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Slingerland - Posted - 01/18/2011: 17:56:02
Thanks for sharing. A very cool banjo indeed. I just Checked Polle's database and this appears to be the earliest known example (If I am interpreting the database correctly).
Edited by - Slingerland on 01/18/2011 18:01:12
beezaboy - Posted - 01/18/2011: 18:46:40
Uh oh.
This ebay banjo is the earliest Silver Bell serial number in the database.
Polle has Silver Bell banjos dated 1922?
Can't be. The Silver Bell was not introduced until 1923.
Ed Britt says:
Scheidlmeier INTRODUCED the B&D Silver Bell, to the music world -- at a Music Trades show, in Chicago, the first week of June, 1923. Fred and Dave were apparently too busy to attend -- and Scheidlmeier represented the Bacon Co., at its exhibit.
My research in The Cadenza shows the first advertisements for
the Silver Bell to be fall 1923.
Does the database need surgery?
mikehalloran - Posted - 01/18/2011: 20:18:23
Could be that they were tinkering with the design in '22 - makers didn't always call them prototypes back then.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/18/2011: 22:03:35
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Uh oh.
This ebay banjo is the earliest Silver Bell serial number in the database.
Polle has Silver Bell banjos dated 1922?
Can't be. The Silver Bell was not introduced until 1923.
Hi Beeze --
It would be the earliest Silver Bell in Polle's database. But NOT the 'earliest-known'
SB -- by quite a few. My "target" for the earliest Silver Bell has been around #9000
for over 10 years.
On Polle's behalf... he's been patiently waiting, for over a year, for ME to pass some
Silver Bell info to him. I told him I'd do that after my Bacon presentation to the
Collectors Gathering, in Rochester, last year.
(Polle WILL get the info... but it won't happen for a while. I'm quite busy this month,
moving my office.)
I've seen 6 Silver Bells in the #9000 range. Earliest I have seen, so far, is #91xx. Four
of them have been seriously modified, and upgraded with different necks, resonators,
flanges, soft pedals, etc.
The Ebay banjo is mostly original, except for the resonator back. (The resonator SHOULD
be the solid "turned"-back type.)
The ebay SB also has a rare early feature, that I call the "Different D" peghead -- shown
below left. The "Regular D" peghead is at right:
The Different D is the earliest design, seen in the earliest Silver Bell catalog photo -- and
the "B" and the "D" MATCH. They are the same 'font'. (But some of those "Different D"
peghead veneers were used on later banjos -- around 10xxx. Perhaps due to a parts shortage.)
The Regular D -- which is the TYPICAL peghead, is actually a re-design... Probably to make
it look similar to the fancy Spencerian Script "D" -- that David Day used for his signature.
The early 9xxx Silver Bells all use ONLY 2 resonator screws. One on each side. And the
resonator flange has small 1/4" dia. holes. The earliest catalog photo, and the patent drawing,
shows grommets used to 'dress-off' the flange holes. But I've never seen an actual photo of
that detail anywhere. (There were 3/8" dia holes, and 1/2" holes used in later models, BEFORE
the 'f-hole' flange was introduced.)
One other little detail, used on the earliest Silver Bells -- they have a little 'fleur de lis' inlaid
at the 5th fret.
quote:
Ed Britt says:
Scheidlmeier INTRODUCED the B&D Silver Bell, to the music world -- at a Music Trades
show, in Chicago, the first week of June, 1923. ...
... My research in The Cadenza shows the first advertisements for
the Silver Bell to be fall 1923.
Does the database need surgery?
Just a touch... The earliest Silver Bell prototypes would probably have been made in very
late-1922, and in early-1923. So the early-#90xx (presumed) range might have been
made in late '22. Revisions, in the early-91xx range, would have been made in early-1923.
But that's still ALL presumptive. No "hard" documentation has shown up, to connect specific
early SB's serials with a specific date.
The Silver Bell was probably supposed to be introduced at the 1923 Spring Guild show, but
wasn't ready in time. So they were introduced at the June show in Chicago. But that June
date was less than 9 months after David Day walked in the door. (The Silver Bell patent wasn't
filed until 11/23/23. And it took FOUR years to have it granted -- on 12/20/27.)
Best-
Ed Britt
©1/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/18/2011 22:20:43
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/19/2011: 01:08:24
John,
quote:
Does the database need surgery?
No - it doesn´t! It gets a lot of "intakes" and math treatment on a daily basis - that´s sufficient!
Besides - what´s the difference between 1923 and 1922? 1 year? No - the difference is between 1 and 12 months! With an average of 6 months!
+/- 6 months ~ ½ year is an ultimative accuracy for a database of this sort. However I´m constantly trying getting it even more accurate.
Todays revision contains an adaption of Mr. Day´s employment - I have been working on this for some days.
It also contains an adjustment of the slopes for the production curve. The manufacturing dates in the database are based on this curve - and the curve itself is based on a large number of shipping/sales dates between 1925 and 1940.
The revised curve shows, that the maximum production rate is to be found in 1925 - not 1927/28 as supposed till now.
Do notice, that the stock crash late 1929 seems not to have caused a sudden drop in production rate - au contraire - besides the annual production at that time had already dropped to only appr. 50% of the 1925 production.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/19/2011 03:56:15
beezaboy - Posted - 01/19/2011: 05:08:14
quote:
what´s the difference between 1923 and 1922?
Well, you're right. Not many (populartion-wise) care.
But, I care.
Many months ago Ed Britt needled me about writing an essay
about the "modern" tenor banjo.
And it is done.
