Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/21/2011:  06:55:52

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Besides, the new logo/sticker is extremely cool.

Pig_Eyed_Jackson - Posted - 03/21/2011:  07:22:20

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You guys would argue over which side a bird will fly off a phone wire AND which side is better then the other.

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/21/2011:  12:56:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pig_Eyed_Jackson

You guys would argue over which side a bird will fly off a phone wire AND which side is better then the other.

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Would not!!!!! ;-)

un5trung - Posted - 03/21/2011:  13:40:12

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Would too!!!!

kipperr - Posted - 03/21/2011:  14:03:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pig_Eyed_Jackson

You guys would argue over which side a bird will fly off a phone wire AND which side is better then the other.

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The right side, of course.

xplainer - Posted - 03/21/2011:  14:15:40

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quote:

---

Originally posted by kipperr

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pig_Eyed_Jackson

You guys would argue over which side a bird will fly off a phone wire AND which side is better then the other.

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The right side, of course.

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Kipperr - I knew you would interject your right wing views at some point.

Why does the bird have to fly off the "side"? He could fly up or down off the line.

drew-gurbach - Posted - 03/21/2011:  15:24:34

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Where are "phone" lines anymore anyways? :-)

feldspar1333 - Posted - 03/21/2011:  15:58:29

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Wow! I finally decided to read this thread. It is, without a doubt, the silliest thing I have ever read.
WHAT A BUNCH OF BUSY BODIES! Go join a home-owners association somewhere so you can overzeaously impose your will and silliness on people. As always, just my humble opinion.
I just joined the UNION.
Good grief.

P.S.: I am against being called a "player" as it could be construed as someone who messes around on their wife. I want the T-shirt to say Banjo Pickers Club.

kipperr - Posted - 03/21/2011:  17:37:25

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quote:

---

Originally posted by feldspar1333

Go join a home-owners association somewhere so you can overzeaously impose your will and silliness on people.

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Duh, done that already! Got the T-shirt.

Me and some neighbors executed our "Home Owners Association Putsch" weeks ago.

Bonuscup98 - Posted - 03/21/2011:  18:33:57

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I vote Banjo Junta.

feldspar1333 - Posted - 03/21/2011:  18:46:59

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quote:

---

Originally posted by kipperr

quote:

---

Originally posted by feldspar1333

Go join a home-owners association somewhere so you can overzeaously impose your will and silliness on people.

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Duh, done that already! Got the T-shirt.

Me and some neighbors executed our "Home Owners Association Putsch" weeks ago.

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.... LOL

Brian T - Posted - 03/21/2011:  21:06:52

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Change it.
Change it to Banjo Players Onion.

98% of the "door-knobs" that you have to deal with will never notice.
Consequently, you are required to smile when you poke your finger in their eye.

gdoc - Posted - 03/22/2011:  00:19:35

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Eric,

your damed if you do and damed if you don't. Cought in a pickle this time.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/22/2011:  04:56:05

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gdoc wrote: "your damed if you do and damed if you don't."

I don't read it quite that way. As Eric said, it has been called the Players Union for quite awhile now, without generating hardly a murmur. It is only now, when the current battles in Wisconsin and elsewhere have made public employee unions and unions in general a national political issue, have a handful of folks here suddenly found voice to express their opposition. This is a coy but obvious attempt to make a political statement via the BHO. It doesn't matter whether Eric personally intends it or not, if he caves and removes the word "Union" now, he has allowed the BHO to be used as a political tool by the anti-union forces. I'm not saying that the original poster had that political intent, but at least one of the members posting here is a political activist and a fairly generous financial contributor to conservative candidates. That's his right, of course, but I wish he would leave the BHO alone, and choose somewhere else to pursue his political agenda.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 03/22/2011:  05:25:38

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Again, well articulated, Don.

bluemule_77 - Posted - 03/22/2011:  06:58:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by danielburdett

... we have 8 hour work days and weekends.

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Speak for yerself!

xplainer - Posted - 03/22/2011:  07:09:53

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"...financial contributor to conservative candidates."

How did you find that out about me???

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/24/2011:  06:48:41

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

gdoc wrote: "your damed if you do and damed if you don't."

