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Dave Magram - Posted - 01/29/2011: 18:11:04
Want to learn the hidden pattern of chord progressions that expert banjo-players use everyday?
I have noticed a number of posters apparently confused about chord progressions and not recognizing the hidden pattern.
This is how I used to teach my banjo students this "secret to success"...
Are you still thinking of chord progressions as “C, F, G” or “G, C, D” or “E, A, B” etc. and not recognizing the hidden pattern the way the expert players do?
You can learn this "secret" in just a few minutes.
The Hidden Pattern of Chord Progressions:
Music is based on mathematical relationships. Don’t worry—algebra is not required!
Chord progressions are very simple. It is as easy as “1, 4, 5”.
In the key of C, the most common chords in bluegrass are “C, F, G”.
In the key of G, the most common chords in bluegrass are “G, C, D”
What is the hidden pattern here?
Let’s start with the key of C.
The notes of the C major scale are: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.
QUIZ: If C is 1, what number is F?
ANSWER: Count up from C. F is the 4th note in the scale.
QUIZ: If C is 1, what number is G?
ANSWER: Count up from C. G is the 5th note in the scale.
So C, F, G is a "I, IV, V"chord progression.
(Roman numerals are used to represent chords in proper music theory.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Now let’s tackle the key of G.
The notes of the G major scale are: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G.
QUIZ: If G is 1, what number is C?
ANSWER: Count up from G. C is the _?_ note in the scale.
QUIZ: If G is 1, what number is D?
ANSWER: Count up from G. D is the _?_ note in the scale.
So G, C, D is also a I, IV, V chord progression.
------------------------------------------------------------
TEST YOURSELF:
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of D? __, __, __
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of A? __, __, __
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of E? __, __, __
Post your answers to the test above.
I’ll provide the correct answers tomorrow—along with a handy-dandy system used by expert players in recording studios and most bands to communicate and remember chord progressions.
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/29/2011 18:16:32
Kstevensmd - Posted - 01/29/2011: 18:38:33
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of D? _D_, _G_, _A_
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of A? _A_, _D_, _E_
What are the I, IV, V chords in the key of E? _E_, _A_, _B_
Knowing the piano keyboard is a real help in visualizing the intervals; a visual reference for me is very helpful.
manomusic - Posted - 01/29/2011: 18:44:34
DGA
ADE
EAB
Thanks Dave
need all the help I can get when it comes to music theory!!
mjp3251 - Posted - 01/29/2011: 19:10:51
You are all referring to the chromatic scale. It is worth while to memorize it and the nice thing is it applies to all instruments. If you Google "chromatic scale" there are many good visual representations that are very helpful. I just remember that there are no half-steps between B & C and E & F, but having it drawn out is very helpful.
Dave Magram - Posted - 01/29/2011: 19:36:17
Wow, you guys are good!
Okay, here’s a cool trick to communicate chord progressions…
The system that studio musicians and expert players use to write down chord changes and to communicate with others in the band is called the “Nashville Number System”.
I’d suggest learning the Nashville Numbering System to think of chord changes, instead of using the letter names.
The NNS allows you to recognize chord patterns, and it is what most bluegrass and country bands that I have been in use to communicate on stage when they are tackling a song that not everyone knows.
Using the Nashville Numbering System makes it very easy to change keys to match the vocalist without having to rewrite the chord charts.
How it works:
The Nashville Numbering System replaces letter names with numbers: instead of C, F, G, NNS would use 1, 4, 5 (technically this would be I, IV, V—but Roman numerals are too hard to read in the studio).
Here’s the NNS chart for This Land is Your Land/Little Darling Pal of Mine:
1441
1551
1441
5551
There are 16 measures in this song, and each number represents one measure, because this song only has one chord per measure. If there are two chords in a particular measure, it is shown with a slash: “1/4”.
- Minors are usually shown with a “m”. For example “6m” means “VI minor”.
Really Cool trick:
In Nashville studios, they read these numbers off in groups as a sort of shorthand.
For example, if the last line in is 5551, this would be read as “55-51” (fifty-five, fifty one).
So on the bandstand, I might say to the band, “Okay I’ll kick it off with a 55-51 intro.”
This shorthand also makes it easier to remember the entire song.
