DoubleG - Posted - 08/25/2011:  22:47:29

After reading "ramjo's" take on page 1 it got me to rethinking my approach to my interest in Old-Time in general and Fiddle Tunes in particular. What is my connection to it, and how do I want to pursue my enjoyment of it? As "MountainBanjo" stated above "I'm already good enough to play solo on my porch" but I so enjoy being in a mix of other creative players. I think for me the enjoyment will be found in the subtle differences or shades of expression a mix of good players can breathe into the rendering of these "Ancient Tones" in a small group where you could experiment with rhythm, melody, and dynamics. Being able to as "ramjo" stated, "listen for the musicianship in the approach to a tune." That could not happen in a large Jam. Really, how would anyone notice someone's nuanced dynamic playing within a thundering wall of simultaneous melodies and strumming. Larger settings have their place as learning vehicles, or for the fun of being part of a community experience playing with others and dancing. But to enjoy the creativity and intimacy of creating the music, I think not.

So here was ramjo's quote:

"To me, that's where the elegance is -- in the nuance. I prefer banjo and fiddle players who incorporate (again, nuanced) variation rather than repeat phrases note-for-note each time through. I like to listen for the musicianship in the approach to a tune, to imagine how I could infuse my own variations. It's creativity on a minimalist scale, and I really like that (in art too). The other thing that draws me to a fiddle tune is the "old" sound. Somebody made up that particular music long ago; people played with that person; people danced to that tune. If I can play it too, I can get connected to a long line backward in time. Maybe I'm over-romanticizing, but I do feel a resonance when I listen to a fiddle tune -- that I'm hearing what Bill Monroe characterized as ancient tones."

Over-romanticizing? This is the stuff that keeps us in the game! (Read Don Borchelt's poem to the fiddle tune on the first page.) This above quote is so well articulated and strikes at the heart of my connection to this music. Where does that “old” sound come from anyway? The fiddle has it, the clawhammer banjo has it, and how do you define it? 

I mentioned in another thread that recently I had my first chance to play with a fiddle player -- just my banjo and his fiddle. Both of us kind of new at our instruments and perhaps a little tentative at first, but after a few tunes we were able to slow down the nervous adrenaline and listen to the interplay -- what a great sound we started to create! Wish we had played longer. As "Marc Nerenberg" stated in his take above "They (banjo and fiddle) are so perfectly contrasting in sound - one very staccato with rapidly decaying notes - the other extremely legato with notes that can go on forever - one highly rhythmic - the other highly melodic. They just balance each other perfectly." It was a small sound, with nuance and room for discovery, yet still a powerful voice in its simplicity. Me listening to him and visa versa -- and even with our limited abilities we were able to play around and through these powerful melodies and create something unique.

So thanks for the eye opener there "ramjo". For me, I think the intimate setting; the back porch feel to enjoy this type of music is the setting I will seek out.

Bill H - Posted - 08/26/2011:  19:09:00

In the mid 80's when I hadn't been playing banjo very long I signed up to play in a banjo contest prior to a rodeo at a large stadium located at a local NH ski area. I had never played out of my living room previously. Due to the vast popularity of the banjo in northern New England five banjo players signed up.  There weren't many people in the stadium when the contest started, but that changed while I was waiting for my turn. Finally I took the stage with my old Bay State. Not too far into the tune I heard this load noise going on to the tempo of my playing. When I looked up the stands were full and six thousand rodeo fans were clapping and stomping their feet in time with my very simple rendition of Cripple Creek. Nothing before or since has freaked me out the way that unexpected moment did.

As simple as they are, I think there's quality, a certain power that many fiddle tunes have that folks can't resist. Even played poorly the way I did. They want to clap their hands, get up and dance. I believe there's something primal in fiddle tunes that make them irresistible.

JanetB - Posted - 08/28/2011:  18:40:29

Hi Marc,

Such a good question you asked with no simple answer.  How can you describe something as yummy as strawberry shortcake, as comforting as morning coffee, as beautiful as a coral sunset, as lively as rain on a metal roof, as hopeful as a 4-leaf clover, as fun as a slip-n-slide, as peppy as kids going to recess....?????   Can your legal eagle mind and my husband's vise-like engineering mind find a real answer?  You seem to like ballads and lyrics with emotional impact.  Maybe your musical mind just doesn't have the synapse connections that are excited by fiddle tunes.  It's not your fault, and it's certainly okay.  Your gifts lie elsewhere.  Mfaybe you're missing something in your diet (just kidding, you know).  You certainly generated a marvelous discussion!