I don't read it quite that way. As Eric said, it has been called the Players Union for quite awhile now, without generating hardly a murmur. It is only now, when the current battles in Wisconsin and elsewhere have made public employee unions and unions in general a national political issue, have a handful of folks here suddenly found voice to express their opposition. This is a coy but obvious attempt to make a political statement via the BHO. It doesn't matter whether Eric personally intends it or not, if he caves and removes the word "Union" now, he has allowed the BHO to be used as a political tool by the anti-union forces. I'm not saying that the original poster had that political intent, but at least one of the members posting here is a political activist and a fairly generous financial contributor to conservative candidates. That's his right, of course, but I wish he would leave the BHO alone, and choose somewhere else to pursue his political agenda.

---

Opposition to the term "Union" in Banjo Players Union has been voiced on this forum many times in the past. It didn't just come up now as a result of the Wisconsin teachers strike.

the-fish - Posted - 03/24/2011:  08:47:15

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I like it the way it is...

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/24/2011:  09:53:09

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Well, if it is a Players Union then what are the minimum rates, working hours, work rules; who is the union leader, who is the business agent, are the types of music that is performed limited to OT and bluegrass, are the types of banjos limited to certain manufacturers, how long to you play before you get a break, do you get free drinks, how much of the dues goes into a strike fund, how much goes to pay labor management, etc?

un5trung - Posted - 03/24/2011:  11:30:35

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This is the English language, perhaps the richest language in the world, one that has been influenced by countless other languages over the centuries. If you speak other languages, as I do, you'll note that there are far fewer words in those languages than there are in English. Look at the richness of the word "union," below.

The Banjo Players Union member in me likes #4, while the historian in me likes #s 5 and 6. The simple me likes #1, while the happily married me likes #s 2 and 3. All the many and varied definitions of the same word in a very simple dictionary. I wonder how many more meanings are contained in the Oxford English Dictionary?

1. the act of uniting two or more things.
2. the state of being united.
3. something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4. a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
5. a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the Revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
6. the Union. the United States: The Union defeated the Confederacy in 1865.
7. a device emblematic of union, used in a flag or ensign, sometimes occupying the upper corner next to the staff or occupying the entire field.
8. the act of uniting or an instance of being united in marriage or sexual intercourse: an ideal union; an illicit union.
9. an organization of workers; a labor union.
10. Mathematics .
a. Also called join, logical sum, sum. the set consisting of elements each of which is in at least one of two or more given sets. Symbol: #8746;
b. the least upper bound of two elements in a lattice.
11. the process or result of merging or integration of disjoined, severed, or fractured elements, as the healing of a wound or broken bone, the growing together of the parts in a plant graft, the fusion of pieces in a welding process, or the like.
12. the junction or location at which the merging process has taken place.
13. any of various contrivances for connecting parts of machinery or the like.
14. Textiles .
a. a fabric of two kinds of yarn.
b. a yarn of two or more fibers.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/union

stanger - Posted - 03/24/2011:  15:49:47

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Don't change it. The Banjo Hangout has been around long enough to develop it's own traditions, and the Union is one of them.

It has never had anything to do with politics, as political and religious discussions have always been banned here, except for a short time in the Hangout's beginnings. The Player's Union has always been just a way to show a union of common banjo interest in the Hangout's supporters, and a way to display a Union member's support of a non-profit website.

Those banned topics are also a Hangout tradition, and there are many others that have grown up since the beginnings. They are all part of why this is the largest banjo-only site on the net, and all have come from the intent to make this a place where banjo only is the focus.

The Banjo Hangout has never devolved into no-account chat site where everything but the banjo is discussed, and it has never become nothing but a site that has only bitter disputes on politics or life style disagreements, as many of the other similar sites have become. I see that as a very good thing- some of the banjo sites that fostered those elements have gone dark, and many are moribund in comparison to the Hangout.

At the same time, being a Union member a nice way to get some good swag for showing your support. Anyone can contribute to the Hangout without receiving the goodies at any time. I've been a Union member since the beginning of the Union, and I've found wearing the t-shirt at festivals always turns up another Hangout member or two- it's a good and easy way to meet and put a face on the members here. That alone makes this tradition a good one, in my opinion.

Leave it as it is. No one is forced to join or continue to be a Union member. And that's another tradition of the Hangout, too.
regards,
stanger

---

Edited by - stanger on 03/24/2011 15:53:33

bluemule_77 - Posted - 03/24/2011:  18:09:33

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So, stanger... where's your little "shield" icon, eh?

