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NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 01:57:58
You know as a new banjo player I generally find the Hangout a good place to be. I even liked it enough to become a member of the Players Union at the end of last year. However my opinion of it has been soured somewhat over the last few weeks as i have become aware of the deletion of several James Harry's blog postings. One of them was deleted so quickly that i didn't even get chance to read it. I abhor censorship in all it's forms and to me is against the spirit of the internet. Just what gives you the right to censor another mans thoughts? Particularly as we are talking about a personal blog posting and not a Forum topic. There seems to be a puritanical streak running through the Hangout that doesn't sit well with me.
Nick
Edited by - NickC on 01/31/2011 02:07:21
desert rose - Posted - 01/31/2011: 02:09:17
Nick
Eric and his mods have the right to keep the tone civil here as they see fit just like you have the right to eject someone from your house who urinates on the living room floor
This place BELONGS to Eric, he thought it up, he built it and its not a democracy.
If you had been here long enough you would have seen some very dark days on the Hangout when Eric allowed people to do just as you demand. It didnt
work is an understatement
Scott
Edited by - desert rose on 01/31/2011 02:10:52
NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 02:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by desert rose
Nick
Eric and his mods have the right to keep the tone civil here as they see fit just like you have the right to eject someone from your house who urinates on the living room floor
This place BELONGS to Eric, he thought it up, he built it and its not a democracy.
If you had been here long enough you would have seen some very dark days on the Hangout when Eric allowed people to do just as you demand. It didnt
work is an understatement
Scott
I'm not 'Demanding' Scott. Just registering my disapproval.
kevin0461 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 02:26:20
If you feel so strongly about it... isn't a bit hypocritical to have posted a forum topic about your displeasure? Even more importantly, you have the freedom to do so and Eric and the mods have allowed you to do so. I doubt that you will have others join you by voicing your feelings in this public forum... I say good luck and God bless. This site is about banjos... and for the people that love them and want to join in with others that share the same views. If your feelings about banjos is stronger than your anti-censorship views then you'll stick around.
There are rules of civility at BHO you know... what did James Harry do to break those rules?
If you abhor censorship, I guess you an Julian Assange ought to get along quite well. People can be dangerous without censorship, whether it's political, personal or directed at innocent children. Without some censorship there would be anarchy.
Maybe BHO is not the place for you if you're an anarchist who doesn't share our love of banjos and the banjo community.
Once again best of luck to you and God bless!!!
NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 02:36:41
quote:
Originally posted by kevin0461
If you feel so strongly about it... isn't a bit hypocritical to have posted a forum topic about your displeasure? Even more importantly, you have the freedom to do so and Eric and the mods have allowed you to do so. I doubt that you will have others join you by voicing your feelings in this public forum... I say good luck and God bless. This site is about banjos... and for the people that love them and want to join in with others that share the same views. If your feelings about banjos is stronger than your anti-censorship views then you'll stick around.
There are rules of civility at BHO you know... what did James Harry do to break those rules?
If you abhor censorship, I guess you an Julian Assange ought to get along quite well. People can be dangerous without censorship, whether it's political, personal or directed at innocent children. Without some censorship there would be anarchy.
Maybe BHO is not the place for you if you're an anarchist who doesn't share our love of banjos and the banjo community.
Once again best of luck to you and God bless!!!
Never quite considered myself an Anarchist Kevin. If you care to look at my profile page and postings you will see that i am indeed here to learn the banjo!
kevin0461 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 02:45:22
quote:
Never quite considered myself an Anarchist Kevin. If you care to look at my profile page and postings you will see that i am indeed here to learn the banjo!
Enjoy BHO for what it is here for... whatever viewpoints James Harry had that were censored can be aired in a more appropriate forum.
Glad to have you as a fellow BHO member should you decide to stick around!!!
Edited by - kevin0461 on 01/31/2011 02:49:27
NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 03:06:05
quote:
Originally posted by kevin0461
quote:
Never quite considered myself an Anarchist Kevin. If you care to look at my profile page and postings you will see that i am indeed here to learn the banjo!
