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NYCJazz - Posted - 07/15/2009: 13:38:57
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...220452600099
Looks similar to John Balch's #2 without the engraving.
LOOKS like it's an archtop tone ring, but I think it's just markings from the head being on an archtop BEFORE it was put on this one? The head on my #3 has a wear ring from an archtop tone ring.
I hope that's not water damage, and no Oettenger tailpiece!
Nathan
Jazz makes an art of vulgarity; is monotonous; pornographic, and often outrageously funny; and is replete with intellectual and cultural pretensions.
-Ernest Bacon
diarmaid - Posted - 07/15/2009: 14:13:40
looks sweet! i pretty much always prefer the models with ebony or rosewood fingerboards and headstocks...irrespective of brand..that looks like a great machine...if i had a couple of thosand spare dollars i'd bid on it...hard to tell what kind of tonering is in it, the neck might be a problem iof its bowed
jbalch - Posted - 07/16/2009: 05:42:47
EbaY prices on B&D banjos have been depressed lately. This might be bought at a good price...and a great project.
I wonder about the tone ring. Do you think the head could have been re-used from another archtop banjo? From the looks of that instrument, I'd expect it to have a regular (type II) Silver Bell ring.
www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/16/2009: 08:30:14
John--
Glad you pointed-out the "archtop" head. As usual, it would be
nice to see photos of the interior -- to verify the tone ring. (And the
serial numbers!)
Basically, it appears mostly original -- except for the head.
Unfortunately, the Oettinger tailpiece is also missing. It would have
been original during this period.
It shows the Soft Pedal oriented towards the back -- the way it
was first depicted in the early photos. (Later, the typical orientation
was facing forward.)
That's a very nice banjo -- once it gets cleaned-up. (Although the
silver-plating is hard to maintain.)
I have an early Silver Bell "Special" SN:10228 -- which is basically the
same banjo, with carved heel -- but it's nickel-plated.
That particular model was never cataloged... but I have seen a few others.
I refer to it as a "No1. Special" (Since the carved heel is the "special"
option.)
Since it's a year or two earlier (late-'23 - early-'24) -- it has:
. . .o the early small 1/4"-dia. round flange holes
. . .o the "turned-back"(or "beaded-back") resonator
. . .o It's PRE-geared pegs
. . .o It's PRE-Soft Pedal
. . .o It's PRE-Oettinger -- it has a two-tab Presto tailpiece, as
. . . . . . original equipment.
. . .o It has a 17-fret neck, with a 22" scale.
Bacon didn't *officially* introduce their 19-fret models, until the 1926
catalog (prepared in late-1925) -- when they officially introduced the
No.4, No.5, and No.6 NPU. So, the initial (proto) models would have
been produced in late-'25 for photos.
(However a No.4 model, purchased directly from Fred Bacon, was
mentioned in a Nov. 1924 letter, by Frank DiPrima. DiPrima apparently
played in an orchestra, with Bix Beiderbecke, during the summer of 1926.)
Best--
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/16/2009 09:32:27
NYCJazz - Posted - 07/17/2009: 06:30:24
quote:
Originally posted by BrittDLD1
John--
It shows the Soft Pedal oriented towards the back -- the way it
was first depicted in the early photos. (Later, the typical orientation
was facing forward.)
Best--
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
I didn't notice that. I have my soft pedal set up that way. It was the way Roy Smeck had it set up on his SBs. I had no idea that any of them came from the factory that way.
Nathan
Jazz makes an art of vulgarity; is monotonous; pornographic, and often outrageously funny; and is replete with intellectual and cultural pretensions.
-Ernest Bacon
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/17/2009: 16:55:39
quote:
Originally posted by jims38134
Nathan, check out p 7 of this link:
http://www.acousticmusic.org/userfi...0Catalog.pdf
Jim
Hi Jim -
That's actually an early-1930's slim catalog.
