EggSalad - Posted - 01/25/2011:  09:48:38

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I'm going on about 6 months of playing now. The challenge I am at right now is learning the neck. And I mean, really learning it. I know several chords, and a good 6 or 7 songs. I just don't know the neck as well as I should.

Ideally I'd like to be comfortable at vamping, some improve, and having full knowledge of chords and notes up and down the neck.

I'd love to hear how some of you learned the neck. Any practicing tips or things you did. THanks in advance.

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 01/25/2011:  10:22:20

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I drew up my own poster and have it hanging across from my couch with the major scales listed, modes, and circle of fifths. Getting to Know the fret board is all about practice. There are really only three strings strung differently on the banjo. 1-3. 4 is the same as 1 and octave lower. And five is the same as one note for note.

Pat Cloud has a great book out about the pentatonic stations on the neck.
"The Key to the Five String Banjo" Once you've practiced and memorized these you will well on your way to knowing the neck.



Hope this helps.

Storm

steve davis - Posted - 01/25/2011:  10:31:45

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My big breakthrough was discovering how all keys are built the same.
The chord positions and how they are arranged and repeat are the same for
the key of G#,A,Bb,B,C,etc., as they are for G...they just start at different frets.

Once you understand the key of G,you understand all keys.

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/25/2011:  10:35:14

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I just played the chords to lots of different songs out of song books without changing the key.

But for folks who learn the bluegrass way (key of G), I show them how to center themselves by using G chords.
Those occur at frets 0, 5,9,12,17, 21 (1st/4th string)

Know those and you can at least align yourself correctly.

From there, there are two approaches to learn. One is knowing the relationships of the particular chord form (There are three major chords barre, F and D shapes and all those g chords listed above come in one of those three varieties.

From an F-shape, know how to get the 4 and 5 chords and know those are C and D chords. Same with the other shapes. In addition, use the shapes to find the related minor chord G-Em, C-Am F-Dm and to make the 7th chords and then you've got a handle on finding them. (This requires learning how chords are formed).

The other approach from knowing where the G chords are is that now you know where the F and A chords are, 2 frets down or up respectively. Now that you know those, you can find the Bb and the C and so on and so forth.

But my recommendation is to work thru real songbooks and just strum the chords to those songs. patriotic songs, Green Day, hits of the 90s, anything you can get your hands on and just try to strum your way thru familiar songs in weird keys and the finding of the chords will teach you a lot. In addition, you'll discover that if you play the right chords, any sort of picking works and if you play around, you'll discover new songs.

double E - Posted - 01/25/2011:  10:41:56

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It was a year before someone explained to me what Steve Davis is talking about. Once I understood that the light came on. If you dont know what he means thats where to start at.

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 01/25/2011:  10:51:54

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If you have a p[iano it's helps ot a lot. The distance beween a D nore and an E note is a full step, but the distance between an E and an F is a half step. It's hard to imagine that on the banjo fingerboard, but the piano keys clear it right up. After you can make chords and scales on the paino playing the banjo up the neck is much easier.

EggSalad - Posted - 01/25/2011:  11:15:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

My big breakthrough was discovering how all keys are built the same.
The chord positions and how they are arranged and repeat are the same for
the key of G#,A,Bb,B,C,etc., as they are for G...they just start at different frets.

Once you understand the key of G,you understand all keys.

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I was just getting to realize this last night. I was sitting down with a picture of the fret board mapped out, and looking at patterns in it.

My approach has been to learn every G chord on the fret board, and then do the same for C, D, F etc... That is kind of what got me thinking about what you just wrote, but I hadn't confirmed any of that.

Thanks a bunch for sharing that. very helpful.

Thanks to everyone else as well. I really love getting others perspectives on this instrument.

JoeDownes - Posted - 01/25/2011:  11:23:27

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When you learn the G chords all over the neck, I find it useful to learn where the root, third and 5th are in three different shapes. After you learned the chords, expand them to the pentatonic scale, by adding the 2nd and 6th notes of the scale to your chord positions. Hope this makes sense to you.

