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Jazz Country - Posted - 03/17/2011: 10:38:47
Ken,
Let us know how your transcribing helps to broaden your musical horizons. I'd be interested in hearing your perspective.
Larry
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/17/2011: 10:41:54
I've never seen anybody shouted down.
What I've seen is some professional players and veteran posters try to shout down opinions they disagree with, using ad hominem attacks and then getting ticked off when others point out that the ability to play is not the same as the ability to teach or to think or to express yourself on-line. (I call it the Usenet God syndrome because it happens on -every- on-line bbs site).
Making your point is one thing.
Trying to destroy someone else's point is a completely different thing. And the basic truth is that even if the other point is wrong, that doesn't mean yours is right.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/17/2011: 19:47:19
quote:
Originally posted by Jazz Country
Ken,
Let us know how your transcribing helps to broaden your musical horizons. I'd be interested in hearing your perspective.
Larry
Thanks for your interest Larry I will do that. Your 2 posts on 3/13 were gems that will get printed and put in my notebook. I have my paper filled with segments of 5 lines each. Already I have found I have to listen more and with more concentration to get it exact. I have seen that there may be other possibilities and wonder why this way was taken, I have seen some notes -even though they are all of equal time duration are grouped differently. I have a hunch as I have been told that after a lot of this I may see patterns emerge. And that if I start seeing the patterns often enough, they will come into my head before I play the note. That is my thought: we will see.
It is tedious. I have to often give it up and leave it and come back to it. But if this doesn't make my ear better, nothing will.
Someone in posting in opposition to the idea of transcribing and learning note for note had asked how players under the age of 40 now learn. the implication was that this was old school and not needed with new technology. I was looking through old BNL (Oct. 2008) for answers and found that Chris Pandolfi (Infamous Stringdusters ) after moving to Nashville and upon the urging of both Ben Eldridge and Tom Adams to "check out Scruggs" did so. Pandolfi then said "I really got into Scruggs, transcribing stuff note for note."
Thanks again Larry,
Ken
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/18/2011: 12:49:55
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
I've never seen anybody shouted down.
What I've seen is some professional players and veteran posters try to shout down opinions they disagree with, using ad hominem attacks and then getting ticked off when others point out that the ability to play is not the same as the ability to teach or to think or to express yourself on-line. (I call it the Usenet God syndrome because it happens on -every- on-line bbs site).
Making your point is one thing.
Trying to destroy someone else's point is a completely different thing. And the basic truth is that even if the other point is wrong, that doesn't mean yours is right.
Mike,
I guess perception is everything so I respond by how I see things and understand that is my perception. I have not walked on water
so I can make no claims of being absolutely correct.
But from my perspective from my life experiences, it has always been beneficial for me to get around the people I felt were the best at what I wanted to do. I believed that it is a cause and effect world and quality/excellence doesn't just happen. It is the result of enlightened thoughts and hard work. Most of the time when I have access to people of excellence and achievement I have found if I can learn some of their thoughts, those thoughts will help me to grow.
I have also found high achievers to appear to be black and white. They aren't into experimentation or theory but they are into using what they know to build something. They have been down many roads and have found their answers. They have no need for experimenting: what they have is working and so they are not into the abstract or conceptual. Usually they have little patience for it. They often want to see some pretty good credentials from someone to consider new concepts. For example, I don't think Coach Knight would be a good man to banter coaching theories with unless you were Joe Paterno. So in being around these people and in trying to get what I needed, I was more concerned with content than process.
Several of the people that I have perceived to be of excellence/achievement on the hangout have often been, if not shouted down, then nit picked to death by theorists with poor credentials, who have never made it to a high level, or brought anyone to a high level. So sometimes their responses come out as being curt, but sometimes they are very gracious. As I said before the Ron Stewart example was an unfortunate example of this.
Mike: difference in philosophy and or perception? At least I can say I hope the snow is melting and spring is coming in Colorado. (But I hope you are not a skier and I have not offended you! Such are the dangers in the written online world.)
Ken
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/18/2011: 13:08:39
Nitpicked to death is easily avoided by not dealing with the nits.
I hear the same complaints from the Usenet Gods.
Somehow, their inability to easily defend their absolutely-correct-idea from nits is the reason they have to leave the forum or the reason the culture is going downhill.
I don't buy it. Ideas ain't people. A good idea is a good idea regardless of the goodness or experience of the person presenting it.
Same with bad ideas and 'common wisdom' that really isn't how things work.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/18/2011: 13:27:29
We have a difference in opinion or perception. My thought would be that an idea is just an idea, but facts are established with repeated testing and consistent results.
Yes nitpicking is easily avoidable. As I said before, the better players are removing themselves from us Nits and we will be left with the blind leading the blind. There will be some fun banter and some intriguing ideas but I am afraid the proven facts that we can build solidly upon will be less and less.
Important: do you want the snow to go, or do you want June skiing?
Ken
Roy G. Biv - Posted - 03/18/2011: 14:51:34
This all reminds me of my bass playing days, when I would "hangout" on talkbass.com. A famous jazz player of electric bass, Jeff Berlin, posted some thoughts on the forum about he learned to improvise. Several people pestered him continuously, disagreeing with him about his methods. Eventually Jeff stopped posting because it wasn't worth it, even though everybody on the site except for the 4 or 5 "pesterers" really appreciated his words and asked him to stay. Sound familiar to anybody?
I'm not an expert. I'm not even a novice. I understand that after 2 years of playing banjo off and on, I don't have all the answers. How to get the answers, however, seems like the simplest thing in the world. You ask (and listen to) someone who has been playing for longer than you and sounds way better than you. Treat those people with respect, and their advice like treasure. Why in the world would anyone want to take advice on playing BG from someone who can't? Make all the lame sports coach analogies you want to. Sure, not all the best players make the best teachers, but you have to be a good player to be a good teacher, and if you can play in the first place, you have no business teaching anyone.
