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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/214175
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Earls 5 - Posted - 08/24/2011: 14:11:46
Brazilian rosewood no doubt. This could slow things down a little more - ya think?
BanjoLink - Posted - 08/24/2011: 15:05:19
They were raided in Nashville in 2009. It seems like they would have gotten their act together since then or if indeed they were in complience then, I would call this harassment. Either way someone is pretty incompetent here either Uncle Sam or Gibson - possibly both!
gansen - Posted - 08/24/2011: 15:08:33
Very interesting. I remember the raid about a year ago and wondered what came of the whole thing as after the raid there was nothing more said about fines or a trial. Don't look good now. So the big question is are they going to track down all the contraban guitars? Are they going to knock on my door looking for illegal wood? I like illegal wood better than pre-raid. Has a nice ring.
mountiepicker - Posted - 08/24/2011: 15:45:16
Here's a question...How do you market illegal wood? Interesting to see exactly how you go about offering illegal wood when you are as big as gibson is.
Jason
lbartosh - Posted - 08/24/2011: 16:57:06
If only Gibson would decide to sell out to a large Chinese owned corporation they could probably import anything they wanted and nothing would be questioned. What a joke when our government is run like it is! I hope Gibson is found innocent of any wrong doing and can sue the prosecutors for billions
RB00 - Posted - 08/24/2011: 18:09:22
Saw this on the Nashville news this eveining. There was a quick mention about a fast approaching trial date or something that might have spurred this. Also an excerpt of an interview with Henry the chairman that was kind of strange.
Gymbal31 - Posted - 08/24/2011: 19:44:57
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Rogers
Hid a political comment and a post that quoted it.
I think you missed one.
gansen - Posted - 08/24/2011: 20:03:36
I have friends that do wood working and we were talking about illegal woods a few weeks ago. It sounds like Mahogany, a fairly common wood is all imported and the country that imports it didn't apply for a permit or something silly. I'm sure I don't have all the facts right but that was the gist of it. In any case the wood isn't illegal to have it's just now not allowed to be imported. So if you already had a supply you were fine to use and sell the product. But once you ran out of the wood you couldn't have more shipped in. As much as we may like Gibson and be proud of the status of Gibson's being American made it doesn't mean they didn't break the law - not that I know they did or didn't. One thing that makes America such a great country is we do have high moral standards. So yes if some other country imported a guitar made of the same wood produced by enslaved starving children we wouldn't make as big of stink about it as when an American company who knows better does it. If you did it, shame on you Gibson. Umm, I still think you're great and kinda dig the outlaw story so what models have the illegal wood, I would like one of them.
grich - Posted - 08/24/2011: 22:06:32
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If they did sell out to a large Chinese corp. they still couldn't get around the new CITES/Lacey act laws . You wouldn't believe how much paperwork we now have to do in order to import our guitars and banjos into the US .... it's an industry nightmare ! Below is a great thread about these new laws ...
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Edited by - grich on 08/24/2011 22:07:02
SWCooper - Posted - 08/25/2011: 05:11:01
Bumping this because it is really, really important and not enough of us at the consumer end of the food chain know about it. My husband has been raving and howling about the CITES/Lacey Act (he's a music trade journalist). It's going to harass some makers right out of business, and not just small makers.
erikforgod - Posted - 08/25/2011: 05:41:48
quote:
Originally posted by Earls 5
Brazilian rosewood no doubt. This could slow things down a little more - ya think?
Alot of the so called "Brazilian Rosewood" or "Jacaranda" as its called down here in south america is being cut from stump wood ( which is legal ) or being harvested and shipped from Paraguay, N Argentina and Bolivia...where there are no export restrictions...if anything they were definately after the Madagascar Rosewood.
mtnpckr - Posted - 08/25/2011: 06:47:25
My post was not political, merely humorous!
No party or person or political ideology was mentioned.
RB00 - Posted - 08/25/2011: 06:48:54
The US Attorney associated with the Gibson case is Jerry Martin. Martin??? You don't suppose......................................? Certainly just a coincidence but a good laugh anyway.
NYCJazz - Posted - 08/25/2011: 07:48:16
Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans (ASIA)
That is kind of an unfortunate acronym!
I gotta check out the regulations... I'm hoping I won't be forced to defend my rosewood Silver Bell against the authorities! It was made in the 20's, so I'm figuring it will be "grandfathered in"!
banjodawg - Posted - 08/25/2011: 07:52:16
Do we have a color scheme to depict the threat to the nation from one kind of rosewood vs. another kind?
