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Dave Magram - Posted - 03/13/2011: 12:35:25
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
Here's your quote that started this discussion:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
For those of us who aspire to playing in a hard-driving traditional bluegrass band that is good enough to perform at festivals or bars for money, it matters a lot.
In my world, "for money" means "professional."
Rather than point out that I said “good enough to perform” focusing on the skill level involved and not the money, or to point out that the dictionary definition of “professional” is to “earn one’s livelihood’, and $40 a gig a couple of times a week is hardly making a living, let’s focus on what this forum should be about, Rich.
IMO, it should be about music—not quibbling about words.
I have stated that my intention for joining this forum is to help novices.
You state on your homepage that you have been playing since 2003.
You have also admitted on several threads that you are still a novice player.
So how can I help you to “move to the next plateau”, Rich?
I mean this in all sincerity.
If after eight years of playing the banjo you are still a novice, have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps you need to try a different approach?
You have expressed great reluctance to post any audioclips of your playing, so we can’t offer you constructive suggestions to improve via the BHO.
However if you wanted to send me an MP3 file of your playing via e-mail, I’d be glad to try to help you as best I can with constructive suggestions to improve--at no charge.
If you don’t want my help for whatever reason, why not take a few Internet lessons from John Boulding or Tony Trischka or any of the other well-regarded instructors?
This is a friendly gesture to try to help you move to the next plateau.
- Dave
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/13/2011: 12:50:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
You have also admitted on several threads that you are still a novice player.
Where did I say that?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
You have expressed great reluctance to post any audioclips of your playing
Where did I say that?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Please don’t misquote me to bolster your own opinions
Exactly.
krisshewmake - Posted - 03/13/2011: 14:11:51
I have never thought of myself as having the (best ear) but over the years it seems to be getting better. I once described it as being like when someone tries to get you to eat something you don’t want, you fight it until you finally take a bite and realize you like it. I have always been able to learn melody on single string easier than three finger. Now I have realized that for Scruggs style if I syncopate the melody and then add the fith string ill get what I’m trying to learn. Sometimes with the Scruggs style, I’m just hinting at the melody. I use the melodic three finger style in order to play melody note for note. Don’t get me wrong I still use tab every once in awhile but It seems to me that using your ear as opposed to using tab opens you up to a whole other realm of playing the instrument. When I learn a really complicated piece using tab I find myself concentrating on the fret board and going back to relearn parts over time. When I have transcribed something I seem to retain it easier and find myself playing it with much more emotion.
Kris
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/13/2011: 15:23:47
Dave: You posted some inaccurate information, and I corrected it.
==================
Dave, since you post this comment after reading my rebuttal, I guess you got lost in the analogy stuff. You should look into it because it is used a lot in discussions like this. Let me go back, because it's important: don't keep saying negative personal stuff when what you don't understand the situation. The correct reply would have been that you were sorry to have said that Richard doesn't know what he is talking about, because you didn't understand analogies. After you had fixed that error then you should have gone on to say that you understand it now and yes the analogy is a good one.
Instead you read it and understood it to be true but then you just ignored it. That's not showing much respect for me or the other posters.
Let me ask you again, if you had two choices would you just sit home and learn tab or go out into the real world and learn to play music?
And it is a mistake to suppose the someone's banjo talent is a measure of the value of their advice. If some really good banjo player told you he learned by hanging upside down from the rafters with his picks on backwards, does that mean he discovered a great new learning method or does it mean that he was so talented that it didn't matter much how he learned to play? Look at it the other way, if Segovia, who never played the banjo, wanted to give you some tips on music, wouldn't he be worth listening to even if he didn't have an MP3?
Since you invoke JD, Sonny, and Keith again I have to point out again that they were musicians. They obviously had some natural talent and ability. To argue that since they studied Earl's transcriptions and also since they were really great, then anybody who studies Earl will also be great like them. Including the poor banjo student who can't hum any melody, can't even beat out a rhythm on a garbage can lid, and can bring nothing to the lesson but a burning desire to play music and some money.
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/13/2011: 16:03:27
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
Since you invoke JD, Sonny, and Keith again I have to point out again that they were musicians. They obviously had some natural talent and ability. To argue that since they studied Earl's transcriptions and also since they were really great, then anybody who studies Earl will also be great like them. Including the poor banjo student who can't hum any melody, can't even beat out a rhythm on a garbage can lid, and can bring nothing to the lesson but a burning desire to play music and some money.
Well of course you can't say that, Richard. There's lots of people here who can play pretty well, but they just aren't strong enough to replicate the things that Earl (and Crowe and Sonny and whoever) have done. But there's just no doubt about it - if you ARE willing to put in the time to study the things those players have done (ESPECIALLY THE DETAILS, RICHARD!!), and if you ARE able to replicate the things they have done, chances are you have a MUCH better chance of becoming an exceptional player who is, in turn, capable of actually creating, not just replicating.
For Pete's sake, this is a ridiculous discussion. The Osborne Brothers made an album whose focus was largely about replicating the sounds of Flatt and Scruggs and Bill Monroe. Isn't it CLEAR that Sonny, a gifted musician in his own right, was made better by his diligent study and replication of Scruggs' playing?
Bottom line to original poster:
STUDY THE WORKS OF THE GREAT MASTERS. REPLICATE THEM AS CLOSELY AS YOU CAN. INTERNALIZE THEM. IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PLAYER. THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT!!!
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/13/2011: 16:17:35
And one more thing - I suspect that MANY banjo players never reach their potential, whatever that potential may be, because they never do the kind of study that I described in the preceding post. Maybe you won't ever be another Sonny Osborne or JD Crowe. VERY few will. But you WILL be better. Do the work. It's fun. 
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/13/2011: 16:58:59
Flying Eagle: Isn't it CLEAR that Sonny, a gifted musician in his own right, was made better by his diligent study and replication of Scruggs' playing?
That is very true, FE. But it has nothing to do with what I am saying. (And does it really merit capital letters?)I might ask you: so what? Just because Sonny studied Earl and learned him note for note doesn't mean that if you do everything Sonny did then you will be a good banjo player. Ralph Stanley didn't learn that way and he's a pretty good picker, same with Adcock and Reno. Don Stover said he learned sort of the way you espouse, but again, he was a musician.
Ok we can agree that your replication seems to be a way that some musicians find successful. The important word here that some posters consistently pass by is "musician". Let's not get lost in arguing about what is a musician. For my purposes it is the general understanding that most of us have when we can say 'Wow, that guy is a real musician' or 'Look at all those fancy licks. Too bad it sounds like crap'. We all kind of understand that kind of difference in the pickers we might see at a jam, right?
If I understand you, you are saying that a student without capability or knowledge of music should improve himself by studying advanced Scruggs licks? That is very bad advice for a beginning student or anyone who is being held back by issues unrelated to the banjo, for example rhythm.
Then you confuse me by saying first "of course you can't say that" and then you say in very bold letters "that's how you do it". So which is it?
Edited by - Richard Dress on 03/13/2011 17:01:43
Jazz Country - Posted - 03/13/2011: 17:40:38
Clark Terry's famous quote comes to mind: Imitate, assimilate, innovate. In that order. You will grow as a musician. Most anybody can take the first two steps. Number three is the elusive one. Good thing it's so much fun no matter what level.
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/13/2011: 19:37:32
Look Richard, this is simple... it really is. There's obviously some work that a beginner student has to do before they're ready to move on to this level of learning. I'm not talking about beginners here. The guy who started this thread was talking about transcribing breaks. A beginner can't do that.
ANY banjo player who makes it to the intermediate stage and takes the time to diligently study the foundational works of the banjo players mentioned in this thread WILL benefit from it. Will they ALL become great pickers like Scruggs, Sonny, JD, etc? No, they won't. But they'll get better, I guarantee it. Everything that these guys did wasn't so far advanced that it's inaccessible. There's LOTS of stuff Earl did that is doable, even by an intermediate player if they just work on it.
That's why Foggy Moutain Banjo is so popular with banjo players. It's good listening, but it's also a great learning tool. The songs on that album can be used in a logical progression of learning. Cripple Creek, Little Darlin Pal of Mine, Fireball Mail, then on to up the neck techniques with Cumberland Gap, Bugle Call Rag, Sally Ann. Then, on to the Mercury Recordings, and back up technique and playing with vocals on Cabin in Caroline and Little Girl in Tennesse. Then, back to Foggy Mt. Banjo for playing in D tuning with Reuben and John Henry. I'm describing a road of learning that never ends. Some make it far down that road, some don't. But I'm thoroughly convinced it's the best road to take to have a chance to maximize your potential on the instrument.
Are you picking up what I'm laying down here, Richard? If a student achieves a level of proficiency on the things I just laid out, they're on their way to being a good picker. They're on their way to being able to play anything they want... to being able to improvise a break at any jam they attend because they got so much great banjo playing in their brain. Again... THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT. That's how you learn to play bluegrass banjo well. I'm still doing these things, and I've been playing 34 years. I'm still woodshedding The Mercury Recordings, lots of Osborne Brothers albums, the Album Band stuff, Alan Munde records, Jimmy Arnold records, and lots of other stuff. I've been doing this for 34 years. And I'm still progressing. I'm better than I was last year.