Start to "Finish".
Ragtime to Red Garter.
In the paper I discuss the big three (Paramount, Vega & Bacon).
From the literature it is clear that the Paramount was introduced
"fall" of 1921. I can document November 1921. Full page ads
by Dec 1921. With the Paramount, Lange was alone at the top.
How long? Who was next? Vega or Bacon?
Well, I can document Vega with its Vegaphone at August 1923.
So, based on Ed's knowledge I waffle and state that the Vegaphone
and Silver Bell were introduced "almost simultaneously".
The literture I have been able to accumulate, however, puts first
mention of Silver Bell in December 1923 (The Cadenza) with first
real push at advertising the Silver Bell in Feb 1924 (full pg. ad).
In Jan 1924 Day said he was pleased with Silver Bell sales (Music Trade review) and took a Silver Bell 1/4 page ad in Music Trade Review in Feb. 1924 same month and year as Cadenza ad. So there were
Silver Bell banjos extant in 1923. But 1922?? C'mon.
So, you're right. In the context of the extent of Iran and N. Korea
nuclear weapon capabiltiy this doesn't even reach the level of small potatoes. But, I am into tenor banjos not nuclear weapons and trying
to get the history as accurately as I can. And youse guys help me
immeasurably.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/19/2011: 06:56:03
John,
quote:
The literture I have been able to accumulate, however, puts first mention of Silver Bell in December 1923
In Bacon´s 1924 catalog - written
Sept. 1, 1923 - they have a remark at the last page about Scheidlmeier, who´s quoted for writing earlier that year:
“Recieved the two Bacon banjos today. The style A1 B&D Silver Plated Super banjo is the handsomest musical instrument and has the best quality of tone that I have ever heard.
The new model Silver Bell is a wonder. It is the loudest banjo I ever played on and has the snap. It is just the banjo for those who are interested in the extended back instrument.”Just FYI.
Strange - the Silver Bell model is NOT included in this 1924 catalog - but in the price list, also dated Sept. 1, 1923, it´s present in the styles 1, 2 &3 and as both tenor, plectrum & regular!
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/19/2011 07:39:53
beezaboy - Posted - 01/19/2011: 07:39:32
Polle:
Thank you! Really!!
Your keen eye found a little Scheidlmeier note that helps date
banjo introduction. I love it when those historic tidbits are found.
AND, Scheidlmeier had the courtesy to call it "new model" and refers
to the resonator (he probably meant "acousticon" but would have
been sued for saying it.)
However, the note is consistent with Ed Britt's documentation
that Scheidlmeier's assisted the Silver Bell introduction to the
trade in June 1923. This makes me feel more confident that
the Vegaphone and Silver Bell "modern" tenor banjos were
introduced almost "simultaneously" in the summer 1923.
So, I hate to say it (really) for all the work you have done on the
database...but perhaps you might consider doning your surgical
mask and selecting a scapel for a bit of reconstructive surgery
on the old girl. And, there is precedent for such a hospitalization.
As I recall she received a bit of cosmentic surgery at the 1938 end
of the list.
Just sayin'...I'm just a piker when it comes to this work and have
no business making recommendations. Forgive me if I have been
presumptous.
Edited by - beezaboy on 01/19/2011 07:44:10
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/19/2011: 07:56:09
John,
As mentioned earlier the database is revised almost every day - with the incorporation of new records - and with small adjustments of the datings, based on new shipping/sales infos and other infos/knowledge.
In 6 years I´ve put together datas for appr. 7% of all B&D/Bacon banjos produced - if lets say half of them still exists and my work continues at the same speed - we´ll have all existing banjos included in the database in year 2048 - at that time I´ll be 101 years old - but still strumming!
And perhaps some exact dating infos for the 1920-24 production will have popped up in the meantime. For now the earliest confirmed sale is from early 1925.
Polle
carlb - Posted - 01/19/2011: 09:21:09
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1The ebay SB also has a rare early feature, that I call the "Different D" peghead -- shown
below left. The "Regular D" peghead is at right:
See Ed's earlier post for the pictures.
I'd only like to add that my Bacon Professional #3, serial # 9610, has the same shape peg head as on the one on the left.
Also, I don't know where I got it, there's no other info then what's entered in the Bacon Professional Banjo Database:
#8750, Silver Bell #2, 5-string, Groton
which I previously posted:
banjohangout.org/archive/132612
beezaboy - Posted - 01/19/2011: 09:46:25
quote:
The manufacturing dates in the database are based on this curve
Ah, curves.
They certainly are welcome on beautiful women.
Banjo production dates...hmmmm.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/19/2011: 22:41:35
Regarding curves - banjos are - like ships - females!
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/19/2011: 23:29:42
Carl,
For now I have not included the #8750 in the general database.
Reason - it seems "wrong" - not only for the low numbered SN - but also and especially for it being a RB.
But I have saved your info - if other somehow similar Silver Bell´s pop up - I´ll include it.
Regards
Polle
BanjoLink - Posted - 01/20/2011: 07:08:36
Polle:
I have a Silver Belle here that resides with my other banjos and I doubt that the serial number has ever been recorded in any database. I doubt that there is anything special about the banjo, but believe it to be all original. Would you like the serial number and photos of the banjo?
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/20/2011: 07:58:50
John L. & Others,
Yes please - do mail me infos about and if possible also some pics of your beloved B&D/Bacon´s.
There´s a direct link to my mail-address at the top of the database acoustudio.dk/BD_and_Bacon_database.
Feel free asking me - if you want some further infos about your banjo(s).
