roy.carpenter - Posted - 02/27/2011:  23:50:05

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I was going to post this in the clawhammer section but then both these guys blended rolls, strums, picking and bum-ditty, so I guess it goes here. Anyway, I've been listening to the Kingston Trio Capitol Years collection cds and I have to say that I appreciate John Stewart and Dave Guard more and more. I suppose it's because they weren't playing to play banjo, but to contribute to a group that played songs. As a result, their playing fits in more than stands out. There aren’t many historically amazing solos, there are even plenty of little slip-ups, but they still came up with a wonderful sound that’s all based on the banjo. I find myself skipping past all the non-banjo songs in the car cd player all the time. There were a whole bunch of horribly syrupy violin-background songs, but then there’s that marvellous twang of the tubaphone and it all takes off again. Anyone else feel the way I do?

uncledelphi - Posted - 02/28/2011:  03:56:33

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I feel the same as you do, but I would also add Jim Connor of the New Kingston Trio and George Grove of the current Kingston Trio. Dave, John, Jim, and George are the ones who inspired me to take up the banjo years ago. Without them, I would have never developed an interest in olde tyme and bluegrass.

roy.carpenter - Posted - 02/28/2011:  04:02:15

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I agree about Jim Connor. It's just that the period of establishing their sound was done in the 60s for me. Have you heard their version of Long Black Veil, which Johnny Cash did in one of his prison concerts? The banjo is basically bluegrass. Then you get This Little Light of Mine - almost all strumming. I guess it also shows the versatility of that Vega openback design.

mike gregory - Posted - 02/28/2011:  04:02:31

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It was Dave Guard's playing, far more than Earl's, that got me started on loving the sound of the banjo, back when I was about 15.
I wanted to develop a Multiple Personality Disorder, so that when I grew up, I could be The Kingston Trio!

And I once played MY banjo in a local charity fundraiser lineup which included George Grove.
Interesting guy to actually talk to, and lore da mitey, what a picker.

mike gregory - Posted - 02/28/2011:  04:04:39

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PS: I got about half a century older, but the "grow up!" part never really took hold!
=);{ )

beegee - Posted - 02/28/2011:  04:05:43

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yeh, The Kingston Trio was one of my favorite groups. I had Kingston Trio records before I ever had any Flatt & Scruggs. Kids at school were singing Tom Dooley, never any bluegrass.

R Buck - Posted - 02/28/2011:  06:24:26

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I read something by John Stewart where he said he never really could play banjo. Tom Dooley always sounded like tenor or plectrum banjo to me.

JonT - Posted - 02/28/2011:  06:56:38

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Yeah, I think Tom Dooley was Bob Shane playing his Vega plectrum.

As for Guard and Stewart, I really admired what Guard made of that group and continue to hold the view that it went steeply downhill - in musicality and in choice of material - after his unfortunate departure.

I saw 'em Iin concert several times with Stewart and with all the other pickers that have cycled through the ensemble. It seemed clear that Stewart did not play particularly well and that George Grove probably is the most accomplished player of the bunch. I guess the lore is that at one point, Glen Campbell filled in on the banjo parts for Stewart.

Had the opportunity to interview both Shane and Guard during my reporting career. Guard was charming, Shane came across as a jerk, trying to sell me his guitar, calling Guard all kinds of unkind names. Absolutely uncalled for.

The KT eventually became little more than a tribute band. And that's fine, if you're into that kind of thing. Saw them om their present form when they came through town a couple of years ago and it seemed clear, to me, at least, that the magic was long-gone, no matter how polished they remain.

This may not be everyone's view, and that's fine. But it's what I've perceived.

appleman11 - Posted - 02/28/2011:  06:56:51

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Bump Bump, Bah Diddle Daddle, Bump Bump Bah Diddle Daddle
Bump Bump, Bah Diddle Daddle, Bump Bump Bah Diddle Daddle
Bump Bump, Bah Diddle Daddle, Bump Bump Bah Diddle Daddle
Diddle Daddle Diddle

Let me tell bout a story of a man named Charlie on a tragic and fateful day.....