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/18/2011: 15:43:43
On the internet, anyone can chime in.
If you can't handle other folks not appreciating that your answer is the only one, then you have to leave.
If you think everyone has to agree with everything you say, then someone has to leave.
If your opinion can tolerate other diverse opinions, then you can probably have a discussion on the internet.
The value of BHO isn't in finding the one true answer;; it is finding the multitude of different things that worked for different people. And when some pundit -has- to defend his opinion from all others, it thwarts discussion and that ain't the fault of the folks who have different opinions.
Facts are completely different from opinions and if you think you have facts, then argue them.
But you don't have to necessarily be a good picker to be a good teacher. Quarterbacks have coaches. To be a good teacher, you need to know something that will help the student. That's the main requirement.
And not all good pickers are good teachers any more than all good quarterbacks are good quarterback coaches.
If you don't like the sports metaphors, well too bad. I see banjo-playing as a skill which means coaching is as important as learning knowledge. And people who cannot explain their knowledge are pretty much useless as teachers too although they can be wonderful performers.
Different skills require different skill sets. That isn't an opinion.
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/18/2011: 16:37:09
Respect is a two-way street.
The vast majority of give and take on BHO is entirely respectful. People of different ability levels exchanging ideas, recounting personal experiences, revealing their own frustrations and their efforts to improve. It's banjo banter. Few original posters solicit responses only from experts. In fact, sometimes it is a less-experienced player who can empathize more closely with the problem at hand, having recently struggled with it personally -- and maybe even have found a way to overcome it.
Similarly, the vast majority of exchanges between amateurs and pros on BHO is also entirely respectful, with the pros' input universally appreciated. It may be questioned by those trying to better understand, or because it conflicts with what we've been taught by other respected professionals, but that often leads to more clarity, not anything negative.
However, on occasion, a discussion will be ongoing between average members when -- BOOM! -- out of nowhere, an "expert" descends, waving a resume, and blasts a few of us for being completely "misinformed" and believing something that "no real banjo player" would ever consider. Such an "expert" once challenged me to post "a cut from a commercially available recording you performed on ... within the next 48 hours" or, basically, shut up. Why? Because I cited something from Earl Scruggs' book contrary to what he was saying. It wasn't even my opinion.
Must we "treat those people with respect, and their advice like treasure"? In such cases, I do not post in order to wangle a free personal lesson from a professional. I have my own teacher, a teacher I respect, like, and to whom I am very grateful. And I, for one, can get a little testy when, not only am I told that what my teacher has been teaching me (which works for me) is a bunch of crap, but also my teacher gets personally slammed, too.
If BHO wants to create an "Ask the Expert" forum, great. But much of this site, and much of its joy, is about shared experiences. Finding companions on the journey. As the name implies, we're just hanging out. If an "expert" wants to hang out with us, he should show some respect, too.
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/18/2011: 17:32:38
quote:
Originally posted by Roy G. Biv
... How to get the answers, however, seems like the simplest thing in the world. You ask (and listen to) someone who has been playing for longer than you and sounds way better than you. Treat those people with respect, and their advice like treasure.
Why in the world would anyone want to take advice on playing BG from someone who can't?
Make all the lame sports coach analogies you want to. Sure, not all the best players make the best teachers, but you have to be a good player to be a good teacher, and if you can play in the first place, you have no business teaching anyone.
Mr. "Biv",
You wrote:
"How to get the answers, however, seems like the simplest thing in the world. You ask (and listen to) someone who has been playing for longer than you and sounds way better than you...(I assume you meant to type:)
"...and if you can't play in the first place, you have no business teaching anyone."BINGO! You've hit the nail right square on the head with those three sentences.
-Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/18/2011: 17:52:44
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
If BHO wants to create an "Ask the Expert" forum, great.
Rich, that is an absolutely brilliant idea!
Could you please ask Eric if he could set up two BHO forums:
1) "
Expert Playing Advice: Bluegrass (Scruggs) Styles"
2) "
Non-Expert Playing Advice: Bluegrass (Scruggs) Styles"
I'm very glad that we can finally agree on something.
-Dave
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/18/2011: 18:09:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Could you please ask Eric if he could set up two BHO forums
Any other errands you would like me to run for you, Dave? Shine your shoes? Take out your trash?
Or is it that Eric and you no longer are on speaking terms, after so many of your bombastic posts had to be deleted?
Man, your officiousness is getting so tiresome.
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/18/2011: 18:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Could you please ask Eric if he could set up two BHO forums
Any other errands you would like me to run for you, Dave? Shine your shoes? Take out your trash?
Or is it that Eric and you no longer are on speaking terms, after so many of your bombastic posts had to be deleted?
Man, your officiousness is getting so tiresome.
Rich,
There you go again...
I sincerely complimented you on a truly brilliant idea, and said how much I agreed with you about it.
I even put a smiley-face on my note, and you still call me names.
-Dave
p.s. I do appreciate your kind offer to shine my shoes. How good are you at it?
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/18/2011: 18:58:29
Weeee doggies! You guys are fun. 
Well, I'm off to do some woodshedding now. Perhaps a little Lonesome River Band tonight. Sammy's got some killer licks I'd like to nick. Y'all have fun and play nice now, ya hear?
JW
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/18/2011: 19:24:20
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
On the internet, anyone can chime in.
If you can't handle other folks not appreciating that your answer is the only one, then you have to leave.
If you think everyone has to agree with everything you say, then someone has to leave.
If your opinion can tolerate other diverse opinions, then you can probably have a discussion on the internet.
The value of BHO isn't in finding the one true answer;; it is finding the multitude of different things that worked for different people. And when some pundit -has- to defend his opinion from all others, it thwarts discussion and that ain't the fault of the folks who have different opinions.
Facts are completely different from opinions and if you think you have facts, then argue them.
But you don't have to necessarily be a good picker to be a good teacher. Quarterbacks have coaches. To be a good teacher, you need to know something that will help the student. That's the main requirement.