Enjoy BHO for what it is here for... whatever viewpoints James Harry had that were censored can be aired in a more appropriate forum.
Glad to have you as a fellow BHO member should you decide to stick around!!!
You make a good point Kevin. I'm here primarily for the Banjo (Like most people). It's just that it irks me somewhat that i'm unable to read the blog postings of somebody that I find interesting as they are taken down almost immediately after he posts them. As to the content of his blog.. i couldn't tell you. Perhaps somebody could let me know why James posts were immediately deleted? By the way i do intend to stick around.
Edited by - NickC on 01/31/2011 03:15:26
BobbyE - Posted - 01/31/2011: 03:11:05
Not every site is for everybody. If you have determined that the BHO is not a place for you after all maybe there is another place out there that is. Also perhaps you could establish a site to your liking and philosophies of how an internet site ought to be run. There are people who believe that the internet, since it is public, should not be censored and others who do not feel that way. I am of the latter. But at least we all have the freedom to make a choice as to which sites, forums, etc. we participate in.
I appreciate what Eric has done and continues to do for the banjo playing community. I joined the union recently and hope to be a member for years to come.
Bobby
dbrooks - Posted - 01/31/2011: 03:41:31
Nick, I note that you posted in the Improvement forum rather than the Web Site Problems forum and recognize that you have replied respectfully to those who criticized your remarks. So I believe that you are not simply ranting here, but "registering your disapproval" in a positive way.
When I recommend the Banjo Hangout to someone, I always add that one of its strengths is that it is well moderated. I am grateful that I don't have to wade through political or religious debate here. Or have to deal with ugly language and tone. I dislike censorship as well, but I don't consider this censorship. If BHO deleted posts about Banjo Newsletter or Old Time Herald because it viewed these magazines as competitors and threats, I might consider that to be censorship because it favored a single view or party line.
Even this discussion of censorship is appropriate and allowed since it is constructively focused on the policies of BHO and presented as a suggestion for improvement. If the debate got ugly or disrespectful, I would not complain if the posts were locked or deleted.
Thanks for your comments. Gald you're planning on hanging around.
David
Earls 5 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 03:53:45
Howdy Nick ! I and most folks understand your feelings. However, censorship is really something we all practice to some degree or another. For instance - if a person that you welcomed into your home for a meal with the family. Began to spew out his/her most vulgar opinions of something using very unapropiate language in the presence of your children.You would not allow it to continue in your home
would you? I would not. I personally can not stand writings on restroom walls, but some folk seem to really enjoy writing on them any way.
But in my home if someone were to write thier thoughts on my bathroom wall I would have to show them the exit! Point is this - sometimes
the display of certain opinions is dis-respectful or down right unacceptable. Alot of the time it's not" what" - but "where".
I hope my point is clear and that you remain a part of this banjo centered community.
Ansacsteve - Posted - 01/31/2011: 04:22:37
Is there a chance that we are forgetting why 95% of us are playing the banjo and are members of this site? I do it for fun and sometimes want to express my opinion on a topic. Now, my opinion maybe based on misinformation or ignorance but as its MY opinion it isnt wrong. Similar your opinion is not wrong because it is YOUR opinion. This would cause a problem in China but we are not there! Also, there really is no need to reply in an offensive manner; if i should make a statement that is not accurate I would welcome correction however a burning at the stake or crucifiction would be a bit extreme dont you agree?
must fret - Posted - 01/31/2011: 04:36:31
I don't know who James harry is, or what he said. But why not email the guy and find out that way rather than use the forum. The question doesn't seem to be about about censorship, it's about what's appropriate and where.
Earls 5 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 04:41:50
Agreed Ansacsteve !
NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 04:44:04
Hi David and Ron. Thanks for your comments. I did post it under Website improvements. And I do mean to register my disapproval in a positive way. I'm not in the habit of starting heated debates and realse I've put my head above the parapet with this but I wanted to register my opinion. Here's a thought... perhaps it would be a good policy to let people post first and let other folks make up their own mind if a post is offensive? This is similar to what happens with advertising in the UK. If an ad receives enough complaints it's taken down. Just a thought!
Edited by - NickC on 01/31/2011 04:45:19
Royalott - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:02:17
quote:
Originally posted by NickC
You know as a new banjo player I generally find the Hangout a good place to be. I even liked it enough to become a member of the Players Union at the end of last year. However my opinion of it has been soured somewhat over the last few weeks as i have become aware of the deletion of several James Harry's blog postings. One of them was deleted so quickly that i didn't even get chance to read it. I abhor censorship in all it's forms and to me is against the spirit of the internet. Just what gives you the right to censor another mans thoughts? Particularly as we are talking about a personal blog posting and not a Forum topic. There seems to be a puritanical streak running through the Hangout that doesn't sit well with me.
Nick
I too am a newbie to this site and like it so far. I have been a moderator on two forums for many years and Yes I have had to delete posts. I have deleted some of my own, in fact I have deleted more of my own than anyone else s. I make stupid post in anger of the moment.
One of the forums I monitor is a political forum :D I have never deleted anyone's because I did not agree with them but because the poster did not follow the simple rules. One is a political forum, as I said and a lot of leeway is given but there is some stuff we do not allow. I have deleted more that I agreed with personally than any other.
None of us have a RIGHT to post on these forums. It is a privilege and we have to abide by the rules. Now I have no idea what was deleted but the moderators have the right to make a judgment and we have the right to go somewhere else. I think the person leaving is the one that is going to lose.
Just my two cents. I am too new to know who owns this site but it seems to be a great site but the bottom line is, we are a guest
Royalott - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:05:40
" By the way i do intend to stick around."
Good to hear
Grey Dog - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:06:23
The Union dues go to Eric. (Not the mods)
I have problems with some of the mods, as most of us do. I loathe censorship.
But....I do not fault Eric and hurt his pockets by restricting the Union dues. I am glad he's here, and I realize that his appointed mods can't always agree with my views.
I will continue to pay my dues, and gripe when necessary. Isn't that the essence of life??
kb2dhg - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:19:41
If it were not for this site I would be still listining to Bluegrass not playing.(well learning) This site is one of the best formative and educational sites I ever attended. I cannot put a price on the value I got out of it and I am all for keeping it clean and a happy place to be! I lost interest in other hobbies just because of the site getting trashy and no longer fun to be a part of...
I need BHO and will always support it...
Sorry to hear your leaving but Hey this is for fun let's not get so serious.... Pickin and Grinnin is what it is all about!
airborne - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:22:54
let the mods do ther job, its not an easy job and they do it well, we need censorship and if the mods think there's something wrong with the post its there right to take it off. this is not speakers corner.
desert rose - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:30:30
Here's a thought... perhaps it would be a good policy to let people post first and let other folks make up their own mind if a post is offensive?
Like I said and Eric and the mods have STRESSED, this is NOT a democracy, dont live with that in your head, there are people here to do a job to make sure the rules setup are followed, NOT open to democratic vote at all ever.
Couldnt function if that were so, it would be mob rule and the owner would have no control in his own house
This kind of point was hashed out YEARS ago and the house rules
set out for all
Scott
must fret - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:38:09
Check out other social networks (outside of BHO) that are completely unrestricted and take a look at some of the blather - looks a lot like a Twitter stream. There are plenty that offer a totally open forum. If we do that, we lose our primary purpose (helping each other with banjo). Forums will become the gossip/opinion platform for the drama/trauma du jour and we'll fade away like others before us.
Each of us is always free to start our own chat site. No one's being censored.
And as far as taking a vote - don't we have better things to do with our lives?
Edited by - must fret on 01/31/2011 05:41:10
NickC - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:42:19
Well I've had my say. I'm somewhat enlightened as to the nature of Moderation/ownership of this site. And I thank you for that!
jazzylynne - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:48:03
As a matter of fact the blog was reported to a moderator.
