UNYBP - Posted - 06/19/2010:  05:29:44

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If the only reason youre not picking up a fiddle is because you're worried it will take to long to get decent at it then I think you should get a fiddle. All that really matters is if you enjoy trying to get good at it. It's the journey not the finish line that counts.

(Absolutley not trying to sound preachy here)

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 06/19/2010:  05:46:48

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Almost 2 months into fiddle playing now, I appeared with a fiddle in public at a swing fiddle workshop last night at the Albuquerque Folk Festival.

The instructor had won Winfield many years ago - nice lady by the name of Gretchen VanHouten - the atmosphere was very casual. There were about 8 fiddles present. One fellow had recently returned from swing fiddle camp, and he was the most experienced swing player, but others were all folks I've seen around town at various functions, playing fiddle while I played banjo.

Anyway, not being very shy, or too dumb to know better, I took out my fiddle and joined in - and guess what? Turns out I have a very good ear for improvising and playing swing fiddle - probably it was more that I couldn't hit the notes I wanted to hit, and anyway, long story short, JUST DO IT! And if you screw up, who cares? You'll get there eventually.

The fellow who thinks age is a negative factor for starting - trust me - I'm no youngster and I intend to keep at it - it is really a lot of fun. This adventure began because my husband wanted to go to a music camp, and Rocky Mtn Fiddle Camp was the closest and easiest destination (there is guitar and manolin, but no banjo this year)....so I started to play the fiddle I inherited from a friend's daughter who recently was killed in an auto crash. When I play, I always remember this young lady (age 39).

I like the idea of a fiddle support group for banjo players. Is there something like that already on the Fiddle Hangout, though? If not, I vote to start one right here where we all started because we play the banjo and now are moving on.

Penel - Posted - 06/19/2010:  07:36:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by BANJOJUDY


I like the idea of a fiddle support group for banjo players. Is there something like that already on the Fiddle Hangout, though? If not, I vote to start one right here where we all started because we play the banjo and now are moving on.

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I'm not understanding why some banjo playing folks would want a separate ghetto for themselves over on Fiddle Hangout.

Go over there and you'll discover many there already play banjo
and guitar,
and mandolin,
and piano,
and you name it.

You'll also recognize a lot of people from here.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 06/19/2010:  07:42:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penel

quote:

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Originally posted by BANJOJUDY


I like the idea of a fiddle support group for banjo players. Is there something like that already on the Fiddle Hangout, though? If not, I vote to start one right here where we all started because we play the banjo and now are moving on.

---

I'm not understanding why some banjo playing folks would want a separate ghetto for themselves over on Fiddle Hangout.

Go over there and you'll discover many there already play banjo
and guitar,
and mandolin,
and piano,
and you name it.

You'll also recognize a lot of people from here.

---

The reasons to start an "Evolving To Playing The Fiddle From a Banjo Player's Perspective" support group would be because we would all be coming from the same place - in other words, starting with banjo and going to fiddle instead of starting from something else or playing fiddle first and then going to banjo.

I guess I should check out the Fiddle Hangout more thoroughly and see what threads and topics are popular or exist there. I was hoping to keep my music activities all at one site, and The Banjo Hangout is such a good one.....so how do the rest of you feel?

Should we all go to the Fiddle Hangout and see if an "evolving" topic exists, and if not, just start one there?

Penel - Posted - 06/19/2010:  08:38:23

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If anything, I've seen a bigger division between those who play Bluegrass styles of banjo and those who play the more Old Timey styles than fiddlers who do or don't play banjo.

My thoughts on it are that those BG folks who take up fiddle quickly discover that on the surface many of the older (than BG) styles of music are usually more approachable for beginner fiddlers (on the surface ).



