Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/18/2011:  21:35:34

Despite that fact that I've been listening to old time music for over 40 years, when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention.

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

chip arnold - Posted - 08/18/2011:  21:57:45

you're not missing anything. you're right, it seems as though most folks that are into old time music, treat fiddle tunes as the alpha and omega of old time music. true, there are countless fiddle tunes out there but there are other things too. songs are nearly a lost dimension of old time. and the wealth of banjo tunes goes relatively unnoticed even by banjo pickers.
still, at every festival jams and individual players can be found that do focus on things other than fiddle tunes. so keep playing the other stuff and keep introducing others to songs, banjo tunes and so forth.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/18/2011:  22:16:26

You just aren't into fiddle tunes - and yes they all sound alike to those of us who are into them too. It is like going in for higher education. You study a narrow field, that just keeps getting narrower. You get to know more and more about less and less. When you know everything about nothing - you've made it, man. Top of the world, ma.

To be a bit more serious - although, how anyone can take music too seriously is also a valid question - OT is in many ways more about who you are playing with, rather than what you are playing. It is band music. It is jam music that is more varied than the 12 bar blues in G. It is about getting together with people who have more or less skill, and enjoying tunes together despite the differences in ability, talent or ambition.

It is also a community. At this point my wife and I are retired, andwe have a pretty busy social life compared to her sister and husband, or my brother and wife. They play no music, and rarely see others in a social setting. Since we live in a retirement area, we are always gaining new Old Time people who move here to live out those oft mentioned "Golden Years. We have to keep a careful social calendar and our friends do too. We are pretty busy for over 65s who don't live in shuffleboard retirement villages.

Most of us do some vocal music too - folk and OT in general. Some of us started playing only a few years ago - after becoming "empty nesters". OT isn't just music, it is pot luck dinners for many of us, or dancing for others. It is three women (or men) or a mixed group bound together originally only by all playing OTM going out to lunch or movies together. It is about people building a social circle not based on Bridge, Mah Jong, Bowling, spouse swapping, hunting, or bus tours of wineries.

John Gribble - Posted - 08/18/2011:  22:56:42

Marc, I have to admit I'm with you. I do play some fiddle tunes on the banjo, but generally prefer songs, whether or not I sing them aloud. They just seem to offer more space for self-expression. 

I guess I should add that I'm not really a jammer. I enjoy playing with others on occasion, but it isn't a big part of my playing these days. 

Edited by - John Gribble on 08/18/2011 22:58:30

banjoak - Posted - 08/18/2011:  23:50:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Gribble

Marc, I have to admit I'm with you. I do play some fiddle tunes on the banjo, but generally prefer songs, whether or not I sing them aloud. They just seem to offer more space for self-expression. 

I guess I should add that I'm not really a jammer. I enjoy playing with others on occasion, but it isn't a big part of my playing these days. 

---

A lot of folks like to jam with other folks, and includes lot's of fiddle players. The reason lot's fiddle players play fiddle is to play fiddle tunes. These folks also like the format of playing hetrophonically as a group, as opposed to the BG format of breaks.

I disagree with statement that songs offer more space for self-expression. For myself I find fiddle tunes can offer lots of room for self expression, melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Despite that fact that I've been listening to old time music for over 40 years, when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention.

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

---

As far as them sounding the same, like most things, when you are unfamiliar with them, they tend to sound the same. What you are missing, is based on your expectations of certain qualities of music, which is based on what you like, and the other music (fiddle tunes) does not have; it has some other qualities (which might not be important to you). So for many folks, fiddle tunes meets their expectations of all these other qualities, so yes, it is the all and end all to them.

But it isn't a competition, folks like what they like.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/19/2011:  05:27:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoak



...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Despite that fact that I've been listening to old time music for over 40 years, when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention.

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

---

 

As far as them sounding the same, like most things, when you are unfamiliar with them, they tend to sound the same. What you are missing, is based on your expectations of certain qualities of music, which is based on what you like, and the other music (fiddle tunes) does not have; it has some other qualities (which might not be important to you). So for many folks, fiddle tunes meets their expectations of all these other qualities, so yes, it is the all and end all to them.

But it isn't a competition, folks like what they like.

 

---

I asked what it is that I'm missing here. In other words, I'd like to discover what there is in fiddle tunes that makes them appealing that I am unaware of? Having listened to enormous quantities of Old Time music over more than 40 years, I'm not unfamiliar with fiddle tunes at all - so I don't think I can simply chalk it up to unfamiliarity with the idiom, as you suggest.

You said, of fiddle tune music that "it has some other qualities (which might not be important to you). So for many folks, fiddle tunes meets their expectations of all these other qualities, so yes, it is the all and end all to them."

My original question is essentially asking what those qualities are. Unfortunately, you do not describe or define them here at all.

I'm not trying to set up a competition here. I'm trying to understand why the banjo repertoire is so overwhelmingly limited to this one narrow slice. Frankly, this narrow focus has come as a surprise to me when engaging with the online banjo world. So I'm trying to understand its appeal.