I'm a little puzzled at your repeated use of the term "musician". A musician is someone who plays music. Not all musicians have amazing skills that gain them great noteriety and renown. Some musicians (and teachers) are quite average... even mediocre. A musician is not a magician, and music is not magic. It's a passion.
JW
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/13/2011: 20:09:21
Jim, I listened to all your sound files because I take you seriously and your passion for the music is obvious. You have certainly learned a lot of stuff. But when you say that a musician is someone who plays music. I am puzzled by that observation. I can say OK, but what is music? Will you tell me that is what a musician plays?
I see someone sit down at the piano and play a Bach sonata note perfect. No rhythm, poor timing, no dynamics. But they are playing the sheet music by old Johann. That's music there on the paper. Maybe they can 'play' all of Bach's sonatas and Mozart all just as well. They are musicians? That's not what I mean or what most people mean when they use the word. Would you go to a concert and listen for hours to someone who can't really play music? (Unless, of course, it was your kid's Suzuki lesson). Please don't start up with this avant-garde idea that anything is music. We are talking about bluegrass. And real music that makes people want to dance.
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/13/2011: 20:41:47
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
Since you invoke JD, Sonny, and Keith again I have to point out again that they were musicians. They obviously had some natural talent and ability. To argue that since they studied Earl's transcriptions and also since they were really great, then anybody who studies Earl will also be great like them. Including the poor banjo student who can't hum any melody, can't even beat out a rhythm on a garbage can lid, and can bring nothing to the lesson but a burning desire to play music and some money.
Well of course you can't say that, Richard. There's lots of people here who can play pretty well, but they just aren't strong enough to replicate the things that Earl (and Crowe and Sonny and whoever) have done. But there's just no doubt about it - if you ARE willing to put in the time to study the things those players have done (ESPECIALLY THE DETAILS, RICHARD!!), and if you ARE able to replicate the things they have done, chances are you have a MUCH better chance of becoming an exceptional player who is, in turn, capable of actually creating, not just replicating.
For Pete's sake, this is a ridiculous discussion. The Osborne Brothers made an album whose focus was largely about replicating the sounds of Flatt and Scruggs and Bill Monroe. Isn't it CLEAR that Sonny, a gifted musician in his own right, was made better by his diligent study and replication of Scruggs' playing?
Bottom line to original poster: STUDY THE WORKS OF THE GREAT MASTERS. REPLICATE THEM AS CLOSELY AS YOU CAN. INTERNALIZE THEM. IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PLAYER. THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT!!!
Thank you, Jim (Flying Eagle) for saying so succinctly what I have been trying to say—but not as eloquently as you have done in your posts today.
BTW, I really enjoyed your version of Lonesome Reuben on your homepage—you sounded exactly like Earl on some parts and then you played some very creative variations that were all your own—a perfect example of what you recommend in BIG LETTERS above!
-Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/13/2011: 21:01:12
quote:
Originally posted by Jazz Country
I did a ton of transcribing as part of my jazz study. Many a day a stayed home and notated an entire solo by Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, or Chet Baker, to name a few. The intention was not to merely parrot these players but to analyze how they created their phrases and *very importantly* how they weaved them into a story.
Larry
Larry, thanks for your very well-written comments regarding the value of transcribing, and for pointing out that this approach is of great value to many forms of improvisational music, not just bluegrass.
Wow—if you can transcribe Davis, Parker, and Baker, you have got one heck of an ear!
quote:
Originally posted by Jazz Country
Clark Terry's famous quote comes to mind: Imitate, assimilate, innovate. In that order. You will grow as a musician. Most anybody can take the first two steps. Number three is the elusive one. Good thing it's so much fun no matter what level.
I hadn’t heard that quote before, but that says it all in just three words, doesn’t it?
Now that’s succinct!
And Clark Terry is one very creative trumpet-player!
I totally agree on the fun part.
Transcribing may be challenging and difficult at times, but it is never boring!
- Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/13/2011: 21:09:37
quote:
Originally posted by krisshewmake
When I have transcribed something I seem to retain it easier and find myself playing it with much more emotion.
I quite agree, Kris.
I believe that in the process of hunting for the notes on your fingerboard, and then discovering them, you are internalizing them and making them your own, just as Flying Eagle said.
Banjo playing is just like any other endeavor—you get out of it what you put into it.
- Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/13/2011: 21:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
Everyone has their own stories, but for me, it wasn't until I started figuring out nearly everything by ear from recordings that I began to gain the skill of playing with others well. I would sit and play the backup and then when the banjo went into lead, I'd play along with it. Lastly, learning other peoples breaks note for note (or as close as I could get them) never dampened my ability to obtain a style of my own.
Jody, very well said!
That’s exactly how I learned too.
And if you haven’t heard Jody’s banjo-playing, check out his homepage.
This is one creative cat!
And he plays so smooth and effortlessly!
I’m jealous.
- Dave
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/14/2011: 04:38:12
Dave, your response above should serve as a warning to all BHO members who engage with you in these discussions.
You made the blatantly false statement that I "admitted on several threads" that I am "still a novice player." When I challenged you to back that up, you come up with a quote where I said "I profess no expertise on the banjo" -- and make the extremely lame argument that there is no skill level between "novice" and "expert."
You also made the blatantly false statement that I "expressed great reluctance to post any audioclips of [my] playing." When I challenged you to back that up, you could find no "expressions" of "great reluctance."
Then, having failed to support either of your false, personal accusations, you say: "I am willing to let all of the above be 'water under the bridge.'" You are willing? As the person wrongfully accused, shouldn't that be my decision?
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/14/2011: 09:21:01
Tell me why an MP3 matters when we post here? I can't really see the connection. Yes, it helps establish where someone is coming from when certain questions come up, but what is Rich saying that needs an MP3? You really must make that connection for us or all your recent posts will sound like bullying.
I know this has come up in other threads. As a general rule, I don't think members should feel like they have to prove they are good banjo players before they can say anything. If a sound file is really relevant, then that's a different matter. But these strident demands for proof of something (looking for skills, in your post) are uncomfortable reading. Again, why is it important to the thread?
On the other hand I think the posters (like you and FE, and many others) who post MP3s as credentials are pretty gutsy. I admire it.
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/14/2011: 09:41:00
Another thing, one of the most unusual and valuable (unofficial) services of the HO is being a safe place for a beginner to post some honest and maybe bad picking and ask for advice. I know there are a lot of reasons for posting sound files, but the most important reason to the banjo community is helping beginners flourish.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by Jazz Country
Clark Terry's famous quote comes to mind: Imitate, assimilate, innovate. In that order. You will grow as a musician. Most anybody can take the first two steps. Number three is the elusive one. Good thing it's so much fun no matter what level.
Thanks for your input Jazz, I've enjoyed your points. Have you ever read "Thinking in Jazz" by Berliner? That talks about this process quite a bit.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 03/14/2011 10:06:28
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:15:30
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Obviously I want to get away from tab but I wonder if the process of transcribing would make me better learn and retain what I have heard?
Hello again,
Another thing not touched on is whether or not you would TAB out what you transcribed? I find myself writing things down more these days. Sometimes I get 3-4 years down the road and I can't remember what I transcribed. Once again, things have to be constantly revisited regardless of the method. Sometimes I just write down the hard parts that I'm likely to forget.
In addition, it doesn't have to be just sitting down and figuring out the notes. You are listening for how they shaped the notes, the accents, the rhythms, etc. To me, that's when you start digging in deep and really getting a lot out of it. It's not just about the notes but how, when, and why they were played. Transcribing can in fact consist of many levels. I think this is why any student with basic fundamentals in place can get a lot out of it. I find most of my students don't listen to music nearly enough; when transcribing you can pay attention to every little nuance.
Like anything in the learning process, it's all about balance. Balance it in with the rest of your studies and you'll be fine.
Carlos Benavides - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:33:00
I consider myself a novice player, been doing it for just over a year. I see the road ahead a very long, hard working, but still enjoyable path to get to where I want to be as a banjo player.
The way I see it, that banjo path is just another road in a bigger journey - music. My understanding of music comes from hard work (playing, listening, emulating, copying note-for-note, improvising) that goes back more than 20 years. In fact, I was reminded of 20 years ago when I was taking lessons in electric guitar, mostly jazz, and my teacher decided to put the guitars away for a while. He then took out a book of photography, because he wanted to demonstrate how some photographers had a great sense of rhythm.
Wow! Something really cool happened that day and that memory has never left me: music can exist outside of our instruments too. Sometimes, music has nothing to do with the instruments we play, or how well we can play them. And sometimes the core of music has very little to do with how we play notes, but rather on how we learned to arrive at the notes we chose. But I also know inside myself that I want to communicate with other folks in this genre, by jamming, by maybe one day being invited to play in a band. Which is why I choose to further learn this 'music thing' by learning banjo in Scruggs-style as my foundation. And then looking at what the other cool players have done after that historical moment. But still and always with Scruggs style as my primary source. Because that's where I see this particular language (music genre) originating. The music itself is outside and beyond of Scruggs-style.