Steven M - Posted - 08/25/2011: 08:05:00
quote:
Originally posted by banjodawg
Do we have a color scheme to depict the threat to the nation from one kind of rosewood vs. another kind?
I think you are totally missing the point.
A rather self centered view point I am afraid.
SWCooper - Posted - 08/25/2011: 08:25:13
It's one thing to insist that raw wood be reliably sourced, but they ARE talking about extending it to vintage instruments at the point of resale and instruments that come in for repair.
Earls 5 - Posted - 08/25/2011: 10:18:22
if it moves tax it, if it keeps moving regulate it...sound familiar?
Fishrrman - Posted - 08/25/2011: 15:59:31
"It's one thing to insist that raw wood be reliably sourced, but they ARE talking about extending it to vintage instruments at the point of resale and instruments that come in for repair."
Insanity. This is environmental regulation in extremis.
Imagine taking your prewar (or even postwar, up to 1969) Martin in for some work, and having government agents seize it as being "illegal" under modern environmental laws?
Or... having your prewar Gibson banjo seized as being illegal because it has a Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard?
(No political parties mentioned in the above posting)
- John
Edited by - Fishrrman on 08/25/2011 16:00:49
SWCooper - Posted - 08/25/2011: 16:31:39
My husband is about to write an article about this for the trade press. It's his understanding that the regulations will be used to impact the used and repair markets, but he hasn't started research in earnest yet. Both CITES and the Lacey Act are laws that have been on the books for a long time, but I guess it's the scope that's being widened or the documentation burden that's being increased.
Anyway, when I learn more -- or if I learn differently -- I'll be sure to pass it on.
grich - Posted - 08/25/2011: 17:14:05
I was at the Healdsberg guitar festival a few weeks ago and I heard that PRS guitars is no longer going to use pearl on their standard models ..... how crazy is that !
tdennis - Posted - 08/25/2011: 17:57:17
I wouldn't panic yet. Even the most preposterous & Draconian laws "grandfather in" prior situations. The courts can barely keep up w/ the present , let alone reach into the distant past. The outcry would be tremendous. The law would look foolish.
Earls 5 - Posted - 08/25/2011: 19:42:52
I have seen no proof yet of "the man" being concerned with looking foolish....
bobbybanjo - Posted - 08/25/2011: 21:07:57
quote:
Originally posted by SWCooper
My husband is about to write an article about this for the trade press. It's his understanding that the regulations will be used to impact the used and repair markets, but he hasn't started research in earnest yet. Both CITES and the Lacey Act are laws that have been on the books for a long time, but I guess it's the scope that's being widened or the documentation burden that's being increased.
Anyway, when I learn more -- or if I learn differently -- I'll be sure to pass it on.
The Lacy act is going to cause all of us a lot of trouble. Here is an email from a friend that is self explanatory:
As a musical instrument dealer and luthier (a trade with over 350 years of
formal history) having over 45 years continuous experience in the trade,
it is my opinion that compliance with the Lacey act as amended to include
plants and plant derivatives is both impossible and legally unreasonable
for the following reasons:
Not every plant (nor animal) form on earth has been botanically classified
by science. In the case of myriad rainforest products which have been
historically used to construct musical instruments, the amounts of
unclassified materials, both pure and hybridized, are significant.
Therefore, on this basis alone, compliance with federal form PPQ 505 is
IMPOSSIBLE.
CORRECT identification to the level of genus and species as required on
APHIS form PPQ 505 is UNREASONABLE for consumers, dealers and
manufacturers alike. This type of botanical identification is something
vigorously contested by trained specialist botanists. It is legally and
ethically unreasonable to require this of non specialists. I have sent
wood samples to the U. S. Forest Products laboratory in Madison Wisconsin
for identification, and they have NEVER gotten the identification of any
of my samples to the level of genus and species. To correctly identify
old plant (or animal) materials in FINISHED products to the level of genus
and species as required by Lacey is an impossible task, even for trained
experts. I highly doubt that any of the legislators who voted for this
amendment could correctly identify by genus and species any of the plant
nor animal materials of the clothing they are wearing, not to mention
provide the countries of origin of each and prove that they were legally
harvested, as required by Lacey. Nor could the retailers who sold this
clothing, and nor could the manufacturers who produced it.