MarkRB - Posted - 08/19/2011:  05:38:22

I like what Oldwoodchuck says about knowing less as you know more, I feel that way about painting too, after nearly fourty years of painting I feel i know so much less then I did years ago. I am in the same boat as Marc (hope it doesn't sink) as I listen to a lot of the 'oldtime' it sounds much the same (bluegrass is worse). Marc asks about defining the qualities that make one piece different then another (I think that is what he is asking). Can it be defines or described?

slabounty - Posted - 08/19/2011:  05:41:41

If you've been listening to it for 30-40 years and it still sounds the same, then you're probably not missing anything. Everyone is going to have genres of music, literature, art etc. that they're attracted to and some that they aren't. Apparently, old-time fiddle tunes aren't your thing. Nothing wrong with that any more than Norwegian Death Metal or cubist art not being your thing. Enjoy the music you do play and don't worry about it.

Although admittedly, this will make an interesting discussion.

Scott

MountainBanjo - Posted - 08/19/2011:  05:53:04

I cant answer your question but I understand the asking. When I started banjo my only interest was to play it solo. Although I have come to love fiddle music in the meantime, and I even have a fiddle now, I dont love playing fiddle tunes on banjo. I like it well enough, but its just not the end all for me. I don't think I am ever going to be good enough to play with really good, fast fiddlers, but I'm already good enough to play solo on my porch. I'd just as soon sit and do nothing listening to a good fiddler, as back them up. Trying to be what everyone else thinks a banjo player should be (Ie a great backup for the fiddler) has not led to banjo happiness, it has led me to try to be something I never really wanted to be. Just sitting on my porch in the evening playing Fall(s) of Richmond for the dog, or some of the old songs and tunes Mike Seeger dredged up, now that's banjo ecstasy for me.

erikforgod - Posted - 08/19/2011:  06:04:45

I think alot of these old fiddle tunes...the melodies at least...have been handed down from England Ireland etc.... I like the fiddle tunes too...and I think alot of the folks here ( I suspect ) come to try and improve and learn to play more melody etc.. so thats why there is alot of talk about it on this forum. I think a good mix of some songs with some great vocals...and then add in some instrumentals too is the right balance, but I think for the most part the banjo accompaniment to inging is and (should be) very simple...not too much melody. But alot of this music is dance music...so I dunno.

Edited by - erikforgod on 08/19/2011 06:07:44

rudy - Posted - 08/19/2011:  06:07:37

"I'm not trying to set up a competition here. I'm trying to understand why the banjo repertoire is so overwhelmingly limited to this one narrow slice. Frankly, this narrow focus has come as a surprise to me when engaging with the online banjo world. So I'm trying to understand its appeal."

Marc, I have a few personal theories as to why this is true. 

First, a lot of us that like to attend jams are most often relegated to rhythm playing when there are fiddles present.  It’s a natural phenomenon as its usually the fiddle that leads tunes by nature of it being most notey and loudest among the instruments present.  It’s not that clawhammer banjo doesn’t have the capacity to be a “lead” instrument in the right setting, it’s just that the popularity of jamming dictates fiddle tunes as being the predominant choice in ensemble play.  If you want to go in a direction that focuses on clawhammer I think you need to only look as far as some of the other popular banjo players like Adam Hurt to see what’s necessary for the sans fiddle tunes to work effectively.

The fiddle tune format popularity is based more on the small variance and nuance of tunes that are best perceived by the fiddle players themselves.  I often wondered what the attraction to Irish sessions were for fiddle players until I had this explained and demonstrated to me by a few session players that loved nothing more than stringing together the three closest jigs that I personally could barely tell apart.

The bottom line of all this is since old time music is so commonly performed in the fiddle/banjo combination that the fiddle tunes are just naturally predominant. No ones to blame in all this; it’s just the way it works out for ensemble play. My opinion obviously, and YMMV. 

Edited by - rudy on 08/19/2011 06:11:36

erikforgod - Posted - 08/19/2011:  06:09:44

Nothing limited about a banjo...it has 5 strings and twenty some frets. The only thing that CAN limit the banjo are those that would play them :)

There are a few people I think pushing the boundaries with banjo...I think its just that most people start with having the idea in mind of playing folk music and maybe preserving an integral piece of american nostalgia when they play one...its like a "search into ones past" or roots so to speak...a journey in exploring something that is an integral part of american music history. Thats why I think there is in many ways more "looking backwards" than forwards with a banjo. Its a snapshot of who we are...our past :)

Edited by - erikforgod on 08/19/2011 06:12:36

rudy - Posted - 08/19/2011:  06:20:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by erikforgod



Nothing limited about a banjo...it has 5 strings and twenty some frets. The only thing that CAN limit the banjo are those that would play them :)

 There are a few people I think pushing the boundaries with banjo...I think its just that most people start with having the idea in mind of playing folk music and maybe preserving an integral piece of american nostalgia when they play one...its like a "search into ones past" or roots so to speak...a journey in exploring something that is an integral part of american music history. Thats why I think there is in many ways more "looking backwards" than forwards with a banjo. Its a snapshot of who we are...our past :)

---

 Erik, although the banjo isn't itself limited I'm saying the limiting factor is when its played with a few fiddle players thrown in.  The banjo gets relegated to the rear of the room in performance because of the particular aural position that it occupies.  That's not a bad thing in and of itself, just something that needs to be accounted for in a performance situation if you're going to focus on something other than fiddle tunes. 

mwc9725e - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:18:04

 

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

---

 There's at least one other person on BHO who doesn't think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all, but I don't like to name names. Many do sound very much alike. That may be because most of them are dance tunes. For some fiddle music that's generally pretty good, go to youtube and search on "Frank Fairfield". He plays some really pretty music -- fiddle, banjo, guitar.