So, getting back to the question of transcribing, emulating the great banjo players, reading tab, listening. They're just tools and different folks use them in different ways. Some people have the natural ability to grow with these tools, and always at different rates with different tools. In the end it's about how we apply these tools to the larger context: how well do we understand music, in all it's forms and in varying complexities. Dancing tunes - music for just listening - music to inspire action. All musicians at every level have validity when they comment about anything about music. Music and privilege don't go together. Some of the most profound musical things I've learned in my life have come from children, and what they say about stuff, and how they view the stuff around them.
I think our ability to perceive music can also decline when certain types of practice are not practiced. The tough drills are just as important as the intuition. I will try the many advice everyone has suggested in this thread. I believe all of it will take me to the same place by different routes.
Thanks all you guys, I always learn SO MUCH when I read these threads, gotta love it. OK, enough ranting, I'll take my change from a nickel.
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
Dave, your response above should serve as a warning to all BHO members who engage with you in these discussions.
You made the blatantly false statement that I "admitted on several threads" that I am "still a novice player." When I challenged you to back that up, you come up with a quote where I said "I profess no expertise on the banjo" -- and make the extremely lame argument that there is no skill level between "novice" and "expert."
You also made the blatantly false statement that I "expressed great reluctance to post any audioclips of [my] playing." When I challenged you to back that up, you could find no "expressions" of "great reluctance."
Then, having failed to support either of your false, personal accusations, you say: "I am willing to let all of the above be 'water under the bridge.'" You are willing? As the person wrongfully accused, shouldn't that be my decision?
It appears that Dave Magram's post, which had appeared this morning immediately above this response, now has been deleted. If so, I have no objection to this one being deleted, too. I'd do it myself, except the 15 minute rule seems to apply to deletions as well as edits.
Rich Weill - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:42:49
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
On the other hand I think the posters (like you and FE, and many others) who post MP3s as credentials are pretty gutsy.
Add to that: "more technologically sophisticated than many people." Making an mp3, let alone posting it? I wouldn't know where to start.
Jazz Country - Posted - 03/14/2011: 10:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by Jody Hughes
quote:
Originally posted by Jazz Country
Clark Terry's famous quote comes to mind: Imitate, assimilate, innovate. In that order. You will grow as a musician. Most anybody can take the first two steps. Number three is the elusive one. Good thing it's so much fun no matter what level.
Thanks for your input Jazz, I've enjoyed your points. Have you ever read "Thinking in Jazz" by Berliner? That talks about this process quite a bit.
Hey Jody, thanks for the kind words and for this great referral - I can't believe I hadn't heard about that book. It's now #1 on my wish list.
Larry
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/14/2011: 12:46:43
An opinion that shows the pros and cons of an approach is valid regardless of how well anyone plays. Or not.
Being able to play is not the same thing as being able to teach or to explain or even to be able to talk about what you are doing.
If someone says here are three different ways to approach understanding theory, then there are at least three different ways, whether that is said by some no-name yahoo such as me or whether it is said by Earl "I-don't-use-rolls" Scruggs.
The demand for sound files is a variety of the ad hominem attack.
My response is usually for the person who thinks his or her way is best, instead of just one of the possible alternatives, is for the poster (or poser in my book regardless of playing ability because we aren't playing, we are talking about learning to play here) is to explain when your lauded approach fails or what aspects it is not good at.
What are the limits?
I can explain the benefits and costs of -every- common approach to playing music, not just the benefits of the way I think I learned. /*Note. If you started with Murphy or Wernick but then also did other stuff, then that other stuff helped just as much as the method you used to take the very first step */
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/14/2011: 20:31:40
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
Tell me why an MP3 matters when we post here? I can't really see the connection. Yes, it helps establish where someone is coming from when certain questions come up, but what is Rich saying that needs an MP3? You really must make that connection for us or all your recent posts will sound like bullying.
It doesn't have to be an MP3. It can be a youtube file... like this one. Isn't this you, Richard?
youtube.com/user/dress821#p/u/...i_xwJpipo
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/14/2011: 20:50:22
Thanks for the bump on youtube. But those clips aren't meant for entertainment, although I am sure some are laughing at them. Those clips, like the clips on Beginner Scruggs and Pull-offs are up there to make a point, not make my reputation as a picker. The cuts off my last CDs are at my homepage for people to evaluate my guitar, banjo, and vocal skills. I uploaded that commercial production, because I needed some cred to support my often controversial posts, even though in most cases it is irrelevant.
Edited by - Richard Dress on 03/14/2011 20:51:19
phb - Posted - 03/15/2011: 07:45:09
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
Again... THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT. That's how you learn to play bluegrass banjo well. I'm still doing these things, and I've been playing 34 years. I'm still woodshedding The Mercury Recordings, lots of Osborne Brothers albums, the Album Band stuff, Alan Munde records, Jimmy Arnold records, and lots of other stuff. I've been doing this for 34 years. And I'm still progressing. I'm better than I was last year.
If you are still following your approach after 34 years of playing and if you are still progressing, your "THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT"-approach must be very inefficient or your progress must have become infinitesimal. Earl Scruggs surely didn't copy or emulate what other people did for 34 years before he sounded like Earl Scruggs. And so didn't Sonny Osborne or J. D. Crowe, just to nick that great name-dropping style of argumentation.
I also don't believe that "sounding exactly like Scruggs" is what the majority of bluegrass banjo beginners are trying to achieve. Obviously, if you do select that goal, you will have to copy everything Scruggs did to the most minute detail. I'm pretty sure that a famous banjo player who says about his own playing that he doesn't play anything the same way twice ever would consider you to be nuts if you do.
Of course, anybody is free to disregard my comment, I'm only a novice player.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/15/2011: 08:06:17
Phillip,
Hope things are well for you on your side of the water. It sounds like there have been some rough times. I don't know if you have been to Flying Eagle's homepage, but you have to hear Flying Eagle play before minimizing what it means for him to progress. He can play!
Just to offer the thought: Recently I have talked to 2 pro level players both with multiple recordings on the market. One told me that he was with Earl recently and someone gave Earl a banjo to play and he ripped off a great rendition of an old standard in a new way that just blew the guy away.
This reinforces what the other player told me: Earl never gets stagnant. He told me, "each time I listen to him, I come up with something new." And this player had listened to Earls for umpteen hours.
I don't know how you go wrong studying from a creative genius that you have always learned a new twist from?
Also I think the realistic goal in listening and copying might be to play better, rather than to "Play Like Earl" (sorry Larry Perkins) because I don't know if that can happen.
Just food for thought.
Ken
phb - Posted - 03/15/2011: 09:46:54
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Phillip,
Hope things are well for you on your side of the water. It sounds like there have been some rough times.
What makes you believe that there have been some rough times other than what's been on the news for days? I replied in the very same style people were told what's THE WAY TO DO IT.
In my opinion there are many ways to improve your playing. There are two things that matter:
1) what are your goals
2) how can you achieve them in the most efficient way
If you want to record another Bluegrass Album Band CD, you should try to play everything exactly like it was recorded on the original recordings. Of course, you will have to be a very good player to actually achieve that goal. Thus, if a person can play anything just like one of those banjo virtuosos, you can safely assume that that person is a very good player. However, that doesn't mean that learning to play everything just like Earl were an efficient way of learning to play banjo or even Scruggs style.
quote:
I don't know if you have been to Flying Eagle's homepage, but you have to hear Flying Eagle play before minimizing what it means for him to progress. He can play!
After 34 years he ought to play well. I just listened to one of his recordings. I sure can't produce that many notes per second as he does, I probably lack 33.5 years of practice. However, I couldn't help but notice that his recording of "Shelton Special" doesn't sound like Allan Shelton at all even though he may be playing exactly the same notes. Perhaps another 34 years will do the trick.
quote:
Just to offer the thought: Recently I have talked to 2 pro level players both with multiple recordings on the market. One told me that he was with Earl recently and someone gave Earl a banjo to play and he ripped off a great rendition of an old standard in a new way that just blew the guy away.
This reinforces what the other player told me: Earl never gets stagnant. He told me, "each time I listen to him, I come up with something new." And this player had listened to Earls for umpteen hours.
Earl just visited me last week and told me that playing everything like him is nonesense. All players of the banjo orchestra that happened to be at my place when Earl dropped in agreed on that.
Just like the 34 years story you are adding further proof that listening to your idol and playing everything like he does will not make you a complete player on itself because you surely cannot develop an ability of coming up with something new by learning to play everything just like Scruggs himself. Even Scruggs himself doesn't play anything just like Scruggs plays it. Or to put in another way: how can you achieve the goal of playing like Scruggs if Scruggs doesn't stagnate?
quote:
I don't know how you go wrong studying from a creative genius that you have always learned a new twist from?