Lacey makes no exemption provision for old or antique objects or
materials. In America alone there are MILLIONS of old or antique musical
instruments currently in circulation used by consumers and professionals
alike for which neither the provenance nor the correct identification of
the plant and animal material contained within can be ascertained, as
required by APHIS form PPQ 505. Nearly every string orchestral player in
the world today is using an instrument which is more than 50 years old
(many of the violin family being several CENTURIES old!) for which no
legal chain of custody exists to prove the legality of the materials
(some now CITES listed) at the time of harvest. From guitars to violins
and even wind instruments with ivory and pearl appointments, NONE of these
instruments can be PROVEN to have been made of legally harvested
materials, so if challenged by border control agents over this issue, an
owner risks confiscation or even prosecution for making a false statement
on their PPQ 505. For example, how many members of the U.S. Marine Corps
band can correctly identify the genus and species of the pearl trim on
their wind instrument valve keys, identify the countries of origin, AND
prove it was harvested legally?
Importing and exporting are now impossible due to multiple permits
necessary from separate government agencies, such as F&WS, and APHIS. The
marketplace cannot operate with six month and longer delays affecting
otherwise simple commercial exports/imports, with additional permit costs
adding minimally several hundred dollars of cost to the transaction.
Currently there is no de minimis exemption, so to export a $5 set of pearl
dots for guitar fingerboard inlays requires over $200 in permits and
formal export documentation! Suppliers to the industry cannot operate
under these ridiculous business killing rules. Consumers will not bear
these costs, nor delays.
Making the REPAIR or RESTORATION of old and antique items using original
materials illegal, AND subsequently denying pre-CITES legal status to
items which have been so repaired is incomprehensible. When the White
House Steinway piano (serial No 300,000, made in 1937 with ivory key tops
and Honduras Mahogany casework) in the East Room was RESTORED in 1992, it
was no longer pre-CITES, a situation that would apply to millions of other
old pianos still privately owned in the USA, not to mention many millions
of OTHER valuable antiques which need or may need repair in the future.
If Senator John Kerry were to ask me to restore his Brazilian rosewood
guitar using original materials, it would not be legal for me to do so,
nor would it be legal for him to ship it to me interstate without required
permits and marking of the package. How are we to explain to the public
that the White House has circumvented Lacey and CITES but ordinary
citizens and businesses cannot?
The most egregious aspect of Lacey is that it requires individuals (and
businesses) to make sworn statements of “fact” which are impossible to
accurately and correctly comply with, and then holds these same entities
liable for prosecution if the statements are disputed by agents of the
U.S. Government, effectively requiring the accused to prove their
innocence, in direct contradiction of the U. S. Constitution.
SWCooper - Posted - 08/26/2011: 03:24:13
Oh, wow. Sounds like the Gibson thing is even more idiotic than we thought. My husband just got this press release from Gibson:
PRESS RELEASE FROM GIBSON GUITAR CORP. ----- August 25, 2011
Gov’t says wood is illegal if U.S. workers produce it
The Justice department bullies Gibson without filing charges
The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.
On August 24, 2011, around 8:45 a.m. CDT, agents for the federal government executed four search warrants on Gibson’s facilities in Nashville and Memphis and seized several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. Gibson had to cease its manufacturing operations and send workers home for the day, while armed agents executed the search warrants. Gibson has fully cooperated with the execution of the search warrants.
This is the second time that federal agents have raided Gibson facilities and disrupted production – this time causing lost productivity and sales.
The wood the Government seized on August 24 is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier and is FSC Controlled, meaning that the wood complies with the standards of the Forest Stewardship Council, which is an industry-recognized and independent, not-for-profit organization established to promote responsible management of the world’s forests. FSC Controlled Wood standards require, among other things, that the wood not be illegally harvested and not be harvested in violation of traditional and civil rights. See www.fsc.org for more information. Gibson has a long history of supporting sustainable and responsible sources of wood and has worked diligently with entities such as the Rainforest Alliance and Greenpeace to secure FSC certified supplies. The wood seized on August 24 satisfied FSC standards.
In 2009, more than a dozen agents with automatic weapons invaded the Gibson factory in Nashville. The Government seized guitars and a substantial amount of ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar. To date, 1 year and 9 months later, criminal charges have NOT been filed, yet the Government still holds Gibson’s property. Gibson has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated. Gibson is attempting to have its property returned in a civil proceeding that is pending in federal court.