Here’s This Land is Your Land/Little Darling Pal of Mine in NNS shorthand:
14-41
15-51
14-41
55-51
If you memorize the chord patterns this way, it makes it easier to keep these in mind while thinking of all of the other stuff, like melody, timing, dynamics, and if that cute member of the opposite sex in the third row likes banjo-players. 
Note to mjp3251:
Actually the 7-tone scale for C or G, etc. is called the “diatonic scale”.
The “chromatic scale” is all 12 tones of Western music that the 12 diatonic scales are derived from.
(I get these two names mixed up sometimes, too. Just remember that a "chromatic" harmonica can play any key, but a "C-harp" has just the notes for the (diatonic) C-scale.)
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/29/2011 19:46:29
John42 - Posted - 01/29/2011: 20:18:41
Interesting but confusing. Instead of telling the banjo player to kick it off with a xx-yy intro, I just tell him/her "Key of A, Blueridge Cabin Home, hit it!". It works great.
schlange - Posted - 01/29/2011: 21:37:38
Good stuff, Dave. Learning what you've communicated above is what unlocked music for me about... 13 years ago.
What some consider the "key" won't work for others, as John42 exemplifies. But for me, the whole I-IV-V, diatonic scale ball of wax worked.
Dave Magram - Posted - 01/30/2011: 02:53:17
Hi Eric (Schlange),
Thanks for your kind words.
When I learned this stuff years ago, it was like a huge light-bulb lighting up.
All of a sudden I realized that I didn’t have to learn the names of the I, IV, V, VI, II, III, etc. chords in all 12 keys!
All I had to do was learn the I, IV, V, etc. pattern in three positions on the fingerboard, and I could play the correct chord every time in any key without even knowing the name of the chord.
It made life so much simpler!
==========================================
quote:
Originally posted by John42
Interesting but confusing. Instead of telling the banjo player to kick it off with a xx-yy intro, I just tell him/her "Key of A, Blueridge Cabin Home, hit it!". It works great.
Hi John42,
It’s great if you don’t need this stuff. However from reading some of the posts I’ve seen just in the past few weeks, there seem to be a number of other people who may benefit from it.
A few points to consider:
1) You picked out one minor example—how to call an intro—to pooh-pooh.
If your band only plays standard bluegrass songs like ‘Blue Ridge Cabin Home’ that everyone in the band already knows, then intros should be no problem, like you said.
However, some of us play in bands that are not limited to only standard bluegrass songs.
If the lead vocalist says “I just got a request for an old Mac Wiseman song, ‘Wildflower of the Mountain’. There’s $20 in it for us if we can do it. It’s a little tricky, so just play the last line as a banjo intro.”
You say “How does it go?”, and the vocalist sings the last line off-mic, and says “It’s a 62-51 turnaround”.
You play it, and the band gets a $20 tip!
You are a Banjo Hero.
This sort of thing happens in real life (although my band will do requests for $5, cause we’re a cheap date).
BTW, don’t bother looking for the chords for ‘Wildflower of the Mountain’—I just made it up.
2) A more important value of the Nashville Number System in a performance situation is that it if you have learned to think of the chord progression as a number pattern, it becomes much easier to transpose a song to a new key.
Let’s use your example ‘Blue Ridge Cabin Home’ again. It is normally sung in in G, A or Bb by a male singer. But what if you have a female vocalist who calls for ‘Blue Ridge Cabin Home’ in the key of D? (And this really happened to me, as recently as today, with that very song.)
If you have to go back to thinking letter names in the key of A (A, D, E) and find their equivalent in the key of D (D, G, A), it is going to take you at least a minute to figure out. Meanwhile the female vocalist is glaring at you like you are a dolt.
OTH, if you have learned the three repeating POSITIONS of all of the I, IV, V chords, you can launch into ‘Blue Ridge Cabin Home’ in the key of D with a reasonable hope that you will get through the intro without too many stumbles.
Once again, you are a Banjo Hero.
Again, John42, perhaps you know all of this stuff already.
But I’ll bet there are many banjo newbies that do not.
Best,
-Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/30/2011 03:00:23
Ken_in_IN - Posted - 01/30/2011: 04:49:53
Good stuff Dave,
I knew about the chord progressions but have been confused on the Nashville system. Your post sheds a little more light on this old brain!