To me, much fiddle music has the same over-riding characteristic as bluegrass -- faster and louder seems to be the objective. I prefer music that has a little more ( for want of a better word ) soul.

I see fiddle tunes ( most of them ) as being old time rap or hip-hop. Some people like that stuff too. I don't think you're missing anything, fiddle tunes just may not be your bag. You have lots of company, despite  the PR to the contrary.

Edited by - mwc9725e on 08/19/2011 07:22:08

pickinchik - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:25:28

Hahaha and that's why I love you Marc!!  You rule breaker you.  

Mandy

Jason Wilkerson - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:34:54

I would offer this to the discussion: fiddle tunes are not unique in the sense that they all tend to sound alike.  Most every genre of music tends to be the same way.  Think of jazz, southern gospel, classical,country/western, folk....I'm not saying that all folk songs are alike, or that all jazz songs are alike, but I am saying that 95% of the general population would agree that they largely sound alike.  This is why Band in a Box can create rhythm tracks that work for a whole genre of songs.  There are very few genres of music that by nature encompass enough variety to truly make the music non-repetitive.  Say, for example, a band plays techno music, and they begin to experiment with new sounds and new varieties...pretty soon, their music will become a new sub-genre in itself.  I think part of the definition of a genre of music is that the texture of the music must be very similar to other music of the same genre.  So, my point, all fiddle music does sound alike because it's supposed to.  This does very little to answer your basic question, but maybe it adds something to the discussion.

ramjo - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:45:11

I like what Rudy says about nuance. To me, that where the elegance is--in the nuance.  I prefer banjo and fiddle players who incorporate (again, nuanced) variation rather than repeat phrases note-for-note each time through. I like to listen for the musicianship in the approach to a tune, to imagine how I could infuse my own variations. It's creativity on a minimalist scale, and I really like that (in art too). The other thing that draws me to a fiddle tune is the "old" sound. Somebody made up that particular music long ago; people played with that person; people danced to that tune. If I can play it too, I can get connected to a long line backward in time. Maybe I'm over-romanticizing, but I do feel a resonance when I listen to a fiddle tune--that I'm hearing what Bill Monroe characterized as ancient tones.

Edited by - ramjo on 08/19/2011 07:46:43

BobCu - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:48:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Despite that fact that I've been listening to old time music for over 40 years, when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention.

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

---

 I was glad to have someone else say it.  I am very interested in 60's type folk music, and those are the tunes that I'm working on.  I am not going to limit myself to that going down the road, but I was starting to think that these simple 3 and 4 chord songs were being considered to be limiting.  I am finding them to be a great way to learn songs and use a multitude of openings in the songs to introduce fret hand techniques to spice them up.  Thanks for the post.

banjered - Posted - 08/19/2011:  07:53:07

Good question. About 4 years back I found an OT jam group and started learning fiddle tunes. I've learned about 150 tunes. There are some great tunes/melodies in the OT repertoire but I noticed that around 100 tunes or so that new tunes were just variations or very similar to previous tunes, not all that different, like Pretty Little Dog and Clinch Mountain Backstep. I've learned quite a few tunes I would never have learned on my own except that the group plays them but they don't do all that much for me. It is really fun when  I hear a tune that really grabs me but that doesn't happen as often now. I can play a tune like Road to Malvern but I actually enjoy more playing a simple tune like Barlow Knife or Little Birdie. Some favorites are Rock the Cradle Joe, All Around the Horn, Shenandoah Falls, Ducks On the Pond, Colored Aristocracy, etc. that sound very different to me and have a drive/melody that I enjoy playing. So I ask myself at this point how much of a "tune head" do I want to become? Many banjo players know hundreds of tunes. I will learn tunes that grab me in the future , fewer though they may be, so I am trying to be able now to schluff along on the fly rather than just pack my head with more tunes.  My favorite is singing with the banjo, sea songs, cowboy songs, Irish songs, etc. 

Speaking of Irish, for awhile I was learning Irish fiddle tunes on harmonica and tenor banjo and I ran into the same wall (for me). After I learned about a dozen  each of jigs/reels/hornpipes that I really liked, I realized I could spend the rest of my life packing tunes into my head and what was the point? Some people can pack a tune into their head quite easily but I have to work at it a bit and it takes time...what do I want to be doing with my time?