And not all good pickers are good teachers any more than all good quarterbacks are good quarterback coaches.
If you don't like the sports metaphors, well too bad. I see banjo-playing as a skill which means coaching is as important as learning knowledge. And people who cannot explain their knowledge are pretty much useless as teachers too although they can be wonderful performers.
Different skills require different skill sets. That isn't an opinion.
Mike,
You said, "Facts are completely different from opinions and if you think you have facts, then argue them."
In my opinion the good players that come here don't need to argue their opinion. They are here (in a dwindling number) because they love the banjo and want to help. Why do they have to argue to help? They can go have their own group and have quality hassle free interactions with peers.
Your statement "And not all good pickers are good teachers any more than all good quarterbacks are good quarterback coaches." is true.
However your statement IMHO "But you don't have to necessarily be a good picker to be a good teacher.," is mostly false. Almost every good teacher I know is a good picker. Name me a skype teacher here on the hangout that is not a good picker. Name me somebody that has put on a chat room workshop that is not a good picker. How about the national level teachers Janet Davis, Pete Wernick, Tony Trishka, Bill Evans, Jack Hatfield, Earl Scruggs, Murphy & Casey Henry, Ross Nickerson, Pete Seeger? They are all outstanding players.
I believe this is because all good pickers have accurate working knowledge and if you have accurate working knowledge you will be a good picker. As I expressed before, IMO being good doesn't just happen. Having that accurate working knowledge is essential to being a good teacher. Part of being "a good teacher" may be relating to the student or communication skills but more important for the student if he wants to learn is relating to the teacher so he can profit from the teachers exceptional insights. You can have all the periphery teaching skills you want but if you don't have the knowledge than you wind up just being a good friend able to offer condolences to a practitioner that doesn't succeed.
Somebody mentioned Charlie Lau the great hitting coach was only a .255 hitter? (was that you RichW?). I want to point out that Charlie Lau was hitting in a time when baseball was America's #1 sport and in a time when there were only 16 major league teams. It was much tougher to be a major leaguer than then it is now. Put Charlie Lau in today's inflated Major Leagues and he is a multi millionaire and his average is up at least 20 - 30 points. But even if you debate that you can't debate that Charlie Lau was a Major League ball player. IN other words, he was a player. (That was just fun talk. I have his book The Art of Hitting .300 - a great work).
Mike you said, "Different skills require different skill sets. That isn't an opinion." You will get no disagreement from me on that. (whew, its just so nice to get along
). But I think you will agree that if you are going to teach or play banjo effectively, you must know banjo.
Ken
PS Mike you have ducked the issue. I have several times asked you about snow and spring skiing and YOU have not responded.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/18/2011: 19:25:28
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
Weeee doggies! You guys are fun.
Well, I'm off to do some woodshedding now. Perhaps a little Lonesome River Band tonight. Sammy's got some killer licks I'd like to nick. Y'all have fun and play nice now, ya hear?
JW
HOW DARE YOU!!!
Ken
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/18/2011: 21:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Somebody mentioned Charlie Lau the great hitting coach was only a .255 hitter? (was that you RichW?). I want to point out that Charlie Lau was hitting in a time when baseball was America's #1 sport and in a time when there were only 16 major league teams. It was much tougher to be a major leaguer than then it is now. Put Charlie Lau in today's inflated Major Leagues and he is a multi millionaire and his average is up at least 20 - 30 points. But even if you debate that you can't debate that Charlie Lau was a Major League ball player. IN other words, he was a player. (That was just fun talk. I have his book The Art of Hitting .300 - a great work).
Yes, that was me. My point was: apparently, you don't have to be able to hit .300 yourself in order to teach others how to hit .300.
But, as a general rule, I agree with you: You shouldn't teach what you haven't yet mastered yourself. That doesn't mean you can't have information, opinions, or experiences worth relating. "You say you're having a problem with X? I had a problem with X, too. My teacher told me to do Y. I tried it and it worked for me. Maybe it will work for you." In my book, that's not "teaching."
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/18/2011: 21:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Somebody mentioned Charlie Lau the great hitting coach was only a .255 hitter? (was that you RichW?). I want to point out that Charlie Lau was hitting in a time when baseball was America's #1 sport and in a time when there were only 16 major league teams. It was much tougher to be a major leaguer than then it is now. Put Charlie Lau in today's inflated Major Leagues and he is a multi millionaire and his average is up at least 20 - 30 points. But even if you debate that you can't debate that Charlie Lau was a Major League ball player. IN other words, he was a player. (That was just fun talk. I have his book The Art of Hitting .300 - a great work).
Yes, that was me. My point was: apparently, you don't have to be able to hit .300 yourself in order to teach others how to hit .300.
But, as a general rule, I agree with you: You shouldn't teach what you haven't yet mastered yourself. That doesn't mean you can't have information, opinions, or experiences worth relating. "You say you're having a problem with X? I had a problem with X, too. My teacher told me to do Y. I tried it and it worked for me. Maybe it will work for you." In my book, that's not "teaching."
I agree with all but just to talk more about Lau - maybe the reason he didn't hit .330 was that he was blessed with as much fast twitch muscle or quite the eye sight. everything else was probably there. Nothing different from what you are saying.
Ken
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/18/2011: 22:50:02
If there is no copying, then there is no style/genre. You HAVE to copy otherwise, what do you have? You have something with no foundation in the
very thing you are trying to do. Moreover, these very stylistic characteristics are the things that often attract one to the instrument. They want it to sound like bluegrass, and not some generic banjo player that just so happened to cross over from the guitar.
This idea that creativity doesn't come from others?...You take from what you hear, what experiences you have and appropriate all of that into your own being. People are influenced by that and it DOES effect their ability to CREATE, which is what creativity IS. So, I disagree, others do help you generate creativity in a round about way. The whole history of music and sounds has a great deal to do with ones Creativity. I sure as heck couldn't conceptualize the things I do now without Earl Scruggs and Bill Keith. Without them, my ability to be "creative" would be less. Perhaps given enough time I would discover said techniques on my own?...but I doubt it. The guy that first sat down and figured out the major scale effected your creativity just the same.