The only difficulty I've had maintaining my grasp of banjo while delving deeper into fiddle has been when studying styles of music that never had banjos in them while they were evolving to what they are now,

but then, Michael Miles and Ken Perlman have removed that from my list of excuses.

stigandr5 - Posted - 06/20/2010:  06:02:34

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I bought a fiddle last summer but haven't gotten around to improving my playing on it any. It has made me better at "feeling" where notes are on a banjo neck though.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 06/20/2010:  09:27:02

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First impressions after playing a few days. Here are some of the most notable ways that learning the fiddle helps with playing the banjo; you can begin (at last) to understand the special mechanics of fiddle tunes, such as, how the Keys (G, A, D) work differently; you learn the tunes for real- their melodies, lilts, and timings; you can understand what the fiddler is doing when you watch them (handy during jams!); you finally learn the differences between hoedowns, reels, and hornpipes, etc. Basically, I think it helps the banjo player understand "Old Time Music" in general. Some things are revealed to the fiddler who can read music, that are not revealed to the banjo player who only reads tableture.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 06/20/2010:  10:11:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dock Jekel

First impressions after playing a few days. Here are some of the most notable ways that learning the fiddle helps with playing the banjo; you can begin (at last) to understand the special mechanics of fiddle tunes, such as, how the Keys (G, A, D) work differently; you learn the tunes for real- their melodies, lilts, and timings; you can understand what the fiddler is doing when you watch them (handy during jams!); you finally learn the differences between hoedowns, reels, and hornpipes, etc. Basically, I think it helps the banjo player understand "Old Time Music" in general. Some things are revealed to the fiddler who can read music, that are not revealed to the banjo player who only reads tablature.

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AND you can play jigs, too! The fiddle opens up all musical avenues for the player - heck I even learned to read notes, and yesterday, figured out what ABC notation is all about - that is really cool stuff.

Went to 4 fiddle workshops at the Albuquerque Folk Festival - I believe there were 5, but the 99 degree heat dictated I find a cool spot during # 5 - anyway, I went to these:

1) Swing Fiddle and Improv
2) Klezmer
3) Old Time
4) Fiddle to the Next Level

The 5th was Cajun style. So many styles, and so much fun. The Old Time presentation was really a good one. We all played Sally in the Garden and there were double stops in part of it - and I was having way too much fun. Then we tacked the Mark Simo's tune, New Valley Forge - loaded with double stops.

Judy

u k sandra - Posted - 06/20/2010:  11:01:41

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I`ve been taking fiddle lessons once a week since January and I love it. Its a mixed class of about 10 and great fun. We started off as Beginners Fiddle, then Fresh New Fiddles and next term we`ll be Four Finger Fiddles. I`ve learnt a lot. I`m never going to be very good, I`m not going to live that long but I`m going to have a good time trying. I`m also on the Fiddle Hangout. If you want to be really depressed watch a young lad called Adam Larky on You Tube playing A Maidens Prayer. It made me want to give up.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 06/20/2010:  12:39:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by u k sandra

I`ve been taking fiddle lessons once a week since January and I love it. Its a mixed class of about 10 and great fun. We started off as Beginners Fiddle, then Fresh New Fiddles and next term we`ll be Four Finger Fiddles. I`ve learnt a lot. I`m never going to be very good, I`m not going to live that long but I`m going to have a good time trying. I`m also on the Fiddle Hangout. If you want to be really depressed watch a young lad called Adam Larky on You Tube playing A Maidens Prayer. It made me want to give up.

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Isn't he adorable? I stumbled upon him a few months ago - what a great kid, and what a talent.

HolyGrass - Posted - 06/20/2010:  17:27:07

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i'm on the fiddle hangout =)

ronwalker49 - Posted - 06/20/2010:  17:50:30

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Me too...Here is one of me playing down younder (yrs ago) back when I used to be faster....

kingfisher500 - Posted - 06/21/2010:  07:59:17

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I took the plunge an bought a violin, which I will pick up from the seller in about two weeks. I will probably have to practice while my wife is out of the house, and may never learn how to play, but I hope that I have some fun. If it improves my banjo playing that would be a big plus.

I have registered on the fiddle hangout, but don't intend to do any postings there until I begin the learning process. It is an interesting site and many of the folks on Banjo Hangout are there as well. It should easily support a thread to serve as a support group for banjo players learning violin.

I came across a very funny thread on fiddle hangout, "How Best to Attack Banjo Hangout?" A tongue-in-cheek thread about how to post messages to this site that will get members fighting with each other. I thought we were doing pretty well on our own.

In any case, as far as the place for the support group, I think that this thread as related to whether learning fiddle helps with playing the banjo, belongs here, but that a support group for banjo players that deals with learning fiddle, belongs on the fiddle hangout. I will, however, take any help I can get wherever I can get it.