So I mostly follow my muse at this point. It is really fun to go play the banjo at farmer markets and watch the little kids who can't even talk do a dance. And I make ONES of dollars - ha! We all have different levels of saturation/obsessive points. What are you missing?  I'd say if it ain't fun don't do it! Follow the fun! Like Zepp says, it is just a banjo, and have FUN!!! Banjered

Don Borchelt - Posted - 08/19/2011:  08:52:36

I really like fiddle tunes.  I never get bored with them.  I won't apologize for it, and I don't spend a lot of time thinking too hard about it.  This is my paean to the fiddle tune, written a couple of years ago:

What exactly is a fiddle tune?  A fiddle tune is a melody that once you hear it, you can't seem to get it out of your head until you can grab your banjo and learn it yourself. A fiddle tune is a living cord connecting us back to long ago generations, to feel deep in ourselves just a fragment of feeling transmitted from across the ages by some plain common folk, our ancestors otherwise long forgotten. A fiddle tune is a kind of tune that has a lot of music concentrated in just a little bit of space, and in that respect it is to notes what poetry is to words. A good fiddle tune you can play for a very long time and not get tired of it. A good fiddle tune is a tune that you can never quite play the same way twice, even when you want to. A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. Fiddle tunes all pretty much sound the same, except they all sound different when you finally hear them. A good fiddle tune will always be remembered by somebody. And a good fiddle tune will make you forget, for just an instant, that man is born to die.

Lake Genero is coming up in a few weeks.  A whole weekend of mostly picking fiddle tunes.  The closest thing to heaven on earth!

- Don Borchelt

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 08/19/2011 08:53:48

banjoholic - Posted - 08/19/2011:  09:32:42

Well, Don just said it just about as well as it could be said, but I'll still add my 2 cents..

I used to feel similarly fiddle tunes, I think for a couple of reasons.  One was that it took me a while for my modern ears to appreciate the sound/timbre of the fiddle (I'd also likely been biased against it by my exposure to bluegrass fiddle, which I just stylistically don't like).  The other was that they did at first all sound the same due to my lack of familiarity with the form. 

Now I like them because:

1.  I'm a really big fan of melody.  Most fiddle tunes have been around for a long time because they have really great melodies that make people feel something when they hear them.  They've been passed along for good reason.  I probably feel the same way you do Marc about a lot of jazz and blues - I'm very familiar with those genres, have listened to a lot of the material, but only appreciate a small segment of it, largely because melody often takes a backseat.  Music has to make me feel something for me to like it.

2.  I like music/art that has constraints.  Fiddle tunes have a common form and style.  I tend to appreciate art more when something unique and individual is created within the confines of a given form.  Bach is also my favorite composer, and I see many parallels between fiddle tunes and baroque music.

I understand your point about multiple repetitions of a fiddle tune, which I enjoy more as a player than a listener.  But this has more to do with the state of mind this creates than it does with any appeal to aesthetics.  Playing a fiddle tune you know well 10 times on your banjo likely leads to the same brain states as transcendental meditation, yoga, etc., which many folks find a pleasant state to be in.

That said, they certainly aren't the end all be all of old-time music.  But they are a lot of fun to share with others.

Josh

corgies - Posted - 08/19/2011:  10:58:17

A string of fiddle tunes often loses my attention too; a string of banjo tunes loses my attention as well. But the two together, playing off each other ....aaaahhh. That is heaven on earth.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/19/2011:  14:50:41

First, a couple of clarifications:

(1) When I talk about "fiddle tunes" here - I mean played on the banjo, not the fiddle. The vast majority of music I see in the old time section of the BHO consists of fiddle tunes played on the banjo.

(2) I love a good fiddle tune, or two, or three, played well on the banjo. My difficulty is understanding why so many people seem to play nothing but fiddle tunes: what makes them so special that I'm not understanding, that makes you want to play them to the virtual exclusion of everything else?

The answers have been quite interesting. So far, to my mind, the most profound answer has come from Don Borchelt. (Why does that not surprise me?)

I'm particularly struck by his characterization of fiddle tunes thusly: A fiddle tune is a kind of tune that has a lot of music concentrated in just a little bit of space, and in that respect it is to notes what poetry is to words.

I am learning something here.

banjoholic - Posted - 08/19/2011:  15:34:14

Marc - I'm not sure that many old-time banjo players do just play fiddle tunes.  However, fiddle tunes are great for jamming (see my comments earlier about the state of mind created by playing multiple renditions), and so those who are jamming frequently are probably just focusing on the stuff they'll play at the next jam.  Those who play primarily for their own enjoyment I imagine play a wider breadth of stuff.  

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/19/2011:  16:09:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoholic

Marc - I'm not sure that many old-time banjo players do just play fiddle tunes.  However, fiddle tunes are great for jamming (see my comments earlier about the state of mind created by playing multiple renditions), and so those who are jamming frequently are probably just focusing on the stuff they'll play at the next jam.  Those who play primarily for their own enjoyment I imagine play a wider breadth of stuff.  

---

I do understand what you mean about the meditative state that comes from multiple renditions of the tune. I do play like that as well in private ... I have lots of weird variations of June Apple that I play in diverse tunings, and my objective, when I play, is to make incremental changes with each pass. Soon the tune is barely recognizable - but still there, lurking in the sinews of the music. A very meditative approach, I think.