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/24/2011:  18:10:03

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by un5trung

This is the English language, perhaps the richest language in the world, one that has been influenced by countless other languages over the centuries. If you speak other languages, as I do, you'll note that there are far fewer words in those languages than there are in English. Look at the richness of the word "union," below.

The Banjo Players Union member in me likes #4, while the historian in me likes #s 5 and 6. The simple me likes #1, while the happily married me likes #s 2 and 3. All the many and varied definitions of the same word in a very simple dictionary. I wonder how many more meanings are contained in the Oxford English Dictionary?

1. the act of uniting two or more things.
2. the state of being united.
3. something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4. a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
5. a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the Revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
6. the Union. the United States: The Union defeated the Confederacy in 1865.
7. a device emblematic of union, used in a flag or ensign, sometimes occupying the upper corner next to the staff or occupying the entire field.
8. the act of uniting or an instance of being united in marriage or sexual intercourse: an ideal union; an illicit union.
9. an organization of workers; a labor union.
10. Mathematics .
a. Also called join, logical sum, sum. the set consisting of elements each of which is in at least one of two or more given sets. Symbol: #8746;
b. the least upper bound of two elements in a lattice.
11. the process or result of merging or integration of disjoined, severed, or fractured elements, as the healing of a wound or broken bone, the growing together of the parts in a plant graft, the fusion of pieces in a welding process, or the like.
12. the junction or location at which the merging process has taken place.
13. any of various contrivances for connecting parts of machinery or the like.
14. Textiles .
a. a fabric of two kinds of yarn.
b. a yarn of two or more fibers.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/union

---

It's nice to know you speak a lot of languages and that you have access to an English dictionary but even if you included the various meanings of "Union" in those other languages to your extensive list above it wouldn't change the fact that most people would interpret the title "Banjo Union" as a labor union type of organization an many people are repulsed by labor unions.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/24/2011:  18:20:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobbybanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by un5trung

This is the English language, perhaps the richest language in the world, one that has been influenced by countless other languages over the centuries. If you speak other languages, as I do, you'll note that there are far fewer words in those languages than there are in English. Look at the richness of the word "union," below.

The Banjo Players Union member in me likes #4, while the historian in me likes #s 5 and 6. The simple me likes #1, while the happily married me likes #s 2 and 3. All the many and varied definitions of the same word in a very simple dictionary. I wonder how many more meanings are contained in the Oxford English Dictionary?

1. the act of uniting two or more things.
2. the state of being united.
3. something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4. a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
5. a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the Revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
6. the Union. the United States: The Union defeated the Confederacy in 1865.
7. a device emblematic of union, used in a flag or ensign, sometimes occupying the upper corner next to the staff or occupying the entire field.
8. the act of uniting or an instance of being united in marriage or sexual intercourse: an ideal union; an illicit union.
9. an organization of workers; a labor union.
10. Mathematics .
a. Also called join, logical sum, sum. the set consisting of elements each of which is in at least one of two or more given sets. Symbol: #8746;
b. the least upper bound of two elements in a lattice.
11. the process or result of merging or integration of disjoined, severed, or fractured elements, as the healing of a wound or broken bone, the growing together of the parts in a plant graft, the fusion of pieces in a welding process, or the like.
12. the junction or location at which the merging process has taken place.
13. any of various contrivances for connecting parts of machinery or the like.
14. Textiles .
a. a fabric of two kinds of yarn.
b. a yarn of two or more fibers.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/union

---

It's nice to know you speak a lot of languages and that you have access to an English dictionary but even if you included the various meanings of "Union" in those other languages to your extensive list above it wouldn't change the fact that most people would interpret the title "Banjo Union" as a labor union type of organization an many people are repulsed by labor unions.

---

Where exactly did you get access to "most people's personal thoughts and impressions? How would you know what most people would think or feel?

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/24/2011:  19:07:08

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobbybanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by un5trung

This is the English language, perhaps the richest language in the world, one that has been influenced by countless other languages over the centuries. If you speak other languages, as I do, you'll note that there are far fewer words in those languages than there are in English. Look at the richness of the word "union," below.

The Banjo Players Union member in me likes #4, while the historian in me likes #s 5 and 6. The simple me likes #1, while the happily married me likes #s 2 and 3. All the many and varied definitions of the same word in a very simple dictionary. I wonder how many more meanings are contained in the Oxford English Dictionary?