If you have unlimited time on your hands, you cannot go wrong that way.
Just to make my point even clearer: yes, it surely can be a great exercise to learn some tunes just the way they were recorded. However, I don't see the point of making this exercise your main routine.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/15/2011: 10:54:56
Phillip,
Always an honor to talk to a man that knows Earl. I am glad you went to him for advice. I am just curious why he changed his mind and now thinks people learning note for note from his playing is bad so soon after coming out with his second edition of his book. :(
Who said the goal was to play like Earl? (Although I would love to and Scruggs style weather it be played by Crowe, Stanley, Ingram, Osborne etc is what I love and want to hear.) For me I just want to get better and I think that is what all want. I am not talented enough or young enough to get near Earls fundamentals. IMO all the study of Scruggs that I can do and the process of the study will cause improvement for me. That process FOR ME has been great for my improvement and fun..
The good players have told me that knowing all you can of Earl allows you to combine Earls basics with ideas from other players,other types of music or with what you come up with on your own. When you combine all those sources you could be unique. I would think that after 34 years and being that good it can be tough to add to any part of that recipe and that you go where you can get the best thought provoking sources.If Flying Eagle tells me it is still Earl then it gives me that much more respect for the source because I know Flying Eagle (like all) wants to be efficient and productive and that Flying Eagle paid his dues to know the best way for him to do so.
Also I am not sure about your premise that you must come up with something new to be a complete player? I am not sure there is such a thing as a complete player in banjo or any endeavor. Complete implies to me a finished product where nothing more can be added on to. Music is an expression and being complete (for that point in time and that situation) is the ability to express what you want to express. What you want to express and what you need to do it can change with time and situations. It seems like (as in Earl's case) there is always a new twist down the road and a fresh way to say something.
I will confess that my part of this conversation is somewhat theoretical because I am no where near the level of combining sources to make creative play or near your level. I would ask what your theory is for finding ways to be inspired, stimulate new thoughts and improve your playing after one plays at such a high level and has been playing for 34 years? It seems like you have been playing a relatively short time and have not had to face looking for ideas after 34 years.
It also seems to me like you have a great aptitude and passion for the banjo and the music and I wish you well on your journey.
And yes I agree what you do depends upon what your goals are,what works best for you, and also what makes you feel it is right for you. Have a good day. (sorry, it is night there now. have a good night)
Ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/15/2011 11:04:47
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/15/2011: 11:06:10
The 34 years caught my attention because it took me almost exactly that long to figure out how bad I was on the banjo and decide to change course. For some people the time between year 1 and year 34 can produce nothing worthwhile musical. What Philpp is saying makes sense to me. If you aren't making satisfying progress (honest) in a year, something fundamental is not working for you. That is my experience, anyway.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 03/15/2011: 11:31:50
I realize some peoples goal may be to always play it as exactly as it was recorded, but that is not where transcribing has to stop as I already pointed out. You take what someone else did, find the parts of it you like, and hopefully put your own spin on it.
At a deeper end, it can also lead one to think about new concepts and ideas that they didn't before. For example, I didn't know I could substitute this over this other one.
It could be as simple as, I like the way this guy phrases or attacks his notes, let's see what he is doing. It doesn't have to be about learning something note for note. If you limit it to just learning notes, you are missing a lot.
The process, if done correctly, usually ends up in people not sounding like clones, unless they choose to, as people will naturally take from a variety of sources, and not just limit their choices to Earl.
I've been playing music about 18 years now and I still transcribe about 1-2 times a month. Nearly every single great musician I know still does this as well.
For me, It's grown to be something more complex than just stealing licks, but I still do it nevertheless. No one has ever accused me of being a "clone." I think this is mostly because I draw from a variety of music: Earl, Reno, Shelton, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Clifford Brown, Bach, Fiddle Music, etc.....whatever I happen to like and get something from.
I often find the people that harp about originality and creativity being impeded by studying others are devoid of such characteristics themselves. Either that or they sound like a generic musician whose lack of studying shows.
They seek to criticize methods that expose the flaws in their own playing. They haven't done the homework and therefore recommend others don't either. I don't think ANYONE is saying to sit in front of a recording and transcribe at the expense of everything else. It's all about balance. Learn how music works, learn melodies, learn the popular licks, learn how to get the sounds that make up the stylistic characteristics of the music you are interested in. Most of all-Listen A LOT.
I have heard Jim play in person a number of times now, and he doesn't sound like a clone despite all of that studying. He was taught by Al Osteen, the same guy that taught Kristen Scott Benson, Charles Wood, and LOTS of other well-known banjoists. The guy's methods must have been good to have turned out an IBMA banjo player of the year, three time national banjo champion, amongst other great players.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 03/15/2011 11:38:42
phb - Posted - 03/15/2011: 13:41:22
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Always an honor to talk to a man that knows Earl. I am glad you went to him for advice. I am just curious why he changed his mind and now thinks people learning note for note from his playing is bad so soon after coming out with his second edition of his book. :(
You are aware of the fact that Earl Scruggs did not transcribe his recordings for his book? That he doesn't read sheet music?
quote:
Who said the goal was to play like Earl?
When you play the exact same notes that a great banjo player plays in a recording and you don't sound like him, you must be doing something wrong. Unless you are implying that the recording itself is flawed or there is an equally well sounding but different way of playing the same notes, the goal should be to sound like the recording.
quote:
For me I just want to get better and I think that is what all want.
Yes. At the fastest speed possible, I suppose.
quote:
I am not talented enough or young enough to get near Earls fundamentals. IMO all the study of Scruggs that I can do and the process of the study will cause improvement for me. That process FOR ME has been great for my improvement and fun..
I thought you were a great fan of learning to turn melodies into Scruggs-style arrangements on the fly and had posted something about an eye-opening experience. Perhaps I mistake you for somebody else. If you are serious about this, how will playing tunes exactly the way they were recorded help you in that endeavor? Of course, you will want to find out what exactly some player was doing in some particular part of a recording because it sounds good and caught your attention. You will shamelessly nick that ornamentation or lick. Perhaps it will help you come up with a similar motif of your own. Combining other people's inventions to form something new is the first step to a style of your own. Nonetheless, playing everything like it was recorded isn't the best way of becoming a good player. It is one way, yes. Is it the most efficient? I highly doubt it. Is it a way to develop a style of your own? I don't think so.
quote:
The good players have told me that knowing all you can of Earl allows you to combine Earls basics with ideas from other players, other types of music or with what you come up with on your own. When you combine all those sources you could be unique.
Sure, knowledge never hurts. There are those people that are afraid of listening to others because they want every note they play to be their own invention. Those people rarely come up with anything original but spend their time reinventing wheels. I agree with Jody Hughes' comment in this regard.
quote:
I would think that after 34 years and being that good it can be tough to add to any part of that recipe and that you go where you can get the best thought provoking sources.If Flying Eagle tells me it is still Earl then it gives me that much more respect for the source because I know Flying Eagle (like all) wants to be efficient and productive and that Flying Eagle paid his dues to know the best way for him to do so.
Why not choose sources on your own? If I like something, be it Scruggs or anybody else, I am interested in the notes. Being new to Bluegrass and banjo, I hear interesting stuff every day.
quote:
Also I am not sure about your premise that you must come up with something new to be a complete player? I am not sure there is such a thing as a complete player in banjo or any endeavor. Complete implies to me a finished product where nothing more can be added on to.
Yes, completeness probably is something that cannot be reached, however, I am willing to say that you are definitely not nearing completeness if you cannot come up with something original.
quote:
I will confess that my part of this conversation is somewhat theoretical because I am no where near the level of combining sources to make creative play or near your level. I would ask what your theory is for finding ways to be inspired, stimulate new thoughts and improve your playing after one plays at such a high level and has been playing for 34 years? It seems like you have been playing a relatively short time and have not had to face looking for ideas after 34 years.
It's not so much about what else there is to explore when you have been playing for 34 years. In my understanding the question is whether it is wise to spend those 34 years on playing tunes exactly how other people play them.
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/15/2011: 15:57:35
Hey Phillip,
If you have a learning regimen that works better for you, that's great. I wish you the best of success at learning to play the banjo how you want to play it. I like bluegrass banjo playing best, and that's what I focus on. I know what's worked for me, and is still helping me to grow as a musician as well as maintain what level of skill I've already attained. I've been doing it that way all these years because that's how I was taught to learn by my mentor. If you disagree, whatever. Do what feels right to you. Personally I enjoy learning to play some of the breaks and backup on songs that I've listened to - I just dig it. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm certainly not apologizing for it. Again, if doing that isn't your style, that's cool with me. You can be a good, solid player without it. My comments were related to "woodshedding" the work of great banjo players in order to hone playing skills. Maybe you don't think that works. Ok. And by the way, I feel very strongly that my doctrine of practice and learning has helped me to be MUCH stronger at improvising and adding my own flavor to songs that I play.