Perhaps you're right, that people don't play fiddle tunes to the exclusion of almost everything else. But you wouldn't guess that by the tremendous predominance that talk about fiddle tunes presents in these forums.

However, there are only a few banjo players of fiddle tunes whose albums consistently hold my attention all the way through. Three that come to mind that I've discovered here on the Hangout (and there are more) are John Balch, Hunter Robertson and Adam Hurt and there are another three BHO members who have not released albums - at least recently - whose work I am sure will also hold my attention in the same way: Don Borchelt, Tom Berghan, and Ric Hollander.

But these are all exceptional stylists who infuse their playing with emotion and personality. For many many others, I do find that I simply "tune out" after three songs - my mind wanders, and I'm no longer attending to the music. I find myself craving a change of pace. I want some songs. I want some stuff with a different feel.

Jason Wilkerson, above, posited that any musical genre will tend to all sound the same. That may be true - but why restrict yourself to playing only one genre? And why do most old time banjo players seem to gravitate to this, and only this, genre? When I listen to the old records, there seems to be a whole lot more to old time music to me.

I myself don't restrict myself at all to old time music. I'll sit in with anyone that will have me - and am always delighted when people say something like "wow the banjo sounds really good on that - I never would have guessed it!" - but I know that's not for everyone. When I have sat in with a rock band, for instance, and was asked for two songs that I would sing - we worked up the first - and then I presented the second. The drummer immediately said I couldn't play that one, it was in the same key and used the same tempo as the first one. How different from an old time jam!

Nevertheless, I think even the old time genre is waaaay more varied than fiddle tunes, and the rest of the genre feels largely (though not entirely) neglected here.

So there seems to be a compelling pull to fiddle tunes - the magnetism of which somewhat escapes me.

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 08/19/2011 16:13:38

Paul R - Posted - 08/19/2011:  17:02:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

---

Well, Marc, I respectfully disagree with that premise. I think that there's a preponderance of fiddle tunes posted in the video/audio sections here, but I think that's because people want to show their progress and proficiency, and - I'm willing to stand corrected here - they may be much more self-conscious about putting their singing voices in front of the public. There's also a tendency to respect certain traditions, and lots of "traditional" music has the fiddle deeply entrenched in the repertoire. Dance has lots to do with it, too.

I'm another one who thinks that OT is not limited to fiddle tunes. Listen to the old NLCR albums and you'll find plenty of vocals. I come from the fifties-sixties "great folk scare" and that, to me at least, was mainly vocal. Fiddle tunes didn't enter the picture until I migrated to Hogtown in the seventies.

There's also more of the "gunfighter" element to fiddle tunes, too, just as the (mostly, but not only, electric) guitarists of the sixties and seventies had that image. Who's fastest? Who's best? Who can cut the other one? (see the liner notes to Al Kooper's and Mike Bloomfield's The Lost Concert Tapes for a description of how Bloomfield supposedly blows away Johnny Winter with a few well chosen notes.) I'm sure there's lots of ego in town when some jams are going on (not all, but I was at one where you could tell the difference from room to room).

I don't feel that fiddle tunes all sound the same. My wife might, but that's probably due more to my banjo playing. I find a diversity and I find that I occasionally hear an new one and I just have to (try to) learn it.

My elementary students used to remark that classical music was "boring". In less charitable moments I'd retort, "You're boring!" as a beginning of the explanation that the music they listened to was so simple that it was simplistic. Classical music, I'd say, was complex and constantly shifting, working on a variety of levels. On the other hand, I used to say that blues was "too primitive", until I really discovered blues. I think of fiddle tunes in a similar way. They are simple on the surface, but there can be a fair amount of stuff going on, especially when you add the supporting instruments. (I like dynamics in music ad I feel that you can get better dynamics in a group context.)

But I can see where you're coming from. A guitarist once said to me, "I was jamming with some bluegrass players. I was going C, F, G ... C, F, G ... Did I leave the window open? C,F,G ... C,F,G ... Did I forget to turn off the stove? C,F,G ..." Kinda cruel, but one can feel that way some times.

erikforgod - Posted - 08/19/2011:  18:51:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

I really like fiddle tunes.  I never get bored with them.  I won't apologize for it, and I don't spend a lot of time thinking too hard about it.  This is my paean to the fiddle tune, written a couple of years ago:

What exactly is a fiddle tune?  A fiddle tune is a melody that once you hear it, you can't seem to get it out of your head until you can grab your banjo and learn it yourself. A fiddle tune is a living cord connecting us back to long ago generations, to feel deep in ourselves just a fragment of feeling transmitted from across the ages by some plain common folk, our ancestors otherwise long forgotten. A fiddle tune is a kind of tune that has a lot of music concentrated in just a little bit of space, and in that respect it is to notes what poetry is to words. A good fiddle tune you can play for a very long time and not get tired of it. A good fiddle tune is a tune that you can never quite play the same way twice, even when you want to. A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. Fiddle tunes all pretty much sound the same, except they all sound different when you finally hear them. A good fiddle tune will always be remembered by somebody. And a good fiddle tune will make you forget, for just an instant, that man is born to die.