1. the act of uniting two or more things.
2. the state of being united.
3. something formed by uniting two or more things; combination.
4. a number of persons, states, etc., joined or associated together for some common purpose: student union; credit union.
5. a group of states or nations united into one political body, as that of the American colonies at the time of the Revolution, that of England and Scotland in 1707, or that of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
6. the Union. the United States: The Union defeated the Confederacy in 1865.
7. a device emblematic of union, used in a flag or ensign, sometimes occupying the upper corner next to the staff or occupying the entire field.
8. the act of uniting or an instance of being united in marriage or sexual intercourse: an ideal union; an illicit union.
9. an organization of workers; a labor union.
10. Mathematics .
a. Also called join, logical sum, sum. the set consisting of elements each of which is in at least one of two or more given sets. Symbol: #8746;
b. the least upper bound of two elements in a lattice.
11. the process or result of merging or integration of disjoined, severed, or fractured elements, as the healing of a wound or broken bone, the growing together of the parts in a plant graft, the fusion of pieces in a welding process, or the like.
12. the junction or location at which the merging process has taken place.
13. any of various contrivances for connecting parts of machinery or the like.
14. Textiles .
a. a fabric of two kinds of yarn.
b. a yarn of two or more fibers.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/union

---

It's nice to know you speak a lot of languages and that you have access to an English dictionary but even if you included the various meanings of "Union" in those other languages to your extensive list above it wouldn't change the fact that most people would interpret the title "Banjo Union" as a labor union type of organization an many people are repulsed by labor unions.

---

[quote]Originally posted by Marc Nerenberg
Where exactly did you get access to "most people's personal thoughts and impressions? How would you know what most people would think or feel?

---

Please read the post more carefully. I did not say that I had access to most people's personal thoughts and impressions, I said that most people would interpret the title Banjo Union as a labor union type of organization.

danielburdett - Posted - 03/24/2011:  19:27:22

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I would interprete it as a union of folks who like to pick the banjo. That is why I am in favor of the name staying the same.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/24/2011:  19:29:08

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quote:

---

Originally posted by bobbybanjo

Please read the post more carefully. I did not say that I had access to most people's personal thoughts and impressions, I said that most people would interpret the title Banjo Union as a labor union type of organization.

---

I read perfectly carefully in the first place, and understood exactly what you said. You said: "most people would interpret the title Banjo Union as a labor union type of organization".

My question to you is: how would you know how most people would interpret anything?

Having the ability to know how most people would interpret something would clearly imply that you somehow have access to most people's personal thoughts and impressions so that you could predict how they would interpret something.

Or do you have some other technique of knowing how most people would react to the name Banjo Union?

Perhaps you're projecting your own opinion to be that of most people, but I certainly can't tell how you can purport to speak with such authority as to what most people's interpretation would be.

You might be able to guess what some people's interpretation might be ... but where do you find the authority to speak for most people?

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/24/2011 19:32:53

Paul R - Posted - 03/24/2011:  20:33:47

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So, would you change Banjo Players "Union" to Banjo Players "Confederacy". I thought that issue was settled long ago.

I'm for the Union. Always was.

Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/24/2011:  20:36:28

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quote:
________________________________________________________________________________________
Originally posted by bobbybanjo

I said that most people would interpret the title Banjo Union as a labor union type of organization.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

It occurs to me that perhaps you've done a survey!

Of course...that must be how you know how most people would interpret the words "banjo players' union"!

Then, of course, I would wonder about the methodology of your survey.

Exactly what questions were asked?

How was your sample selected?

Were they a good cross section of the world population, with a good distribution by region?

(When you said "most" people, I assume you meant most people in the world...or was I wrong about that?
Did you really just mean most people in your country?
...or region?
...or state?
...or county?
...or town?
...or neighbourhood?
...or your block?
..or perhaps your living room?)

Until you can explain how it is that you can divine what is going on on the minds of "most" people, I think you ought to desist from purporting to speak for them.

Your opinion is your opinion..."most" people may or may not share it.

---

Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/24/2011 20:43:11

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 03/25/2011:  07:09:01

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Now I'm confused all this innuendo, linguistic contrivances and statistical representations....

Is a banjo union is a type of pipe fitting?