Polle
PS!
Records are streaming in these days - this morning f.ex. the datas for an ultra-rare ´26 Silver Bell #5 plectrum (for sale in California, I think) popped up.
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/20/2011 21:31:46
beezaboy - Posted - 01/21/2011: 08:35:24
BTW - In All Frets magazine No. 47-04 (July/August 2004)
the editor of the publication, banjoist Johnny Baier, published an article entitled: "Bacon & Day and the story of the Silver Bell banjo."
Baier credits Ed Britt, Jim Bollman and Rick Tipple for sharing their
knowledge with him in the preparation of the article.
In the article Baier states that the first Silver Bell models with
17 frets were introduced in August 1923. He does not say when
the neck was lengthened to 19 frets. In the Feb 1924 issue of
The Cadenza a Silver Bell is depicted and appears to have a
19 fret neck. Does anyone know when the Silver Bell got a
nineteen fret neck?? I'm going to put up a separate post for this too.
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:06:30
Well...
I just spent the better part of a day, preparing a very long, detailed and
illustrated response to some of the questions above. When I went to post it --
it clipped it off at about 1/4 the length.
Would a MODERATOR like to clue me in as to the word/inch limit on postings?
I've never heard of anything so ridiculous...
Or have they changed the name to -- Twitter BHO?
I guess I'll have to laboriously break it into parts...
NOT happy....
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 11:23:50
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:10:11
PART 1-A
--------------
As Mr. Peabody (of Rocky and Bullwinkle fame) would say:
"Sherman! Please set the Wayback Machine to November 14th, 2009.
We're going to travel back, in time, to see Ed Britt's presentation on
"The Transitional Bacons: 1920-1925" at The Banjo Collectors' Gathering,
in Rochester, NY!"
Source: toonopedia.com/peabody.htm
toonopedia.com/peabody.htm
And... IF all of you could simply do that --
most of your questions would be answered...
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
... Who was next? Vega or Bacon?
Well, I can document Vega with its Vegaphone at August 1923.
So, based on Ed's knowledge I waffle and state that the Vegaphone
and Silver Bell were introduced "almost simultaneously".
Beeze--
It's been a while since I went through the 1920s Cadenzas, Crescendos,
and Music Trades magazines.
Vega 'announced' their Vegaphone in April 1923 -- in time for the Washington,
DC Guild Show. But they didn't actually INTRODUCE it, until late-'24, or
early-'25. (IF I remember correctly -- which is not sure thing, these days...)
They just kept publishing ads saying things like: 'It's Coming!'
(That's NOT a direct quote...)
I was too busy getting my specific Bacon info together. But I did highlight
copies the Vega ads, that I ran across... However, I'd have to search through
a pile of folders to dig them out.
(And I believe Weymann introduced their original resonated tenor at the NYC
Spring '22 Guild Convention. -- and their Megaphonic tenor at the Spring '23
convention. Again... been a while since I went through that stuff.)
Here's a tip I got from Eli Kaufman:
Look through the magazine and find the Masthead -- or other place where
they list the advertising rates -- and see what the DEADLINE was, for placing
an ad.
... o The deadline was often a month before the edition was actually published.
... o Then... the advertiser needed to back-out some time to get the PASTE-UP
........ designed and done -- by either their Art Dept, their Advertising firm, or the
........ Publishers Art Dept.
... o IF photographs were needed for the ad, they also had to back-out time to
........ o get the 'prototype' instrument ready
........ o then have a photographer snap it
........ o then the photos were usually hand-retouched -- to bring out details
And...
Here's a slide from my "Bacon Transistional" presentation -- showing a
RE-TOUCHED photo, in the 1923-24 catalog, of a Bacon Blue Ribbon MB --
that has "B&D Silver Tone", and scrolls hand-painted on the peghead. The
backstrap was also added by re-touching. (I'm pretty sure they ran into some
trademark problems with THAT one...)
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011 NOTE: This slide -- and ones following -- are some of the 50+ slides from my
presentation. (I'm purposefully reducing the size, and have added a quick
copyright notice to them -- to protect the generosity of my sources...)That whole advertisement process added a ANOTHER month or two to the
schedule -- PLUS the standard deadline time -- depending on how involved
the ad was. You can estimate that the item mentioned, or SEEN in an ad, was
often ready from 1 to 3 months BEFORE the publication date.
If the ad was published in March -- to be seen in time for the April show... the
'prototype' was probably underway in November or December.
Bacon typically started to PREPARE their catalog in the Fall, to have it ready
by Feb. or March -- in preparation for the Annual Spring Guild Show.
Here's an example, confirming that statement -- from the Music Trades. The
1926 Bacon Catalog was announced March 8, 1926. (Clicking on the link will
download a PDF file of the whole Music Trades page.):
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1926...11-38.pdfEd Britt
©1/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 10:02:54
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:17:11
PART 1-B
--------------
One other factoid: In Trademarking the "Silver Bell" name, the registration states:
"...this trade-mark has been used continuously in the business of said corporation
since "April 2d, 1923..."
That April date suggests that at least a printed flyer was produced, in time for
the April 1923 Guild Convention, in Washington, DC.
It was probably THIS rare one. (Which has never been reprinted, as far as I know):
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011
Note that the resonator back has a raised perimeter -- but it is much flatter, and
also doesn't have the inner raised circle, which the early production Silver Bells
have. (The back in the photo has been retouched... so we're not sure what that
prototype resonator back ACTUALLY looked like...)