Rich Weill - Posted - 01/25/2011:  12:46:31

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Here's something I picked up from Fred Sokolow's book "The Complete Bluegrass Banjo Method":

Start with a bar chord (including an open G, where the nut (fret 0) is the bar): skip two frets and get the same chord in an F shape (so, for G, skip frets 1 and 2, and get an F-shaped G chord on frets 3 to 5); skip one more fret and get the same chord in a D shape (skip fret 6 and get a D-shape G chord on frets 7 to 9); skip two more frets and get the same chord as a bar (skip frets 10 and 11, and get the G chord as a bar on the 12th fret); etc.

Bar -- skip 2 -- F shape -- skip 1 -- D shape -- skip 2 -- Bar -- skip 2 -- F shape -- skip 1, etc., etc.

You can begin this anywhere. For example, the D chord on frets 2 to 4: skip 2 frets (frets 5 and 6) and bar the next (7th) for another D; then skip 2 (8 and 9) and get an F-shaped D at frets 10 to 12.

I found this the easiest way to learn the location of the major chords on the fretboard.

steve davis - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:21:12

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I see what you're saying,Rich,but chord frets are usually called on the highest note of the chord.
For instance,

Open G...5 frets ..."F" shaped G...4 frets..."D" shaped G...3 frets...Barre G

joemcd - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:24:26

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Rich - Exactally what I was going to say. That served me well finding that.

Another thing I did when I was learning the bass and brought it to banjo in the early days was just run up and down scales on single strings and say the notes out loud. That helped me know where to instinctively put a finger for any note on the string. It won't nescesarily help with chords but if you couple it with chord technique might help. After all the basic shapes are just running up an down notes on each string.

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Edited by - joemcd on 01/25/2011 13:26:42

gshall - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:39:41

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I've got a chart in my pictures that I've used. Start with something you know, like the G or C chord. Keep the same fingering and go up (or down) the neck to get the rest of the chords. G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G. Then start finding all the C chords and identifying the note C. Do that for different chords and notes until you know them all.

Now, the real way to do it: Get Janet Davis' book on Backup Banjo. She has it ALL.

Docwgt - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:40:08

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I'm still learning it, really, but it helps to think about the three shapes on just the 3-2-1 strings like storm says. Learn where to put these shapes for some critical chords and know that you can move these covered chord shapes anywhere you want to. If an F-shape G chord is at the 5th fret, you move it up 2 frets for an A. The G shape G at the 12th fret can slide down 2 frets for and F, etc.

Then establish where the root, third and 5th is for each of these shapes--that never changes--so you can use that to tweak major chords around into 7ths, minors, etc. I have a diagram on my profile page showing the A major chord in each of the three shapes, with the 1,3, and 5 notes color-coded red/blue/yellow.

When you think like that I'm not even sure how important it is to know the name of each note--just know the chord you are using and the scale degrees within each shape.

Knowing this stuff is easy; it's the application that's taking time for me.

Tonyfr - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:45:14

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Good thread. I am new to playing the banjo and have been having the same problem on bass and guitar there always seemed to be a "pattern" for scales if you did not use open strings. I am trying to find them out as well. Also, running up the scale is a little wierd for me as the high string is where it is.

jimmer0 - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:46:47

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Thanks guys. This is the first time I've really understood the explanation for that. I can't wait to pick up my banjo and give it a try!

schlange - Posted - 01/25/2011:  13:59:03

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Incidentally--Fred Sokolow is teaching an online workshop March 6th based on his book "Fretboard Roadmaps for Banjo"--more info here: banjohangout.org/lessons/workshops/

tom elder - Posted - 01/25/2011:  14:05:58

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Earl's book

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/25/2011:  14:07:29

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Here's something else that might help. A chart with the 1,4,5 chords listed by position.

