle head, the neck is still playing and straight. (It has a Helix rim on it.) Here it is with its 13" resonator next to a current Gold Tone Flathead longneck.
I like spikes at 7,8,9,10,12,14.
I jam with the bluegrass monsters. When they go North for F, I go South and get the same licks in G fingering. The only American instrument with two full octaves to play with.
I love building longnecks, that's why I innovated the bamboo, because the sound was there. Longnecks growl.
( ))===='=== ::}
Joe the banjo guy - Posted - 09/10/2011: 07:19:56
Just curious. So what is the normal tuning for the long neck? Is it an open F?
Fultoncreek - Posted - 09/10/2011: 11:18:11
I've usually owned a longneck in addition to another banjo over the last umpteen years. I don't play it much, because I find that it wears out my back and shoulder (there's a reason St. Pete hooks his strap to the side of his banjo neck--balance!). What I find them excellent for is leading group songs. In picking keys for groups in churches, camps, etc, I try to keep the highest note of a song at about a C. That's because an arranger friend told me that a C is about as high as I should expect out of a typical group of not-very-frequent singers, and he was right. Being in the key of F means that a good many songs that folks (myself included) would normally do in G, I do with groups in F. Because I found that I almost never would use my LN down in E, I had a neck made with only two extra low frets, with about a 28" scale. It still bugs my shoulder, but it's much easier to work with than the commercially available LNs I've owned, and I've owned a couple good ones.
Fultoncreek - Posted - 09/10/2011: 11:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by Joe the banjo guy
Just curious. So what is the normal tuning for the long neck? Is it an open F?
Typically Pete Seeger type longnecks are tuned to E, so that capo'd at the third fret your banjo is in G. The fingerboard markers are set up so that with the capo at the 3rd fret, they are arranged like those on a standard banjo.
twayneking - Posted - 09/11/2011: 21:51:46
Why a longneck? Because it's three frets longer than the other banjo player's banjo.
Tom
Helix - Posted - 09/12/2011: 11:33:35
There IS such a thing as neck envy, it makes people giggle.
Normally all the way open without the capo gives E, with drop C tuning you get A down there, so E/A, F/Bb, F#/B, then capo on the 3rd fret gives the G/C.
Also by using more spikes I don't always have to use the root note for the 5th string, you can tune to the 4th and 5th of the root as well.
Gary Blanchard - Posted - 09/13/2011: 08:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by Prof
This topic reminds me of this scene from Spinal Tap:
youtube.com/watch?v=UeOXsA8sp_E
Interesting idea. The analogy falls short, though. The extra three frets on a long-neck do allow me to take advantage of the open tunings of a banjo while suiting my singing voice. The long-neck isn't a general purpose banjo, perhaps, but for those who own one it fills a need.
Prof - Posted - 09/13/2011: 09:22:41
I know it's not perfect, but it just reminded me of (IMO) one of the funnier parts of that movie.
BobLusk - Posted - 09/24/2011: 08:35:07
"These go to eleven" I love it!
cbcarlisle - Posted - 09/24/2011: 09:25:41
"Why a long neck?"
I can't believe, after all this time, no one else has used the old joke:
A giraffe walks into a bar; the bartender says, "Why such a long neck?"
Cryo - Posted - 10/23/2011: 02:19:31
I was playing my long neck at a restaurant the other day. Got a lot of comments about Pete Seeger although I wasn't playing any of his songs.
Riley Stokes - Posted - 10/24/2011: 18:40:16
It's the balladeer's banjo. You wouldn't choose it for playing the one-millionth version of "Sally Ann" or "Orange Blossom Special." Backing up the human voice is one of the banjo's most noble roles, maybe THE most noble role. I'm glad to see the longneck is still around, alive and well.
Bruce
calypsojimmy - Posted - 11/09/2011: 08:49:50
I like longnecks for multiple reasons;
(a) [extra 3 frets] plus [capo] means that I can get to pretty much any key on the 12-tone chromatic scale by playing in either a G-tuning or a C-tuning chords... when I am accompanying someone else, or myself for that matter. Very practical.
(b) To my ear, every time I put a capo on either a guitar or banjo, the instrument sounds different, and it sounds different with the capo at different frets. i.e. from a tonal perspective, my longneck is a bit like having 7-8 different banjos all rolled into one.
(c) Again, from a tonal angle: The extra length gives you that growl-ly low tone when played open, or with the capo on frets 1 or 2. It's a characteristic tone, and if you like it, then that's how you get it.
(d) For me, they frail well, and they pick well... I actually like bluegrass style picking on an open back long neck.
(e) You can defend yourself with a longneck. With a heavy pot and a long neck, you can generate massive torque if you need it for self-defense.
kwfolk1 - Posted - 11/09/2011: 12:50:46
quote:
Originally posted by calypsojimmy
I like longnecks for multiple reasons;
(a) [extra 3 frets] plus [capo] means that I can get to pretty much any key on the 12-tone chromatic scale by playing in either a G-tuning or a C-tuning chords... when I am accompanying someone else, or myself for that matter. Very practical.
(b) To my ear, every time I put a capo on either a guitar or banjo, the instrument sounds different, and it sounds different with the capo at different frets. i.e. from a tonal perspective, my longneck is a bit like having 7-8 different banjos all rolled into one.
(c) Again, from a tonal angle: The extra length gives you that growl-ly low tone when played open, or with the capo on frets 1 or 2. It's a characteristic tone, and if you like it, then that's how you get it.
(d) For me, they frail well, and they pick well... I actually like bluegrass style picking on an open back long neck.
(e) You can defend yourself with a longneck. With a heavy pot and a long neck, you can generate massive torque if you need it for self-defense.
A longneck can also be used to take up a collections after playing spirituals.
calypsojimmy - Posted - 11/09/2011: 14:12:22
quote:
Originally posted by kwfolk1
quote:
Originally posted by calypsojimmy
I like longnecks for multiple reasons;
(a) [extra 3 frets] plus [capo] means that I can get to pretty much any key on the 12-tone chromatic scale by playing in either a G-tuning or a C-tuning chords... when I am accompanying someone else, or myself for that matter. Very practical.
(b) To my ear, every time I put a capo on either a guitar or banjo, the instrument sounds different, and it sounds different with the capo at different frets. i.e. from a tonal perspective, my longneck is a bit like having 7-8 different banjos all rolled into one.
(c) Again, from a tonal angle: The extra length gives you that growl-ly low tone when played open, or with the capo on frets 1 or 2. It's a characteristic tone, and if you like it, then that's how you get it.
(d) For me, they frail well, and they pick well... I actually like bluegrass style picking on an open back long neck.
(e) You can defend yourself with a longneck. With a heavy pot and a long neck, you can generate massive torque if you need it for self-defense.
A longneck can also be used to take up a collections after playing spirituals.
That's a great idea, one that I've never considered. Plus, when people toss $$ in, it'd be a lot louder. I know my grandchildren would be all over a 5-string collection basket. With resonators, we could have a slot cut in. Thanks for response!