I find it interesting that you are offended that it was taken down without knowing what was in it.
How many people must it offend before it's taken down?
Forrest - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:54:40
I saw the blog in question and with all due respect to James Harry, it was not appropriate for the BHO. I think the moderators did the right thing in removing it from his profile.
KE - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:44:41
It's not like the blogs are in the public eye. Why are people who don't want to read this guys blog so well informed about it? And then, why do they not want other people to read it? Curious, I am.
KE - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:47:58
And another thing -- this being a privately owned site for commercial purposes, the proprietor is free to set the rules and censor as he sees fit. The original poster is likewise free to withhold monetary support as he sees fit. What's the problem here? Seems perfectly fair to me.
pickNgrin - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:48:38
I didn't see the blog in question, but typically the things that get deleted are:
- political diatribe
- excessive religion/prosthelytizing (either for or against religion)
- x rated stuff, bad language
I hate censorship as much as the next guy, but the internet is a big place, and you don't have to look very far to find an abundance of all of the above.
You know what would be cool.... a site where people of all stripes come together, forget the outside world for a while, and just talk about banjos. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the banjo-world will live as one.
-matt
Edited by - pickNgrin on 01/31/2011 07:01:39
Pablo9364 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:51:40
I saw the blog in question as well.
OK it was edging towards being controversial but all very light hearted and I don't think it was intended to be taken too seriously. I left the group because some of the Jesus comments were not to my liking. But thats just a personal thing. Am I offended , will I lose sleep over the blogs ? well ?!?!? NO ! I dont care and prefer other resources on the hangout
Oh just lighten up ! ! ! !
To me the guy is Humorous and borderline. The moderators perhaps a little bit quick off the mark to cancel a blog because someone complained.
Voyageur - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:02:22
There are many internet sites where people post their responses to current events. I've visited some of them, and don't care to spend too much time there. It's more than just "blather" as must fret terms it, I'm sorry to say! When people are allowed free rein to express their thoughts on controversial issues under the cloak of anonymity offered by the internet, it is frightening to see how quickly things can degenerate. What ideally should be a reasoned debate on important issues soon becomes infected with the most horrible, vicious, filthy profanity and name-calling, death-wishes, and other examples of the worst of human nature.
I for one am glad that Eric provides the Banjo Hangout as a place where we can meet and share our thoughts on banjos as well as on other topics. And I am glad that he and the moderators work to keep the site civil.
If James Harry or anyone else wants to express his thoughts without restraint, he is free to start his own blog site and pay whatever costs are required to host the site. We are allowed to come here for free; as such we are guests and must respect the rules of our host. Membership in the Players' Union is a polite way to support the site, kind of like bringing a bottle of wine or a six-pack as a gift to your host when he invites you over for dinner.
Whelp, those are my thoughts. Hope everyone has a great day.
Mary G.
KE - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:12:26
Should there be a distinction between a public thread and someone's personal blog? -- just wondering about thoughts on that
Steven M - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo9364
I saw the blog in question as well.
OK it was edging towards being controversial but all very light hearted and I don't think it was intended to be taken too seriously. I left the group because some of the Jesus comments were not to my liking. But thats just a personal thing. Am I offended , will I lose sleep over the blogs ? well ?!?!? NO ! I dont care and prefer other resources on the hangout
Oh just lighten up ! ! ! !
To me the guy is Humorous and borderline. The moderators perhaps a little bit quick off the mark to cancel a blog because someone complained.
Now you have me interested.
Privately run site, seems to work fine to me. Democracy is overrated anyway!
Edited by - Steven M on 01/31/2011 07:18:41
frailin - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:18:57
quote:
Eric and his mods have the right to keep the tone civil here as they see fit just like you have the right to eject someone from your house who urinates on the living room floor
Scott
Love the analogy, Scott.
figmo59 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by jazzylynne
As a matter of fact the blog was reported to a moderator.
