steve davis - Posted - 02/01/2011:  06:19:35

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Once I know the key,I work from chord patterns(shapes) and how they are spaced
on the neck.
I also know how to work from chord/key names such as Cfg,Gcd,Ade,etc.

Knowing where the chords are and their names
What chords are in each key by name
Hearing the chord changes as in how a change to the IV chord sounds(feels)
different from a V change (for starters).

Hearing these changes will help a lot in an unfamiliar tune.
Knowing where the chords are on the neck is very important.

Anyone should know that a D shape A chord is at the 11th fret or an F shape C chord
is at the 10th fret.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/01/2011:  08:24:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by bellflower
Question: How do 'experienced musicians' (for lack of a better description) call chords that are different from 'normal'? In a major key, the 'normal' VI chord is a minor chord. How would you call the E major (if it's in G) in Salty Dog with hand signals, for example?

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If I was playing a song in the key of G and it went to E, I would tell them the progression goes around the circle of fifths/fourths OR some people will say "it goes around the horn."
The more experienced you get the less you have to consciously think about all of this. You just hear it and react.
The system Dave is describing is especially useful when playing with singers; it enables you to take a song you know and play it in any key.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/01/2011:  09:53:05

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If we're playing Salty Dog, I tell folks it goes around the circle of fifths and state the progression.
G to E then back around the circle A D G.

If we're playing a song such as Will the Circle Be Unbroken or Two Dollar Bill that may have an Em in it, I usually just say it's going to go to -the- minor. In G, that's the Em. In C, that's the Am

I find the Nashville Numbering scheme a lot more useful for simpler progressions than for complex ones, especially when you go around the circle or have sixth and seventh chords.

VI6 isn't very explanatory when said aloud.
Written down on paper makes it more useful.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/01/2011:  10:13:15

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I don't think there are patterns of 1,4,5 chords that you use more frequently than others.

There may be but I usually teach folks to think of 'regular' (major, non-modal) songs as having one of 4 possible chord progressions: 1,4,5 is the most common.

Then you can -add- the 2->5 (If you play a II chord, it almost always goes to the V next)
And/or you can add the 1,3,4 progression (G B C [G B7 C] is the same as far as I'm concerned) which is found in Old Home Place, Freight Train and Tennessee Waltz
Then there is the ragtime progression of which Salty Dog is a shortened version.
The long version in G is G B7 E7 A7 D7 G
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Of course, saying the 1,4,5 chord is a single progression isn't true but once you get comfortable enough to get used to the permutations, then it is.

The basic song like Mtn Dew or Circle or Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms usually go all 1 or 1-4 for the 1st two lines and then end with a 5 chord at the end of the 2nd line.
The 3rd line usually goes 1-4
The last line usually goes 1 5 1 but can just go to the 5->1.

I don't even waste my time trying to memorize all the various permutations.

There are two tricks to really getting this in your mind and in your fingers. One is to actually have songs of your own that you apply this thinking to. That means -knowing- the backup to all the songs you play leads to and then thinking of the backup in NashNumber terms. It really helps if you have a few songs in some other key than G.

(Number the complicated chord progressions in the beginning of Blackberry Blossom (G) and the end of Whiskey Before Breakfast (D) and you'll see they are identical progressions.)

The other way is to go to jams and just chord along with songs using up-the-neck chords. If it has a weird chord, then don't play (or ask someone what it is) but you'll quickly see that most of the songs form patterns on the fingerboard. (You won't see the pattern using chords with open strings).

In addition, at a jam, you'll be training yourself to hear the difference between regular songs (1,4,5) and irregular ones. That's the first step to hearing chord changes. After a bit (maybe two jams), you'll be able to hear that it's going to a 4 or 5.

But if you want the general scheme, well there are only 6 possible chord changes for a 1,4,5 song.
1->4
1->5
4->5
4->1
5->1
5->4

Practice these switches using each of the 3 possible starting points as the 1 chord (f-shape, d-shape, and barre) and you'll have all the changes you need to practice for regular 1,4,5 songs. The number of beats for each chord depends on the song.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/01/2011:  10:19:41

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As far as when I have to play in other keys such as Eb or B, I do it like Dave and explicitly try to avoid thinking in terms of the concert key because then I'll get confused.

Instead, I locate a home position (one chord) in either d-shape (my favorite) or f-shape and then just play from there and listening for the 1,4,5 changes. If I want to change to another home spot, then I need to know the name or else just work my way up or down using the 4,5 chords to get there.

That to me is where the usefulness of the positional thinking or Nashville Numbering thinking comes in. Not having to think of the actual name of the chord.

Dave Magram - Posted - 02/01/2011:  10:22:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

Dave, About midway through on the first page Minstrelmike posted the I, IV, V chord positions relative to each other dependent upon the I chord being either a bar, the F shape, or the D shape.

My question to you is are there any other I, IV, V chord combinations that use use more frequently and if so what are they? Are there some default thinking patterns/cord combnations you quickly go to when having to play on the fly? I guess this gets a little into how you think of the neck.
Ken

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Ken,

Thanks for your very relevant and practical question.

First, let’s make sure everyone is on the same page.
As I explained above about inversions, there are only three possible inversions for a major triad: 1, 3, 5 or 3, 5, 1 or 5, 1, 3.
This means that there are only three possible inversions for G, only three possible inversions for C, and only three possible inversions for D.

The three chord inversions on the banjo are: barre chord; D-shape; F-shape.
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Ken asked how to think about the groupings of I, IV, V on the fingerboard.

There is no One Right Way to do this.
For example, I think of the fingerboard groupings a bit differently than shown on the charts that Minstrel Mike posted earlier in this thread.

I think of the fingerboard in three basic chord groups “chained” together at common points.