Tessellater - Posted - 06/21/2010:  08:20:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by kingfisher500

I came across a very funny thread on fiddle hangout, "How Best to Attack Banjo Hangout?" A tongue-in-cheek thread about how to post messages to this site that will get members fighting with each other. I thought we were doing pretty well on our own.

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LOL. Funny. If you'd like to lob a bomb backover there go start talking about how "directional pattern bowing is a crutch used to avoid instrument mastery". Just go say that. Go enjoy.

gailg64 - Posted - 06/21/2010:  08:29:50

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Count me as another Banjo Hangout-er who's also on the Fiddle Hangout. This is "round two" for me, after a nearly 2 decade layoff. Back in the 70s I played the role of idiot "sawyer" (a female "Gid"!) in a multi-fiddle band, always subservient to louder, better fiddlers. Consequently, there's a certain amount of unlearning that has had to happen, but I'm having fun trying to grasp some of the detail I'd missed before & a huge bonus is that my clawhammering husband & I can now have fiddle & banjo music at home again.

At this age, I'll never get fiddle-contest-good but as that old saying goes "the forest would be a quiet place if only the best bird sang."
GG



u

quote:

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Originally posted by kingfisher500

I took the plunge an bought a violin, which I will pick up from the seller in about two weeks. I will probably have to practice while my wife is out of the house, and may never learn how to play, but I hope that I have some fun. If it improves my banjo playing that would be a big plus.

I have registered on the fiddle hangout, but don't intend to do any postings there until I begin the learning process. It is an interesting site and many of the folks on Banjo Hangout are there as well. It should easily support a thread to serve as a support group for banjo players learning violin.

I came across a very funny thread on fiddle hangout, "How Best to Attack Banjo Hangout?" A tongue-in-cheek thread about how to post messages to this site that will get members fighting with each other. I thought we were doing pretty well on our own.

In any case, as far as the place for the support group, I think that this thread as related to whether learning fiddle helps with playing the banjo, belongs here, but that a support group for banjo players that deals with learning fiddle, belongs on the fiddle hangout. I will, however, take any help I can get wherever I can get it.

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ronwalker49 - Posted - 06/21/2010:  09:46:30

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LOL. Funny. If you'd like to lob a bomb backover there go start talking about how "directional pattern bowing is a crutch used to avoid instrument mastery". Just go say that. Go enjoy.


I wouldn't call it a crutch, just another tool...

Tessellater - Posted - 06/21/2010:  10:04:57

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see!

Couchie - Posted - 06/23/2010:  06:06:29

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ha ha ha

kingfisher500 - Posted - 06/23/2010:  07:02:46

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No bomb dropping by me on either hangout. I just want to follow Dan's advice and play nice.

Tessellater - Posted - 06/23/2010:  07:07:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by kingfisher500

No bomb dropping by me on either hangout. I just want to follow Dan's advice and play nice.

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I don't know. You should have seen dan smacking down when some of them start on their "special boutique you decide" approach to being in tune. it's funny.

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Edited by - Tessellater on 06/23/2010 07:08:16

majikgator - Posted - 06/23/2010:  11:25:48

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i am also on the Fiddle Hangout even though the fiddle is the Devil's instrument (just kidding, i am anyway)

HolyGrass - Posted - 06/28/2010:  12:45:52

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i figured out a pretty sweet fiddle tune today
let me know what y'all think



figuring this out on the banjo really makes me want to build a 6 string banjo (not the guitar style though) like a 5 string, but with an added bass string, to match the fiddle.

Swing Low

jmod - Posted - 06/29/2010:  07:38:18

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Hey all,

Just curious, but what are some of the methods you are going about learning the fiddle? Sight-reading? Purely by ear? As someone who's only experience with a fiddle is making a sound that resembles the torturing of a thousand cats, I am interested to hear how people initially picked up the fiddle.

coelhoe - Posted - 06/29/2010:  09:02:24

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Instead of re-inventing the wheel, just go over to the FHO and do a search on any of the beginner's topics: books, dvd's, methods, instruments, bowing, teaching, reading, ear training, classical vs. trad technique, repertoire, etc.