Just curious, though... you commented on the version of "Shelton Special" that I posted here. I never said that anything I do sounds EXACTLY like anybody else. That's damn near impossible, even for a professional musician. Everything I've posted on here is flawed, and it's the flaws and mistakes that stick out to me whenever I listen to a recording of my own playing. But to say that my "Shelton Special" sounds NOTHING like the original recording... really, Phillip? Could you please elaborate? It's a pretty specific progression in that song, not just a bunch of standard licks thrown together like "Your Love is Like a Flower" or "Cabin in Caroline". To your ear, did I get the notes wrong? Is it a timing issue? I'd like to play it better - please help. If you can give me some good advice, I'll scrap that version of "Shelton Special" and put another one on here based on what you recommend.
Thanks for listening,
JW
Edited by - Flying Eagle on 03/15/2011 16:00:32
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/15/2011: 16:17:37
quote:
Originally posted by phb
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Always an honor to talk to a man that knows Earl. I am glad you went to him for advice. I am just curious why he changed his mind and now thinks people learning note for note from his playing is bad so soon after coming out with his second edition of his book. :(
You are aware of the fact that Earl Scruggs did not transcribe his recordings for his book? That he doesn't read sheet music?
K. Yes I am aware but he endorsed it.
quote:
Who said the goal was to play like Earl?
When you play the exact same notes that a great banjo player plays in a recording and you don't sound like him, you must be doing something wrong. Unless you are implying that the recording itself is flawed or there is an equally well sounding but different way of playing the same notes, the goal should be to sound like the recording.
K. Just because it is not exactly like his does not make it "wrong". Your differences might be a reflection of you talent ability or you feeling. I have been told that different people have a bit different timing. It is an assumption and a bad one to think that one or the other is flawed. You seem to be wanting to make a moral equivalency to playing music. If that is your way of thinking/believing - good for you. But it is not mine
quote:
For me I just want to get better and I think that is what all want.
Yes. At the fastest speed possible, I suppose.
K. Yes why not.
quote:
I am not talented enough or young enough to get near Earls fundamentals. IMO all the study of Scruggs that I can do and the process of the study will cause improvement for me. That process FOR ME has been great for my improvement and fun..
I thought you were a great fan of learning to turn melodies into Scruggs-style arrangements on the fly and had posted something about an eye-opening experience. Perhaps I mistake you for somebody else. If you are serious about this, how will playing tunes exactly the way they were recorded help you in that endeavor? Of course, you will want to find out what exactly some player was doing in some particular part of a recording because it sounds good and caught your attention. You will shamelessly nick that ornamentation or lick. Perhaps it will help you come up with a similar motif of your own. Combining other people's inventions to form something new is the first step to a style of your own. Nonetheless, playing everything like it was recorded isn't the best way of becoming a good player. It is one way, yes. Is it the most efficient? I highly doubt it. Is it a way to develop a style of your own? I don't think so.
K. No you have not mistaken me for someone else. It is my belief if I learn his style well enough I can get to the point of doing it on the fly. The limitations of may age are expressed in Malcom Gladwell's book "Outliers". At 59 years of age, I don't know if I have the time to get the repetitions on this or not. We will see.
Read Jody Hughes post about being well versed in the basics. To me the bluegrass banjo I want is Scruggs Style. to me it is the most efficient way to learn the basics. You can be totally in the Scruggs style and play the same tune many different ways. I don't think I have the memory to play everything as he could. But I hope through listening and emulating to be able to have a working feel for his style.
Yes I will shamelessly nick everything I can. You see this done all the time in sports. When someone does something well many try to copy it. Then how good it is depends upon execution.
It is a matter of opinion of what is the best way to become a good player. Like you say: depends upon your goals and what you think is efficient. We may disagree on this or it may be different for each of us.
quote:
The good players have told me that knowing all you can of Earl allows you to combine Earls basics with ideas from other players, other types of music or with what you come up with on your own. When you combine all those sources you could be unique.
Sure, knowledge never hurts. There are those people that are afraid of listening to others because they want every note they play to be their own invention. Those people rarely come up with anything original but spend their time reinventing wheels. I agree with Jody Hughes' comment in this regard.
K. I am fortunate that I have not met those people. The better players I have known seem to have an even greater appreciation of other's styles because they know the work that went into it.
quote:
I would think that after 34 years and being that good it can be tough to add to any part of that recipe and that you go where you can get the best thought provoking sources.If Flying Eagle tells me it is still Earl then it gives me that much more respect for the source because I know Flying Eagle (like all) wants to be efficient and productive and that Flying Eagle paid his dues to know the best way for him to do so.
Why not choose sources on your own? If I like something, be it Scruggs or anybody else, I am interested in the notes. Being new to Bluegrass and banjo, I hear interesting stuff every day.
K. I do chose the sources I want as does I think everyone.
quote:
Also I am not sure about your premise that you must come up with something new to be a complete player? I am not sure there is such a thing as a complete player in banjo or any endeavor. Complete implies to me a finished product where nothing more can be added on to.
Yes, completeness probably is something that cannot be reached, however, I am willing to say that you are definitely not nearing completeness if you cannot come up with something original.
K. Philip we have already agreed that completeness cannot be reached and then you say you cannot be complete without being original. I am going to guess that by being complete you mean either or being good or reaching your potential. I will give you my though with this basis in mind.. I spent many years in a competitive athletic field. All the people that "didn't know" talked about the easily seen physical talents to make an assessment of what was good. But the game is not only played on a physical level it is also played on a mental and emotional level. That is why often times the most startling innovative players?teams do not always win. Keeping that in mind please understand that my desire is to play within the Scruggs style and to be able to do so in solid time, with good pulse/drive, with clear notes, and to present a recognizable melody . I personally would feel very complete (satisfied) if I could do that. Original does not matter to me. Lombardi (maybe America's greatest coach of all time) ran the same Green Bay Sweep at you all day long and won world championships with it. It was not the creativity that made them great but the execution and the discipline and the consistency.
quote:
I will confess that my part of this conversation is somewhat theoretical because I am no where near the level of combining sources to make creative play or near your level. I would ask what your theory is for finding ways to be inspired, stimulate new thoughts and improve your playing after one plays at such a high level and has been playing for 34 years? It seems like you have been playing a relatively short time and have not had to face looking for ideas after 34 years.
It's not so much about what else there is to explore when you have been playing for 34 years. In my understanding the question is whether it is wise to spend those 34 years on playing tunes exactly how other people play them.
K. Different ways of thinking about things. I think it is unwise to try to build a bridge when you don't know what all the other engineers have done before you. But I don't think one is right and the other is wrong. You just have to know what will make you satisfied. It seems like you have a need to create and I wish you well in that. My need is to execute and feel the pulse.
K. Please tell me how you get all the lines separating the quotes.
Ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/15/2011 16:18:36
Dave Magram - Posted - 03/15/2011: 19:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by phb
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Phillip,
Hope things are well for you on your side of the water. It sounds like there have been some rough times.
What makes you believe that there have been some rough times other than what's been on the news for days? I replied in the very same style people were told what's THE WAY TO DO IT.
In my opinion there are many ways to improve your playing. There are two things that matter:
1) what are your goals
2) how can you achieve them in the most efficient way
If you want to record another Bluegrass Album Band CD, you should try to play everything exactly like it was recorded on the original recordings. Of course, you will have to be a very good player to actually achieve that goal. Thus, if a person can play anything just like one of those banjo virtuosos, you can safely assume that that person is a very good player. However, that doesn't mean that learning to play everything just like Earl were an efficient way of learning to play banjo or even Scruggs style.
quote:
I don't know if you have been to Flying Eagle's homepage, but you have to hear Flying Eagle play before minimizing what it means for him to progress. He can play!
After 34 years he ought to play well. I just listened to one of his recordings. I sure can't produce that many notes per second as he does, I probably lack 33.5 years of practice. However, I couldn't help but notice that his recording of "Shelton Special" doesn't sound like Allan Shelton at all even though he may be playing exactly the same notes. Perhaps another 34 years will do the trick.
quote:
Just to offer the thought: Recently I have talked to 2 pro level players both with multiple recordings on the market. One told me that he was with Earl recently and someone gave Earl a banjo to play and he ripped off a great rendition of an old standard in a new way that just blew the guy away.
This reinforces what the other player told me: Earl never gets stagnant. He told me, "each time I listen to him, I come up with something new." And this player had listened to Earls for umpteen hours.
Earl just visited me last week and told me that playing everything like him is nonesense. All players of the banjo orchestra that happened to be at my place when Earl dropped in agreed on that.
Just like the 34 years story you are adding further proof that listening to your idol and playing everything like he does will not make you a complete player on itself because you surely cannot develop an ability of coming up with something new by learning to play everything just like Scruggs himself. Even Scruggs himself doesn't play anything just like Scruggs plays it. Or to put in another way: how can you achieve the goal of playing like Scruggs if Scruggs doesn't stagnate?
quote:
I don't know how you go wrong studying from a creative genius that you have always learned a new twist from?