Other peoples IDEAS give you IDEAS, a new way to think. A way to think about things that perhaps you didn't before. Before you heard this person, you didn't not think about such things. Thus they have affected your creativity.
Melody is also not the only thing that distinguishes one lick from another-dont forget rhythm. I can play the same exact notes in a different rhythm and it is a new "lick." Or I can start on a different beat.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 03/18/2011 23:00:54
phb - Posted - 03/19/2011: 04:22:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
You wrote:
"How to get the answers, however, seems like the simplest thing in the world. You ask (and listen to) someone who has been playing for longer than you and sounds way better than you...
(I assume you meant to type:) "...and if you can't play in the first place, you have no business teaching anyone."
BINGO! You've hit the nail right square on the head with those three sentences.
-Dave
Dave, may I remind you of a posting of yours:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Hi,
PHB wrote:
"Try forming the chord in the air before putting the hand down on the fingerboard. Do this in super-slomo, you won't be able to do it faster at the beginning anyway. If that is too difficult, just put down the fingers in your usual way and then try lifting them maintaining the structure. Check whether you succeeded by putting the fingers back down on the fingerboard and seeing whether the chord still sounds right. Also practice chord changes this way."
In my experience, PHB is right on the money.
When I used to teach banjo, a lot of students had trouble with making chords quickly.
I starting observing more closely how I made chords, and realized that I made the chord in mid-air, before I touched the banjo neck.
I gave the same advice to my students that PHB offered.
Apparently people who cannot play all too well can give good advice. I mean, it must be good advice if even you agree...
phb - Posted - 03/19/2011: 04:36:53
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
If there is no copying, then there is no style/genre. You HAVE to copy otherwise, what do you have? You have something with no foundation in the very thing you are trying to do.
I agree to all you wrote. Personally I wouldn't want to restrict myself to playing something exactly the way it was played and recorded once. I do see the value of transcribing and trying to play exactly what was played as an exercise and a learning tool, though. However, I'd like to add this metaphor to what you wrote: you develop your own style and express your own creativity by first selecting stuff that catches your interest for some reason. You try to figure out what it is and why it appeals you. So far you haven't done anything creative. You do once you try to wander off from this particular lick and try to create something with it or derive a similar lick over a different chord a.s.o. It is like a group of floor tilers starting in the same place. They keep adding floor tiles to what is already their at places they like without actually looking where they are heading. They all connect to the same starting place but head into different directions without knowing where they will end up. They need not end up in a place where nobody had ever been before but they went their own way.
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/19/2011: 05:58:16
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
This idea that creativity doesn't come from others?...You take from what you hear, what experiences you have and appropriate all of that into your own being. People are influenced by that and it DOES effect their ability to CREATE, which is what creativity IS. So, I disagree, others do help you generate creativity in a round about way. The whole history of music and sounds has a great deal to do with ones Creativity. I sure as heck couldn't conceptualize the things I do now without Earl Scruggs and Bill Keith. Without them, my ability to be "creative" would be less.
John Hartford is a good illustration of this. Who spent more time with Earl Scruggs, soaking in everything about Earl's style and technique, than John? And then he went off and developed a style which was radically different. Yet he still credited Earl with teaching him most of what he learned about playing the banjo.
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/19/2011: 09:08:46
Open letter to Eric Schlange.
Hi Eric,
I believe that we may have come up with a solution to a big problem facing the BHO.
There seems to have been a major exodus of many skilled players from the BHO who had a great deal to offer to less-knowledgeable players, but felt that their expertise was overwhelmed by disrespectful nitpicking and uninformed opinions.
I’ve heard that Ron Stewart and John Kuhn left not long ago, and more recently John Boulding stopped posting here.
Here is a way to get some of these knowledgeable players to come back to the BHO.
To give credit where it is due, the germ of this idea originally came from MinstrelMike and Rich Weill:
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
If BHO wants to create an "Ask the Expert" forum, great.
and
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
The value of BHO isn't in finding the one true answer;; it is finding the multitude of different things that worked for different people. And when some pundit -has- to defend his opinion from all others, it thwarts discussion and that ain't the fault of the folks who have different opinions. Facts are completely different from opinions…
I agree with MinstrelMike’s statement “facts are completely different from opinions”.
It may very well be that one of the main reasons so many excellent players refuse to post on the BHO anymore is because they feel that the
fact of their extensive playing and/or teaching experience is too often disregarded and overwhelmed by uninformed
opinions of those who have little or no such experience themselves.
Based on the comments of MinstrelMike and Rich Weill above, it would seem that the best solution would be to have two forums-- one that is fact-based, and one that is opinion-based.
Suggested Solution:
1) Rename this forum as: "
Expert Playing Advice:Bluegrass (Scruggs) Styles", and require that anyone posting here claiming expertise must provide some
factual evidence of his/her ability to competently play and/or teach Scruggs-style bluegrass banjo, such as audioclips or videos.
2) Create a new forum called: "
Opinions About Playing: Bluegrass (Scruggs) Styles".
Any “pundit” is free to post their
opinions on that forum whether or not they have any banjo playing skills or teaching experience. On this “opinion” forum, the people who possess little or no expertise are welcome to discuss their “different” opinions free from the “thwarting” by the more knowledgeable players as described in MinstrelMike’s quote above.
Again, most of the credit for this idea should go to MinstrelMike and Rich Weill—I merely built upon their comments.
-Dave
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/19/2011: 09:26:14
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
John Hartford is a good illustration of this. Who spent more time with Earl Scruggs, soaking in everything about Earl's style and technique, than John? And then he went off and developed a style which was radically different. Yet he still credited Earl with teaching him most of what he learned about playing the banjo.