Janet              

JanetB - Posted - 08/29/2011:  05:28:40

From the logic of an engineer's mind, here's what my husband adds:  Most fiddle tunes are energetic and happy.  It is not "background" music.  They are almost always instrumental and are nice when you are not in the mood for vocals and lyrics.  I like the sound of old-time fiddling when extensive use is made of drone strings.  My favorite way to hear old-time fiddle tunes is with the traditional old time band consisting of fiddle, clawhammer banjo, guitar and base, playing as if for a square dance.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 08/29/2011:  16:30:18

Wow, sorry they all sound the same to you guys.  That's got to be a terrible affliction.

Brian

majikgator - Posted - 08/30/2011:  11:47:17

My view is from an audience perspective. If you are dancing then lay on the fiddle tunes one after another. If it is a listening audience then frankly most people get bored listening to one instrumental tune after the next, fiddle tune or no. There aren't really that many clawhammer banjo tunes instrumentally speaking as in written for that style of banjo, i know there are a lot, a bunch right here at BHO but not from a long tradition. Most OT instrumentals can be viewed as written for the fiddle, the rest are vocals mostly ballads of one type or another. Many of these work great on banjo as does a lot of blues, "country rag",  Jug Band music and "modern" music ie Carter Family, Woody Gutherie and so on. Lots of tunes on early radio that work well and are worthy as keeping on the "folk" tradition. Folk music is essentially the popular music of a period that has been handed down over generations, songs and tunes that have stood the test of time.

Too much emphasis on fiddle tunes in the forums here and at festivals and such, you bet your booties you are right on the mark, YES you can sing and you(although i'm having a hard time on some) can learn to sing with the banjo. Are there great old songs that can be played on the banjo with a really great OT banjo accompaniment (worth studying in it;s own right). Darn Tootin and we need to start digging and bringing more to light. Worked during the folk boom (scare) until it was determined that singer/song writing was the way to go (boo hiss). The train is leaving get on board!

leemysliwiec - Posted - 08/31/2011:  15:23:57

I don't know if this is the best place to make this comment but, a classical musician asked me why old time music is almost always done in the first position on the fiddle. My response was," when I learn all of the tunes that can be played in the first position, then I'll start playing in the 3rd or 5th position. "... I'm still in the first postion after 30 years. Old time music is "user friendly"....

J-Walk - Posted - 08/31/2011:  18:40:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluemule_77

Wow, sorry they all sound the same to you guys.  That's got to be a terrible affliction.

Brian

---

That's pretty much what I was going to type. I just discovered the old time fiddle tune genre about 5 years ago. I am continually amazed and impressed by the variety of tunes out there.

At the Centralia Campout a few weeks ago, somebody in a jam said (quite seriously) that all fiddle tunes are just variation of  5-6 basic melodies. Everyone nodded, agreed and seem to confirm it. I was just a newbie, so I didn't have the guts to tell him that he was completely wrong.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 08/31/2011:  21:00:12

I feel as though the last couple of posts are putting words into my mouth that I never uttered. I never said that all fiddle tunes sound the same to me.

What I said was: "when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention."

There is a difference between those two statements.

Obviously, each fiddle tune has its own melody. But tune after tune with the same arrangement (which is what I generally encounter in old time music these days) causes a certain degree of brain freeze after about three tunes in a row - causing me to lose focus and attentiveness to the subtleties and differences between the tunes. Essentially, I stop listening. I'm just hearing - which is a rather different experience than actively listening. No longer being attentive, they all tend to sound the same.

My question, which was a sincere question, was what is there that manages to keep your attention tune after tune after tune, with all essentially the same structure and the same arrangement - that I am clearly missing (since it all becomes a pretty boring blur to me after a while). I do want to know what I'm missing so that I can share the experience that thus far eludes me.

I admit, I feel exactly the same way about bluegrass and Celtic or Irish music. Three songs is about my limit before its starts becoming an undifferentiated mass.