The Justice Department has asked the judge to stop the court case indefinitely.
Since 2009, Gibson has fully cooperated with the Government’s investigation of wood and has provided substantial documentation regarding Gibson’s wood-buying activities over the years. Yet, the Federal Government raided Gibson’s facilities on August 24, 2011, without warning or communication of any kind. Had the Government simply communicated with Gibson, Gibson would have cooperated without having to stop its production and send workers home.
The U.S. Lacey Act does not directly address conservation issues but is about obeying all laws of the countries from which wood products are procured. This law reads that you are guilty if you did not observe a law even though you had no knowledge of that law in a foreign country. The U.S. Lacey Act is only applicable when a foreign law has been violated.
Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of ANY wrong doing. We will fight aggressively to prove our innocence.
Earls 5 - Posted - 08/26/2011: 03:31:14
Another case of "the MAN" sticking it to " the man" !
Edited by - Earls 5 on 08/26/2011 03:32:12
grich - Posted - 08/26/2011: 03:47:14
Checkout Henry with the media !
youtube.com/watch?v=H5No0Sk9NI...=youtu.be
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/26/2011: 04:23:11
I listened to the 28 minute interview and it was very interesting and also very scary. It sounds like big brother being a thug and enforcing union agendas.
It is scary because it implies how the government can come into each of our lives with no justification or accountability.
Ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 08/26/2011 04:23:48
lazyarcher - Posted - 08/26/2011: 05:50:15
Apparently no illegal wood was found, but a large supply of these were discovered.....
Earls 5 - Posted - 08/26/2011: 05:51:57
An uprising of musicians could occur from such extreme laws and regulations. This will most certainly affect many of us here at some stage
in the not so distant future. If all these countries make it so much trouble and expense to buy these wood products, it will most likely affect thier economys negatively as well. Abuse of power or overkill in regulation? Or both? Is it really about the enviroment or money?
SWCooper - Posted - 08/26/2011: 06:00:01
You wait till the first international concert violinist has a million dollar Stradivarius confiscated at the airport.
Just kidding; I'm guessing they'll have the survival instinct not to pick on people who can punch back hard. Though I bet Henry will give them a run for their money.
SWCooper - Posted - 08/26/2011: 06:04:02
The story has now made Drudge, who links to a Wall Street Journal article that fleshes it out some more. From the article:
Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.
There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.
Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.
Edited by - SWCooper on 08/26/2011 06:06:52
bobbybanjo - Posted - 08/26/2011: 06:31:51
quote:
Originally posted by SWCooper
But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.
Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.
TWO DOZEN AGENTS/
I know that people want to create jobs but this is absolutely ridiculous.
peewee - Posted - 08/26/2011: 07:45:32
Yes. This type of enforcement seems really over the top. Hopefully when the newness wears off this law, cooler heads in the law enforcement community will prevail. I can understand not wanting to import animals or animal products from endangered species, but Wood?
Seems to me that as long as the exporting country sends it to the US while complying with their laws, going thru their customs & screening process for exports, then once it gets here it should be legal as long as their is not a moratorium against said country. Where is my thinking flawed?
And having to prove Chain of Custody on wood, ivory, etc. that has been In Country for untold years just seems crazy.
Darcy - Posted - 08/26/2011: 07:54:21
This looks like it may be a game-changer in regards to the production and selling of musical instruments. I know if I was going into the U.S. with an instrument, I would be VERY careful what I take across the border. This could also potentially impact instruments crossing the border for sale. This could greatly impact businesses in Canada when instruments are shipped across the border... if those instruments are made.
This could be a new era of musical instruments. Pre-Gibson raid instruments and post-Gibson raid instruments.
This will be interesting to see how this story concludes.
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:08:46
I would think that given the amount of drugs and guns that cross the border, the FBI could have focused their efforts in an area that posed a more direct threat to the safety of the citizenry. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't a lot of people shooting up sawdust or gangs of people clubbing each other to death with blocks of rosewood.