To find the major scale from chords, just arrange all the fingers of the 1,4,5 (G,C,D or C,F,G) chords in order and you've got the major scale of the 1 chord (G or C).

coelhoe - Posted - 01/25/2011:  16:40:39

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At one time I lived for a couple of years in an area with practically no secular bluegrass but with a lot of local CW jams. They loved the sound of the banjo but none of the standard banjo tunes. So I started playing guitar and dobro riffs as back up and leads. By the time I moved I really knew the entire neck.

I make banjo students learn at least four positions for every major and minor chord, all the inversions.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/25/2011:  17:46:21

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Take one song and learn it in multiple keys and positions.

WildBillNECPS - Posted - 01/25/2011:  19:15:52

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Many many years ago I was very lucky to have taken a few lessons with James McKinney.

James stressed how important it was to actually memorize the neck. Start slow, maybe just frets 1-3 and mentally say to your self "First string open is D. First string first fret is D# or E flat" and so on for all the strings. James suggested doing this right before you fall asleep. Also to mentally visualize it in your head.

Eventually (maybe a year or two) you will get to the point where you can confidently rattle off to yourself the entire neck. I do this now when I'm taking the dogs for a walk, or on a long drive, or am bored someplace like waiting for an appointment. I still sometimes try this right before bed.

One of the ways this comes in handy is that if you know where the root position is for a chord, for example third string on a bar chord, you can very easily and quickly play any chord because you will know the notes on the neck.

Hope this helps.

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 01/25/2011:  20:53:30

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Since now people seem to chatting about chord forms. Once you learn one chord it can get applied all over the place. Just as learning the five pentatonic stations in "G" give you all the the stations as well "C" "D" "A" etc.. just by moving the pattern. There are lots of "movable" scales as well as chords.
Learn all three major chord shapes, three minor chord shapes, three 7th chord, etc, etc, then start moving them around.


here are the major chord shapes for those still looking for this information:
I think major chord forms are easiest to remember visually and tonally this way.

1-index, 2-middle finger, 3-ring finger, 4- pinky

First position:

------- -------- --4-- ------ ------ -----------
----1- -------- ------ ------ ------ ----------
------- ---2--- ------ ------ ------ -----------
------- -------- --3-- ------ ------ -----------
------- -------- ------ ------ ------ ----------
*spaces in lines represent the frets

the FIRST POSITION the pinky (and ring finger) is on the root note on FIRST STRING.

move it up and down the neck ...pinky on fifth fret "G"
pinky on sixth fret "Ab"
pinky on seventh fret "A" ....etc, etc, etc.......

Second position:

------- -------- --4-- ------ ------ -----------
------- ---2--- ------ ------ ------ ----------
---1--- ------- ------ ------ ------ -----------
------- -------- --3-- ------ ------ -----------
------- -------- ------ ------ ------ ----------
*spaces in lines represent the frets

the SECOND POSITION the middle finger is on the root note on SECOND STRING.

move it up and down the neck ...middle finger on third fret of second string "D"
middle finger on fourth fret second string "Eb"
middle finger on fifth fret second string "E" , etc, etc, etc........


Third position:

------- ---1---- ------- ------- ------ -----------
------- ---1---- ------- ------- ------ -----------
------- ---1---- ------- ------- ------ -----------
------- ---1---- ------- ------- ------ -----------
------- --------- ------- ------- ------ -----------

*spaces in lines represent the frets

the THIRD POSITION bar chord the root note is on the THIRD STRING.
(a lot of the time I just fret the first three strings when I use barre position)

move it up and down the neck ...first fret "Ab"
second fret..."A"
third fret "Bb"...etc, etc, etc,.....