Ken
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/30/2011: 08:12:42
Dave,
Great posts and wonderfully written: clear and to the point. It must have taken a lot of time to do that. These posts could make a chapter in a book.
I have heard many people refer to this system and talk this way. What a great way to reduce things to a common denominator. Guess that's why they came up with the system. 
Thanks,
Ken
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/30/2011: 08:32:38
An alternative for easy transposing to knowing the numbers is playing by position.
Using closed chord forms (4-finger chord) and paying attention to the pattern means you can move the pattern of chords to play in a different key without ever numbering the chords or naming them.
It's a useful shortcut and is usually where I start teaching the numbering system, playing G,C,D as
5435, 5555, and 4234 and having the student do g,c,g,d to lock it in, then moving up to play in A (2 frets higher) or Bb (3 frets higher).
Then I tell 'em it's exactly the same as the Nashville numbering, just applied with fingers without doing the numbers.
coelhoe - Posted - 01/30/2011: 08:33:02
Actually, there is an excellent book called "The Nashville Number System" available from Steel Guitar Nashville, written by guys who use this everyday. Dave's presentation above is pretty clear, but as you might expect there is a bit more to it.
The system was originally started for the Jordanaires, the male gospel quartet who did studio and stage back-up for years, including for Elvis.
Disclaimer: I have no connection to author or the seller, other than playing steel guitatr.
steelguitar.net/
audiowallpaper - Posted - 01/30/2011: 08:43:34
I think it also is worth mentioning that when writing out these scales, you take a half-step between the 3-4 chord and 7-8. I just spent 15 mins looking at the answers to these chord questions wondering why i was getting for D scale: D, G#, A# ;)
Edited by - audiowallpaper on 01/30/2011 08:44:38
Dave Magram - Posted - 01/30/2011: 09:38:55
quote:
Originally posted by audiowallpaper
I think it also is worth mentioning that when writing out these scales, you take a half-step between the 3-4 chord and 7-8. I just spent 15 mins looking at the answers to these chord questions wondering why i was getting for D scale: D, G#, A# ;)
Hi audiowallpaper,
Good work! Thanks for sharing that info.
You are exactly correct, and best of all, it sounds like you figured it out for yourself—which means you will probably never forget it!
You don’t need much music theory to play bluegrass, but this is essential.
For anyone else that doesn’t quite get what audiowallpaper is talking about—the scale for each key (such as C) is called the “diatonic scale”.
The diatonic scale is based on the 12-tone "chromatic scale" that all Western music is based upon.
The diatonic scale is the do-re-mi scale that you may have learned in elementary school. It has seven notes separated by either whole steps or half steps.
The two half-steps are exactly where audiowallpaper described them—between notes 3-4 and 7-8.
This is most easily seen in the key of C.
I’ve used “_” to represent a whole step, and a “-“ to represent the two half-steps in the example below:
C_D_E-F_G_A_B-CNotice that a whole step between two notes means that a note is skipped. For example, between C_D the C# note is skipped.
Quiz #1:
What note is skipped between F_G?
What note is skipped between G_A?
What note is skipped between A_B?
Quiz #2:
If you’re still not sure you get it, try this little quiz by completing the diatonic scale for these other keys:
EXAMPLE: C_D_E-F_G_A_B-C
G_A_B-
D_
A_
E_
Of course the diatonic scale applies exactly the same way to both the notes and the chords in each key.
For more info on the diatonic scale, check Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scaleQuiz #3:
Your next jam session or band rehearsal.
This the real-world application of this music theory discussion.
You are using the diatonic scale every time you play, so why not understand it?
Good picking,
Dave
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/30/2011: 09:45:08
I tell folks the chromatic scale is the -only- thing that needs to be memorized if they want to dive into theory.
Everything else can be figured out from music or from fingering the banjo neck.
But memorizing the chromatic scale is like learning the alphabet.
And like reading music, most folks know it already, they just don't know they know it.
bellflower - Posted - 01/30/2011: 14:19:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Here’s the NNS chart for This Land is Your Land/Little Darling Pal of Mine:
1441
1551
1441
5551
There are 16 measures in this song, and each number represents one measure, because this song only has one chord per measure.
- Dave
Thanks for posting this.