Is a labour movement the "push" activity during birth contractions?

Unfortunately I’m barred from joining the banjo players union; being a subject of her Royal Highness, Tee shirts are banned apparel - Unlike you guys in the United States we don't have the right to bare arms.

rgds
Chris
p.s 100% of those questioned agreed with the above comments. I polled, me, myself & I :)

---

Edited by - plunknplinkntwang on 03/25/2011 07:10:04

stanger - Posted - 03/25/2011:  16:39:36

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quote:

---

Originally posted by bluemule_77

So, stanger... where's your little "shield" icon, eh?

---

Beats me... I think I'm paid up until the 30th. I haven't renewed yet.
Thanks for the black eye, Eric....
regards,
stanger

schlange - Posted - 03/25/2011:  16:44:04

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Your membership expired on 3/20, Mike. :-) You should have received an email or two to that effect?

Vapor - Posted - 03/25/2011:  17:27:45

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I just have to jump in here. I have had people look at me and make jokes because I play the BANJO. In Wisconsin, you are an oddity if you play the banjo. Some people find it very interesting, some bizarre, and you know what some think, referring to a classic film.

The term players, well we have all kinds of meanings for PLAYERS out there.

Hangout, does this denote a gang, because gangs have their hangouts. Are we children, and go hide in our secret hangout. Or do we go hangout with friends.

And then we get to the word UNION. And again, there are all sorts of associations, just as the other words above.

I have thick skin, and I can take whatever you can dish, believe me on that. I have had everything you can imagine thrown at me about the banjo, but I have yet to hear one person talk about the union portion of this name.

I am thinking we are making a mountain out of a molehill. I proudly have my stickers on my cases, my truck (Yup, a real 4 wheel drive gas guzzling SOB, it works with the banjo). And I defy anyone to question me. It is not a labor union, it is a union of like minded individuals, who share a common interest, and should be proud of themselves for their ability to come togather in a "Union" of likemindedness.

This site is a celebration of that unity we share. It's success is because of all of us. So in effect it is a marriage of all of our talents, likes, dislikes, disagreements, but then in the end, it unites us, so how can it be called anything but a "UNION".

Just my humble opinion.

Please Eric, Let me continue to be a member of the BANJO PLAYERS UNION.

Charlie

---

Edited by - Vapor on 03/25/2011 17:28:13

BanjoFlyboy - Posted - 03/25/2011:  17:34:57

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If it ain't broke don't fix it. Political correctness need not apply. If it offends some people then tough #*@^&! I learned a long time ago, you can't please everyone. I joined the Banjo Player's Union. End of story.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/27/2011:  12:03:02

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BanjoFlyBoy

You said it - in spades.

If the politically correct are so offended by words that have more than one usage, perhaps they should not get involved in forms of communication that involve understanding the English language - ie text forums. Or perhaps they should make their points with the collection of Smilies..

minstrelmike - Posted - 03/27/2011:  12:06:06

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If you're trying to sell something to the general public, 'political correctness' or whatever you want to call pandering to the cultural norms of the peoples you are selling to _is_ a primary consideration.

Whether you dislike (or like) their norms is irrelevant.

davidtoc - Posted - 03/27/2011:  15:19:43

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Me, I'm just here to play the banjo.

feldspar1333 - Posted - 03/27/2011:  15:34:43

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What does any of this have to do with "political correctness"?
Let's get this straight please.... this has to do with utter silliness.

"I'm not joining the Banjo Players Union until you change tha name!" Good grief. (I am picturing people stomping their feetand sticking outtheir lower lip as they say this.)

Thanks to this thread, I just got my BHO Union T-shirt in the mail yesterday! So some good has come out of it.....
Thanks Herr Schlange.

feldspar1333 - Posted - 03/27/2011:  20:09:01

---

Sorry about the last post.... upon re-reading it, I find it was unneccessarily harsh. People are, of course, entitled to their opinions. I was having "a moment".

bluegrass 22 - Posted - 03/28/2011:  00:58:00

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who in the hell are these correct people any way our political prosess our isen't anything to brag abought hell i can't even spell it lol

Mountain Blue - Posted - 03/29/2011:  01:01:53

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Right-leaning, flag waving, rebel child here and I like the name as it is. Please don't change it....

And as far political correctness goes, those concerns only come from the left. Wanting to change the name of the Players Union is not political correctness, but more akin to reverse political correctness. I still don't think it is a good idea.