In the key of "G":
find all the first position, second position and third position frets for all the "G" "C" and "D" chords and you'll have many selections of I, III, and V chords.


once you've master the majors, the minors and 7th's work the same way.
They basically all have three positions.... that just move up and down the neck to achieve any key.


hope this helps

Storm

play it form the heart

BigKev77 - Posted - 01/25/2011:  21:04:41

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Great thread thanks guys!! This is really going to help me along.

Poisoned Dwarf - Posted - 01/26/2011:  05:51:17

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In the F position as you move up the neck the notes on 1st and 4th are the same as the chord
In the D position as you move up the neck notes on 2nd string same as chord
In the A bar position as you move up the neck notes on 3rd string same as chord
If you know the chords all the way up the neck that is an easy way to remember single notes

pickNgrin - Posted - 01/26/2011:  05:58:16

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I certainly don't know the neck as well as a lot of people on here, but here is what I did:

- First, learn to make the full D chord and the full F chord. If you can't yet do this, you may find it very difficult. You would be wise to persevere, because they will help unlock the neck, and they are SUPER useful for doing backup . It took me a full year to get comfortable making these chords, but once you get it you will have it for life. Keep after it! Small bits of progress will add up, and one day you will be able to do it and wonder why it was ever so hard. Just do it! The beauty of these chords is that you can move them up and down the neck to make pretty much any major chord. That's powerful! They are VERY useful when it comes time to play backup.

- Now take the D chord shape and slide it up 5 frets. Now you are making a G chord! You can keep sliding it way on up to make C and D chords too. Learn where those places are.

- Do the same thing with the full F chord. Sliding up 2 frets gives you a G. A little way further up gives you another C... 2 more past that gives you a D, etc.

- Learn all the places that you can get a G, C, or D chord using nothing but these two shapes. This is a LOT to digest, so just keep working at it.

- At this point, you can play backup in a jam session for HOURS, even if you don't know much else. It is very empowering! There are some awesome instructional DVDs out there that cover this stuff in great detail, and they are worth the money in my opinion. Acutab's Power Pickin' Volume 1 is one that is awesome, but there are others too.

- Many signature backup licks are based around the D-shape and F-shape chords up the neck. Two common ones that will get you a lot of mileage are the "in the mood" lick (based around the F-shape), and the "six white horses" lick, based around the D-shape.

Well, that ought to get you started. For me, getting to this point took years. Just keep after it and it will come to you. There are endless ways to build upon this foundation. Good luck!

-matt

Poisoned Dwarf - Posted - 01/26/2011:  06:06:21

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In the F position as you move up the neck the notes on 1st and 4th are the same as the chord
In the D position as you move up the neck notes on 2nd string same as chord
In the A bar position as you move up the neck notes on 3rd string same as chord
If you know the chords all the way up the neck that is an easy way to remember single notes

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/26/2011:  08:17:18

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Another way of relating chord forms and positions is to realize that if you move the the chord up to the next spot and pick the same string, such as plucking the 3rd string doing the G chord 5435 and then doing the G chord 9789, that is the same as moving up one string on the first chord, (picking the 2nd string instead of the 3rd).

Thus once you've got the names of the notes someplace, you've got them a whole lot of other places too.

Prof - Posted - 01/26/2011:  09:18:25

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Here's something I do all the time that fits the common I IV V progression:

For example,
Make a G chord at frets 3-5 (using the "F-shape")
Slide up 5 frets in same shape, and find C
Slide another 2 frets, and find D
If you want to continue on up the neck, go another 5 frets and continue the pattern an octave higher.

The "5-2-5" rule (as I was taught) works for any one particular chord shape (D, F, or barre)

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Edited by - Prof on 01/26/2011 09:19:47

steve davis - Posted - 01/26/2011:  09:32:44

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Once you learn the 3 basic chord shapes you can combine them so that you can play
the I II IV V from the same left hand location.

Very convenient.

Prof - Posted - 01/26/2011:  09:35:59

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Yep -- especially for faster tunes.