But, oh, dear. I thought I understood Nashville notation, but it feels like the first couple of notes are just a pick up, and I would have thought the patterns sound like this:
Little Darlin' Pal of Mine
4411
5511
4411
1511
This Land is Your Land
4411
5511
4411
5511
What am I missing?
Sandy
ellijay - Posted - 01/30/2011: 15:04:44
This should be a "Sticky".
mebacon - Posted - 01/30/2011: 15:45:06
Dave,
Does each number always represent one measure and what happens when you have a split measure?
Marty
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/30/2011: 16:26:50
Just do the number of beats for each measure which is usually 4.
When the chord changes, change.
Sometimes at jams, I'll just count because I don't have the words or melody clear.
G 2 3 4
C 2 Am 2
G 2 3 4
D 2 G 2
The only way I got Rebecca is when folks just said to count three beats for every IV chord (C in G) in the song except the first.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/30/2011: 16:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by bellflower
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
Here’s the NNS chart for This Land is Your Land/Little Darling Pal of Mine:
1441
1551
1441
5551
There are 16 measures in this song, and each number represents one measure, because this song only has one chord per measure.
- Dave
Thanks for posting this.
But, oh, dear. I thought I understood Nashville notation, but it feels like the first couple of notes are just a pick up, and I would have thought the patterns sound like this:
Little Darlin' Pal of Mine
4411
5511
4411
1511
This Land is Your Land
4411
5511
4411
5511
What am I missing?
Sandy
Nothing. You're correct, Sandy.
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 01/30/2011 16:49:12
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/30/2011: 16:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by mebacon
Dave,
Does each number always represent one measure and what happens when you have a split measure?
Marty
I usually put the two chords in parentheses, e.g., 1 (1 4) 1 1, for a measure of 1, a measure split evenly between 1 and 4, and then two measures of 1.
bellflower - Posted - 01/30/2011: 17:03:28
Thanks, Ira! got it ---
Sandy
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/30/2011: 17:13:51
When I'm typing them out, I sometimes use the vertical slash | to represent bars. One number between bars means it's the only chord for that measure. Two numbers means a split. Sometimes I'll get really literal: if a song is in 4, then I'll write the chord number (or letter) 4 times; if a split, I'll write each one the number of times (counts) required. This covers most situations.
I realize it's not the way it's done. But it works. And every musician familiar with NSS (or who can count to 4) can follow it.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/30/2011: 17:28:02
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
I use slashes for beats and just show the chord name when it changes.
That, too.
steve davis - Posted - 01/30/2011: 17:31:06
Once you understand how the chord patterns are arranged on the neck for the key
of G,you understand how the chords are arranged for all keys.
blamethebanjo - Posted - 01/30/2011: 22:17:36
Well, I guess I am stupid because none of this registers for me. I don't get it at all.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/31/2011: 04:46:47
quote:
Originally posted by blamethebanjo
Well, I guess I am stupid because none of this registers for me. I don't get it at all.
I certainly can't explain it as well as Dave Magram but I will try to give you my take.Basically this is a way of communicating what chords will be played for a song. Instead of calling the actual chord names this system gives chords numbers with the base chord (the chord of the key the song is in) being the 1 chord. then counting up the scale (if G=1 then A=2) it gives a number to the other chords used.
For example: If you had your capo at 5 or C then that would be the 1 chord. If you know the relative chord positions then you know where you need to go to get the chord that is say 4th chord up the list (f for the key of c) and the 5th chord up the list (G in the key of C).
I hope I haven't confused you more.
Ken
blamethebanjo - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:46:48
No sir, I thank you because I got it that time. I was trying to make it a lot harder than it was. Like always. The other examples were great too I just didn't get it.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/31/2011: 07:23:28
Brother we both lucked out then, because often it is a lot easier for me to think it than to write it.
Ken
Dave Magram - Posted - 01/31/2011: 14:46:31
quote:
Originally posted by bellflower
Thanks for posting this.
But, oh, dear. I thought I understood Nashville notation, but it feels like the first couple of notes are just a pick up, and I would have thought the patterns sound like this:
This Land is Your Land
4411
5511
4411
5511
What am I missing?
Sandy
Hi Sandy,
Good point. My version was a bit imprecise because I was trying to demonstrate something else.
(In hindsight, I suppose I should have chosen a different song for an example.)
However this brings up an answer to a question that someone else asked, so here is my take on it...