Great example.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 03/19/2011 09:31:38
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/19/2011: 09:50:06
This is getting so incredibly silly. I had pointed out the "[f]ew original posters solicit responses only from experts," that "sometimes it is a less-experienced player who can empathize more closely with the problem at hand, having recently struggled with it personally -- and maybe even have found a way to overcome it," and that "much of this site, and much of its joy, is about shared experiences. Finding companions on the journey." I did point out that "[i]f BHO wants to create an 'Ask the Expert' forum, great." But I wasn't advocating for it, and certainly wasn't advocating for a banjo version of apartheid, such as Dave Magram is now proposing -- and I suspect minstrelmike wasn't either.
Dave, it's a free country. Make whatever proposal you want. But don't try to deflect responsibility for the boorishness of what you are proposing onto me or anyone else. If you think that your comments should be segregated from mine, have the decency to say that this is what you want. Don't speak for me.
RedDragon - Posted - 03/19/2011: 10:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Open letter to Eric Schlange.
Hi Eric,
I believe that we may have come up with a solution to a big problem facing the BHO.
There seems to have been a major exodus of many skilled players from the BHO who had a great deal to offer to less-knowledgeable players, but felt that their expertise was overwhelmed by disrespectful nitpicking and uninformed opinions.
Are you aware how much of a jumped up little prima donna you've made yourself look with this thread, by the way? If you were intent on trying to generate "respect" for self-described "experts", this really isn't the way to go about it. I hope you treat your students with more respect than you treat the less experienced people on these forums.
As for the rest, I think this "major exodus" of yours is a myth. As far as I can see, there are plenty of skilled players and teachers still posting regularly to the Hangout. I think what you're really seeing is a tiny number of disgruntled members who are upset over the failure of their attempts to treat a community forum as their own personal playground where they can be regarded almost as demi-gods, be treated "with respect, and their advice like treasure", and demand that everybody else toe their line. Sorry, but that's not how the world works. It's kinda neat when people can make nice sounds on a musical instrument, but let's not get carried away, here. As a general rule, if you have to demand respect, then you don't really deserve it, however pretty your soundfiles might be.
As minstrelmike said, "on the internet, anyone can chime in." This is just the reality of the format we're engaging with. If particular individuals find themselves incapable of playing nicely with others in this format, incapable of participating in a community forum with a wide range of different people, without either getting too emotionally involved or without continuously challenging people to banjo duels, then frankly, I think it's better for them and for the community if those individuals stop participating. Their unwillingness or inability to participate on the same terms as everybody else is strictly a matter for themselves, and not something anybody else has to worry about; if they don't want to "hang out" with everyone else here, then that's their decision. Once a community forum starts pandering to the unreasonable demands of a few, then decline is inevitably not going to be far away.
In my view, what's really hurting these forums lately is this small cadre of malcontents who, for reasons best known to themselves, insist on turning every other thread into a meta-discussion, distracting attention away from talking about the banjo, and talking about music, and instead constantly diverting people into enormously off-topic discussions about who deserves "respect", who should be allowed to say what, who has the best soundfiles, and associated nonsense of that nature, not to mention the type of post you've just made from people who think that being a self-described "expert" gives them the moral authority to mistreat others. As I said, this is not the way to garner "respect", or to make most folks feel like they want to go out of their way to keep that type of "expert" around.
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/19/2011: 10:08:17
quote:
Originally posted by phb
Dave, may I remind you of a posting of yours:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Hi,
PHB wrote:
"Try forming the chord in the air before putting the hand down on the fingerboard. Do this in super-slomo, you won't be able to do it faster at the beginning anyway. If that is too difficult, just put down the fingers in your usual way and then try lifting them maintaining the structure. Check whether you succeeded by putting the fingers back down on the fingerboard and seeing whether the chord still sounds right. Also practice chord changes this way."
In my experience, PHB is right on the money.
When I used to teach banjo, a lot of students had trouble with making chords quickly.
I starting observing more closely how I made chords, and realized that I made the chord in mid-air, before I touched the banjo neck.
I gave the same advice to my students that PHB offered.
Apparently people who cannot play all too well can give good advice. I mean, it must be good advice if even you agree...
Phb,
I can’t tell if you are nitpicking here or not, so I am going to assume for the moment that you not nitpicking, and that you are sincerely asking me about effective teaching methods—because that is my main reason for participating on this forum, to help others if I can.
Effective teaching is far more complex than most people realize, which is the main point I’ve been trying to make here. One size does not fit all, and simplistic methods are usually not effective.
A key principle of my teaching style is approaching each lesson as a collaborative effort between me and my student.
I never take the position that I know everything, because every student is different and what works for some or most students will not work for all.
I always told my students that I looked forward to learning from them as well as them learning from me.
This is a confidence builder and a self-esteem booster for the student--and it is the truth.
If they are having a problem, instead of issuing instructions I usually offer suggestions to “guide” the student to the solution—because if the student can come up with the insight on their own, they will be much more willing to work on it.
Pride of ownership, and all of that.
Another key principle of mine is to “teach the student how to learn”.
I suspect that this approach is what most or all good teachers use.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s take the example you gave about forming chords quickly.
If you had been my student, and I noticed you having difficulty playing Boil The Cabbage because you were forming the chords one finger at a time, I would go through a multi-step process.
1) SELF-AWARENESS: I’d first ask you why you thought you might be having the problem.
2) ISOLATION OF PROBLEM: If you weren’t sure, I’d ask you to just make the chord (without any picking).
3) DIAGNOSIS: If you were still making the chord one finger at a time, I might say: “Hmm, when I make the chord, I do it like this (demonstrate). Do you see what I am doing differently than you are?”
4) FINDING A REMEDIATION: The student would usually observe that I am making the whole chord at one time, but might say, “I’ve tried to do that, but I just can’t.” I might say, “Let’s figure this out together. I’ll make the chord in slow motion (demonstrate). What specifically do you see me doing differently than you?”