Oddly enough, I don't usually feel that way about blues - although I know many people who do. But in blues, I have observed that it really depends on how good and varied the performer may be. I recently saw a Taj Mahal concert, in which the opening act was a well known Texas Blues band. I and everyone around me found the Texas band sounded like they were just playing the same song over and over again - sometimes fast, sometimes slow, and in a variety of keys - but essentially the same song. Taj Mahal, on the other hand, did a show that was as varied and interesting as anybody could ever hope to hear. The contrast between the two acts was dramatic.

MarkRB - Posted - 09/01/2011:  03:34:01

This may be off the mark here but I guess I'll chime in. I too often feel that a lot of the old-time and bluegrass music sounds to much the same, and yes the blues too, though not to the same extent. But then most hard rock bands (to me) sound like they just play the same melody but with just different words (I could be blamed for that as well with my banjo due to my lack of experience). Lets say I go to an art show (I am an artist) and the idea of the show is the apple. Lets say there are twenty artists participating, ten are very realistic and the other ten are impressionistic. I would most likely look at the realist ones and say 'Yes nice but they look much the same, real.' I might then look at the impressionistic ones and say 'Look at the colors in this one and the texture in that one and how this one the apple is almost gone!'. Some one else might say 'WOW! Those realist ones are great, the others look like some kid did them'. This might happen for two reasons; one I will not go into as it would be a long post but would deal with different art theories, two and most basic reason is personal taste, which I believe is formed by what makes us who we are. I mean we can all like and enjoy different things, that doesn't mean you can not appreciate something you might not normally be drawn to but that your person, your brain, your heart pulls you in a different direction. Some may taste the different nuances of wine, I may may just want one that taste good. Now I am not speaking for anyone else here but just myself. Maybe I don't hear any difference between a bunch of fiddle, bluegrass, blues (well maybe not so much blues) and hard rock tunes, just because of who I am. I know there really are differences in the various types of music mentioned but my own interest in them isn't great enough to really, really listen and hear those differences.

Edited by - MarkRB on 09/01/2011 03:36:31

stigandr5 - Posted - 09/01/2011:  08:32:46

Something I've noticed about listening to live music is that I am much more tolerant of "mediocre" playing when I can see, in person, that a musician is really giving their all. Unfortunately, in the absence of that real experience, I'm more likely to dislike a recording I hear of that same musician. But, if I first attended a concert and then bought the CD, I'm more likely to enjoy that recording, mediocre though it may be.

It's a very difficult thing to translate passion into an audio file, I think. Consequently, only really expert players can capture my ear with a fiddle tune (without me seeing them get into the music--I hear it!).

So why do I listen to mediocre fiddle tunes as well? Mostly because I have a memory associated with the tune that makes listening less about the music than it is about the experience that formed the memory.

Irish music is similar. I associate tunes with memories, and those memories a really the reason why I go back to the tune again and again. I won't say it has nothing to do with the tune, but the moods and memories it stirs up are what keep me hooked.

---

I guess what I'm getting at is that some music I listen to for virtuosity, some I listen to for the poetry of the lyrics, some I listen to as background music, some I listen to in order to dissect, and some I listen to as a pneumonic device. And most music combines aspects of all of these functions for me.

wgoehrin - Posted - 09/01/2011:  09:54:28

As a one-year banjo player and month-long fiddler, and more of a singer than a virtuoso at anything, it's been critical for me to get a dose of everything. Jigs, reels, songs, ballads, folk standards, and just straight old-time classics.

This prepares you for any number of performative situations, the kind that strigandr5 above has done a great job of describing.

This may be solipsistic, but I think that if we are to be liaisons to the world of old music, of traditional music, then we have to be prepared to share in a good number of performative situations. Fiddle tunes happen to be one of the best ways for people to share in the music together, but they often times lack the kind of storytelling and orality that other songs and mediums do better.

So, my thought is, mix it up. There's too much to learn not to be constantly learning. Oral tradition should include a plurality of oralities. :-)

-willi

banjoholic - Posted - 09/01/2011:  11:03:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

Obviously, each fiddle tune has its own melody. But tune after tune with the same arrangement (which is what I generally encounter in old time music these days) causes a certain degree of brain freeze after about three tunes in a row - causing me to lose focus and attentiveness to the subtleties and differences between the tunes. Essentially, I stop listening. I'm just hearing - which is a rather different experience than actively listening. No longer being attentive, they all tend to sound the same.