First, the first three notes of This Land are NOT “just a pick up”-- they are the first three words of every chorus (and verse): “This land is..”.
These three notes are in the I chord, so calling the 1st measure
44 11 would not be correct.
Since the first measure starts on a I chord, and then goes to the IV chord--it is a "split measure".
To show a split measure in the NNS, most players would write a slash: “1/4”.
So the first line of This Land would read like this:
1/4 4 1 1
I would urge people not to over-think the written version of the Nashville Number System-- it is just a way to scribble down an informal chord chart.
And there is no One Right Way to do it...
Some people show a VI minor as “6m”, some show it as “6-“.
Some people show a major seventh as “1M7”, some people write a “1” with a triangle after it.
It's very much an individual thing--as long as YOU can read your own NNS chart.
But the Nashville Number System is not The Important Point—it is just one practical example of the value of using chord-numbers rather than letters.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here’s The Important Point…
Playing music requires multi-track thinking.
To play a solo well you need to be thinking of:
1. Melody
2 Chord progression
3. Timing
4. Accents
5. Rhythm
6. Band arrangements (if any), such as stops
7. Are you and the rest of the band all playing the same chords, or did someone get off track?
8. Melodic variations
9. Putting emotion into your playing
10. Dynamics (Yes, even banjos can have dynamics.)
11. Etc.
I can’t speak for other players, but I personally find it much easier to track the chord- numbers for chords instead of the chord-letters.
I believe that most good musicians do the same.
Example: Quick-- what’s the letter name of the VI minor chord in the key of Eb? If you took more than a half-second to come up with it, you’ve already missed the chord change!
But by using chord-numbers, I can find the VI minor chord in the three different constellation of chord positions in a split-second regardless of the key.
It doesn't matter if I know the name of the chord or not.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benefits of thinking of numbers instead of letters for chord progressions:1) You will begin to recognize patterns of chord progressions much more easily, and realize that in bluegrass there are not very many different chord patterns (unlike pop or jazz)
2) You will be able to transpose to a different key much more easily to accommodate a female vocalist, for example.
3) You do not have to memorize what the letter name of the IV chord (or the VI minor, etc.) is in Eb or Ab, etc.
4) You can communicate like a pro with other players in jam sessions and on stage: “It’s a 62-51 intro over the last line of the verse.”
5) It is easier to keep track of chord numbers in your head when you are playing a solo or backup than chord letters.
6) You can communicate to everyone in the band, regardless of whether or not they have a capo!
7) You can put a simplified NNS chart on your set-list for songs that have unusual chord progressions.
One of the bands I am in has a lead vocalist who has written some very nice songs, but they are not standard bluegrass chords, so we put a condensed NNS chart right on our setlists.
Homework suggestion:
- Either by ear or from a book, write out simple Nashville Numbering Charts for at least 20 bluegrass songs that you know.
- Now compare the charts. How many charts are exactly the same?
- For every new song that you learn, write out a simple Nashville Numbering Chart, and try to memorize it so that you can think of it as you play the song.
I hope that this has been helpful to you.
- Dave
Edited by - Dave Magram on 01/31/2011 15:00:21
Rich Weill - Posted - 01/31/2011: 15:08:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
First, the first three notes of This Land are NOT “just a pick up”-- they are the first three words of every chorus (and verse): “This land is..”.
These three notes are in the I chord, so calling the 1st measure
44 11 would not be correct.
Since the first measure starts on a I chord, and then goes to the IV chord--it is a "split measure".
To show a split measure in the NNS, most players would write a slash: “1/4”.
So the first line of This Land would read like this:
1/4 4 1 1
The notes for the initial "This land is ..." are pickup notes which proceed the IV chord. The IV chord is not part of a "split measure," as a new measure starts on the downbeat of "your ... ." When those introductoriy notes are repeated at the beginning of each verse and chorus, they are actually the last three notes of the I chord measure which ends the prior chorus and verse. So they're part of the last I chord.
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/31/2011: 16:07:05
The other advantage of knowing it for jams is that 'one, four, five' don't rhyme whereas G,C,D do.
That can get confusing in noisy areas.