If you have unlimited time on your hands, you cannot go wrong that way.
Just to make my point even clearer: yes, it surely can be a great exercise to learn some tunes just the way they were recorded. However, I don't see the point of making this exercise your main routine.
Phb,
I am quite impressed by how much knowledge you have accumulated about how to play the banjo in just six months!
I am amazed at how much more you know about playing the banjo than Flying Eagle, who after all has been playing as you pointed out, "33.5 years" longer than you have.
It is simply astounding how much more you know than the dozens of great players interviewed in the Masters of Five String Banjo book who reported that copping licks from Earl is how they learn to play.
And to think that these great players like Ralph, Sonny, JD, Shelton, Keith, etc. who probably have about 500 years of banjo playing experience amongst them have been just wasting their time playing so uncreatively is heart-wrenching.
If only they had known that there was another way…
But what I am most impressed with is your absolute certainty that you are right.
That’s the kind of certainty possessed only by great leaders.
Men like Captain Edward John Smith of Britain, for example, who refused to listen to lesser men and by ignoring them was able to claim his place in history.
His nay-sayers and doubters? No one remembers them.
That’s the spirit, Phb.
Given your innate musical genius and personal certainty, I am sure that before another six months goes by, you will have accomplished far more on the banjo than anyone could ever have imagined.
We have great expectations of you.
Good luck.
-Dave
bigcraig - Posted - 03/15/2011: 22:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
I am trying to learn to play by ear have been using the Amazing Slow Downer. I would like to get opinions regarding if I should transcribe what I hear and learn. Obviously I want to get away from tab but I wonder if the process of transcribing would make me better learn and retain what I have heard?
Thanks to any that would like to share their thought with me on this.
Ken
Ken,
I think transcribing is a good exercise, and it's not easy. You listen to the entire piece note for note, probably with the banjo in your hands, learn the notes and work out some possible fingerings to play them and put it together in a phrase. You may need to edit what you wrote down a few times. It helps you learn the process of translating what you hear into what you play. When you're done you may find that you don't actually need to refer that much to what you wrote, because your brain learned it along the way.
As you improve at learning by ear, you will probably be able to short circuit this process somewhat and not need to write it down. For one thing you won't be picking up a pencil or typing into a tab program as you go along. You may still need to write it down for more complex tunes. See what works for you.
Some tunes you may not get there. I tried on and off for over a year to learn Tony Furtado's Hartford. (About 6 months in I learned that he played it in Double C rather than standard tuning!) I was learning by ear and transcribing into tabledit. I learned the melody very well, but I couldn't work out good fingerings for some passages and incorporate the bass notes that he drops in with his thumb. Eventually I gave up and bought his tab book, to learn how he plays it. Some of it was very different from what I thought, but I was able to pick it up fairly quickly because of the time I had spent thinking about it and learning the tune. I can now play it without the tab and I'm working on making it cleaner and smoother.
Even if you are learning a tune from tab, there is no doubt in my mind that listening to a recording over and over for the nuances helps you know the tune. My best personal example of this is Bela Fleck's Whitewater. I learned that from the tab, but it sounded very flat when I played it. I listened to the recording dozens of times while reading and marking accents on the tab so I could better pick out the melody and sound more like Bela. I don't think I really looked at those accents much in the end, but the process of identifying them helped me recognise and replicate them.
A lot of this has been said before on the thread, but that's what I have found from my experience of transcribing and/or careful study of a limited number of tunes. Incidentally I have recordings of both of these on my homepage (another part of the learning process). Both are somewhat flawed, and I'm pretty sure I can play them better than I recorded them. Also I'm fairly locked into the written arrangements having used the tab a lot. But I sure learned a lot in going through the process.
Hope you find my comments useful.
Craig
Edited by - bigcraig on 03/15/2011 22:30:17
phb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 03:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Eagle
I've been doing it that way all these years because that's how I was taught to learn by my mentor.
And you have never questioned how and what you were taught? I guess this shows that you are indeed very pleased with the outcome of that approach.
quote:
If you disagree, whatever. Do what feels right to you.
I will, I will. I will also analyse some tunes to play them just like they were recorded just because I love every note of them. But I'm not going to tell everybody that this is the one and only way of becoming a good player.
quote:
Personally I enjoy learning to play some of the breaks and backup on songs that I've listened to - I just dig it. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'm certainly not apologizing for it.
No, there is nothing wrong with that. It is, however, not very polite to jump into a discussion about different teaching approaches proclaiming that this is THE way to do it. This implies that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't have the insight and knowledge that you have and is inherently wrong.
quote:
Just curious, though... you commented on the version of "Shelton Special" that I posted here. I never said that anything I do sounds EXACTLY like anybody else. That's damn near impossible, even for a professional musician. Everything I've posted on here is flawed, and it's the flaws and mistakes that stick out to me whenever I listen to a recording of my own playing. But to say that my "Shelton Special" sounds NOTHING like the original recording... really, Phillip? Could you please elaborate? It's a pretty specific progression in that song, not just a bunch of standard licks thrown together like "Your Love is Like a Flower" or "Cabin in Caroline". To your ear, did I get the notes wrong? Is it a timing issue? I'd like to play it better - please help. If you can give me some good advice, I'll scrap that version of "Shelton Special" and put another one on here based on what you recommend.
You got all the notes right, at least I didn't spot a false one. However, in my opinion your recording lacks the lightness and bounce of the original nonetheless. It sounds rushed which appears to me to be a lack of rhythm and use of dynamics.
Of course, I'd be very happy to ever reach your level of playing.
Oh, and my name is spelled "Philipp", 1 L, 3 Ps.
phb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 04:19:31
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
I am just curious why he changed his mind and now thinks people learning note for note from his playing is bad so soon after coming out with his second edition of his book. :(
Do you only read what fits into your view? It was already pointed out that in Scruggs' book he endorses quite the opposite of what you are saying. He recommends playing chords and then to work chords and rolls into songs:
"Playing music is much more interesting to me when a tune is not played the same way time and time again. Keep in mind that the tablatures in the Song Section of the book merely reflect the way I played any particular song at one given time. By learning many different roll patterns and how to work them into a song, you'll have a variety of methods from which to choose when picking any tune."
Bottom of page 57 of the revised and enhanced edition of "Earl Scruggs and the 5-string banjo".
quote:
quote:
You are aware of the fact that Earl Scruggs did not transcribe his recordings for his book? That he doesn't read sheet music?
Yes I am aware but he endorsed it.
You are confusing "meeting a demand in a market" with "endorsing a learning/teaching method".
quote:
Just because it is not exactly like his does not make it "wrong". Your differences might be a reflection of you talent ability or you feeling. I have been told that different people have a bit different timing.
If you can't make it sound like somebody else, why even bother trying?
quote:
It is an assumption and a bad one to think that one or the other is flawed. You seem to be wanting to make a moral equivalency to playing music.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
quote:
quote:
quote:
For me I just want to get better and I think that is what all want.
Yes. At the fastest speed possible, I suppose.
Yes why not.
Thus, it is a valid question to ask which way is the most efficient, isn't it?
quote:
No you have not mistaken me for someone else. It is my belief if I learn his style well enough I can get to the point of doing it on the fly. The limitations of may age are expressed in Malcom Gladwell's book "Outliers". At 59 years of age, I don't know if I have the time to get the repetitions on this or not. We will see.
Scruggs became a famous banjo player when he had been playing less time than you can expect to have. Of course, there is only one Earl Scruggs, but it should be possible to become a fairly good banjo player in something like five years. We are dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants. We do not need to make the process of switching from two-finger picking to three-finger picking, we can start with three-finger picking right from our first lesson. We only have to follow the foot prints of legions of people who have successfully become good banjo players. We can enjoy and take advantage of their experiences in their pursuit of banjo-happyness. Scruggs didn't have a teacher, we can choose from learning material that was unimaginable in the 1930s.
quote:
Read Jody Hughes post about being well versed in the basics. To me the bluegrass banjo I want is Scruggs Style. to me it is the most efficient way to learn the basics. You can be totally in the Scruggs style and play the same tune many different ways. I don't think I have the memory to play everything as he could. But I hope through listening and emulating to be able to have a working feel for his style.
I totally agree. What you are saying here is something very different than saying that playing everything exactly like Scruggs did/does is the one way to become a good player.
quote:
The better players I have known seem to have an even greater appreciation of other's styles because they know the work that went into it.
I remember reading an interview with Jeff Beck. In case you don't know who he is, Jeff Beck is the guitar hero of many rock guitar heroes. He played with Jennifer Batten for some time. He commented on her playing that he found her eight-finger tapping to be very impressive and that it would take him quite some practice time to be able to play like that. What I find so funny about this comment is that it says two things: he appreciates another great player's abilities while there is no doubt that he could also play like that. The same words coming from the mouth of a different player would seem arrogant, however, this was Jeff Beck saying that he was impressed by somebody else's playing. There can't be a bigger compliment.
quote:
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Yes, completeness probably is something that cannot be reached, however, I am willing to say that you are definitely not nearing completeness if you cannot come up with something original.