The photo of the No.4, (and the No.6) came from the 1926 Catalog --
and shows the Soft Pedal mounted facing the back. As does the shot
of the Montana No.7 (circa '27)
The shots of the the No.3 (circa '28? ) and the Sultana (circa '29-30).
show the Soft Pedal facing forwards.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
jims38134 - Posted - 07/17/2009: 18:58:51
So, looks like they could have come either way from the factory.....
jbalch - Posted - 07/18/2009: 08:10:00
Correct me if I'm wrong...but all that changes is the direction and location of the pedal. The pedal is just attached to a different hook...and oriented in the opposite direction.
But, the hole in the rim (for the rod) and the internal mechanism are located the same. Is that right?
www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch
rudykizuty - Posted - 07/18/2009: 08:17:39
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
Correct me if I'm wrong...but all that changes is the direction and location of the pedal. The pedal is just attached to a different hook...and oriented in the opposite direction.
But, the hole in the rim (for the rod) and the internal mechanism are located the same. Is that right?
www.johnbalchmusic.com
www.myspace.com/johnbalch
Yep. There's just one hole in the rim.
Anthony Herner
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/18/2009: 10:11:30
My only point is that the "preferred" orientation of the Soft Pedal CHANGED,
over time.
When introduced -- the orientation was toward the back. Within a few years
(and right through to today) the "preferred" orientation changed toward the
front.
To me... this points to some subtle difference occurring in the playing style
of the period -- or in the operational use of the Soft Pedal. Perhaps there was
a difference in the types of "effects" desired. For instance: a simple pianissimo
muted effect -- versus a jazzy "wah-wah" "whammy-bar" effect, etc.
Remember -- I'm NOT a 4-string JAZZ PLAYER. I study the history, physical
design, development, and evolution of the Bacon Banjos. So, I just observe
this stuff, and ask questions to those who DO play. (Or to those who have
knowledge of historical playing styles.)
Interestingly, the EARLIEST mute I ever came across, on a B&D banjo, was
on a custom round-hole 17-fret Silver Bell -- #126xx.
It was made for Caddie Carr, a student of Mike Scheidlmeier. She was a
vaudeville performer, under contract with the Schubert Theater group -- and
is pictured in the "B&D Silver Bell Banjo Family" endorser album/catalog.
(Two versions of that have been reprinted -- 1928, and 1929-30.)
I believe the odd "mute" on her banjo was actually an early prototype of the
Soft Pedal. It had a semi-spherical, mushroom-shaped plunger, in place of
the spoon-shaped lever. The interior linkages looked very similar to the standard
Soft-Pedal linkages. (But I haven't really studied the evolution of the Soft Pedal,
in any great detail.)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/18/2009 10:20:37
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/18/2009: 20:29:14
Hi Jim --
But note the date that the Patent was first filed: May 31, 1928.
That's very late to be filing, on an idea which had already been
introduced to the public, 3-1/2 years earlier...
What intrigues me is:
1. WHY did Bacon and Day start out the other way?
(You don't create a high-end, carved and engraved No.4 -- without
putting some careful thought into its "innovative" features. I can
guarantee it was shown to many professional players, well before it
was published in a catalog....)
2. What caused them to reverse it?
I'd love to know more about some of the up-and-coming "hot-shot"
players from 1925 to 1929. How, and why, did the playing techniques
differ from the earlier jazz players of 1915 to 1925?
This wasn't just some simple mechanical issue... This change was due
to HOW the Soft Pedal was used, by players -- AFTER its initial intro-
duction. Its USE somehow evolved in a different direction than the
inventors foresaw.
Another interesting aspect is that the Soft Pedal seems to be the most
successful knee-mute -- by far -- out of the various contenders offered
by other companies. And still reproduced today.
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/18/2009 20:31:23
jims38134 - Posted - 07/18/2009: 21:46:59
Ed,
Interesting analysis/thoughts (as usual). I've never tried one pointed down (ala Roy Smeck's or Nathan's). Mine are all pointed "up". I'd like to try one the other way sometime. Maybe if I get some spare time I'll switch one of mine....
Jim
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/19/2009: 01:13:28
Ed & Others,
During those 3½ years the soft pedal mute was modified twice.
The patent filed mute is the 3dr version.
The 1st version does not have a direct link between the pedal and the mute itself. The mute pressure on the head is activated by an adjustable spring coil. That way the only function is mute on or off - no matter how much pressure you put on the pedal.