I find it interesting that you are offended that it was taken down without knowing what was in it.
How many people must it offend before it's taken down?
In a simpel answer....1
the mods have a (pita) duty.
the rules have been stream lined as much as they can be
to make them simpel as posible.
there is a little discression that the mods can use.
but i think they are really stuck between a rock...and a hard plece.
no matter what they do they potentananly P.O.....someone.
i also think that they are smart enough to figger out what a real complaint is.
i'm sure they have to deal with ....cronic cryers.
i don't know that, but i'm willing to bet that way.
so give 'em a break.
i've had stuff removed....no big deal.
just get over it and don't take it personaly.
Nymphadora - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:32:55
I saw one of the blogs in question....I know someone that reported it to the mods....that blog had no place on a banjo site. Yes, there IS an 'off topic' section... The blogs are not IN an 'off topic' section, they are on the members homepage where the curious can stumble over them. The blogs on BHO are not for lewdness or off colour ramblings. This includes anything that can be read by minors here on the site. (no offence, minors, you aren't missing much...) There are other sites for those kind of things. Some of this has generated hate private emails to members. My dearest friend is now questioning even remaining here because he simply stood up for common decency...I do hope he comes back...I miss him here. With all due respect to freedom of speech and thought, I'm glad BHO does not give anyone the right to "run what they brung"...there are other sites for that. For what it's worth, respectability and politeness should be paramount in a society. Sadly, it no longer seems that way...people screaming that they have the "right" to blurt out in public whatever thoughts fall short of their brain. I don't want to trip over off colour stuff, even accidently, on a private site geared MOSTLY to banjos. And I'm not prudish...I come from the Rock and Roll world. I'm glad that BHO tries to keep the dignity of this site. There ARE some ladies, gentlemen, and minors that use this site. Perhaps bloggers with 'blurt out anything' syndrome should be directed to Facebook.com and other sites of that ilk so they can blog to their hearts content, without any censorship of any sort. Odd...I've found that owning a banjo does not endow anyone with special rights and privlages on a private site. Hugs....
KE - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:43:52
Of course, someone might object to posting "hugs and bites" in your forum bio as being somehow too kinky.
schlange - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:47:13
The site rules apply to blog posts as well as forum topics (as well as groups, etc).
We don't generally address specific moderator action in the public forum (see rule #6 here: banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp), but in this case, I deleted the blog entry myself, and let James know it was due to an obvious violation of this rule: Posts which are political or religious in nature are generally prohibited, although non-argumentative posts are allowed at the moderators' discretion (ie, a "Please pray for so and so" topic is fine).
Thanks for keeping this discussion civil, everyone!
blamethebanjo - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:53:26
I have been locked out a couple of times and deserved to be. I knew what I was posting was against the rules but I just had to push it. I think most of us who are smart enough to use a computer know what the site deems as off limits. Like I did. I wanted to be a smart butt and I got what a smart butt gets. Kicked out. They didn't have to take me back but they did. If I cross the line again it will be a total accident. Believe me I don't want to get anywhere near that. I believe that some things should be said and done in the correct place. Eric and his mods have the right to decide what belongs here. I am glad.
Banjo - Posted - 01/31/2011: 08:19:01
BryanWB - Posted - 01/31/2011: 08:33:02
There seems to be a number of members leaving recently, their main reason, as far as I can see, is that they have experienced more than just rudeness in more than one BHO Forum. Nevertheless, there doesn't seem to be a moderator stepping in to smooth things over with these disappearing members, or to calm those who can't resist being objectionable.
I haven't experienced problems such as this, but do read a lot of blogs and posts in here.
Yes, the site does belong to Eric, and it must be a really tough job to keep it going - thanks to him, this is the only place to come if you're really interested in banjo playing, and not finding amusement in making hurtful remarks (as has been complained about) to other members.
Richard Dress - Posted - 01/31/2011: 08:35:45
As has been pointed out the HO is private property. Censorship is only something a government can do. Eric is just managing his product.
