Dan Sparkman - Posted - 02/12/2011:  06:34:42

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banjohangout.org/archive/137359

I want to continue the Dave Guard thread, because I posted something on it that I want to correct.

I have decided that the Trio recorded this song in the key of A, not Bb. I think the 5th string is left as G, and a capo done on the second fret. I have worked with this song, and can never get it to sound exactly as Dave Guard performed it. I instead have used rolls with the intro, and I get it to sounding fairly good (IMHO) and steady. I sometimes wonder if Dave Guard meant to play it as he did, or if he improvises the intro sometimes, but I'm satisfied with the way I do it, which has drive to it and is close enough for government work.

I have a lot of respect for DG, but I also recognize that he was not a perfect person, either. He has an article on him in wikipedia, and if one reads through the sources there, the criticism of him will become evident. He should get NO credit for writing this song, as it is only a re-arrangement of the New Lost City Ramblers' rather close version of Charlie Poole's "Leaving Home", which itself was written by the Leighton Bros. and Ren Shields around 1912. Seeperfessorbill.com/pbmidi10.sht...andjohnny for the details, and a very good version of the lyrics, which have remained surprisingly close to the original for all the many versions of this song.
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By the way, there are those on the old thread who commented on the Kingston Trio's "Coast of California", which on their album "Going Places" is credited to Bowers/Guard. However, the melody to this comes from the Limeliters' "Battle of Gandessa", found on their first, eponomously titled first album for Elektra records, which came out one year earlier. This is not to take anything away from DG's brilliant banjo work on "Coast of California". The Limeliters credited this melody as being sung during the Spanish Civil War or perhaps earlier. Alex Hassilev plays banjo on the song, which is curious in itself, as Spanish music is not noted for using the instrument.

Scruggspeg - Posted - 02/12/2011:  08:04:13

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Two people inspired me to play the banjo when I was a teenager- one was Earl Scruggs and the other was Dave Guard. I sold my bicycle as a 15 year old to get an ODE long neck banjo. They were $98 back in the early 1960's. An absolute fortune for me. I wanted to be able to pick like Earl, but the songs that Dave Guard performed were sometimes more interesting. The Kingston Trio's "Coast of California" was one of theose songs that twisted your ear and I had to learn it. To this day, when I get out the revered ODE, that song still springs from my fingers. Just love it. Thanks for bringing this post up. It brings such great memories back to me.

phb - Posted - 02/12/2011:  08:25:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Sparkman

The Limeliters credited this melody as being sung during the Spanish Civil War or perhaps earlier. Alex Hassilev plays banjo on the song, which is curious in itself, as Spanish music is not noted for using the instrument.

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A lot of volunteers from different countries fought in the Spanish Civil War (among them Ernest Hemingway). Many of those volunteers would certainly bring some instruments with them, hence, there is no reason why a song from the Spanish Civil War should not have foreign instruments. In the 1930s the same communist songs were sung in many different languages and in the international brigades singing songs together would often be the only means of communication among the fellow combatants.

Another thing to consider is that the north of Spain belongs to the Celtic culture with bagpipes and all but admittedly I have never heard anything similar to a banjo in Spanish music.

vega long neck - Posted - 02/12/2011:  12:38:01

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Peter Curry has a nice book entitled "Pure Dave, An Analysis of Dave Guard's Banjo Playing" It first came out in 2002 from Five String Productions of Palmyra, NJ and should still be easy enough to find.
This is not a Master's Thesis but has interesting materiel that lets the reader sort of walk along with Dave's constantly evolving style and abilities. It has good (basic) Tab of many songs used as examples of a particular style.

Happy playing!

Dan Sparkman - Posted - 06/22/2011:  05:41:19

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@pbh   The banjo is the one instrument that can be credited as an American invention, though it evolved out of instruments found in western Africa brought to or made in North America by slaves brought from Africa. Go to:    myspace.com/banjoroots      where one can find out more about this, if you wish.  The Celts, Spanish, Irish, or otherwise, had nothing to do with this instrument until the early 20th century, when Irish musicians began to incorporate the banjo into their acoustic folk string musics.  Actually,  I have come across places on the internet where Mexican pickers are using the banjo for their music, no doubt influenced a lot by us, their northern neighbors but surely adding their own flavor and expanding the scope and range of our beloved banjo.  Dave Guard actually did a Mexican piece, "Farewell, Adelita" using the banjo quite effectively.  This song, by the way (though not the Dave Guard/Kingston Trio version) was used by the Mexican soccer team as its theme song in the 2002 World Cup.

It is possible, one has to admit, that banjos somehow found a place in the Spanish Civil War, but I think it is more likely that Alex Hassilev, perhaps in cooperation with fellow Limeliter Dr. Louis Gottlieb (who had a Ph.D. in musicology and arranged several Kingston Trio songs before forming the Limeliters), formulated a banjo arrangement for this piece.  Hassilev spoke several languages, and sung in many of them as a Limeliter.  His arrangement of this song is quite different from Dave Guard's, which was a virtuoso performance.  