JoeDownes - Posted - 01/31/2011: 16:08:05
Dave, if you like to write down 'This land is your land' starting with a split measure, that's alright with me, but I do agree with Sandy and Rich, who pointed out that the first notes of the song ("this land is") are (formally) pick up notes and thus the first measure of the song is a 'pick up measure' and the progression really starts on the IV chord. It really doesn't make much sense any other way. The first strong downbeat, the first beginning of a measure, is on the word 'your' and that's where the progression starts.
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/31/2011: 16:48:17
There are a lot of pickup notes in This Land. About the same as Study War No More. "I'm gonna lay down my sword and shield
This Land is Your Land
Woody Guthrie
(I / ) | IV / / / | I / / / | V / / / | I / / /
IV / / / | I / / / | V / / / | I / / /
This land is your land, this land is my land,
From California to the New York Island,
From the Redwood Forests
to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me (two-three-this land is YOUR...)
As I was walking that ribbon of highway,
I looked above me, there in the skyway,
I saw below me, the Golden Valley;
This land was made for you and me.
I roamed and rambled, and followed my footsteps
Through the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts,
And all around me this voice kept saying,
"This land was made for you and me."
As the Sun was shining, and I was strolling
Through the wheat fields waving
and the dust clouds rolling,
I could feel inside me and see all around me,
This land was made for you and me.
As I went walking, I saw a sign there;
On the sign it said NO TRESPASSING,
But on the other side it didn't say nothing
That side was made for you and me!
Nobody living can ever stop me
as I go walking that freedom highway
Nobody living can make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.
I'm a-chasin' my shadow out across this roadmap
to my wheatfield waving, to my cornfields dancing.
As I go walking this wind keeps talking
This land was made for you and me.
I can see your mailbox, I can see your doorstep
I can feel my wind rock your tip-top-treetop
All around your house there my sunbeam whispers
This land was made for you and me.
JoeDownes - Posted - 01/31/2011: 16:53:45
Thanks Minstrelmike, It's a good idea to write the pickup measure in parenthesis. Of course the pick up notes are not to be ignored for practical reasons, and the brackets do indicate where the progression really starts.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/31/2011: 18:31:48
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
The other advantage of knowing it for jams is that 'one, four, five' don't rhyme whereas G,C,D do.
That can get confusing in noisy areas.
Good point! Also, it's easier to give visual signals by numbers. (Ever try indicating "Bb" with a hand signal?)
Numbers and hand signals saved my butt at a gig once. I was filling in with a band I hadn't played with much, and I was standing where I couldn't see the guitarist's left hand. A friend of mine (Yvonne Walbroehl, whom some of you California pickers may know) came by to hear us, and when I didn't know a song, she'd watch the guitar player from her seat at the end of the bar and flash me the numbers for the first verse or so, until she saw that I'd gotten the chords.
Richard Dress - Posted - 01/31/2011: 18:39:51
Good point, I agree. I have seen hats with lighted numbers on them indicating the changes. Perfect jam hat.
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/31/2011: 18:43:17
An electric hat sounds kewl.
One of the problems we'll have at a jam is when the lead person plays it thru with a wrong chord the first time.
We all learn it exactly that way and you can't hardly excise the chord because -someone- is playing that wrong chord every time thru. It's kind of funny how that can happen.
We're all on -record- mode the first time thru and nail the progression, right, wrong or otherwise.
GrayBanjo - Posted - 01/31/2011: 18:52:00
This is great.
And this certain progression is part of the 'blues' style of musical theory. The full progression would be...
12 bar blues - I " " " IV " I " V IV I V
" = repeat
works amazing on the piano, but the banjo needs its own tweaking. There are plenty of variations.
Just if people wanted to know more.
Ukeridge - Posted - 01/31/2011: 20:59:58
So here's a question for those experienced players that tend to think in numbers more than letters: If you're playing in the key of B, say, with a capo, and you decide to take an up the neck break, in the Sally Goodin position, say. Do you know which frets your going to just from habit? Or do you switch to the letter ("OK, the 5 chord in B is F# and I'll play that where I know it, capo or no capo)?
In other words, with the capo, we tend to just play what we know in G, moved up. Does this stay true up the neck, or do you switch back to your knowledge of the fretboard in G, while playing up the neck in B?
See what I'm asking? Just a question of mentality . . .