Censorship is coming to the internet, however. That is worth worrying about.
Forrest - Posted - 01/31/2011: 08:48:50
Great point Richard!
joemac - Posted - 01/31/2011: 09:08:36
Oh Lawd not again. time after time someone mounts a crusade on this site as if its a God given right and then walks away with their ball. Getting in from a hard days work to relaxing on the hangout to learn about my instrument is what its all about. Isnt that why we are all here??? Do you know how boring it is for us who enjoy this site to continually read about these pointless issues.......man it does your head in.
Steven M - Posted - 01/31/2011: 10:41:51
quote:
Originally posted by joemac
Oh Lawd not again. time after time someone mounts a crusade on this site as if its a God given right and then walks away with their ball. Getting in from a hard days work to relaxing on the hangout to learn about my instrument is what its all about. Isnt that why we are all here??? Do you know how boring it is for us who enjoy this site to continually read about these pointless issues.......man it does your head in.
Don't read it then. Click to the next topic!
No one is forcing you to read any thread in particular.
Dip in, dip out and enjoy!
EnglishWolf - Posted - 01/31/2011: 12:19:11
Along with banjos I am also interested in motorcycles. I find myself dropping off various biker DLs and forums due to members attacking and demeaning the views of others. Often I wonder/expect that those attacks are made by people who wouldn't have the balls to say such offensive things to a person's face if they couldn't hide behind the distance and anonymity of the internet.
My point is that I cherish this excellent hangout site. I've been able to ask some noob questions and been kindly given some great information from people who really do know about the subject. This has always been done in a friendly and courteous manner. So please, let’s not descend into the troll infested, political rhetoric, spam riddled quagmire that so many other sites and forums are plagued by. If it takes a little moderation by Eric to keep that from happening then all I can say is “Good job Sir!”
To those that want something a little different then please do feel free to buy a domain, pay for the hosting, and set up your own site. The internet’s a big place – there’s in it room for everyone.
Edited by - EnglishWolf on 01/31/2011 12:23:32
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/31/2011: 12:44:58
quote:
Originally posted by EnglishWolf
Along with banjos I am also interested in motorcycles. I find myself dropping off various biker DLs and forums due to members attacking and demeaning the views of others. Often I wonder/expect that those attacks are made by people who wouldn't have the balls to say such offensive things to a person's face if they couldn't hide behind the distance and anonymity of the internet.
My point is that I cherish this excellent hangout site. I've been able to ask some noob questions and been kindly given some great information from people who really do know about the subject. This has always been done in a friendly and courteous manner. So please, let’s not descend into the troll infested, political rhetoric, spam riddled quagmire that so many other sites and forums are plagued by. If it takes a little moderation by Eric to keep that from happening then all I can say is “Good job Sir!”
To those that want something a little different then please do feel free to buy a domain, pay for the hosting, and set up your own site. The internet’s a big place – there’s in it room for everyone.
Can I frame this reply?
Pablo9364 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 12:52:27
"Posts which are political or religious in nature are generally prohibited"
Sorry Eric. I had no idea this was a forum rule
Nymphadora - Posted - 01/31/2011: 13:56:39
EnglishWolf, I fully agree. I made the mistake of going on eBay's forum, hoping to help someone, and all three responses were mean, rude, and stupid. And if these women had been face to face I doubt that would have happened...I'm 6ft tall. People always treat me nicely face to face, and I'm polite to them. So I assume that, like EnglishWolf said, people like to start nasty trouble, insults, etc, in a situation of "You can't touch me....!! HaHaHaaaaa" They really enjoy arguing and fighting online because no one can clock them. Kindergarden stuff, making faces thru the car window. Just the other day, a smiling teenage girl flipped me off thru the open back window of the pickup as soon as her driver father looked away. I have NO idea what THAT was about! A sign of the times, I guess. Hugs.....
John Estep - Posted - 01/31/2011: 16:05:31
I'm here to talk about playing the banjo and with luck I hope to meet some good people and share ideas .....
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