5) ENCOURAGEMENT: Often the student would notice that I am forming the chord in mid-air. I would heartily congratulate them on their observation—because I want them to learn by observing other players.
It seems extremely unlikely to me that someone who cannot play well themselves are going to be able to identify and isolate the problem, or have the flexibility and capability to remediate the problem as above.
Can it happen occasionally? Sure, but even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
When you posted #5 above a month or so ago, I heartily congratulated you on your observation as if you were my student--to encourage you.
------------------------------------------------------
As I said, my intent here is to be helpful.
I did not join this forum to argue. On the other hand, I have decided to take a stand against misinformation and poor advice from a few people who have little or no teaching or playing experience, yet seem to have an inflated opinion of themselves and their abilities.
Does this help answer your question?
-Dave
mikey5string - Posted - 03/19/2011: 10:18:27
Someone asked if transcribing classic bluegrass breaks was beneficial to learning by ear.
The answer to that question is yes. I dont see how there can be any debate about that.
The thread got off track and nasty when a few people chimed in to say things about "copying isnt musical" or "forget the fancy stuff, learn the basics"
that has NOTHING to do with the topic. Anyone who can transcribe a scruggs, or anything by ear is already past the basics. if you want to learn a break the way someone else plays it what better way could there be than to listen to it and figure it out?
this is a scruggs stlye banjo forum. i think that makes it reasonable to assume people posting here are looking for advice on how to play scruggs style banjo. so when someone asks for advice the advice should be given with that in mind.
dont copy earl, do your own thing. how does this even make sense?
thats great if you dont want to play like earl but dont come into the scruggs forum and start arguments with people who do.
developing your own style is great. in the context of bluegrass banjo, your "own" style is adding your personal touches to a well established foundation. that foundation is earl scruggs.
anyway.
yes, transcribing is beneficial to learning by ear. thats exactly what you are doing when you transcribe! and i would write it down as you figure it out. tab, notes, standard notation whatever. then you can go back and see the piece as a whole, make changes etc.
Jazz Country - Posted - 03/19/2011: 10:44:17
quote:
Originally posted by mikey5string
anyway.
yes, transcribing is beneficial to learning by ear. thats exactly what you are doing when you transcribe! and i would write it down as you figure it out. tab, notes, standard notation whatever. then you can go back and see the piece as a whole, make changes etc.
Yes indeed, notating is great for for going back to the piece, and it also insidiously improves your writing and sense of rhythm.
BTW Mikey, I really enjoyed listening to you playing Mozart.
Larry
Edited by - Jazz Country on 03/19/2011 10:47:40
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/19/2011: 11:05:06
If you want to try to split forums up into facts and opinions, good luck.
I'm of the opinion that most of the real experts in any field know far fewer facts exist than those unfamiliar with the field think. The classic joke is that when you get a Ph.D, you now realize you know nothing about anything and never will.
The best teacher is not necessarily the best performer. I don't think anybody should recommend sending a student to a banjo contest and taking lessons only from the winner. Contest banjo ain't the same as regular banjo and playing ain't the same as teaching.
And frankly, it ain't the knowledge that's at fault; it is the response of the usenet gods.
What would it take to get them back here?
Reverence and awe with complete obeisance to every utterance?
Even if the answer were simple respect, then I'd have to say respect is given for respect. Expecting the people below you to show respect to you when all you give them is disrespect doesn't seem right in my book. It seems more of the 'god' like behavior I see all over the 'net.
I chose the epithet god for good reason.
They can come back and post anytime they want on any subject they want. No one's stopping them except for themselves--their own personal attitude that they don't get the respect they 'deserve.'
I think instead of two different fora, all we need are new rules that go after disrespectful behavior. That fixes the behavioral issues, and that's when you start seeing the expert misbehavior for exactly what it is.
1.Knowledge is not the same as the ability to express that knowledge in a way others can use.
2.I'm only in charge of what I post. I cannot control your reaction to it. Neither can God.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/19/2011: 12:25:02
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
If there is no copying, then there is no style/genre. You HAVE to copy otherwise, what do you have? You have something with no foundation in the
very thing you are trying to do. Moreover, these very stylistic characteristics are the things that often attract one to the instrument. They want it to sound like bluegrass, and not some generic banjo player that just so happened to cross over from the guitar.
This idea that creativity doesn't come from others?...You take from what you hear, what experiences you have and appropriate all of that into your own being. People are influenced by that and it DOES effect their ability to CREATE, which is what creativity IS. So, I disagree, others do help you generate creativity in a round about way. The whole history of music and sounds has a great deal to do with ones Creativity. I sure as heck couldn't conceptualize the things I do now without Earl Scruggs and Bill Keith. Without them, my ability to be "creative" would be less. Perhaps given enough time I would discover said techniques on my own?...but I doubt it. The guy that first sat down and figured out the major scale effected your creativity just the same.
Other peoples IDEAS give you IDEAS, a new way to think. A way to think about things that perhaps you didn't before. Before you heard this person, you didn't not think about such things. Thus they have affected your creativity.
Melody is also not the only thing that distinguishes one lick from another-dont forget rhythm. I can play the same exact notes in a different rhythm and it is a new "lick." Or I can start on a different beat.
Jody,
Some great thoughts.
I just came across a book that looks to be interesting called the Talent Code by Daniel Coyle. In a internet synopsis of the book I came across the quote:
"As a skill-building method, theft is historically underrated.....Picasso...was a big proponent. As he put it "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal"."
Ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/19/2011 12:26:13
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/19/2011: 13:07:21
Thanks Ken,
I hope some of my responses have helped explain the transcribing process. When I was starting out learning things off records, I was just emulating things note for note, in the beginning I suppose that is a stage one has to go through. However, at some point thinking deeper than that helps one to get the most out of it. Like paying attention to the rhythm section, accents, etc.
I liked the analogy phb used earlier about the guys laying tile floor, I think that was a good explanation. In the midst of all of the material you hopefully find your own way as well.