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Edited by - appleman11 on 02/28/2011 06:58:07

roy.carpenter - Posted - 02/28/2011:  06:57:53

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You're right about Tom Dooley - it's a 4 string on the Youtube video. This one is a perfect example of the kind of versatility I'm talkling about, alternating between picking and strumming:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ck0spbwj0Ow

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Edited by - roy.carpenter on 02/28/2011 06:59:00

coelhoe - Posted - 02/28/2011:  06:58:14

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You ought to include Bob Gibson in this banjo group as well. Gibson was playing in Chicago by 1953 and opened at The Gate of Horn in 1956.

roy.carpenter - Posted - 02/28/2011:  07:09:10

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Sorry to hear that Shane was so rude in your interview. ANd I readily conceed that they weren't the greatest musicians, but that's sort of my point: they seemed to get across well anyway. I was listening to a Kentucky Thunder track the other day, and they're great, but sometimes the banjo licks are so perfect that it almost lacks soul or something. I really like hearing a little buzzing when Stewart plays - it makes me feel like there's just a group of friends playing, not professionals who don't make mistakes.

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  08:14:26

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Dave Guard was a quick study with just about anything he attempted, and he became quite versatile with his banjo technique. I've heard people debate about his picking style(s) for decades, and the truth is, he combined a lot of different styles. It seems that he learned banjo tricks from just about all the masters of his time, starting with Seeger. Fans and pickers argue over whether he played bare-finger or used picks, how he did this or that, etc. But the bottom line is that Dave's playing was sure fun to listen to, and his contribution to the Kingston Trio was immense.

John Stewart wasn't as good as Dave was on the banjo, and as pointed out previously, neither could hold a candle to George Grove's skills on the banjo...or the guitar, for that matter. John's presence in the Trio was kind of like drinking coffee (or whiskey)...it was an acquired taste that takes some getting used to. In my case, once I got used to the idea that Dave was gone and John was in, there was no looking back. Stewart grew on me, and I eventually liked the Stewart Trio as much as (or maybe even a little more than) the Guard Trio. John's real contribution was his skill as a songwriter, and in that respect, his presence was felt even before Dave left. By the time Stewart died a couple of years ago, he had written well over 600 songs. The Trio only scratched the surface when it came to tapping his songwriting talent.

The Kingston Trio has gone through many iterations over the years. The present version of the Trio is pretty hard to beat when it comes down to talent and professionalism. George Grove's banjo and guitar playing are superb, and he's a very funny guy. Bill Zorn plays mostly guitar in the current lineup, but he is also a master banjo operator who is at least as talented as George. Rick Dougherty's soaring tenor voice is beyond compare - I once heard him sing an a capella version of Danny Boy and will swear to you that there wasn't a dry eye in the house. So the current Trio is packed with talent, and they put on an excellent show with lots of enerty, humor, and soul.

WB

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  08:24:34

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I meant "enerGy," but you knew that.

And I forgot to add that, although they do mostly the same songs as the old Trios did, the present Trio does have its own sound. They all have great respect for the Kingston Trio tradition, but there is no question that they don't "sound just like the Nick/Bob/Dave Trio." Maybe that's just as well...they are three very talented guys who deserve to be recognized as artists. "And they do it purty up-and-walkin' good!" as John Stewart might say if he were alive today.

WB

roy.carpenter - Posted - 02/28/2011:  09:22:08

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Thanks, WB. I can't find it anymore, but there was a great video on youtube of john stewart explaining "Gold" and regretting it profoundly.

vega long neck - Posted - 02/28/2011:  09:44:58

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A-men to just about all the above. Dave was eclectic, to say the least. He seemed willing to borrow/learn/imitate anyone or any sound he liked. More power to him. I understand it was his willingness to "go elsewhere" that contributed to his split. Bob was, and remains, a firm believer in "don't fix it if it ain't broke.". That included all songs and often even the stage patter between member, who ever they were... same lines, same joke at the exact same time. As John became more known and successful as a writer he had similar problems in the Trio; this he told me himself. A semi quote from John was that all of his songs were a work in progress, he was constantly revising. The Trio (with Bob) never did. The Trio reunion/commemorative at the Birchmere a few years back made that really evident, Bob was very annoyed when non-Trio songs or arrangements were played.
John pretty much abandoned the banjo after his Trio years as he became really much better on guitar.That quite evident when you listen to the few banjo pieces he did record; probably the worst (best?) example is his "The Dreaded Banjo Solo" on the relatively new Bite My Foot CD of a concert actually recorded sometime shortly after the much better know Phoenix Concert. However his note-for-note rendition of Seeger's Darlin Corey is pretty good even though it was much later in his career.
Newer iteration of the Trio were, and are, very good and really do have some great talent.