Here are some close-ups of the other details, from the EARLIEST-known photo
of a Silver Bell. (These scans were taken from a 1924 Distributor's catalog, with
higher-quality printing -- hence the use of "Patent Pending". The Silver Bell Patent
was filed on Nov. 24, 1923. it wouldn't be granted until 1927.):
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011
Note the use of grommets to dress-off the flange holes. The "Different D" on
the peghead. (Hard to see at this size... take my word for it...)
The Silver Bell came standard with A 17-fret tenor neck, 1/4"dia round-hole flange,
turned resonator back, Presto Tailpiece, and Waverly friction pegs.
It had NO armrest, NO Oettinger tailpiece, NO Soft Pedal, and NO geared tuners!
Please KEEP these RARE, HISTORIC, early Silver Bells as ORIGINAL as possible!!!
Please DON'T try to 'up-grade', and 'modernize' them -- and turn them into:
"Just another Silver Bell".
(There are PLENTY of playable, later, 'modern' production Silver Bells to buy.)
That early photo was TRACED to create the drawing used on the Silver Bell Patent:
(Look at the positions of the peg buttons...)
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011
Ed Britt
©1/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 10:55:27
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:20:18
PART 2
--------------
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
... In Bacon´s 1924 catalog - written Sept. 1, 1923 - they have a remark at
the last page about Scheidlmeier, who´s quoted for writing earlier that year:
“Recieved the two Bacon banjos today. The style A1 B&D Silver Plated Super banjo
is the handsomest musical instrument and has the best quality of tone that I have ever
heard.
The new model Silver Bell is a wonder. It is the loudest banjo I ever played on and
has the snap. It is just the banjo for those who are interested in the extended back
instrument.”
Strange - the Silver Bell model is NOT included in this 1924 catalog - but in the price
list, also dated Sept. 1, 1923, it´s present in the styles 1, 2 &3 and as both tenor,
plectrum & regular!
Polle--
The 1923/1924 catalog is one of the main reasons I got so involved in studying the
Blue Ribbons. It is "The Rosetta Stone" of the Silver Bell's history. BUT it is also
a complete mess.
It originally started-out as the 1923 catalog -- in Fall of 1922. (When DLD showed
up.) But it was delayed, and changed, so many times -- that it eventually became the
muddled, and almost useless, "1924" catalog. (When it FNALLY was announced, as
being 'available' -- Bacon referred to it, in an ad, as the "1922-24 catalog".)
So.... there is NO "1923 catalog". (And I looked for it for 30 years.)
I have been lucky enough to know a few collectors and dealers -- who stumbled
onto small caches of personal papers from Mike Scheidlmeier, and also from a
close friend of Fred Bacon and David Day. The signatures in the following slide
came from some of those papers:
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011 NOTE: The Flamboyant "D"s in David Day's signature, suggest that the reason
for changing the early "Different D", on the Silver Bell's peghead -- was to have
a "D" that better-resembled the one in Day's signature...The Scheidlmeier papers included that 1923/24 catalog. BUT, unlike the reprint,
Mr. S. had THREE DIFFERENT Price Lists for it.
They were apparently sent to him as 'proofs', to critique -- or just to keep him
"in the loop". (Chuck Ogsbury does the same thing for me...) Scheidlmeier was an
advisor (and 'test pilot") on the development of the Blue Ribbon banjos, AND on
the Silver Bell.
The three price lists are very different... ALL three price lists state :
"REVISED PRICE LIST. EFFECTIVE SEPTEMBER. 1, 1923 -- This Cancels all Previous Lists"Here's another slide from my presentation -- showing the fronts of the three rare price lists:
(The first 2 have never been reprinted, as far as I know..)
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011List #1:
The first list has the photo of a Blue Ribbon banjo on it -- with the caption:
"Style A-1 'Blue Ribbon' Tenor Banjo". But in the list, at the top, it has:
"B & D BLUE BELL BANJOS". The 1/2-spun 'standard' "Bacon Blue Ribbon"
BECAME the "B&D Blue Bell".
List #2:
The 2nd list has the identical border and upper text. But it has 3 views of the
the soon-to-be-introduced Silver Bell No.3 -- with prices for the available styles.
List #3:
The 3rd list also has the same upper text.. but "Reg. U. S. Pat. Off." below the
Silver Bell line. The "Silver Bell" trademark was filed on Aug, 17. 1923 -- and
Registered on Jan. 15, 1924. So THIS list was not printed until AFTER 1/15/24.
(Plus a couple weeks for notification from the Pat. Office, and revisions by the printer.)
List #3 also had an expanded list of prices, for the Silver Bell models. It also adds
the caption: "Styles No.2 and No.3".
The reverse sides of the price lists are simply the complete listing of all the
available 'standard' models, plus strings, bridges, etc. The banjo models start
with Blue Ribbons on the 1st list... By the 2nd list, the Blue Ribbons are gone.
To keep their customers and dealers informed, Bacon DID mail-out the price lists
(at least lists #2 and #3) -- while struggling to make constant revisions to the
patchworked, Frankensteinian 1923-24 catalog.
(My father was an Industrial Arts teacher, and used to teach print shop. As a kid,
I learned how to set lead type -- by hand. The three price lists are simply multiple
changes to the same 'galley' or 'form lock-up'. From version, to version -- certain
letters have the same chips in the same spots. THAT is how I was able to determine
the correct order of the three lists, initially. Note the chip on the rectangle, 4th from
the bottom -- on the right-hand border of each price list.)