K. Philip we have already agreed that completeness cannot be reached and then you say you cannot be complete without being original.
What I wrote (or meant to write, remember, English is a foreign language to me) is that you certainly aren't even close to completeness if you cannot come up with anything original. Even though you may not be able to ever reach the goal of being "complete", you can be at different distances from the goal.
quote:
Keeping that in mind please understand that my desire is to play within the Scruggs style and to be able to do so in solid time, with good pulse/drive, with clear notes, and to present a recognizable melody . I personally would feel very complete (satisfied) if I could do that.
These are some of my goals, too. I also would like to explore some old-timey and Celtic music along the way.
quote:
Original does not matter to me.
Well, to me it does. I won't admire a painter who is painting copies of van Gogh paintings all the time. There are so many who can do that. You can order van Gogh style paintings for little money from China.
quote:
I think it is unwise to try to build a bridge when you don't know what all the other engineers have done before you.
True. To each his own but if you are content with building the same bridge over and over again referring to prefabricated tables describing the materials to select for a given circumstance without being able to make the calculus yourself, well, that appears to be a bit one-dimensional to me. Of course, you can hope to somehow understand where the numbers in the table you are using for building your bridges come from but I prefer being taught the fundamental principles rather than just accepting something as being the way to do it. In the time when there were only arched stone bridges somebody still had to invent steel bridges without arches. Well, perhaps that is just me, I'm an engineer and a patent attorney, my professional life is all about innovation.
quote:
K. Please tell me how you get all the lines separating the quotes.
Ken
Each block of comments needs to be surrounded by [ quote ] and [ /quote ] (remove spaces), the "/" always signals an end of a block just like a closing bracket. You can check whether the formatting is correct by using the "preview" option. If you mind the correct nesting, everything will come out right:
[ quote ] [ quote ] -- your previous comment [ /quote ]
-- my answer to your comment [ /quote ]
-- your second reply to my answer
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/16/2011: 04:34:29
Craig,
Thank you for your comments. They were very specific and addressed the concerns and hopes I had. When I thought of transcribing I could see potential good and bad. The bad could be that it would cause me to lessen my dependence upon memory and make my learning more superficial. The good that I thought it might bring would be to deepen my concentration on what I had learned and to make me more exact. You confirmed the later more through your experiences.
Thank you.
Ken
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/16/2011: 05:51:51
quote:
Originally posted by phb
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
I am just curious why he changed his mind and now thinks people learning note for note from his playing is bad so soon after coming out with his second edition of his book. :(
Do you only read what fits into your view? It was already pointed out that in Scruggs' book he endorses quite the opposite of what you are saying. He recommends playing chords and then to work chords and rolls into songs:
K. No but if something resonates with an intuition I have, I use it as affirmation.
"Playing music is much more interesting to me when a tune is not played the same way time and time again. Keep in mind that the tablatures in the Song Section of the book merely reflect the way I played any particular song at one given time. By learning many different roll patterns and how to work them into a song, you'll have a variety of methods from which to choose when picking any tune."
Bottom of page 57 of the revised and enhanced edition of "Earl Scruggs and the 5-string banjo".
K. Good but when you learn a tune note for note you learn much more than rolls. You learn different ways to accent notes, different licks, and different rhythmical patterns. All of these can be used in different combination's and contexts later on. It is like learning new words and new ways of talking so that you can express yourself with variety later on. (If I get to that point).
quote:
quote:
You are aware of the fact that Earl Scruggs did not transcribe his recordings for his book? That he doesn't read sheet music?
Yes I am aware but he endorsed it.
You are confusing "meeting a demand in a market" with "endorsing a learning/teaching method".
K. Phillipp I thank that is a little cynical about Mr. Scruggs. When that book came out it was revolutionary. There was hardly any instructional material and I think many excellent players who were wearing out records slowing them down and not getting certain licks were able to finally see some things. I also believe his book is a very good learning tool and is not just there to meet a market demand.
Scruggs didn't transcribe his book but Bill Keith did. He is great in execution and in creativity. It seems like Keith was born out of studying/transcribing the basics of Scruggs.
quote:
Just because it is not exactly like his does not make it "wrong". Your differences might be a reflection of you talent ability or you feeling. I have been told that different people have a bit different timing.
If you can't make it sound like somebody else, why even bother trying?
K. Just to make the good sound myself and enjoy doing it. Just to utilize the rhythmical part of the instrument and feel the pulse of the music. Heck much to the consternation of the person sitting next to me, I enjoy humming with a song and tapping my foot. My ego is not such that I think or need to think I can invent an better wheel every time out. Like I said I would be happy and preforming solidly. For me that can still be as valid an expression (self actualization) as it was for Bernstien in front of the Boston Symphony. If you feel the need to create to be satisfied, that is what you need and that is OK. People are different and it is just not that way for me. I want the melody and the timing and the clear pretty notes of the banjo.
quote:
It is an assumption and a bad one to think that one or the other is flawed. You seem to be wanting to make a moral equivalency to playing music.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
K. "Here is your quote I am referring to: "When you play the exact same notes that a great banjo player plays in a recording and you don't sound like him, you must be doing something wrong. Unless you are implying that the recording itself is flawed...."
Your use the terms wrong and flawed seems to imply that there is a right and wrong in this situation. There may be a preference for each but that does not make either rendition "right or wrong". There is nothing set in stone that says either A or B is correct and that is your only option.
quote:
quote:
quote:
For me I just want to get better and I think that is what all want.
Yes. At the fastest speed possible, I suppose.
Yes why not.
Thus, it is a valid question to ask which way is the most efficient, isn't it?
K. Yes and my opinion for me is the same as Flying Eagles.
quote:
No you have not mistaken me for someone else. It is my belief if I learn his style well enough I can get to the point of doing it on the fly. The limitations of may age are expressed in Malcom Gladwell's book "Outliers". At 59 years of age, I don't know if I have the time to get the repetitions on this or not. We will see.
Scruggs became a famous banjo player when he had been playing less time than you can expect to have. Of course, there is only one Earl Scruggs, but it should be possible to become a fairly good banjo player in something like five years. We are dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants. We do not need to make the process of switching from two-finger picking to three-finger picking, we can start with three-finger picking right from our first lesson. We only have to follow the foot prints of legions of people who have successfully become good banjo players. We can enjoy and take advantage of their experiences in their pursuit of banjo-happyness. Scruggs didn't have a teacher, we can choose from learning material that was unimaginable in the 1930s.
K. I am trying to take advantage of the experiences of the "legions of people who have bedome good banjo players" by trying to emulate their learing experience of slowing it down (using Amazing Slow Downer) and trying to learn Earl. I have heard of many great players who became great that way.
quote:
Read Jody Hughes post about being well versed in the basics. To me the bluegrass banjo I want is Scruggs Style. to me it is the most efficient way to learn the basics. You can be totally in the Scruggs style and play the same tune many different ways. I don't think I have the memory to play everything as he could. But I hope through listening and emulating to be able to have a working feel for his style.
I totally agree. What you are saying here is something very different than saying that playing everything exactly like Scruggs did/does is the one way to become a good player.
K. There are many ways to become a "good player". But to me to become a good Scruggs style player this is the way to go.
quote:
The better players I have known seem to have an even greater appreciation of other's styles because they know the work that went into it.
I remember reading an interview with Jeff Beck. In case you don't know who he is, Jeff Beck is the guitar hero of many rock guitar heroes. He played with Jennifer Batten for some time. He commented on her playing that he found her eight-finger tapping to be very impressive and that it would take him quite some practice time to be able to play like that. What I find so funny about this comment is that it says two things: he appreciates another great player's abilities while there is no doubt that he could also play like that. The same words coming from the mouth of a different player would seem arrogant, however, this was Jeff Beck saying that he was impressed by somebody else's playing. There can't be a bigger compliment.
quote:
quote:
Yes, completeness probably is something that cannot be reached, however, I am willing to say that you are definitely not nearing completeness if you cannot come up with something original.
K. Philip we have already agreed that completeness cannot be reached and then you say you cannot be complete without being original.
What I wrote (or meant to write, remember, English is a foreign language to me) is that you certainly aren't even close to completeness if you cannot come up with anything original. Even though you may not be able to ever reach the goal of being "complete", you can be at different distances from the goal.
K. Completeness is a nebulous term. Music is about self - doing something the way you feel is right. The only good or bad or completeness comes from within you and how you view it. If I reach the goals that I have described to you than I am complete for me. Everybody hears the tune differently and has to sing it their own way. Obviously you and I hear it differently. No problems. Enjoy
quote:
Keeping that in mind please understand that my desire is to play within the Scruggs style and to be able to do so in solid time, with good pulse/drive, with clear notes, and to present a recognizable melody . I personally would feel very complete (satisfied) if I could do that.
These are some of my goals, too. I also would like to explore some old-timey and Celtic music along the way.
quote:
Original does not matter to me.