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  10:16:13

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"...all of his songs were a work in progress." 'Tis true. Having seen John Stewart (and Buffy) perform many times, I can tell you that every performance and every song was always a surprise.

Dave Batti, John's bass player for many years, will attest to this. Dave once quipped that, "John never plays the same song the same way once." John would even play the same song in a different key, depending upon how is voice felt/sounded on a given night. When discussing this with Dave one night, Dave commented that he always had to position himself on stage so that he could see John's fretboard, capo position, and hands. Then Dave (being the superb bass player that he is) would have to match his playing to whatever John was about to do. Sometimes even Dave got surprised, though, when John would use a tempo or "feeling" for a song that he had never used before.

Playing for John was like "flying by the seat of your pants," as the saying goes. There were few constants; almost everything was variable, and it all depended on John's feel, mood, and whimsy. Buffy will tell you about the Muses - John listened to them, even saw them. And sure they must have moved him to be completely free as he sang his songs.

WB

john bange - Posted - 02/28/2011:  10:42:49

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I think there were a lot of intro's to songs done with the plectrum...Tom Dooley, Worried Man...etc. I'm sure there are more but they sounded find to me. I think the 4 string was tuned d,g,b,e also Wasn't it John Stewart who said: "I'll let you hear my banjo ring, when I learn to play the thing". I think we never stop learning the instrument as we go.
All, who I have spoken to, who met or talked to the guys in the trio/trios have said the same thing...that they were good guys who seemed glad to discuss any song, instrument or subject.
Each member has brought a special magic to the music to ...I'll listen to it forever.

robbif - Posted - 02/28/2011:  11:36:47

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I too started with the KT before I was "converted".

All of you have been discussing comparisons of skill, technique, and justifiably so...not that I agree with everything.

I may have missed it in the discussions above, but in my humble opinion there is one bottom-line great skill they had with Guard or Stewart...they were great entertainers!

Also, in case you missed it, there's topic on how Folkies Helped Bluegrass with a lot of KT discussion: banjohangout.org/topic/200003

My photos ca. 1963 are at frobbi.org/slides/kingstontrio/

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Edited by - robbif on 02/28/2011 11:37:25

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  12:06:11

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Wow, excellent photos of the KT! Have you ever shown them to Bob Shane?

WB

robbif - Posted - 02/28/2011:  12:17:54

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WB,

I did post them recently on the KT Facebook page facebook.com/pages/The-Kingsto...897325863

I don't know of Bob will see them there. I may try to submit my link via on of the links at kingstontrio.com

Thanks.

john bange - Posted - 02/28/2011:  12:27:11

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I thought i read somewhere that John Stewart briefly played an RB180...anybody know?

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  13:00:15

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John Stewart did have an RB180 for a short time while he was with the KT, but I don't recall when or how long he used it.

And don't even ask about his guitars! He played many over his career, including a couple of custom-made ones. He had way too many guitars to keep track of over the years, including a few electrics (remember the white Les Paul?). John eventually settled mainly on Taylors, and he would experiment with strings, tunings, and sound effects (both live and whilst recording). At one point, he was using a Taylor 12-string, but with only 8 strings (E and B were pairs).

John Stewart was a fascinating guy. Somebody earlier mentioned that Dave Guard was eclectic. So was John, with just a wee touch of eccentricity as well.

WB

john bange - Posted - 02/28/2011:  13:17:06

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thanks, WB...this is a great topic...I saw a photo of John playing a 00 or 000 Martin slot head just like Dave's...as a Martin guy, I guess I have forgiven him going to Taylor...had a few temptations myself

wbheilmann - Posted - 02/28/2011:  13:31:41

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Yeah, I'm a mainly Martin guy as well, John, but also have a place in my heart for the old Westerly-made Guilds (especially the 12's). Taylors are OK, I guess. They handle exceptionally well, but I've never found one that suits my ear enough to make me want to buy it.