Scheidlmeier demonstrated the original Bacon Blue Ribbon, at the 1922 NYC Guild
Convention. AND he demonstrated the Silver Bell at the "Music Industries Chamber
of Commerce Convention,the 1st week of June 1923". (That's noted in the rare 1925
Bacon Catalog -- which has not been reprinted, as far as I know.)
Here is a clip from the extremely rare one-page (folded) brochure, which apparently
was handed-out at the April 1922 Guild Convention, in NYC -- for the introduction of
the original Bacon Blue Ribbons. It quotes both Mike Scheidlmeier, and Frank Bradbury
-- who had been able to test the early prototypes, and the final production models, a couple weeks BEFORE the Convention. (Bradbury ran Fred Bacon's second teaching studio, in Worcester, MA, after WWI.)
Source: The Bacon Transitional Banjos: 1920-1925. Edmund Britt ©2011Ed Britt
©1/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 10:57:18
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:21:20
PART 3
--------------
quote:
Originally posted by carlb
See Ed's earlier post for the pictures.
I'd only like to add that my Bacon Professional #3, serial # 9610, has the same
shape peg head as on the one on the left.
Carl --
It just so happens, that BOTH of those banjo are consecutively numbered -- #10xx8
on the left, and #10xx7 on the right. They are litter-mates. And... in a strange
cosmic coincidence -- they were BOTH offered for sale, by different major dealers,
simultaneously.
So any difference you see in the shape, is mostly the result of individual handwork.
They were probably made within 6 to 9 months of YOUR Bacon Prof. #9610. (I've
held the original celluloid pattern -- that Bacon used to mark the peghead shape,
before band-sawing the perimeter.)
Although... another issue in dating instruments, is:
... o "WHEN was the serial number stamped?
.......... A. Before finishing?
.......... B. At the time of assembly?
Bacon seems to have used BOTH scenarios, at various times:
... o "A" was used for custom instruments. And during busy periods -- where the
.......... banjos shipped, as fast as they were produced. The matching serials kept
.......... 'sets' of parts together
... o "B" allowed parts to be made ahead of time. They were selected, later, to fill a
.......... specific order -- and stamped during assembly with matching serial numbers.
It's possible that the #10xx8 neck -- with the "Different D" -- could have sat on a
shelf for months, after the revision to the "Regular D" peghead. Later, when they
needed a neck, in a hurry, to fill an order -- it might have been the only one available...
So, off it went.
quote:
Originally posted by carlb
Also, I don't know where I got it, there's no other info then what's entered in the
Bacon Professional Banjo Database:
#8750, Silver Bell #2, 5-string, Groton
which I previously posted:
banjohangout.org/archive/132612
I know that banjo VERY, VERY well! It belongs to a friend. I've had it apart, and
have inspected it very closely. Even so... it's still a mystery.
It's has:
... o a Silver Bell No.3-style(DLX) 5-string neck -- bound peghead, carved heel
... o a Super Blue Ribbon Style A-1-style rim -- with turned, snap-in resonator.
... o the rim and dowel have matching serial numbers
... o the dowel has ONLY the Serial and the Groton Stamp on it... NOTHING else.
........NO "Bacon", no "Blue Ribbon", no"B&D", no "Silver Bell", no "Super"... Na-da!
Unfortunately, the banjo was completely refinished sometime in it's past. Lacquer
over-spray got on the heel-cut, and joint of the dowel. So it's impossible to tell for
sure if the dowel was "slipped", or not. (No obvious signs -- like a drilled steam hole.)
HOWEVER... By #8500 the full-spun tonering BRs were already stamped "BACON
BLUE RIBBON" and "SUPERTONE" or "SUPER" on the dowel.
#8750 could be a factory re-necking of a Blue Ribbon Style A-1 rim -- with a Silver
Bell neck. (Or, possibly, it was an early "B&D Super Banjo" prototype rim.) The
peghead has the LATER, "Regular D".
Perhaps the original neck broke, or warped. Or the owner just wanted to upgrade to
the NEW style.
But there is also a very strong POSSIBILITY that #8750 is (what I call) a " What--if "
prototype... David Day seemed to have a 'thing' for using serial numbers ending with
"0", "00", or "000" for high-profile and sigificant banjos. (Exhibited banjos...)
PERHAPS David Day was thinking:
What if we also made a Silver Bell version with
the existing snap-in resonator -- as well as the new 'extended' resonator version?)
Ultimately... that version WAS actually made. But it was named the "B&D Super Banjo".
(The earliest B&D Super Banjo that Polle has in his list is #8615. Earliest B&D Super
Banjo that I've seen (so far) is #9064 -- which was upgraded, with an extended
resonator, and refinished.)
The "B&D Super Banjo" was introduced, at the April 1923 Guild Convention, in
Washington,DC -- along with the new upgraded version of the 1/2-spun Blue Ribbon
-- which was named the "B&D Blue Bell"...
(Now do you see WHY the 1923-24 catalog got SO screwed-up? With all the last-minute changes...)
Whew!
Best-
Ed Britt
©1/2011
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/21/2011 11:16:34
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/21/2011: 09:33:11
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
... Does anyone know when the Silver Bell got a
nineteen fret neck??
Yes.
Best-
Ed Britt
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/21/2011: 10:49:00
Ed
That's a lot of fine history!
Thanks!
PS I haven't seen the term "Lock up" used in a while! I never dealt much with lead type, but I used those old letterpress machines for lots of die cutting, foil stamping and embossing!
beezaboy - Posted - 01/21/2011: 11:51:28
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by beezaboy
... Does anyone know when the Silver Bell got a
nineteen fret neck??