@vegalongneck and scruggspeg:  I've heard about the book, and am very curious about it, though rather short of cash for it until now.  Some things DG does cannot be done with Scruggs picking, and I have actually flat picked some of those (i.e. "Blow Ye Winds", and working on the intro to "Buddy Get on Down the Line".  Do you hear some Andalusian modalities in "Coast of California"?  Dave Guard had a very good ear, and the other Kingstons would marvel at his ability "to learn anything in three days."

I enjoyed working out "You're Gonna Miss Me" by myself, though it is a hit and miss effort, but I think I have it pretty well now.  I always have inner conflicts about how slavishly I should copy my heroes.  One tries to replicate what one loves, but one also comes to a point where you just want to strike out on your own and come up with your own interpretations and ideas.

John Allison - Posted - 06/22/2011:  06:50:58

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Like Karl (Scruggspeg), Dave Guard was instrumental in inspiring me to play the banjo.  George Grove (today's K Trio) does a good imitation and explains some of Dave's techniques in his DVD "Banjo Arrangements of the Kingston Trio" sold by Homespun Tapes (homespun.com).

gDGBD - Posted - 06/22/2011:  11:46:02

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The tune containing the melody of "Coast of California" was recorded long before the Limelighters --  under the title "Si Mi Quieres Escribir" -- going back to the early 40's when Pete Seeger and the Almanac Singers did it.  See compvid101.blogspot.com/2010/0...t-of.html for a discussion.

Jim Moran - Posted - 06/25/2011:  08:51:50

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Thanks to gDGBD for linking to my article on compvid101.blogspot.com/2010/0...t-of.html - 

"Si Me Quieres Escribir/Coast Of California" - one of the points there is that the radical idea to use a banjo to accompany a Spanish song is Pete Seeger's, not Hassilev's or Guard's, and that Seeger's innovation cross-pollinated back to Spain: the article has contemporary Spanish recordings using what sounds to me like both plectrum and five string banjos. In addition, the blog has articles on two other songs mentioned in this thread - the "Frankie and Johnny"-based "Leaving Home" -  in which we see that perfesserbill's sense that the song is based on the 1899 case is not shared by folklore giants John A. Lomax and Carl Sandburg, and "La Adelita." Finally, greetings to my web friend Dan Sparkman, whom I have encountered on MySpace and the DG Wikipedia.

compvid101.blogspot.com/2011/0...lita.html      "Adelita"

compvid101.blogspot.com/2010/1...miss.html         "Leaving Home"

 

 

phb - Posted - 06/26/2011:  04:54:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Moran

Thanks to gDGBD for linking to my article on compvid101.blogspot.com/2010/0...t-of.html

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That's a very interesting article for sure and I share your opinion on trivialising such a song. I'd like to comment one thing on the translation of the lyrics from "Si me quieres escribir". You probably know this already. In the Spanish Civil War the republicans usually referred to the fascists as "moros" (moors). So the "moor Mohammed" is just a placeholder for the fascist troops (pretty obvious). There are two reasons for this: Franco, although being the head of the Spanish military, had been more or less exiled to the Canary Islands which geographically are part of Africa before the beginning of the Civil War and the republicans liked to refer to the "holy" reconquista which the catholic Spaniards fought for some centuries against the Arabs which had invaded Spain in the 8th century eventually driving the last Arabs out of Spain in 1492.

The reason why trivialising a song from the Spanish Civil War is perhaps even a less exciting idea than doing so with the "Marine Hymn" is that the dictatorship of Franco lasted until the Mid-70s and many Spanish people still remember that period that followed the Civil War. Until fairly recently there was no real public discussion of the Civil War because when the country finally became a democracy it seemed a better idea to look ahead rather than back. The graves of tens of thousands of republicans are still unknown while there used to be a monument for the fascist troops in almost any village in Spain. The first monument for the fallen republicans was erected in 2001. Many of the fascist politicians of the Franco era or their children are still active in today's politics. The whole topic of the Civil War is very emotional and there is a lot of heated debate about it. I guess that few people favouring the republican side would like the idea of making this a song about California.

 

Jim Moran - Posted - 06/26/2011:  11:33:47

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Thanks, PHB, for the thoughtful comment and perspective. The one point especially that I had not known previously was about the memorials to the fascist soldiers. I should have guessed; I remember Franco's reign and death well. I was going on instinct in writing the article - I knew the Spanish song to be a kind of sacred anthem - maybe "Battle Hymn of the Republic" would have been more apt. Thanks again!

phb - Posted - 06/26/2011:  13:31:07

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You are welcome! I lived in Spain for some time and was always amazed at the fact that there are still streets named after Franco and his most important followers. You can still see the signs of the fallange (fascist movement) in many places and many people will even consider that perfectly normal and justified. In fact the church where Franco is buried which was constructed by tens of thousands of republican slave-workers is still very popular for marriages. Coming from a country with a fascist past I found that very strange. I believe that the socialist gouvernment that is now in charge has changed a lot in that regard, though. The grandfather of the current prime minister fought for the republican side in the Civil War.