I think many of the people on this thread are in fact saying the same things, despite the animosity. I see more similarities than differences. No one is saying transcribing is bad and you shouldn't do it, and no one is saying that is ALL you should do either. I often find this community (myself included) zones in on an extreme point of view and then argues against it, even though that's not what was said or is being argued.
Regardless, experiencing something for yourself is often the best teacher. Try transcribing something, see if it helps you retain it better. See how it effects what you are playing? The best "method" is the one that works for you.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 03/19/2011 13:11:46
phb - Posted - 03/19/2011: 13:13:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Phb,
I can’t tell if you are nitpicking here or not, so I am going to assume for the moment that you not nitpicking, and that you are sincerely asking me about effective teaching methods
What is so hard to understand about "Apparently people who cannot play all too well can give good advice"?
I'm neither nit-picking nor asking a question, I'm making a point that regardless a person's ability as a player, he can give good advice and make a correct statement. Just because at some point in time he was in the same situation another novice player is in. If the person asking for advice had followed your advice to always check the audio files of the person giving an advice and to judge the quality of the advice in correspondence to the quality of the playing, he or she would have disregarded my (correct) advice (well, if it hadn't been for you supporting my point of view...).
phb - Posted - 03/19/2011: 13:16:39
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
I think many of the people on this thread are in fact saying the same things, despite the animosity. I see more similarities than differences. No one is saying transcribing is bad and you shouldn't do it, and no one is saying that is ALL you should do either. I often find this community (myself included) zones in on an extreme point of view and then argues against it, even though that's not what was said or is being argued.
Very true indeed, if we were really all just hanging out and having some beer with our conversation, I doubt there would be any hard words at all (but lots of music)!
Edited by - phb on 03/19/2011 13:17:08
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/20/2011: 10:33:16
Debates happen when someone needs to be right.
Discussions happen when people merely share information, ideas, and approaches.
What is the one true way to learn banjo?
If there isn't one, then don't debate the rightness of your limited approach (all approaches are limited in some way, shape or form).
Earl and J.D. took different paths.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/20/2011: 10:34:50
mm is right. I hid the last two posts that elicited his response. If you have a personal debate, take it off the Hangout, please. Thanks.
un5trung - Posted - 03/20/2011: 10:39:55
quote:
Debates happen when someone needs to be right.
Discussions happen when people merely share information, ideas, and approaches.
Huh -- I like that distinction, Minstrel -- thanks!
larry p - Posted - 08/27/2011: 19:01:00
Just happened to stumble upon this thread-wow! Thanks 'From Greylock to Bean Blossom' for mentioning our new record..
"I don't know how you go wrong studying from a creative genius that you have always learned a new twist from?
Also I think the realistic goal in listening and copying might be to play better, rather than to "Play Like Earl" (sorry Larry Perkins) because I don't know if that can happen." But no apologies are necessary at all! To the contrary-if I have a favorite line from that little song ('Pick Like Earl') is the one that goes: "The more I pick like Earl, the more I get like me" ..
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/27/2011: 20:31:33
Larry,
Thank you for the great album! And thanks for the affirmation of a classic learning system that will help us hacks improve.
Ken
Dave Magram - Posted - 08/27/2011: 22:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by larry p
I don't know how you go wrong studying from a creative genius that you have always learned a new twist from?
Bingo, Larry P.! I never get tired of listening to Earl's playing, even on songs that I've heard a zillion times before. Often I catch a little nuance that I'd missed.
A couple of weeks ago, my band was playing at a local bluegrass festival for which Roger Siminoff was one of the MCs. I’ve known Roger for many years. Roger has also been a close friend of Earl’s for a long time. Roger was looking straight at me walking up with my banjo-case, when he loudly said to someone next to him, “Well, here comes a pretty good banjo-player.”
I laughed and said to Roger, “Thanks Roger, but as long as Earl Scruggs is alive and playing the banjo, the rest of us are merely banjo owners.” 
- Dave
smoore - Posted - 08/28/2011: 19:56:45
quote:
Originally posted by un5trung
quote:
Debates happen when someone needs to be right.
Discussions happen when people merely share information, ideas, and approaches.
Huh -- I like that distinction, Minstrel -- thanks!
For me, I say any conceptual description of "discussion" must involve listening. In a debate it's very permissible to simply state, restate, and spin your position with no real need to actually listen; in a legit discussion listening is required. Much online silliness happens when sides get chosen to regurgitate the same things over and over. The only listening occurs when one side wants to use quotes to attack the other side; it's one thing to offer a previous point to gain a better understanding of the other side and quite another to attempt to tear down the opposition. To me "discussion" and "sharing" imply TWO way communication with a goal of understanding. Much of this thread sure looks like a contest to be "right" to me.
I doubt it would make any real difference, but I wonder if a designated forum for debate would be helpful. It seems to me it might give moderators another option to maintain order when things start to get off topic and spiral downwards. I do know several people who have left because things got past their threshold, and that's sad. Reasonable attempts to increase civility seems like something that at least deserve a moments thought. A BHO "cage match" might even be interesting to watch and I bet we could even have quite a contest to come up with a soundtrack!
smoore - Posted - 08/28/2011: 21:22:46
For what it's worth I'll add yet another data point regarding transcribing. In my own experience I've come to believe that listening is the single most important and fundamental skill for me. I've been around music awhile and I'm at a point where I'm revisiting and unlearning lot's of things.
In my case, a friend (who is learning guitar) asked me to write out a tab and lead in standard notation for the song "The River Of Jordan". We sang the song together years ago and I wasn't sure I could remember the words so I got scrounged up a recorded source which happened to be Ricky Scaggs. During the transcribing I discovered my listening habits needed some work. I wasn't paying real close attention to the recording because I was already familiar with the song. I should also add that my skill with writing standard notation is almost nonexistent. I know enough to read given enough time but I never tried writing anything. At a couple of points Ricky changed things slightly from the version I knew,specifically he added some pickup notes(words). These turned out to force me to really focus on listening and counting time.