Besides, what could it hurt to have a union sticker on your instrument case, when handing your precious cargo to airline workers who are by and large union members?

country frank - Posted - 03/29/2011:  05:06:49

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What piffle.

A Union indicates the coming together and organising of likeminded people.

Jeezzz, here in the UK it is becoming ESSENTIAL to be in a union, especially in these harsh and straightened times.

Proud UNION member.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/29/2011:  05:53:54

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According to the polls, union popularity is declining rapidly and many people increasingly feel that unions are irreverent in today's world. Union membership has been declining since the1950's and in 2008 unions lost 771,000 members and in 2009 they lost 612,000. In a few years union shirts are going to be collector's items like prewar Gibsons so you getter get them now, while you can!

un5trung - Posted - 03/29/2011:  08:32:43

---

Ahh, now it's predicting the future. Reading peoples minds (the polls you quote still don't suggest what connotation people relate to the term "union"), prognostication, you got it all!

History suggests that prognostication is more often an expression of political goals rather than a clear, unbiased examination of the facts. Look at what people were predicting in the 1920s -- the Great Depression doesn't figure into it. And as often as not editorials in the 1930s predicted that war was not on the horizon, or that if it did come it would not affect the US. Some of these editorials were written by isolationists, some by people who felt that American involvement in WWI was a mistake, and others actively supported the cause of fascism. In other words most of these prognostications were either predicated on or actively promoting a political cause.

When I was a graduate student a professor taught a very popular "history of the future" course, and the class that covered wacky predictions was very funny. Although he was a respected scholar of European intellectual history and was =very= familiar with books that describe a future society he eventually decided to write just such a book himself. Part of the book dealt with the future of the Soviet Union and of US/USSR relations. Between the time it went to the publishers and the time it rolled off the presses the wall had fallen; the USSR was effectively kaput. And this is a a guy who actually knew what he was talking about, who had no axe to grind.

But one doesn't need to be an historian to recognize that we mere humans don't know what the future will bring. Bobby your anti-union political axe is grinding away but it can't help you read peoples minds or predict the future.

Banjo Players Union is a great name, and I'm proudly a member.

This thread is too silly for words! I think I'll leave it to the rest of you to hash out the implications of mind reading and prognostication -- I'm outta here!

bobbybanjo - Posted - 03/29/2011:  09:33:46

---

quote:

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Originally posted by un5trung

Ahh, now it's predicting the future. Reading peoples minds (the polls you quote still don't suggest what connotation people relate to the term "union"), prognostication, you got it all!

History suggests that prognostication is more often an expression of political goals rather than a clear, unbiased examination of the facts. Look at what people were predicting in the 1920s -- the Great Depression doesn't figure into it. And as often as not editorials in the 1930s predicted that war was not on the horizon, or that if it did come it would not affect the US. Some of these editorials were written by isolationists, some by people who felt that American involvement in WWI was a mistake, and others actively supported the cause of fascism. In other words most of these prognostications were either predicated on or actively promoting a political cause.

When I was a graduate student a professor taught a very popular "history of the future" course, and the class that covered wacky predictions was very funny. Although he was a respected scholar of European intellectual history and was =very= familiar with books that describe a future society he eventually decided to write just such a book himself. Part of the book dealt with the future of the Soviet Union and of US/USSR relations. Between the time it went to the publishers and the time it rolled off the presses the wall had fallen; the USSR was effectively kaput. And this is a a guy who actually knew what he was talking about, who had no axe to grind.

But one doesn't need to be an historian to recognize that we mere humans don't know what the future will bring. Bobby your anti-union political axe is grinding away but it can't help you read peoples minds or predict the future.

Banjo Players Union is a great name, and I'm proudly a member.

This thread is too silly for words! I think I'll leave it to the rest of you to hash out the implications of mind reading and prognostication -- I'm outta here!

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You are criticizing the messenger because you don't like the message.




Here is a link: economics.about.com/od/laborin...cline.htm

The changing conditions of the 1980s and 1990s undermined the position of organized labor, which now represented a shrinking share of the work force. While more than one-third of employed people belonged to unions in 1945, union membership fell to 24.1 percent of the U.S. work force in 1979 and to 13.9 percent in 1998. Dues increases, continuing union contributions to political campaigns, and union members' diligent voter-turnout efforts kept unions' political power from ebbing as much as their membership. But court decisions and National Labor Relations Board rulings allowing workers to withhold the portion of their union dues used to back, or oppose, political candidates, undercut unions' influence.