Dave Magram - Posted - 02/01/2011: 01:03:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ukeridge
So here's a question for those experienced players that tend to think in numbers more than letters: If you're playing in the key of B, say, with a capo, and you decide to take an up the neck break, in the Sally Goodin position, say. Do you know which frets your going to just from habit? Or do you switch to the letter ("OK, the 5 chord in B is F# and I'll play that where I know it, capo or no capo)?
In other words, with the capo, we tend to just play what we know in G, moved up. Does this stay true up the neck, or do you switch back to your knowledge of the fretboard in G, while playing up the neck in B?
See what I'm asking? Just a question of mentality . . .
Ukeridge,
An excellent question which proves my main point about the value of thinking of chords by numbers.
We need to define a few terms to answer your question most clearly: “triad” and “inversion”.
TRIAD
Every major chord is made up of three notes: 1, 3, 5.
EXAMPLE: In the key of G, these notes would be: G, B, D.
These three notes are called a “triad”.
INVERSION
An “inversion” just means sequencing the notes in a chord differently. No matter how you sequence the three major triad notes, it is still the same chord.
Every major triad has three “inversions”: 1, 3, 5 = 3, 5, 1 = 5, 3, 1.
EXAMPLE: G, B, D = B, D, G = D, G, B.
On the first three strings of the banjo these three inversions are found:
1) G, B, D is open strings, at fret 0 (the nut)
2) B, D, G is F-shape, frets 3-5
3) D, G, B is D-shape, frets 7-9
Let’s number the inversions to discuss them more easily:
1) Open is the first inversion of the I chord (G in this case)
2) F-shape, frets 3-5 is the second inversion of the I chord (G in this case)
3) D-shape, frets 7-9 is the third inversion of the I chord (G in this case)
-----------------------------------------------------
Now let’s answer the question.
“If you're playing in the key of B, say, with a capo, and you decide to take an up the neck break, in the Sally Goodin position, say.”
Let’s forget the capo for a moment to simplify the question to this:
“If you're playing in the key of G, IN THE OPEN POSITION and you decide to take an up the neck break, in the Sally Goodin position...”
When you are playing in the open position (fret 0), you are playing in the first inversion of the I chord (G in this case).
When you move up to the “Sally Goodin position”, you are playing in the third inversion of the I chord (G in this case).
THE CAPO IS YOUR NEW “ZERO FRET”
When you put a capo on, ALL OF THESE INVERSION RELATIONSHIPS REMAIN EXACTLY THE SAME. So do the distances between them.
Wherever the capo is becomes your new “zero fret”.
An F-shape at frets 3-5 above the capo is still the second inversion of the I chord.
A D-shape at frets 7-9 above the capo is still the third inversion of the I chord.
Make sense?
- Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 02/01/2011: 01:13:24
Minstrel Mike, Rich Weill, Joe Downes,
With all due respect gents, I started this thread to discuss the value of thinking of chords as numbers instead of letters.
I believe that the debate about pick-up notes is distracting from the thread.
I am not accusing anyone of intentionally hijacking the thread—it just happened.
I will begin a new thread to discuss/debate the so-called “pick-up notes” in This Land/Little Darling.
I ask that we move the discussion to there so as to not confuse any of the newer players—okay?
Dave
Dave Magram - Posted - 02/01/2011: 01:47:57
quote:
Originally posted by Ukeridge
Or do you switch to the letter ("OK, the 5 chord in B is F# and I'll play that where I know it, capo or no capo)?
See what I'm asking? Just a question of mentality . . .
Hi Ukeridge,
I realized that I did not answer your second question (above).
I usually do not think of the chords in letter-names while I am playing, because it takes me too long to work out that the “5 chord in B is F#” for example.
In the keys that I’m more familiar with, such as D, A, F, and E, I probably do sometimes think of the letter-names, simply to make sure I’m going to correct frets—almost as a double-check on myself.
It is important to know your fingerboard, so that if someone said “Play me an F#”, you know where to go.
But I find that while playing, it is much easier and quicker to think in terms of chord-numbers.
I suspect that most experienced players do the same.
-Dave
JoeDownes - Posted - 02/01/2011: 02:18:04
Dave, in my book they are called 'root position' (GBD), 'first inversion' (BDG) and 'second inversion' (DGB). I hope this does not confuse anyone.
banjoak - Posted - 02/01/2011: 02:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Magram
quote:
Originally posted by Ukeridge
Or do you switch to the letter ("OK, the 5 chord in B is F# and I'll play that where I know it, capo or no capo)?