 

Chesapeake - Posted - 07/09/2011:  16:44:05

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Since Jim Moran introduced the subject of "Adelita," I can't resist posting my favorite version, which I believe comes close to the original spirit of the song. (Could use a little banjo though.)

youtube.com/watch?v=2OsSAcU_Vg...e=related 

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Edited by - Chesapeake on 07/09/2011 16:45:25

Jim Moran - Posted - 07/11/2011:  14:14:37

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Thanks to Chesapeake for the "Adelita" video - a great version that I will add to the blog article. A bit of banjo there would indeed be an enhancement!

Dan Sparkman - Posted - 07/25/2011:  06:23:35

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I want to say a hearty hello to my online friend, Jim Moran, with whom I have been carrying on an informative and friendly multiyear-long discussion about Dave Guard and "Frankie and Johnny/Leaving Home/You're Gonna Miss Me/ online across several websites now, with rather good results, I think. I didn't realize you were on here, but am certainly not surprised that you are.

As to what has been said about "Si Mi Queres Escribir" et al., I would agree with what has been posted here since my last comment. It is not at all difficult to believe that Dr. Lou Gottlieb would have picked up on Pete Seeger's work on this song, as they probably knew each other very well, having a very close political connection. The Limeliters used other material by Fred Hellerman, such as "Uncle Bennie's Celebration", co-written with Fran Minkoff, which itself is based on an older Klezmer tune. Pete Seeger was musically and politically active at the time of the Spanish Civil War, and could have learned the melody for from any number of sources who had fought in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade or in other units. I wonder just how far back the melody really goes.

We see in folk music a tradition of taking old melodies and fashioning new words to them, or partially forgetting the words and creating or even borrowing from other songs to fill in the gaps. All our folk music heroes seem to have done this; whether it is justifiable or not is debatable with even the earliest instances, and with recent instances is unpleasant. I think the Canadian who stole the Marine Corps Hymn melody might find violence on our side of the border if he tried to assert copyright rights to the melody. Woody Guthrie did a lot of this, transforming "Jesse James" into "Jesus Christ", for example. As I have said elsewhere "Trad., arr. by X" works fine with me. Maybe the copyright did run out on some songs, but attributing a melody to onesself when it comes from the public domain is egoism pure, and a form of meritless self-aggrandizement.

@phb: I guess the difference between Spain and Germany in this regard is that the Fallange were never defeated: "the winners write the history books." The Nazis were repressed severely after World War II, but the Fallange never had to go through this, and had support from a considerable portion of the Spanish people, which no doubt continued after Franco's death. We have much the same situation in the USA in the Southern parts of the country, where the Confederates lost the Civil War, but still had enough supporters left after the war to define who was a hero and who was not. One doesn't find any statutes of the winners' Generals there, nor of the losers' Generals in other parts of the country.

As to "You're Gonna Miss Me", I pretty well have it down solid now. I have found a way to even perform it without a capo, which I think Dave Guard does on the video with Pat Boone and the rest of the Trio which one can find on YouTube. It's rather innovative banjo picking, though, for sure. I agree with Jim Moran about how other writers have stated that the song goes back before the Leighton Bros., but proof of that is not to be found, but could well be. I was listening to it again today, and am amazed at how much chording is done in the Kingston Trio version. And I was trying to sing it and pick it at the same time.... :=)

Jim Yates - Posted - 07/25/2011:  07:03:41

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Dan said, "I think the Canadian who stole the Marine Corps Hymn melody might find violence on our side of the border if he tried to assert copyright rights to the melody."

Dan, what is the story behind this statement?  I'm not aware of any Canadian song that uses this tune.  Is it an obscure reference?

-from leatherneck.com:

In 1878, after several years of research to trace the origin of the tune of the hymn, Col. A.S. McLemore, USMC, told Walter F. Smith, second leader of the Marine Band, "..The tune is heard in the comic opera 'Genevieve de Barbant,' " by Jaques Offenbach. However, additional research during the same era indicated that the tune might have originated years earlier in a Spanish folk song.

phb - Posted - 07/25/2011:  09:52:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim Yates

Dan said, "I think the Canadian who stole the Marine Corps Hymn melody might find violence on our side of the border if he tried to assert copyright rights to the melody."

Dan, what is the story behind this statement?  I'm not aware of any Canadian song that uses this tune.  Is it an obscure reference?

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The statement refers to a story from the article linked above.

 

Jim Moran - Posted - 07/25/2011:  10:24:24

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Yes to phb and apologies to Jim Yates. When I wrote the article linked above on "Si Mi Quieres Escribir," I wanted to communicate the idea that turning that  Spanish Republican anthem into a pop folk song was in questionable taste, much as having a well-meaning Canadian do something similar to the "Marine Hymn" would be. I did not mean that anyone had actually done so. Perhaps an example based on reality would have served as well - how would John Phillip Sousa have felt has he lived to hear his grand march "Stars and Stripes Forever" turned into "Be kind to your web-footed friends/ For a duck may be somebody's mother"? I was suggesting that some songs should be respected for their provenance and pedigree and not necessarily trivialized into something different.

Still, I am interested to learn more about the connection between the "Marine Hymn" and Offenbach & the Spanish song. Once again, however, the original article is positing a theoretical example, not an actual incident.

compvid101.blogspot.com/2010/0...t-of.html