A light came on and I realized my listening habits were pretty sloppy. I tend to listen enough to get a good idea of an approximation of what I'm hearing but there is a lot of room for improvement. With this revelation I went back to my old Scruggs recordings to try out my improved listening and found many things I skipped on earlier listening. (Tag licks where Earl leaves out notes for example)
The point I want to make is that writing out tab or standard notation can force you to listen in a different way than normal. For me to listen closely enough to figure out a note for note transcription absolutely means listening at a much higher level than "casual" or even "highly interested", it's quite simply hard work and for me it's different.
I don't think I would advise a total beginner to start with a note for note transcription, but I do think beginners need help with focus and listening skills. I think it would absolutely be good for a total beginner to work on listening and writing out the words to a song and then possibly even trying something like Pete Wernick's system of putting a star over the downbeat syllables. Maybe even trying to listen to the bass and attempting to mark out where the chord changes might be would seem to be potentially useful. I can imagine a beginner not getting close to the correct chord changes but the experience of listening in a different way might be productive in the long run. At a minimum I think it would be useful for a beginner to start tapping a foot and counting measures. A beginner that can't find downbeats and count time will clearly have to fix that pronto. From my own point of view, I don't think you can start too early to learn how to listen. I realize the thread was not primarily addressing beginners but the topic drifted and I saw a lot regarding teaching and none of the points addressed listening. Transcribing is clearly out of the question but I think there is room for a productive use of a primitive form of transcript.
For intermediates and advanced I think everyone should at least try one transcription. If it seems to help then stay the course, otherwise find another path. I'm almost certain that attempting a single transcription never hindered anyone's progress and it may open your eyes like it did for me. It's likely I'll never look at my transcript again, but I gained much from the process that I likely would have missed had I never made the effort. I've heard Sam Bush say "If I think it helps, it does" I feel that way too. A side effect for me was that slowing things down enough to hear clearly helped me learn to listen to banjo happening at a slow pace. Listening to Earl at 60bpm somehow makes it a little easier to practice at that pace, at least for me, not to mention that a lot pops out at super slow speeds (slides, graces notes, etc) that are impossible to hear at normal speed. If you try one and you learn to improve your listening then life is good, if not it's hard to imagine that one effort will permanently impair your creativity and improv capability. Personally I would think it helpful to compare different note for note versions of Earls's breaks over the years. I wonder how many recorded versions there are of, for example, Ear's playing FMB or Blue Ridge Cabin Home?
My last thought is a recommendation. For anyone who is thinking of trying their first Scruggs transcript I would start with something from the Mercury recordings. The band was small and it's easier to hear Earl. Basically Earl and Paul Warren take turns being interesting while everyone else chunks out rhythm. Many other recordings add instruments and it can get tricky to actually hear specifics.
Dave Magram - Posted - 08/28/2011: 23:59:32
quote:
Originally posted by smoore
For what it's worth I'll add yet another data point regarding transcribing. In my own experience I've come to believe that listening is the single most important and fundamental skill for me. I've been around music awhile and I'm at a point where I'm revisiting and unlearning lot's of things…
My last thought is a recommendation. For anyone who is thinking of trying their first Scruggs transcript I would start with something from the Mercury recordings. The band was small and it's easier to hear Earl. Basically Earl and Paul Warren take turns being interesting while everyone else chunks out rhythm. Many other recordings add instruments and it can get tricky to actually hear specifics.
Smoore,
I completely agree with your first point. Music is auditory--listening is the most important skill to hone.
I’ve often suggested buying these Flatt & Scruggs CDs containing a total of over 80 great songs & tunes for less than $30:
Earl Scruggs 101: “Folk Songs of Our Land/Hard Traveling”. Many slow and moderate tempo songs, great backup. (About $10 on Amazon).
Earl Scruggs 201: “Complete Mercury Recordings” The great classics that Osborne, Shelton, Crowe, etc. learned from. (Less than $3 used on Amazon).
Earl Scruggs 301: “At Carnegie Hall”. An entire concert with a wide variety of great material and playing. (About $12 on Amazon).
[One historical note: The fiddlers on the Mercury sessions (1948 – 1950) were Jim Shumate, Benny Sims, and Art Wooten. Paul Warren did not record with the group until 1954.]
- Dave
smoore - Posted - 08/29/2011: 09:10:44
Ok, I thought Paul was on the last session but I stand corrected. I picked up a couple of the old TV show DVD's at Galax and I guess watching Paul play must have influenced my imperfect memory. On the shows Josh Graves is already with the band so I should have realized the band had a dobro then and my point was to seek out the simple band configuration to make hearing easier. I like Josh on dobro but it certainly doesn't make hearing the banjo easier. Less instruments can make it easier to listen to individual parts was my thought.
steve davis - Posted - 08/29/2011: 13:24:08
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
I am trying to learn to play by ear have been using the Amazing Slow Downer. I would like to get opinions regarding if I should transcribe what I hear and learn. Obviously I want to get away from tab but I wonder if the process of transcribing would make me better learn and retain what I have heard?
Thanks to any that would like to share their thought with me on this.
Ken
The old-fashioned way of playing by ear was to simply immerse oneself in the music that was happening in the home and church.
Singing and playing what sounded good...avoiding what sounded wrong.Training the ear.
When playing with the more experienced players,being able to take reasonable criticism about timing and or chord/note choice.
This trains the ear and soon you are able to determine better for yourself what sounds right.There isn't a written method to getting a feeling for what sounds right...just experience and habit,imo.
Learn the difference between right and wrong.
Edited by - steve davis on 08/29/2011 13:25:54
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 08/29/2011: 15:15:42
Thanks Steve,
Always good to hear from you. Hope Irene was OK to you. Dick G. lost power for 7 hours in norwich but other than that came out pretty good.
Ken
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