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
Best-
Ed Britt
Mucho humorous.
But, always [
sometimes] take the high road.
So, here is the Vegaphone introduction in The Cadenza
vol. 30, no. 8, p. 2 (August 1923).
Vega beat Bacon to the punch with its "modern" 19 fret resonated
tenor banjo. Eat your heart out Mr. Day.
Edited by - beezaboy on 01/22/2011 03:51:21
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/21/2011: 22:36:45
John,
You´re mixing things - I think.
The "modern" long scale, the 19 frets and the extended resonator do not necessarily go together - they were introduced separately and at different times - for some of the major brands.
Scale
Most people distinguish between the original short scale at 19½-20½" and the "modern" long scale at 22-23".
quote:
In the paper I discuss the big three (Paramount, Vega & Bacon).
Do check, when each of these for the first time built/offered tenors with a long scale. You´ll be surprised, I guess.
Regarding the B&D Silver Bell tenor - this was, to the best of my knowledge, born as a "modern" long scale model. 17 frets - yes - but with a scale of 22"! The same scale as on the big-pot versions of the older models Blue Ribbon and Blue Bell.
19 fretsParamount - well, you know about this brand.
Bacon started increasing the long scale to 23" and the number of frets to 19 on some SB styles/versions/grades only ½ year after building the first "genuine" Silver Bells.
Vega - well, you´ll find out, I guess.
ResonatorThis is easy to tell - first came Paramount, then Bacon and finally Vega - I think.
I don´t know about other brands.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/22/2011 02:34:30
beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011: 04:45:24
quote:
Do check, when each of these for the first time built/offered tenors with a long scale. You´ll be surprised, I guess.
I hope not. I'm very serious about developing an accurate account.
Paramount 19 fret announcement - Music Trade Review Dec 1921.
Paramount 19 fret depicted - Music Trade Review July 1922.
Vegaphone 19 fret announcement - Cadenza August 1923 (see photo)
Vegaphone 19 fret depicted - Cadenza Sept 1923 (see photo)
Vegaphone 19 fret text - Cadenza Nov. 1923. (see photo)
First Silver Bell mentioned - Cadenza Dec. 1923.
First Silver Bell ad - Cadenza Feb 1924
BTW - My Gretsch Orchestrella inlaid "1924" (see photo)has 19 frets. I wonder if Gretsch produced a 19 fret tenor banjo before Bacon did?
rudykizuty - Posted - 01/22/2011: 09:30:53
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoLink
Polle:
I have a Silver Belle here that resides with my other banjos and I doubt that the serial number has ever been recorded in any database. I doubt that there is anything special about the banjo, but believe it to be all original. Would you like the serial number and photos of the banjo?
If you ask me, ALL B&D Silver Bells are special
especially if they are all original.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:11:07
John,
I´ll try again - as it seems, that you can´t get my point.
Firstly - Paramount and Vega came up with an all-in-one solution - long scale, 19 frets and an extended resonator. Paramount in 1921/22 and Vega in 1923/24.
Bacon didn´t - they took it in 4 steps - here´s a rough and preliminary overview - very much preliminary, as you can´t wait for me to finish my research and write MY essay:
1.step
Early/mid 1922 - 22" long scale on the big-pot versions of the existing Blue Ribbon and Blue Bell models.
2. step
Late 1922/Early 1923 - 22" long scale as standard on the Blue Ribbon, the Blue Bell and the new Super models. I don´t for now have any infos about the time of introdution for the extended add-on resonator for the Super.
3. step
Early/mid 1923 - 22" long scale and extended resonator on the new Silver Bell model.
4. step
Late 1923 - 23" and 19 frets as a standard or an optional version of the Silver Bell model. Production of the 22" and 17 fret version continues for 3-4 years - in spite of and including changes in design and construction.
Better?
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/22/2011 10:48:46
beezaboy - Posted - 01/22/2011: 11:20:51
quote:
Better?
Thank you!
Clearly, the date that Bacon began its 23" scale 19 fret
neck is a mystery to the uninitiated. I'll bet 99.99% of the
brand loyal and faithful B&D owners don't know when
the 19 fret neck Silver Bell was introduced.
And there is not consensus among the exprets.
I think Ed Britt might say the 19 fret necks went
on the Silver Bell in late 1925.
banjohangout.org/archive/152897Flaunoe thinks the 19 fret neck went on in late 1923
approximately 6 months (or so) after the round hole
Silver Bell was announced.
The Music Trade Review is silent except that in Feb 1925
Day gave a Silver Bell to Brooke Johns made for Prince of Wales.
The advertisement depicts a round hole 17 fret Silver Bell.
It is not until Sept 1926 that I can find a Bacon ad that refers
to the new, newer, newest Silver Bell with the f-hole flange.
That ad, unfortunately, depicted a plectrum banjo
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/22/2011: 20:54:05
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
... And there is not consensus among the exprets.
I think Ed Britt might say the 19 fret necks went
on the Silver Bell in late 1925.
banjohangout.org/archive/152897
...
Flaunoe thinks the 19 fret neck went on in late 1923
approximately 6 months (or so) after the round hole
Silver Bell was announced. ...
Hi Beeze --
Thanks for the reminder. I forgot I had written this, before:
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1 -- in ARCHIVED TOPIC:
B&D Silver Bell #2 Tenor on eBay: banjohangout.org/archive/152897
... Bacon didn't *officially* introduce their 19-fret models, until the 1926
catalog (prepared in late-1925) -- when they officially introduced the
No.4, No.5, and No.6 NPU. So, the initial (proto) models would have
been produced in late-'25 for photos.