(Examples are given in the key of G.)
Group 1: I chord at “open” or “zero fret” (Barre-shape)
IV chord at frets 1-2 (D-shape)
V chord at frets 2-4. (D-shape)

Group 2: I chord at frets 3-5 (F-shape)
IV chord at fret 5 (Barre-shape)
V chord at frets 7 (Barre-shape)

Group 3: I chord at frets 7-9 (D-shape)
IV chord at frets 8-10 (F-shape)
V chord at frets 10-12 (F-shape)

Practical Applications:
1. Earl Scruggs would often stay in one chord-group when he backed up the verse, and move to a different chord-group to back up the chorus for variety.

2. If you try playing these groups, you will notice that the I, IV, V chords in a group either have common notes, or are just two frets away.
I think of these as “connecting points”.
Earl Scruggs would sometimes chromatically “climb up” (or “climb-down”) between these closely-located chords or connecting points in his back-up.

-Dave

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/01/2011:  10:57:15

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Dave,
Wonderfully clear answer thanks. But I am going t bother you with some follow-ups and if you want my mailing address to send a bill, I can understand.

1. When switching between the F shape G chord (frets 3-5) and the bar c at the 5th and bar D at the 7th, what finger do you feel it most efficient to bar with?

1A. And when you bar do you bar all 4 strings or just 1,2, & 3? Bar chords are harder for me to be comfortable with as I feel it is harder for me to get a clean hold on all the strings with a bar than it is in a D or F formation. The left hand seems like it has to work a lot harder.

2. When you go further up the neck to the 12th fret and beyond do you use the same combinations? Or would you use I chord, F formation, frets 15-17/ IV chord, D position, frets 12-14/ & V chord., D position 14-16. I ask this again because of my difficulty in switching from an F or D formation to a bar chord. It has seemed easier for me to reverse my fingers on the 2nd and 3rd string of the F & D formation rather than go to a bar chord. This at times has made my hand have to move further to make the chord change. Is this a bad habit I have? Do I need to change my thinking and work a lot more on bar chords?

I hop this makes sense.

Thanks again for your time in reading this and for your responses.

Ken

Jim T - Posted - 02/01/2011:  11:15:54

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Great question Ken. I've been dealing with this myself and seldom use bar chords for the same reason.

Jim

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/01/2011:  11:18:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jim T

Great question Ken. I've been dealing with this myself and seldom use bar chords for the same reason.

Jim

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Nice to have a guy like Dave make himself available to help us isn't it.
Ken

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/01/2011:  11:31:25

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When I go farther up-the-neck, I use fewer fingers.
Above 12th fret, I almost never do 4-finger chords.

When playing lead or picking backup instead of vamp, I tend to think in 3-finger chords and finger the 4th only when needed.

Begin able to know that xxx89 and xxx-12-12 are G chords centers you on the chord and the shape while leaving fingers free to get other notes for making your picking fancier. But you're still playing out of chord shapes/positions.

Dave Magram - Posted - 02/01/2011:  20:05:13

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for the kind words.
Just remember-- with free advice, you get what you pay for.

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

1. When switching between the F shape G chord (frets 3-5) and the bar c at the 5th and bar D at the 7th, what finger do you feel it most efficient to bar with?

1A. And when you bar do you bar all 4 strings or just 1,2, & 3? Bar chords are harder for me to be comfortable with as I feel it is harder for me to get a clean hold on all the strings with a bar than it is in a D or F formation. The left hand seems like it has to work a lot harder.

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Ken, I had to get out my banjo and see what I did, because it is not something I think about.
When I make barre chords on the banjo, I usually just fret strings 1, 2, 3.
I use my left index finger to do it, and to get the most pressure, I shift my thumb so that it is pressing on the back of the neck. And roll back on my index finger a little bit to get the bony part to hold down the string..
I use my index finger for barre chords because that allows me to fret the strings above the barre with my other three fingers—to make 6th or 7th chords for example.

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

2. When you go further up the neck to the 12th fret and beyond do you use the same combinations? Or would you use I chord, F formation, frets 15-17/ IV chord, D position, frets 12-14/ & V chord., D position 14-16. I ask this again because of my difficulty in switching from an F or D formation to a bar chord. It has seemed easier for me to reverse my fingers on the 2nd and 3rd string of the F & D formation rather than go to a bar chord. This at times has made my hand have to move further to make the chord change. Is this a bad habit I have? Do I need to change my thinking and work a lot more on bar chords?

Ken

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Above the 12th fret, I do use the same combinations as I do lower on the neck, but the groupings I described aren’t rigid—you can mix and match them however you like.
.
And I’m sure that I often do what you are suggesting and shift to that lower D-shape at frets 12-14 from the F-shape at frets 15-17-- mostly because it works better for backup.
Again there are no “rules” here.

I don’t often fret the fourth string when playing high up the neck, but sometimes do.
It depends on the song.
Why waste energy holding down all 4 strings if you don’t need to?

The only time it’s a “bad habit” is if it is limiting your playing or causing physical pain.
If it sounds good and works for you, don’t worry about it.

EXERCISE & PRACTICE
I used to give my students an exercise of playing through the I, IV, V groupings starting from fret zero, and going as high as they can, and then coming back down the neck.
Once they could that in G pretty well, I’d suggest that they try it in A, Bb, B, C, D. E. F.
Because if you want to play with others, you need to know how to do this.

And them listen to how Earl uses those positions to play backup, such as Why Don’t You Tell Me So, I Wonder Where You Are Tonight, etc.
It was often a light-bulb moment for them.

And then I’d get them to start learning the backup licks that Earl did, and they all got fabulously wealthy playing bluegrass banjo!

- Dave