See what I'm asking? Just a question of mentality . . .
Hi Ukeridge,
I realized that I did not answer your second question (above).
I usually do not think of the chords in letter-names while I am playing, because it takes me too long to work out that the “5 chord in B is F#” for example.
In the keys that I’m more familiar with, such as D, A, F, and E, I probably do sometimes think of the letter-names, simply to make sure I’m going to correct frets—almost as a double-check on myself.
It is important to know your fingerboard, so that if someone said “Play me an F#”, you know where to go.
But I find that while playing, it is much easier and quicker to think in terms of chord-numbers.
I suspect that most experienced players do the same.
-Dave
I had no idea that it was hidden information. It seems to come up quite frequently, and early on in jamming.
I usually don't think in either letter names or numbers when playing, I just hear the sound of the IV and the V, and know where my fingers go (or shape) for what key I'm in. I try to minimize having to think at all of any technical and theory when playing - it's only when I have to call out the chords. It does get confusing, because you have to know which system the other person uses. The capo makes it hard to call the names should I say G because of the shape, or A because it's really A, or will the other be able to understand the number?
I do prefer numbers for what you mentioned, but also they don't sound phonetically similar. We've probably all had the experience of the mixed up Gee, Cee, Dee, Eee, Bee at a jam. And you can hold up fingers with one hand for numbers.
The numbers though don't seem as useful, except with experienced musicians, when you get past I, IV, V. In the key of G, calling E minor is easier than six, and sometimes the six is VI7 major and sometimes vi minor, and two can really throw them, so I just say the letter name for those. And the fiddler and lead guitar (up the neck no capo type) often really prefer letter names.
bellflower - Posted - 02/01/2011: 03:27:38
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
...
The numbers though don't seem as useful, except with experienced musicians, when you get past I, IV, V. In the key of G, calling E minor is easier than six, and sometimes the six is VI7 major and sometimes vi minor, and two can really throw them, so I just say the letter name for those. And the fiddler and lead guitar (up the neck no capo type) often really prefer letter names.
Good comment. Sometimes I actually like it even better for chords like 3 and 6, though. At a jam last week someone called a song in Eb (!) and it had a 6 in it. I heard it and played it from relative positions, and it never crossed my mind the whole song what the name of the chord was. (and still hasn't
)
Question: How do 'experienced musicians' (for lack of a better description) call chords that are different from 'normal'? In a major key, the 'normal' VI chord is a minor chord. How would you call the E major (if it's in G) in Salty Dog with hand signals, for example?
I'm thinking of Ira's helpful friend at the bar, tho' I s'pose a bass player can skip the third the first time through and hear it after that. Is that what you do?
Sandy
Edited by - bellflower on 02/01/2011 03:29:07
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/01/2011: 03:57:15
Dave,
You are giving so much advice here and writing so much I feel a little guilty asking for more of your time but this question seems to me to be a natural extension of using this system. About midway through on the first page Minstrelmike posted the I, IV, V chord positions relative to each other dependent upon the I chord being either a bar, the F shape, or the D shape.
My question to you is are there any other I,IV, V chord combinations that use use more frequently and if so what are they? Are there some default thinking patterns/cord combnations you quickly go to when having to play on the fly? I guess this gets a little into how you think of the neck. I don't know if good players like yourself look at it differently or have different favorite patterns/combniations or if the whole neck to someone of your experience is so well known that it is all like cherries ready to be picked and hence no favorite combinations/patterns.
Thanks again for taking the initiative to start this thread and for all the time you have spent in reading and posting.
Ken
Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 02/01/2011 04:00:09
mebacon - Posted - 02/01/2011: 04:10:09
Ken,
I know this question was addressed to Dave and I am not qualified to answer it but Gary "Biscuit" Davis is and he has a DVD called "Easy Chord Method" for playing the banjo. He divides the. Neck into three parts and shows you how to use the three chord shapes to get move quickly from the I, IV, and V chords. To paraphrase him, "you are never more than two frets from the right note".
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/01/2011: 04:20:53
Martin,
Thanks for your help. I saw where Dave made his last post last night at 1:43 am so I was not expecting to hear anything this morning.
Ken
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