250gibson - Posted - 01/26/2011:  12:46:24

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Learning the banjo neck is easy. You only need to learn the notes on 3 strings, not all five. The notes on the 4th string are the same as the 1st string (they are both open D)and the notes on the 5th string are the same as the 3rd (they are both open g).

minstrelmike - Posted - 01/26/2011:  13:05:55

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I would say the notes on the 1st, 4th AND 5th string are identical.

The 5th is a G but if you fret the 1st string at the 7th fret and the 5th string at the 7th fret, you get the same exact note, not even off an octave like the 4th string is.

But that's a good point only having to know 3 strings instead of 5.

Tonyfr - Posted - 04/29/2011:  10:47:30

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Storm,

I just went back an re-read this thread.  Thanks for the major chord shapes.  That helps.

Tony

Kemo Sabe - Posted - 04/29/2011:  20:04:29

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Two things that have helped me quite a bit in learning the neck:

Band In A Box - I punched in 12 major chords into BIAB and set the tempo very low to start - about 50 bpm.  Then I started finding the chords up and down the neck and practicing, practicing, practicing.  Then, as time went on and that tempo got a little boring, I increased the tempo by 5 bpm and continued the practice ..... As I went to jams - well, lets talk about a specific song: Blue Ridge Cabin Home in the Key of G:  Find how many places you can find the I Chord (G chord) up and down the neck, the same with the IV Chord (C) and the same with the V Chord (D).  When you start making the practices musical (Blue Ridge Cabin Home for example) it gets to be more fun rather than the classroom BIAB exercise I mentioned above.  You can also set the chords in BIAB to the song of Blue Ridge Cabin Home and play the chords to that song or any other song.  When you get ready - change the key of the song to the Key of A for example and continue with the same process of learning the neck of the banjo.  Increase the tempo and change the key of the songs as practice progresses.  As many folks have mentioned above - it's the patterns of the chords that are the same all over the neck- when you know the Key of G you know all the keys. 

(Incidentally, & this is not number two in my essay - I have learned minor chords the same way as I first described punching in the major chords into Band In A Box.  With the minor chords the shapes are different but there are basically three shapes for playing minor chords up and down the neck.  Patterns for minor chords up and down the neck repeat over and over.  Once you learn the shapes and practice, practice - you can play minor chords all day long as easy as playing major chords.  Minor chords are not a big deal - they are just chords just like anything else and the way you learn any of this stuff is practice, practice, practice!)

The second way I have "Learned The Neck" is that I play in a Praise Band on Sundays in my church (this ain't your Bluegrass stuff by any means) and I try to go up and down the neck finding the various chord inversions.  We play a lot of fast stuff with very quick transitions from song to song (ah... so I do not use a capo, there is no time for such).....We also play a lot of minor chords and many of those minors are the relative minors.... so I learn real, practical use of terms like 'relative minor' and more.  For example, when we play in the Key of E we very often use C#minor somewhere in the song..... oh yeah! This is helping me "Learn The Neck".  Although the Praise Band stuff is not my favorite (Bluegrass is my favorite) - it is a great classroom for me to stand in front of several hundred folks in the congregation and play music with lots of rhythm, major chords, minor chords and it is my way of "Learning The Neck",

Well, this is how I have "Learned The Neck" - I hope it might give you an idea or two.  Phil

 

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Edited by - Kemo Sabe on 04/29/2011 20:14:23

mrbook - Posted - 05/01/2011:  17:20:36

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I just learned the banjo neck by playing. Each time I play I try to do something a little different with each song (it doesn't have to be much), and in doing variations I learned to put those moveable chords and licks to work all over the neck. The more I play, the more songs I try to learn, too, and you can always take something from one song and put it in another. Some days are better than others, but playing more will certainly reinforce your memory to know where to play on the neck.

Playing with others is important, too. My choice of what and where to play (particularly with backup and fills) depends on the song and the people I'm playing with - I have to listen to what they are doing to decide what I want to play to make the song and band sound good.