---

 I think it just boils down to how it makes you feel, Marc, and I imagine the repetition of it actually appeals to a lot of folks.  I think you're viewing fiddle tunes from an intellectual standpoint, which isn't the appeal for most.  The hit of nicotine is pretty much the same each time you get it, but folks can suck on cigarettes all day long and not tire of it.  The same is true of virtually anything that activates reward/pleasure circuits, fiddle tunes included.  Just this morning, for example, I listened to eight different versions of the tune Fortune on my way to work.  It's been in my head most of the day, and I may do the same on my way home.  Asking me to explain why I do this is like asking a smoker why they smoke - I enjoy it, and it doesn't get old.  And it's nothing conscious, it just is.  And I don't think you're "missing" anything except for the feeling that some of us get when we hear fiddle tunes.  But I don't think you could be made to feel that way any more than a person without nicotine receptors could be made to enjoy a cigarette. 

Josh

mworden - Posted - 09/01/2011:  13:37:34

Q: Is it harder to play a banjo tune on a fiddle than it is to play a fiddle tune on a banjo?

banjoak - Posted - 09/01/2011:  19:46:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by mworden

Q: Is it harder to play a banjo tune on a fiddle than it is to play a fiddle tune on a banjo?

---

Yes.

Most fiddle tunes are just tunes (with some similar qualities). While there are some that are really specific to fiddle, most can be played on many different instruments. Most are not particularly unique to fiddle. They can be played solo on a mando, guitar, banjo, hammered dulcimer, piano, tinwhistle, flute... which I'm sure some folks would find equally as boring. Because of they can be played by many instruments, they are great fodder for playing together.

Banjo tunes however represent which I think of as being really designed just for banjo, work great as solo banjo pieces, (like Coal Creek March) would either not sound particularly great on a fiddle or other instrument, or might be difficult, or be of little interest for other melodic players. So they don't get played at jams much (neither do certain solo fiddle pieces).

If a banjo tune can be equally played on them other instruments then it's just called a fiddle tune. Even if it's done as a solo banjo piece (sans fiddle), it's called a fiddle tune.

Edited by - banjoak on 09/01/2011 19:52:38

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 09/01/2011:  22:52:46

I suspect that for many of us, what drew us to the banjo is still part of what we play. We may have branched out, but there is perhaps a core of early repertoire that still sticks with us. That may partly explain the often noted preference for "Round Peak" style. And the overwhelming followings for clawhammer and Scruggs style playing, when there are other styles in both Old Time and Bluegrass. After a number of years in which I played clawhammer almost exclusively, I went back to some of the other styles in Pete Seeger's book. And found them refreshing, like reconnecting with an old friend. Some of us, myself included, came to love banjo through the music of The Kingston Trio, and Pete Seeger. I like fiddle tunes, especially if I get to play them with a fiddler. But if I couldn't sing, I don't know if I would play. We each have our own perspective on what draws us to music, and it's usually a very personal thing. (I don't think high school girls are drawn to banjo players in any significant numbers, but maybe your schools were different than mine?) For me, to a great extent, it's the words. I can't pass up a good story, or a good Cowboy song, or a belly-laugh funny song. I'm the only banjo player I have ever heard play The Allman Brothers' "Les Brers In A Minor" on banjo, but maybe I don't get out enough! Still, there's something about the old stuff that I always come back to. Certain songs are special, like "When You And I were Young, Maggie." For others, the one thing that keeps them coming back is to try to play as good as (Fill in the blank.) Like a golfer trying to improve his scores a few strokes at a time. At some point, the idea of winning matches becomes secondary to beating their own personal best. While that doesn't drive me to play banjo, it may be the driving force for others. "How many beats per minute can you play FMB?"
Paul

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 09/02/2011:  14:46:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

What I said was: "when I listen to a string of fiddle tunes, unless played by a very few exceptional players, after about the 3rd one, they just all sound the same to me and can't hold my attention."

 

My question, which was a sincere question, was what is there that manages to keep your attention tune after tune after tune, with all essentially the same structure and the same arrangement

---

Hi Marc;

A very basic, pertinent question, but to a degree, hard to answer.

Before I take a stab, let me ask you this:

1)  How well do you actually like fiddle tunes themselves as pieces of music?

2)  Are you most often around "groove players" who tend to play the same tune for 10 or 15 minutes straight?

 I am thinking it may be the way in which the tunes are being performed may be leading to your loss of interest.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 09/02/2011 14:49:38