Lake Genero is coming up in a few weeks.  A whole weekend of mostly picking fiddle tunes.  The closest thing to heaven on earth!

- Don Borchelt

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I am right there with yah Don!

banjoholic - Posted - 08/19/2011:  20:01:57

The other issue, Marc, is that once you start getting into fiddle tunes, you realize there are soooo many good ones.  Enough for a few lifetimes.  I'll also add that playing banjo with a fiddler is about as much fun as a banjo player can have.  There really is something magical about that combination.   

That said, it seems to me that current stringbands are playing a nice variety of stuff and have a have broad conception of old-time music (ala NLCR).  When the group I play with performs for a general audience, we never play two fiddle tunes in a row.  Without a doubt, to a general audience all fiddle tunes sound the same.

notserp89m - Posted - 08/19/2011:  20:43:29

the fiddle is the queen of the ball in old time...

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/19/2011:  20:53:44

I do agree, Josh, that the banjo fiddle duet is an unbeatable combination. But I think this is true even when they're not playing fiddle tunes per se. They are so perfectly contrasting in sound - one very staccato with rapidly decaying notes - the other extremely legato with notes that can go on forever - one highly rhythmic - the other highly melodic. They just balance each other perfectly.

None of which quite explains why one aspect of the repertoire seems so dominant.

I think Don's point about fiddle tunes being like poems is a very valid point. But how many of us would actually be interested in an evening consisting exclusively of sonnets? Shakespeare wrote a brilliant book of sonnets, but his (equally great) plays are certainly more popular. On the other hand I guess a bunch of poets might gravitate more to the sonnets.

BanjoDaddio - Posted - 08/20/2011:  01:39:16

Great topic Marc, thanks for posting it. And some very comments from the BH crowd....I find that the a lot of the fiddle tune banjo players out there tend to be a lot younger bunch. Did they first get hooked on playing fiddle tunes and there may be no going back, even if they know some other approaches. A comfort zone has been reached perhaps and some may feel that going with their strengths is best and attempting something different --maybe singing, is to dangerous. It's the "in" thing to do for sure. I went to a jam a long time ago, where fiddle tunes where flying around like buzzards over a dead horse. A round robin type of thing, it came to me and I began to play an old Uncle Dave tune. Man, those fiddle players looked around at each other like someone had just cut the cheese. It was not in their comfort zone and everyone, except one brave soul who did play along, stayed silent and pretended to like it. It's maybe here already but we're seeing a split. I'll try to play anything and I don;t mind playing a few fiddle tunes, but I'd like to see at least a hint of acceptance for banjo tunes and players that sing or do tunes based on the the banjo with all it can do.....One thing about fiddle tunes on the banjo--sometimes it's really hard to do and it can be a big feather in ones cap to be able to play some of those tunes, especially note for note....Again, great post Marc

PS Billy Faier....Now, there's a guy that plays tunes and uses the banjo to the 10th power. Ain't no Round Peake there boys!...

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 08/20/2011:  03:03:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Despite that fact that I've been listening to old time music for over 40 years, when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention.

Pretty much everyone here seems to think fiddle tunes are the be all and end all of the old time banjo repertoire.

I can't understand why.

What am I missing here?

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Your not missing anything, fiddle tunes solo on banjo are boring. 

What keeps my interest is when there's either a voice or other musical instrument involved, and dare I mention this?  Melodic playing

Edited by - plunknplinkntwang on 08/20/2011 03:24:42

mojo_monk - Posted - 08/20/2011:  04:00:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt

What exactly is a fiddle tune?  A fiddle tune is a melody that once you hear it, you can't seem to get it out of your head until you can grab your banjo and learn it yourself. A fiddle tune is a living cord connecting us back to long ago generations, to feel deep in ourselves just a fragment of feeling transmitted from across the ages by some plain common folk, our ancestors otherwise long forgotten. A fiddle tune is a kind of tune that has a lot of music concentrated in just a little bit of space, and in that respect it is to notes what poetry is to words. A good fiddle tune you can play for a very long time and not get tired of it. A good fiddle tune is a tune that you can never quite play the same way twice, even when you want to. A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. Fiddle tunes all pretty much sound the same, except they all sound different when you finally hear them. A good fiddle tune will always be remembered by somebody. And a good fiddle tune will make you forget, for just an instant, that man is born to die.

- Don Borchelt

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Amen.

-Sean

Don Borchelt - Posted - 08/20/2011:  04:08:58

Banjodaddio wrote: "I find that the a lot of the fiddle tune banjo players out there tend to be a lot younger bunch. "

Uhm, or young at heart, maybe.

banjoholic - Posted - 08/20/2011:  05:32:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

I do agree, Josh, that the banjo fiddle duet is an unbeatable combination. But I think this is true even when they're not playing fiddle tunes per se. They are so perfectly contrasting in sound - one very staccato with rapidly decaying notes - the other extremely legato with notes that can go on forever - one highly rhythmic - the other highly melodic. They just balance each other perfectly.