Well, to me it does. I won't admire a painter who is painting copies of van Gogh paintings all the time. There are so many who can do that. You can order van Gogh style paintings for little money from China.
K, Like I say I like execution. I like hearing the crispness/clerness of each note and the drive in the playing. JD on the Bluegrass Band Albums was great to me.
quote:
I think it is unwise to try to build a bridge when you don't know what all the other engineers have done before you.
True. To each his own but if you are content with building the same bridge over and over again referring to prefabricated tables describing the materials to select for a given circumstance without being able to make the calculus yourself, well, that appears to be a bit one-dimensional to me. Of course, you can hope to somehow understand where the numbers in the table you are using for building your bridges come from but I prefer being taught the fundamental principles rather than just accepting something as being the way to do it. In the time when there were only arched stone bridges somebody still had to invent steel bridges without arches. Well, perhaps that is just me, I'm an engineer and a patent attorney, my professional life is all about innovation.
K. To me the fundamental principals of Scruggs playing is how he played it. I can chord and strum. I hope to have enough of his fundamentals to be able to make the decision of what sounds best where. You have been in engineering and I have been in athletics. I have seen a lot of guys get in trouble trying to be cute and ignoring fundamentals. So you see from my background as I have said, I like execution. I have also found that you can take a few fundamentals and use them in a variety of ways to be consistently inconsistent. In music that would be the equivalence using the same building blocks in such a variety of ways or making slight variations on the standard that the playing could sound fresh and creative. For example think of all the songs that can come from just and 8 note scale. Simple 8 notes but it offers and almost endless variety.
quote:
K. Please tell me how you get all the lines separating the quotes.
Ken
Each block of comments needs to be surrounded by [ quote ] and [ /quote ] (remove spaces), the "/" always signals an end of a block just like a closing bracket. You can check whether the formatting is correct by using the "preview" option. If you mind the correct nesting, everything will come out right:
[ quote ] [ quote ] -- your previous comment [ /quote ]
-- my answer to your comment [ /quote ]
-- your second reply to my answer
Philipp, Thanks for your help on the editing. I will try to use it next time. I will also be honest with you: I don't enjoy these type or exchanges as I am a poor typist (I use so many back space and deletes) and this takes to much time and sometimes I feel these can be too conceptual. I can see you have some unique talents and aspirations and that from our life experiences we approach things differently. We would probably be good team mates and compliment each other: but not at the same position!
Ken
PS I want to thank Flying Eagle for what he said and for how he said it. He said it in reference to my question and my situation and was a great encouragement to me.
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 03/16/2011 05:55:09
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/16/2011: 09:12:54
When players of Jim's caliber get shouted down by newbies with 6 months of experience that is a sad state of affairs. This forum will degenerate into discussions among people full of opinions, but with nothing to back it up. Maybe it already has.
Laurence
phb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 09:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
When players of Jim's caliber get shouted down by newbies with 6 months of experience that is a sad state of affairs.
Please tell me where I shout anybody down. You can do that by personal mail if you are afraid that this discussion will be littered even more. If you believe that voicing an opinion that disagrees with something that a better player says is an impertinence in itself, I couldn't care less. If you believe that a better player telling other (experienced!) players that his way is the only way is executing some kind of a right achieved by age and experience, well, why even bother. I detest that kind of attitude and I don't behave like that when I instruct people. It is a matter of respect to let yourself be questioned by even less experienced people and to not be prejudiced against what less experienced people say or do. Even more so if they are the subject of the discussion because the discussion is about learning and teaching.
Richard Dress - Posted - 03/16/2011: 09:37:35
Laurence: This forum will degenerate into discussions among people full of opinions, but with nothing to back it up. Maybe it already has.
-----------------
A lot of the thread has been about who should speak and who shouldn't. We are a self-regulating body (within Eric's boundaries) so we can put some order into the process if we try. The degeneration, as you say, is something we should try to avoid. I think most of us have watched a thread disintegrate into hot air and bickering.
There are some opinions that call for some kind of video or audio example. If data is missing we should ask for it. But it must be relevant. You can't ask a beginner to be a banjo player before he can give a personal opinion on learning, for example. Same with a piano player who wants to talk about timing. But if someone is talking about how you can string Scruggs licks together to make a melody, then there should be some multimedia material supporting the claims.
Most, not all, of us have the capability to sit at the computer and make a video of what we are talking about. Eric has provided us with unbelievable technology that gives us the chance to have a meaningful conversation. There are a lot of opinions, some are supported but most are unsupported and probably just hot air.
Let's start asking the right questions and I think the threads will shed a lot of the BS that LD so rightly pointed out.
Truth has no agenda, but BS does.
DGEBanjo - Posted - 03/16/2011: 09:47:09
WOW, I just listened to Jim's Music and as a newbie if I can get anywhere near that level of playing and if that means I am "copying" what someone else is playing to get that good, then guilty as charged. I can think of quite a few folks on this site I would love to copy and those same folk are the ones giving me the contructive feedback to keep me motivated. Ok now back to your normal programming... The sound off forum where there is ACTUAL MUSIC being played and discussed
you all have fun
phb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 10:08:51
quote:
Originally posted by Pickervergnugen
WOW, I just listened to Jim's Music and as a newbie if I can get anywhere near that level of playing and if that means I am "copying" what someone else is playing to get that good, then guilty as charged.
Just remember that it will take several decades to get there.
Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/16/2011: 10:20:57
Laurence and Dave,
Thanks for your kind comments on my playing. I'm honored and humbled. It really means a lot to me.
As for Philipps comments, I have no problem with what he's said. He certainly has the right to express his views on learning techniques and philpsophy... and he's free to critique my playing regardless of his experience as a player. Maybe he's got a point about my rendition of Shelton Special. It's a fast tune with a signature roll pattern as its hook, and it's hard to replicate precisely the feel that Allen Shelton got. That's why he's such a legendary player, and guys like me have been listening and studying his playing for so long. His comments have certainly motivated me to revisit the tune and see what I can do to improve my treatment of it. I still think I'm pretty close to the original, but I'm certainly subjective on the matter.
And perhaps I came off as more dogmatic in my original statements on this thread. My learning method is certainly not the only way to achieve your goals. But, I will say that I still think it's the best way. And if experience counts for anything, then my opinion, which I believe is shared by a lot of pretty good banjo players, should hold some credibility.
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Philipp, if my learning method is as inefficient as you say, and yours is better, then I expect you to progress at a dramatically faster rate than I have. In a few years you should be ready to teach me how to play Shelton Special properly. So, get to work, come back in few months/years/however long it takes and show us what you've got. Show me there's a better way; I'm reasonable, and I'll buy in if you can prove it.
JW
phb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 10:34:34
Jim,
your last comment makes me believe that I perhaps put too much into too few words of yours. Remember this is the internet and sometimes some sentence may trigger something or may be perceived in a much different way than intended. I imagine that we would get along well in real life and I sure could learn a lot from you to keep me busy for a few years. I'm not sure I will ever be able to achieve your level of playing. How could I before I actually tried? I'm determined to try, though. I am very content with the progress I'm making. Half a year ago I couldn't fret a chord or play a roll. Of course, progress is getting smaller the better you are so I can't just extrapolate the progress I have made so far to predict what level of playing I will achieve in what time. Right now I believe that I will have become a pretty good player in about five years. "Pretty good" does not mean that I could play Shelton's Special any better than you can.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 03/16/2011: 20:04:20
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
When players of Jim's caliber get shouted down by newbies with 6 months of experience that is a sad state of affairs. This forum will degenerate into discussions among people full of opinions, but with nothing to back it up. Maybe it already has.
Laurence
I think Laurence brings up a very valid point here. There are a few guys that are pro level players who come on the hangout. Most of us will only prosper when they take the time to share their knowledge and wisdom. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who these guys are. You can listen to their sound posts or look at their Bios. IF we don't have these guys here, it is like all us blind guys talking theory about what it is like to see as we try to figure out how to play.
Recently John Boulding and John Kuhn left this forum. They felt like they were attacked by people who (at their level) are considered non players - conceptualists who liked to argue. They were here because they love banjo and were trying to help. I even saw Ron Stewart get ripped by a guy. Gosh Ron is one of the best players out there today! You know that Kenny Ingram, Ron Block and Sonny Osborne watch the hangout and I bet they would contribute here...except for the hassle they feel they get. I talked to one pro and he told me a "Legend" told him: Why are you even bothering posting? They will argue and tell you that you don't know what you are talking about." These are guys that have lived it, studied it, and can do it - period. We are the losers when they are not here.
What I would ask is that if you deal with these people, be very considerate of them. Try to see things from their point of view first. That is the way you would do it if you were a student in a class and these guys are more expert at their field than most college professors. IMO that is a good way to learn. Then if you have a question, be respectful. And don't attack or be nasty. Also if we see somebody abusing these people: step in and help out.
Thanks for all the time and sharing that was given on this thread. I got a lot out of it.
Ken
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