Now...to anybody that's reading this -- let's not stir the pot about Martin vs. Taylor vs. whatever. That old argument has been done to death.
8^)

WB

John Allison - Posted - 03/01/2011:  05:10:48

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The playing of both John Stewart and Dave Guard were the inspirations that sent me off on my banjo journey. One of the things that made them great was the fact that no one individual stood out, it was the trio as a whole that stood out. It should also be noted that John Stewart not only played the banjo but also did a lot of the arrangements that the group performed. I had the pleasure of seeing them play at the Cellar Door when I was in the service and again at a Freedom program about 10 years ago. Not the same group with only Shane being with the original. George Grove was the banjo player. Not the same group but the music hasn't changed.

wbheilmann - Posted - 03/01/2011:  09:03:04

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"The playing of both John Stewart and Dave Guard were the inspirations that sent me off on my banjo journey."

Apparently, we've taken similar journeys. The initial attraction to them may have been that their music was/is just plain fun and easy to learn. Many other groups imitated or were inspired by the KT. Back in the day, most of the folk acts had a long neck banjo operator. Whether or not he could actually play the thing was another matter, but they were all so obviously inspired by John, Dave, Pete Seeger, and Alex Hassilev. Alex once said in conversation that if it hadn't been for the KT blazing the trail, his Limeliters and a lot of other groups would have never been successful.

Kingston Trio trivia time: George Grove has been with the KT longer than any other member (present or past) except for Bob Shane. If my memory is correct, it's been well over 30 years.

WB

robbif - Posted - 03/01/2011:  09:12:31

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To this old folkie-converted-to-bluegrass, I don't know if I'm in the minority and I hope this doesn't upset anyone.

I've briefly heard the current Kingston Trio. I know they're good and I respect that...But to me they're just not...."The Kingston Trio".

john bange - Posted - 03/01/2011:  09:20:12

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Certainly, they have added their own "flair" to the music and stage presense and upped the level of musicianship but I am glad they are carrying on the trio's legacy.

Their CD's are great.

lonesomepicker - Posted - 03/01/2011:  13:54:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by john bange

I thought i read somewhere that John Stewart briefly played an RB180...anybody know?

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John can be seen with the Gibson on the cover of the album Number 16. He gave it up and went back to the Vega because he said it didn't cut as well as the Pete Seeger.

wbheilmann - Posted - 03/01/2011:  15:50:12

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Hey Rick, welcome to BHO.

WB (from the KT Place)

mainejohn - Posted - 03/01/2011:  16:49:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by lonesomepicker

quote:

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Originally posted by john bange

I thought i read somewhere that John Stewart briefly played an RB180...anybody know?

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John can be seen with the Gibson on the cover of the album Number 16. He gave it up and went back to the Vega because he said it didn't cut as well as the Pete Seeger.

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And here's the album:

Basic Strum - Posted - 03/02/2011:  13:42:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by roy.carpenter

I suppose it's because they weren't playing to play banjo, but to contribute to a group that played songs. As a result, their playing fits in more than stands out. Anyone else feel the way I do?

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Just to be up-front, I edited your post, which started this thread.

Yes, I feel the way you do, and you're hitting on a point that is often missed when Guard and Stewart's skills (and Tommy Makem's and Alex Hassilev's and others who played in a group vocal context) are discussed in a vacuum. But I also think you're apologizing for the overall quality of their playing, especially John's, which needs no apology. His banjo skills certainly resurfaced and proved themselves later in his career, with the frailing he did on the Darwin's Army and Seeger tribute CDs on Appleseed.

To address a couple of other points raised in this thread:

It was Bob Shane who sings "When I learn to play the thing," referring to his plectrum on "Coming From the Mountains." (But John Stewart did write the song.)

George Grove is a fine musician and a nice guy, but his guitar and banjo playing is very different from Guard and Stewart's. I don't particularly care for it, but I understand why bluegrass banjo players like his approach to banjo. Me, I'd hand the banjo to Bill Zorn and let him have at it. But that's what makes a horse race. Bill

wbheilmann - Posted - 03/02/2011:  16:11:35

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"George Grove is a fine musician and a nice guy, but his guitar and banjo playing is very different from Guard and Stewart's."