BTuno - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:10:28
This discussion seems like a lot of hear-say, frosted with politics so far. It would be nice to find a factual account, with rationale from both perspectives, so that inquiring minds could interpret the situation more objectively. In a perfect world, such regulations are needed to protect resources so that there is a sustainable source of materials, balanced with reasonable and rational enforcement. I would like my grandchildren to be able to enjoy beautifully inlaid rosewood and mahogany instruments, as I do now. But neither do I approve of unreasonable search and seisure. I don't know all of the facts and arguments yet, and await better analysis before before forming a hard opinion.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:15:39
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The Lacey Act combats trafficking in “illegal” wildlife, fish, and plants. The 2008 Farm Bill (the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008), effective May 22, 2008, amended the Lacey Act by expanding its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products. The Lacey Act now, among other things, makes it unlawful, beginning December 15, 2008, to import certain plants and plant products without an import declaration. This page will serve as a clearinghouse for all information related to the implementation of the Lacey Act declaration requirement and will be updated promptly as new information becomes available.
How does this law go from tracking "illegal" wildlife, fish, and plants to declaring that Indian laws requiring what finish work must be done by local laborers to wood for it to be exported trump our import laws? And how does our government spend this much money, time, and resources attacking and harassing its own citizens.
Maybe some Gibson playing musicians will write a song about this and help it get out in the public.
Ken
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:19:30
quote:
Originally posted by BTuno
This discussion seems like a lot of hear-say, frosted with politics so far. It would be nice to find a factual account, with rationale from both perspectives, so that inquiring minds could interpret the situation more objectively. In a perfect world, such regulations are needed to protect resources so that there is a sustainable source of materials, balanced with reasonable and rational enforcement. I would like my grandchildren to be able to enjoy beautifully inlaid rosewood and mahogany instruments, as I do now. But neither do I approve of unreasonable search and seisure. I don't know all of the facts and arguments yet, and await better analysis before before forming a hard opinion.
Listen to Henry's interview. This has nothing to do with environmental issues. It has to do with India declaring their workers must work the wood and not USA workers. however Indiana laws do not prohibit exporting this wood in the unworked state. Prior to bringing this wood in, Gibson complied with all the required paperwork. Further Gibson has not been fully informed of their violation and property has been confiscated. This sounds too unreal to be true.
Ken
rommy - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:36:39
Thanks to those of you who have posted some of these additional articles regarding CITES and the Lacey act. Very interesting stuff...and just some of many well intentioned laws that will be used to restrict your freedom. ( well intentioned is a nice way to say bull$#!t ).
We can make great instruments from domestic woods but living in a time when the federal government can cofiscate your legally obtained personal property and hold it indefinitely without legal charges is a crisis for a country founded on principles of Freedom. It's hard work to push back.
I'll stop before I get too political but the motorcycle industry is also engaged in a similar situation. The Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act of 2008 has made it illegal to sell products desigend for children under the age of 12 that contain lead. This temproarily shut down the sell of youth motorcycles and ATVs ( ie, batteries contain lead ), but through the act of lobby groups such as the AMA, the Consumer Product Safety Commision decided to delay enforcement. We may have to organize the same lobbying activity by luthiers and musicians.
Earls 5 - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
quote:
Originally posted by BTuno
This discussion seems like a lot of hear-say, frosted with politics so far. It would be nice to find a factual account, with rationale from both perspectives, so that inquiring minds could interpret the situation more objectively. In a perfect world, such regulations are needed to protect resources so that there is a sustainable source of materials, balanced with reasonable and rational enforcement. I would like my grandchildren to be able to enjoy beautifully inlaid rosewood and mahogany instruments, as I do now. But neither do I approve of unreasonable search and seisure. I don't know all of the facts and arguments yet, and await better analysis before before forming a hard opinion.
Listen to Henry's interview. This has nothing to do with environmental issues. It has to do with India declaring their workers must work the wood and not USA workers. however Indiana laws do not prohibit exporting this wood in the unworked state. Prior to bringing this wood in, Gibson complied with all the required paperwork. Further Gibson has not been fully informed of their violation and property has been confiscated.
[ This sounds too unreal to be true.]
Ken
oh it is as real as Henry's need for a hair piece !
P.S. - I just love beating Grich to the punch
SWCooper - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:42:42
It doesn't get much more orthodox than the Wall Street Journal, I'd say.
USELESSWALI - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:44:26
r.l. givens new this was about he made his mandolins entirley out of north american woods maple and engelman spruce
SWCooper - Posted - 08/26/2011: 08:51:35
Any pearl, ivory or bone on 'em, Wali?
It's not just what they're made of, it's how you can prove what they're made of and where it came from.
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