That statement IS indeed correct.
But please notice the emphasis: "*officially* introduce".
In the OTHER topic:
"When Did B&D Silver Bell tenor get a 19 fret neck?"banjohangout.org/topic/197257/#2503474I left a clue for you:
... "IF you think about it.... There was a very SIGNIFICANT
introduction, of instruments, one particular year. " I was referring to the 1926 Catalog introduction of the NEW
19-fret, f-hole
flange, No.4 through No.6 models (above). And I also suggested to figure
backwards -- to the prototype development...
You found the answer. The earliest-known published example of a Silver Bell
No.4 -- that I've seen:
quote:
(However a No.4 model, purchased directly from Fred Bacon, was
mentioned in a Nov. 1924 letter, by Frank DiPrima. DiPrima apparently
played in an orchestra, with Bix Beiderbecke, during the summer of 1926.)
Were there 19-fret Bacons made BEFORE that?
Probably.... I just don't know of any. (But I also haven't paid much attention to
the19-fret Bacons -- because I'm looking for the EARLY Silver Bells.)
Perhaps Polle, or Gunter Amendt might know what happened to DiPrima's banjo.
However, in the 1926 catalog -- in the photo of the new engraved No.4, it appears
that the f-holes were stamped THROUGH the round holes, of an existing flange
(i.e. it seems to be a 'prototype'. The Soft Pedal is the early 'backwards'-mounted one.)
Good work!
Ed Britt
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 01/22/2011 21:38:17
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/22/2011: 23:09:36
Gents,
It´s all about math plus common sense. Besides many of the answers can be found in my general database. More answers can be found in my extended database - but this is not for your eyes to see - yet!
When dealing with the B&D/Bacon history some very important round figures will have to be known/remembered:
Production 1920-22 - 4,000
Production 1923-24 - 6,000
Production 1925-26 - 7,000
Production 1927-29 - 6,200
Production 1930-33 - 5,200
Production 1934-39 - 2,300
This sets the serial numbers at the start of the following years to:
1923 - 9000
1925 - 15000
1927 - 22000
1930 - 28200
1934 - 33400
1940 - 35700
I have documentations for most of these numbers/figures.
Regarding the earliest documented SB #4 - this has SN 13339 - do use your math skills - you´ll find, that it will most likely have been built mid 1924.
The earliest documented SB #6 - which is also engraved - has SN 12981 - this puts it 1-2 months earlier.
Conclusion - Bacon hired/contracted with a metal engraver early 1924!
The #4 above has a round hole flange - the DiPrima example has double punched holes (F on basis of round) - maybe this will put the DiPrima a little later - who knows/cares - it will most likely also have been built mid 1924 - this fits the mentioned november letter very well.
As said - it´s all about math and common sense!
I´m in the process documenting the earliest 19 fret SB´s - for now I can - with the use of these skills, the round figures above and the SN´s - set the date for their production to late 1923.
BTW - the latest documented 17 fret SB has SN 20196 - which puts it to mid 1926 - meaning that Bacon manufactured both a 17 and a 19 fret version for 3-4 years. This fact is well documented in my extended database. There was obviously a demand for both versions in the mid 20s.
I think, that a lot of the previous confusion regarding Bacon´s introduction of 19 fret tenors is caused by this fact - some experts may have met/seen only/mostly the 17 fret SB version from this period.
Polle
Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 01/23/2011 03:11:45
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 01/23/2011: 07:49:06
Hi Polle --
I'm in general agreement with your post -- and the numbers you present.
Perhaps a few minor quibbles, here and there... but nothing important.
Since I'm involved in product design and development; I tend to separate
the 'Development and Prototype' phase(s), from the 'Introduction and
Production' phases.
A small handful of 'experimental prototypes' can skew the general
'production' serial range -- and the dateline. ('Experimental prototypes'
usually don't match the specs of the 'initial production run'-- and can be
made 3 to 9 months BEFORE introduction)
I tend to focus on the 'oddities' -- which can provide clues to the company's
'movement' between phases, and periods. They are often the experimental
"What--if?" banjos...
Other collectors and historians will focus on banjos made to 'catalog specs' --
or the high-end custom, and celebrity banjos.
We all look at it from slightly different angles...
Best-
Ed Britt
searchingforbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2011: 07:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by fordman24t
Serial number is 9654
cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-BACON-AND...a62763060
Stan
You're photo no longer shows through. Wish I could see a photo of this one. I'm trying to trace the whereabouts of one our family used to own with hopes of repurchasing it.
searchingforbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2011: 07:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Uh oh.
This ebay banjo is the earliest Silver Bell serial number in the database.
Polle has Silver Bell banjos dated 1922?
Can't be. The Silver Bell was not introduced until 1923.
Hi Beeze --
It would be the earliest Silver Bell in Polle's database. But NOT the 'earliest-known'
SB -- by quite a few. My "target" for the earliest Silver Bell has been around #9000
for over 10 years.
On Polle's behalf... he's been patiently waiting, for over a year, for ME to pass some
Silver Bell info to him. I told him I'd do that after my Bacon presentation to the
Collectors Gathering, in Rochester, last year.
(Polle WILL get the info... but it won't happen for a while. I'm quite busy this month,
moving my office.)
I've seen 6 Silver Bells in the #9000 range. Earliest I have seen, so far, is #91xx. Four
of them have been seriously modified, and upgraded with different necks, resonators,
flanges, soft pedals, etc.