Management, feeling the heat of foreign and domestic competition, is today less willing to accede to union demands for higher wages and benefits than in earlier decades. It also is much more aggressive about fighting unions' attempts to organize workers. Strikes were infrequent in the 1980s and 1990s, as employers became more willing to hire strikebreakers when unions walk out and to keep them on the job when the strike was over. (They were emboldened in that stance when President Ronald Reagan in 1981 fired illegally striking air traffic controllers employed by the Federal Aviation Administration.)

Automation is a continuing challenge for union members. Many older factories have introduced labor-saving automated machinery to perform tasks previously handled by workers. Unions have sought, with limited success, a variety of measures to protect jobs and incomes: free retraining, shorter workweeks to share the available work among employees, and guaranteed annual incomes.

The shift to service industry employment, where unions traditionally have been weaker, also has been a serious problem for labor unions. Women, young people, temporary and part-time workers -- all less receptive to union membership -- hold a large proportion of the new jobs created in recent years. And much American industry has migrated to the southern and western parts of the United States, regions that have a weaker union tradition than do the northern or the eastern regions.

As if these difficulties were not enough, years of negative publicity about corruption in the big Teamsters Union and other unions have hurt the labor movement. Even unions' past successes in boosting wages and benefits and improving the work environment have worked against further gains by making newer, younger workers conclude they no longer need unions to press their causes. Union arguments that they give workers a voice in almost all aspects of their jobs, including work-site safety and work grievances, are often ignored. The kind of independent-minded young workers who sparked the dramatic rise of high-technology computer firms have little interest in belonging to organizations that they believe quash independence.

Perhaps the biggest reason unions faced trouble in recruiting new members in the late 1990s, however, was the surprising strength of the economy. In October and November 1999, the unemployment rate had fallen to 4.1 percent. Economists said only people who were between jobs or chronically unemployed were out of work. For all the uncertainties economic changes had produced, the abundance of jobs restored confidence that America was still a land of opportunity.


Here is another link: nhregister.com/articles/2011/0...12111.txt

WASHINGTON (AP) — The nation’s labor unions saw another steep decline in membership last year, even as the economy showed signs of recovery and job losses slowed.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday that unions lost 612,000 members in 2010, dropping the unionized share of the work force to 11.9 percent from 12.3 percent in 2009. That follows a loss of 771,000 workers in 2008, continuing a steady decline from the 1950s, when more than a third of workers belonged to unions.

Union membership in the private sector fell from 7.2 percent to 6.9 percent, a low point not seen since the infancy of the labor movement in the 1930s.

The steepest decline was seen in the construction industry.

Public employment unions saw a 1.2 percent decline, mostly from job cuts among state and local government workers.

Those unions could see further declines this year, as states eliminate jobs in an effort to make up multibillion-dollar budget deficits.

“In the absence of federal support for state and local governments, public sector cutbacks will continue to depress the overall union membership rate,” said Ben Zipperer, a senior research associate of the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Kate Bronfenbrenner, director of labor education research at Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations, said unions could stem the decline if the economy continues to expand and jobs grow in areas where union density is strong, such as transportation and the service sector. She warned that unions need to spend more resources on organizing new workers, even as they try to pass legislation that would make it easier to form unions.

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 03/29/2011:  10:03:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by bobbybanjo

According to the polls, union popularity is declining rapidly and many people increasingly feel that unions are irreverent in today's world.

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Polls, schmolls, I think we need all the irreverance we can get in today's world.

kipperr - Posted - 03/29/2011:  10:40:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sultans of Claw

quote:

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Originally posted by bobbybanjo

According to the polls, union popularity is declining rapidly and many people increasingly feel that unions are irreverent in today's world.

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Polls, schmolls, I think we need all the irreverance we can get in today's world.

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Spoken like a true P,T & M.

Preach on brother, preach on.

Mike Greylak - Posted - 03/29/2011:  10:48:13

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someone just looked at my case, last week, with the union sticker on it and said: Union what's that, told him I just support BHO,
He said why don't they call it banjo supporter. I don't like the union label but supporter is even worse.