Large threads on all of these. Even some on playing fiddle with banjos.

g-hog - Posted - 06/29/2010:  11:56:06

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Well this has been interesting to follow... I was gonna say if you wonder how your taking up fiddle will affect your banjo playing, go ask at fiddle hangout!!!

Ronwalker, your Down Yonder mp3 was really nice... thanks for linking it!

I think someone said that they kept certain tunes for banjo and others for fiddle... and that's kind of what I've been doing as a new fiddle "player," won't even call myself that without quotations yet... LOL! More like fiddle rat-chaser... but I like to keep things separated so I know I'm on fiddle when I'm on fiddle, and know I'm on banjo when I'm on banjo.

Yeah, it's funny that the threads that seem to get out of hand here are dropthumb and tab... and over there it's bowing styles and being in tune. LOL... some of the most fascinating things, in my mind, about the instruments, and probably most people would agree, otherwise not get so wound up over these things.

I've enjoyed topics at fiddle hangout because it seems to me that fiddlers are usually big talkers... they'll get into just anything anybody brings up... and I think that's just fiddle... that's why it has such weird reputations and maybe that's what draws big talkers to that instrument!

Anyway... will it affect your playing, and how? I'd ask over at FHO... should make some interesting discussion.

Tessellater - Posted - 06/29/2010:  12:02:34

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I'd say to learn fiddle you at least need to know how to construct a scale first. For fiddle i think you need a litte more theory up front, just enought to play the scale of your key signature so you can check your intonation.

the step pattern

whole
whole
half
whole
whole
whole
half

Then pick out a tune from you know. Something easy you can hum like twinkle twinkle little stars. now play it over and over until it's smooth as glass and in tune and the most beautiful version of twinkle twinkle litte stars you can play.

repeat with new tunes as desired. learn from both notation and ear.

This is my mini course.

abbey - Posted - 09/14/2010:  19:44:55

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I've been thinking about this thread lately because it pushed me over the edge into finally trying fiddle--and I LOVE it!

It has been nearly three months now. Yes, it sounded horribly screechy at first, but it is so satisfying to play, and I have made steady progress. I have even been able to play at the slow jam the past couple of months---totally fun!

So if anyone out there is still just thinking about it; I say give it a try.

biscuit joiner - Posted - 09/15/2010:  09:38:55

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I had the same experience, 2-3 months ago. Like a lot of others have said--give it a try if you're evenly mildly interested. 1/2 hour spent at the FHO will give you enough info to find your first fiddle, then you just have to be diligent and remember to practice banjo, too.

banjered - Posted - 09/16/2010:  05:47:53

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Just read this 4 page thread.

Banjo Judy says, "Nothing is getting done around this house. The yard is neglected. THe cleaning is neglected. Work is neglected. Even the banjos are being neglected.

The only thing that matters is the fiddle.

It is the most totally addictive thing I've ever encountered. "

I LOVE the fiddle! But I have never drawn a bow across strings. Why? Because I know I'd be just like Judy only worse! Food, work, friends...who cares....nothing matters but the fiddle.... I am already driving the wife nuts with my banjo "playing." Taking up the fiddle would absolutely put her in the asylum. Me, I wouldn't notice...I'd be in heaven. So I am working hard on saving me from myself, but it ain't easy. And you guys ain't helping much. Uh oh, I can see the devil beckoning...... TC

Tackhead - Posted - 09/16/2010:  06:04:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjered So I am working hard on saving me from myself, but it ain't easy. And you guys ain't helping much. Uh oh, I can see the devil beckoning...... TC

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Resistance--is--useless. You--MUST--give--in. I'm not the devil, but why fight it?

~John

kingfisher500 - Posted - 09/16/2010:  08:38:34

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Nice to see this thread reinvigorated.

I have been playing for just about two months now. Totally fun! I am able to play more tunes on the fiddle than I can on the banjo, and I have been "playing" banjo for nearly three years. I am stuck on tabulature on banjo, but I can play fiddle from notation or by ear.

The FHO is a great resource.

I am neglecting my banjo practice somewhat.