The 2nd and 3dr versions have a direct link - beside muting you can on these versions add vibrato to the muted sound by increasing/decreasing the pressure on the pedal.
A very difficult technique.
Regarding the direction of the pedal - I guess, that the pedal was pointed down in the beginning. Later - as the mute was modified - someone found out, that the double function was better controlled by having the pedal pointing up.
Kindly regards
Polle
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/19/2009: 05:31:52
PS!
For those of you, who don´t really know how a soft mute can be used in a spectacular way - watch this famous video - the non-smiling gent in the middle is Tom Stuip - a great jazz banjo player from Holland and a virtuos "muter" - LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF_utd2QEZw
Regards
Polle
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/19/2009: 06:07:33
quote:
Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe
Ed & Others,
... The 1st version ... the only function is mute on or off - no matter how much pressure you put on the pedal.
The 2nd and 3dr versions have a direct link - beside muting you can on these versions add vibrato to the muted sound by increasing/decreasing the pressure on the pedal. A very difficult technique.
Regarding the direction of the pedal - I guess, ... that the double function was better controlled by having the pedal pointing up.
Hi Polle--
THANKS!
That is exactly the type of functional, and stylistic change I was looking for.
And it's what I was referring to, when I suggested the possibilities of
"Pianissimo" (on-or-off only) -- versus "Wah-wah" (variable pressure).
That's a significant change in the way the player would use the Soft Pedal,
and the type of "effects" they could produce with it.
See... Ya learn something every day on the BHO!
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
NYCJazz - Posted - 07/21/2009: 09:10:06
I got to meet & jam with Tom Stuip at the 2008 Early Spring Banjo Fling.
He was playing an Epiphone with a Soft Pedal mute installed!
BTW- I believe that Epiphone was the heaviest banjo I've ever held!
Nathan
Jazz makes an art of vulgarity; is monotonous; pornographic, and often outrageously funny; and is replete with intellectual and cultural pretensions.
-Ernest Bacon
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/21/2009: 10:06:42
Nathan,
Correct about the Epiphone - but try "lifting" a Deering GDL banjo - I think, that this fantastic sounding banjo beats everything regarding weight!
Kindly regards
Polle
*** Polle Flaunoe endorse Late 20s B&D Silver Bell #6 Ne Plus Ultra Tenor Banjos, CARLSBERG Beer ad Libitum plus COHIBA # IV and TROPENSCHATZ Corona Cigars ***
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/21/2009: 10:22:19
quote:
Originally posted by NYCJazz
... BTW- I believe that Epiphone was the heaviest banjo I've ever held!
Nathan --
You ought to try a Boulder-made 1965-66 ODE Style F!
They were based on the 1920s Epiphone design...
Rosewood neck and resonator, with heavy cast-brass flange, and
cast flathead tonering. (Although they also offered an archtop version
of the Epiphone/Paramount-style "rod-on-plates" tonering.)
Here's a photo of Scooter Muse's ODE 5-string:
You can see LARGER pix, and MORE pix -- here:
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...albumid=1836Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 07/22/2009 18:47:10
NYCJazz - Posted - 07/22/2009: 12:40:47
If that had been a plectrum, I'd be in there bidding!
Nathan
Jazz makes an art of vulgarity; is monotonous; pornographic, and often outrageously funny; and is replete with intellectual and cultural pretensions.
-Ernest Bacon
rudykizuty - Posted - 07/22/2009: 16:35:52
"it can not be imported to Japan due to restrictions on certain woods"
Anyone know what that's all about?
Anthony Herner
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have to practice even to be lousy -- Jack Benny
BrittDLD1 - Posted - 07/22/2009: 18:45:40
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
The #2 sold for $1025. Wow...seems like a very good buy.
WOW! It's worth twice that. All it really needs is some cleaning...
(And a new case...)
Best-
Ed Britt
••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 07/22/2009: 23:49:25
So much for selectivity. The seller would only sell to the 48 lower US states.
I was prepared to bid up to $1,700 for the Lady - had the original tailpiece and armrest been present, I would have gone up to $2,000.
Regards
Polle