Good points, Bill. I do like (and am in awe of) George's playing, but at the same time, I can understand why his contribution to the KT might not appeal to everybody. His sound is definitely more "bluegrassy," and his techniques are truly impressive. However, I can see where a bluegrass style/sound might not appeal to one who would rather hear the more traditional sounds of the Dave/John Trios.

Now, Bill Zorn is in a league of his own in terms of skill and versatility. I've been privileged to see him really tear it up with a banjo. He's not only impressive, but a heckuva lot of fun to watch and listen to. Add to that the fact that he is a walking encyclopedia of world folk music, and you've got one outstanding performer. It's too bad that he doesn't get a chance to showcase his banjo skills whilst playing with the KT.

WB

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/02/2011:  22:21:21

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IK think John Stewart is great. I record The Daily Show - daily. Who's this Dave Gordo guy - someone on Colbert's show?

wbheilmann - Posted - 03/03/2011:  07:17:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

IK think John Stewart is great. I record The Daily Show - daily. Who's this Dave Gordo guy - someone on Colbert's show?

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Several years ago, we went to see John Stewart perform at the old Palms Playhouse in Davis, CA. When John, Buffy, and Dave Batti took the stage, this guy and his lady friend stood up and he said, "Hey, what IS this!?" They thought that they were going to see JON Stewart of the Daily Show. Somebody else explained to the guy that JOHN was not JON, but they ended up leaving in a huff...didn't even bother to check out the first couple of songs, which they MIGHT have liked.

The Palms is a very small venue, so John clearly heard what went on. He was quite amused, and joked about it all the way through the show.

WB

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 03/03/2011:  10:19:08

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I like both George Grove and Dave Guard quite a bit and both have influenced my playing style quite a bit. I've seen George Grove play a few times (with Nick and Bob) and I really liked what he did, plus I have his video.

What I think is the most impressive banjo playing on any KT album is the work on "Desert Pete" and I later found out that was done by Glenn Campbell on a 6 string banjitar. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I like the banjo part, but it seems like it really was not the KT.

wbheilmann - Posted - 03/03/2011:  10:35:34

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Glenn Campbell, being a studio musician back then, actually played guitar and 6-string banjo on several KT numbers. If my memory is working correctly, he also played on the Reverend Mr. Black, but I'm not positive about that. Does anybody know for sure? What other KT recordings did Glenn help with?

WB

robbif - Posted - 04/09/2011:  05:45:17

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I know this topic is mostly about the KTs banjo players, but I thought I'd mention that the late Nick Reynolds will be honored at the 2nd Annual Tenor Guitar Gathering June 3-5, 2011.

All the information is at flatpickerhangout.com/topic/21097

wbheilmann - Posted - 04/09/2011:  07:26:56

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Josh Reynolds (Nick's Son) is actually a key organizer of that event in Astoria, OR (near Portland):

tenorguitargathering.com

In recent years, Josh has also been a regular attendee and performer at the annual Kingston Trio Fantasy Camp in Scottsdale, AZ.  This year it will be at the Scottsdale Plaza Resort (as usual) on 10 - 13 August.

WB

robbif - Posted - 04/09/2011:  08:29:29

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Thanks WB. I'll repeat the link above that has all the information.

I see the new reply editor doesn't automatically make URL text a true link.

So, here it is again, clickable this time...

flatpickerhangout.com/topic/21097

Bronx banjo - Posted - 04/09/2011:  17:24:30

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The best Kingston Trio song ever; Bonnie Hielan' Laddie. Cue it up, crank up the bass and listen to Dave Wheat go to town.  Dave Guard's break is fabulous. It's the same philosophy as Cabin in Caroline: play the words. What made these gentlemen great was their abilty to show their genius in the context of a band situation. Music is a team sport.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 04/09/2011:  17:44:04

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I'm another KT junkie. It was their records, and Pete Seeger's, that made me want a banjo. I don't remember who played banjo on which records, but when I got my banjo, and Pete's book, I found it was way beyond me to play the sounds I heard. It was a good many years later that I learned about the plectrums, and Glen Campbel. I thought it was just my lack of ability!  That was a factor, too, but no way was I up to what they were doing. I like Bonnie Hielan Laddie a lot, too. Plus Coast Of California, and a bunch of others. My kids heard those old records growing up, among others. 

Paul