The Ebay banjo is mostly original, except for the resonator back. (The resonator SHOULD
be the solid "turned"-back type.)
The ebay SB also has a rare early feature, that I call the "Different D" peghead -- shown
below left. The "Regular D" peghead is at right:
The Different D is the earliest design, seen in the earliest Silver Bell catalog photo -- and
the "B" and the "D" MATCH. They are the same 'font'. (But some of those "Different D"
peghead veneers were used on later banjos -- around 10xxx. Perhaps due to a parts shortage.)
The Regular D -- which is the TYPICAL peghead, is actually a re-design... Probably to make
it look similar to the fancy Spencerian Script "D" -- that David Day used for his signature.
The early 9xxx Silver Bells all use ONLY 2 resonator screws. One on each side. And the
resonator flange has small 1/4" dia. holes. The earliest catalog photo, and the patent drawing,
shows grommets used to 'dress-off' the flange holes. But I've never seen an actual photo of
that detail anywhere. (There were 3/8" dia holes, and 1/2" holes used in later models, BEFORE
the 'f-hole' flange was introduced.)
One other little detail, used on the earliest Silver Bells -- they have a little 'fleur de lis' inlaid
at the 5th fret.
quote:
Ed Britt says:
Scheidlmeier INTRODUCED the B&D Silver Bell, to the music world -- at a Music Trades
show, in Chicago, the first week of June, 1923. ...
... My research in The Cadenza shows the first advertisements for
the Silver Bell to be fall 1923.
Does the database need surgery?
Just a touch... The earliest Silver Bell prototypes would probably have been made in very
late-1922, and in early-1923. So the early-#90xx (presumed) range might have been
made in late '22. Revisions, in the early-91xx range, would have been made in early-1923.
But that's still ALL presumptive. No "hard" documentation has shown up, to connect specific
early SB's serials with a specific date.
The Silver Bell was probably supposed to be introduced at the 1923 Spring Guild show, but
wasn't ready in time. So they were introduced at the June show in Chicago. But that June
date was less than 9 months after David Day walked in the door. (The Silver Bell patent wasn't
filed until 11/23/23. And it took FOUR years to have it granted -- on 12/20/27.)
Best-
Ed Britt
©1/2011
There is a Silver Bell #1 for sale on eBay and the seller wants $1,200 or so will take best offer. It has some pitting and a couple of replaced parts. This is definitely not one of the first Silver Bells made. I grew up with one in the house that the owner of said had purchased at the factory in Groton sometime in the twenties. Nickel plating, very heavy, nice sound, pride and joy, always in the case except when being played. Head never replaced except around 1980 when unscrupulous music store owner offered unaware family member to "replace that old dirty head with a brand new one for only $15" and kept the old one much to the original owner's chagrin, though I admit he was definitely surprised as expected just not in a pleasant way. Anyway when I search on eBay for a replacement I get the feeling that some are close to the one we lost and some are not just by viewing the photos emotionally with memory ques. I love seeing these details that you posted. I want to buy one that feels like the same one. Any tips?
searchingforbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2011: 07:52:22
Also wondering if I were to start collecting every one that I can get my budget on trying to find the exact one that feels like the right replacement, how low of a price would I have to pay to definitely be able to get my money back out of each one as I resell the ones that aren't quite right?
searchingforbanjo - Posted - 01/29/2011: 08:49:48
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
John,
quote:
Does the database need surgery?
No - it doesn´t! It gets a lot of "intakes" and math treatment on a daily basis - that´s sufficient!
Besides - what´s the difference between 1923 and 1922? 1 year? No - the difference is between 1 and 12 months! With an average of 6 months!
+/- 6 months ~ ½ year is an ultimative accuracy for a database of this sort. However I´m constantly trying getting it even more accurate.
Todays revision contains an adaption of Mr. Day´s employment - I have been working on this for some days.
It also contains an adjustment of the slopes for the production curve. The manufacturing dates in the database are based on this curve - and the curve itself is based on a large number of shipping/sales dates between 1925 and 1940.
The revised curve shows, that the maximum production rate is to be found in 1925 - not 1927/28 as supposed till now.
Do notice, that the stock crash late 1929 seems not to have caused a sudden drop in production rate - au contraire - besides the annual production at that time had already dropped to only appr. 50% of the 1925 production.
Polle
The database is the greatest thing really. I had no idea how to tell these things apart in the least and now I have been able to avoid purchasing a 1968 Gretsch which was advertised as a 1930s Gretsch. It's a great database and it does advertise that people should mail in any corrections or updates. The one that our family member sold out of need cheaply was purchased in person at the factory in Groton. I'm wondering if they were sold to people in person at the factory prior to having been advertised publicly. Maybe the people in the town of Groton and surrounding areas were used as a test market prior to advertising? Far fetched I guess maybe but...? Is there any way that people are now keeping track of serial numbers purchased and who owns them now?
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/29/2011: 09:26:27
Sue,
quote:
Maybe the people in the town of Groton and surrounding areas were used as a test market prior to advertising?
I do have some reports about local buys - inclusive of these instruments full proveniens. However wether the buyers were test pilots - I don´t think so. Bacon normally used top-pro-players for testing their new creations.
I do also have many reports about players elsewhere in US, that ordered their banjos directly from the Bacon company - maybe because they couldn´t buy them in local music stores.
Polle
searchingforbanjo - Posted - 01/31/2011: 17:35:25
Interesting. Hmmm. I have to dig out the old photo and zoom in for details. Guess people collect bushels full of these. I might soon become on of them. We have one from 1906 from Bacon not a silver bell.