None of which quite explains why one aspect of the repertoire seems so dominant.

 

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I think it's dominant simply because there's a longstanding tradition of the fiddle and banjo getting together to play fiddle tunes - I'm not aware of any traditions where fiddle and banjo play another genre of music.  So when banjo players decide they like that sound and want to learn more about how to play banjo with the fiddle, there's a rich tradition they can draw upon for ideas and inspiration.  They then find there's more than a lifetime's worth of wonderful tunes to learn, and thousands of other fiddlers who share the same repertoire and are available to play along with.  And there's also the satisfaction that comes with feeling part of a tradition (playing my great grandfather's fiddle, for example, gives a me feeling of connection to the past that I couldn't get any other way)

John Gribble - Posted - 08/20/2011:  06:43:48

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoak

quote:

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Originally posted by John Gribble

Marc, I have to admit I'm with you. I do play some fiddle tunes on the banjo, but generally prefer songs, whether or not I sing them aloud. They just seem to offer more space for self-expression. 

 

I disagree with statement that songs offer more space for self-expression. For myself I find fiddle tunes can offer lots of room for self expression, melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.

 

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 Your opinion is no doubt based on your experience. My opinion is based on my experience. 

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/20/2011:  07:19:11

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoholic

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

I do agree, Josh, that the banjo fiddle duet is an unbeatable combination. But I think this is true even when they're not playing fiddle tunes per se. They are so perfectly contrasting in sound - one very staccato with rapidly decaying notes - the other extremely legato with notes that can go on forever - one highly rhythmic - the other highly melodic. They just balance each other perfectly.

None of which quite explains why one aspect of the repertoire seems so dominant.

 

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I think it's dominant simply because there's a longstanding tradition of the fiddle and banjo getting together to play fiddle tunes - I'm not aware of any traditions where fiddle and banjo play another genre of music.  ...

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I don't think it has to be a "tradition" for the fiddle and banjo to cozy up together. There are all kinds of music in which they can compliment each other really well. Here are a few diverse examples of me playing different genres with fiddle players over the past 30 or so years: Old time songster; story song; blues; jazz.

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 08/20/2011 07:21:19

Won't Git Drunk No More (A.K.A. Old Plank Road)

The Owl

I Shook Hands With The Devil

It Was an Ordinary Day

mwc9725e - Posted - 08/20/2011:  08:05:45

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoholic

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

I do agree, Josh, that the banjo fiddle duet is an unbeatable combination. But I think this is true even when they're not playing fiddle tunes per se. They are so perfectly contrasting in sound - one very staccato with rapidly decaying notes - the other extremely legato with notes that can go on forever - one highly rhythmic - the other highly melodic. They just balance each other perfectly.

None of which quite explains why one aspect of the repertoire seems so dominant.

 

---

I think it's dominant simply because there's a longstanding tradition of the fiddle and banjo getting together to play fiddle tunes - I'm not aware of any traditions where fiddle and banjo play another genre of music.  ...

---

I don't think it has to be a "tradition" for the fiddle and banjo to cozy up together. There are all kinds of music in which they can compliment each other really well. Here are a few diverse examples of me playing different genres with fiddle players over the past 30 or so years: Old time songster; story song; blues; jazz.

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 Gee Marc, those are great. You're right, they complement each other very well. Somehow, the traditional stance seems to be that the (old time ) banjo's used for backing up fiddles that play dance music, aka fiddle tunes. I don't think that's the case at all. I'm not OLD old time, but I do go back a long way, and most of the banjo music I heard in the 1930's was solo or supporting someone's singing, not supporting the fiddle. Now, of course they played fiddle music at dances, but outside that environment, the banjo stood on its own, or supported the voice, or was often used as the melody instrument with guitar backup.

banjoholic - Posted - 08/20/2011:  08:20:36

I don't think it has to be either, Marc. I was just giving an answer to your question of why the fiddle tune has become such a popular form for old time banjo players. The great thing about being an amateur musician is you can just play the stuff that tickles your neurons. Fiddle tunes do so quite nicely for many of us!

arw - Posted - 08/20/2011:  09:04:50

I find it relaxing and somewhat hypnotic to play fiddle tunes. Also, it's an excuse to hang out and imbibe with fiddlers!

mwc9725e - Posted - 08/20/2011:  09:15:33

quote:

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Originally posted by arw

I find it relaxing and somewhat hypnotic to play fiddle tunes. Also, it's an excuse to hang out and imbibe with fiddlers!

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 So there you are Marc, it's all a matter of opinion and personal taste.

aeroweenie - Posted - 08/20/2011:  10:56:31

One of the things I love about fiddle tunes is that they DON'T all sound the same. Granted it is easy to list many that are similar, but it is equally easy to list many that are dissimilar. For example, "Soldiers Joy", "Fishers Hornpipe", "Growling old Man, Cackling old Woman", "Hangmans Reel", "Cuckoos Nest", "Needlecase", "Midnight on the Water", etc., etc, sound and feel very different to my ear. Interesting discussion.

stigandr5 - Posted - 08/20/2011:  16:20:52

I think that most popular fiddle tunes conform to a relatively predictable form. They are, by and large, in the key of either A or D and have an A part and a B part. The repetitiveness of the form is what I find tiresome. Despite all the variations one can make on the melody, the same, vanilla, structure usually leaves me underwhelmed.

There is a class of fiddle tunes, however, that keeps me listening because they vary the structure. Listening to William Stepp's version of "Bonaparte's Retreat," for instance, keep me on the edge of my seat precisely because it plays with rhythm, melody, and dynamics. It tells a story. The overwhelming majority of performed fiddle tunes seems, to me, to be the kind that you'd want as background noise at a barn dance. These tunes just don't seem to command your attention.

What I often ponder is how that one fiddle song manages to stand out, what makes it different. More often than not, it's the feeling behind the music that I can't put into words. And it's a rare thing.

It's like good bluegrass. In my opinion, all bluegrass music works with the same raw materials: simple melodies, simple chord progressions, simple lyrics. What makes one bluegrass group stand out from another is the unique passion that is brought to the music. And in the case of ensemble play, it's the singularities of the interactions between voices and instruments.

Sorry to get preachy, but I think that what makes all genres of music good is soul. You know it when you hear it. And with fiddle tunes, if they ain't got it, you know right away.

erikforgod - Posted - 08/20/2011:  17:01:38

It seems like thre is a fiddle tune of just abouyt anything and everything LOL!

mwc9725e - Posted - 08/21/2011:  07:54:46

 The overwhelming majority of performed fiddle tunes seems, to me, to be the kind that you'd want as background noise at a barn dance.

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 I never thought of it that way, I think you're right --  maybe GOOD fiddle music is the kind that would make people stop dancing and listen. I don't hear much of that kind, but some fits the description.

mojo_monk - Posted - 08/21/2011:  10:51:11

Good discussion.

The vast majority of N. American fiddle tunes are dance pieces, and as such the structure and "predictability" is an important component. One of the wonderful characteristics of this music (in my opinion) is its tendency to allow for an almost "zenlike" experience for the musicians devoted to playing it - whether playing for dances, festivals, or local jams. This is particularly true in an ensemble setting (2 or more musicians). This is why I listen to and study fiddle tunes: mostly so I can forget them while playing them. I don't imagine that I'd be nearly as interested in fiddle tunes if I didn't have regular opportunities to jam with others. This is probably why I can never get into banjo songs as deeply as I know I should - there are just too many tunes to play!

On the other hand there many tunes which grew out of song melodies (John Salyer's Vance No More). These are oftentimes "crooked" and melodically unpredictable - whether or not they're more interesting is up to the beholder. I personally find them really exciting and great for the much talked about fiddle/banjo duo.

-Sean

 

banjered - Posted - 08/21/2011:  10:55:27

Great repost Don - that was pure poetry!

Plunk said solo banjo fiddle tunes are boring. 

To me, there are "stand alone" banjo fiddle tunes, meaning that some fiddle tunes sound great - to me - played solo by a banjo - Colored Aristocracy, Around the Horn, Cherokee Shuffle (YMMV) whereas other fiddle tunes don't do much - for me - played solo on the banjo - Bunch of Keyes, Martha Campbell.  However - to me - each fiddle tune has a "spirit" that if you capture it can turn the most boring fiddle tune into something incredible. On You Tube there is a video from Clifftop of them playing "Half Past Four" where all the players and audience are captured and lifted up by the experience. Most of us who jam have had that experience as you are playing suddenly realize how delicious that tune you're jamming on becomes magical in its hypnotic effect. Banjo - my drug of choice! Banjered

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/25/2011:  19:13:52

I guess my answer for why all the fiddle tunes is that they solve the problem of people being afraid to open their mouths and sing. I always considered myself to be more of an instrumental player than a singer, but it seemed like whenever I got together with others - none of them would sing. So I did the singing and that was that. I had a loud voice and was not too far off tune but I was never a real "singer". Still - I was willing to do it and therefore it got done.

I've always liked fiddle tunes, although banjos playing fiddle tunes without fiddles fiddling at the same time always struck me as sounding kinda incomplete. There is nothing better than a fiddle/banjo duet in my mind except for a fiddle/banjo/voice trio.

erikforgod - Posted - 08/25/2011:  19:17:22

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I guess my answer for why all the fiddle tunes is that they solve the problem of people being afraid to open their mouths and sing. I always considered myself to be more of an instrumental player than a singer, but it seemed like whenever I got together with others - none of them would sing. So I did the singing and that was that. I had a loud voice and was not too far off tune but I was never a real "singer". Still - I was willing to do it and therefore it got done.

I've always liked fiddle tunes, although banjos playing fiddle tunes without fiddles fiddling at the same time always struck me as sounding kinda incomplete. There is nothing better than a fiddle/banjo duet in my mind except for a fiddle/banjo/voice trio.

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 I agree Tony...I love just the banjo and the fiddle...or maybe just the banjo and a guitar with maybe an ocasional break of singing a verse or too...