I'd love to hear how Banjo Judy is doing on fiddle now. Her postings to this thread really pushed me over the edge of indecision to buy and learn fiddle.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 09/16/2010:  10:12:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by kingfisher500

Nice to see this thread reinvigorated.

I have been playing for just about two months now. Totally fun! I am able to play more tunes on the fiddle than I can on the banjo, and I have been "playing" banjo for nearly three years. I am stuck on tabulature on banjo, but I can play fiddle from notation or by ear.

The FHO is a great resource.

I am neglecting my banjo practice somewhat.

I'd love to hear how Banjo Judy is doing on fiddle now. Her postings to this thread really pushed me over the edge of indecision to buy and learn fiddle.

---

Banjo Judy is currently enjoying her new granddaughter and 10 year old grandson, and visiting in California without a fiddle nearby. However, upon my return, I intend to continue to play the fiddle.

The more I learn on fiddle, the more I realize how much there is to learn. One cannot play the fiddle in the background (as one can do with a banjo) as the fiddle must be heard.

I had a great week at Rocky Mountain Fiddle Camp last August (highly recommend any aspiring fiddle players to check that camp out) and there I found out that indeed, there is a lot more than old time music that can be played on fiddle.

So, now I find myself playing a variety of styles on the fiddle, and because all the tunes are in my head, I can figure them out on the fiddle - but when I last was in ABQ (my home) I was tackling double stops with Brad Leftwich on his two DVD set. I highly recommend that set - Adam Hurt recommended it to me because he said the bowing techniques were well presented, and indeed they are. Double bowing is great when I can get it right.

Bonus for me - when I learn a new tune to me ear on fiddle, the tune gets stuck in my head and transfers easily to the banjo when I play. A win win situations (except for the cats who still leave when I play).

carlb - Posted - 09/16/2010:  11:50:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by BANJOJUDY
Banjo Judy ..................... intend to continue to play the fiddle.

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Next time you come to Philly, I also have an extra fiddle, or you can use mine while I get to play the banjo.

Jethro Aberdeen - Posted - 09/16/2010:  13:27:13

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I must confess I've been bitten by the same bug......
Kevin

kingfisher500 - Posted - 09/16/2010:  15:00:34

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Hi Judy

Great to hear that you are still fiddling. It is most addictive. I have not progressed to double stops, but I am easily learning tunes by ear.

That is something that I have NOT yet learned to do on banjo. I love the banjo, but I find it tough.

Enjoy the visit with family. I have four grandchildren. God's gift for not killing my children as they say. ;)

Dock Jekel - Posted - 09/16/2010:  19:30:19

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Nice to see this thread reinvigorated, as kingfisher500 said! Whereas, some mastery of the banjo is almost near (I am trying to sound modest), I feel like I could never master the fiddle. It is so wide open. However, I have noticed, that it does not take too long for the fiddle to sound good to the player, but, a long time to sound good to the bystander!

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 09/16/2010:  22:57:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by carlb

quote:

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Originally posted by BANJOJUDY
Banjo Judy ..................... intend to continue to play the fiddle.

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Next time you come to Philly, I also have an extra fiddle, or you can use mine while I get to play the banjo.

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We were just discussing when we should come to Philly - would love to see you and catch up and play one of your fiddles, and that banjo, of course. Hi to Enid and Barbara and Bill and please, Carl, come up with a date perhaps in October - that might work for you.

dshookOwsky - Posted - 09/22/2010:  18:34:07

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This thread is exactly what I didn't need to read. I've been playing guitar (badly) for years and just started mandolin in December 2009 and banjo in March 2010. Of course that leaves me "a fiddle short of a bluegrass band".

Seriously though, I'd love to get my hands on a fiddle as soon as I can find a decently priced entry level model.

Penel - Posted - 09/24/2010:  20:26:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by dshookOwsky



Seriously though, I'd love to get my hands on a fiddle as soon as I can find a decently priced entry level model.

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I double dare you to make that statement over on fiddle hangout.

Isaac Enloe - Posted - 09/26/2010:  14:46:59

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Learning the fiddle was the best move I made for being a better banjo player, just as learning the banjo made me a better guitar player. Just watch out because, as others have said, the fiddle is SO addictive! I'm glad I waited until I had my banjo chops down pretty well, because I'll often go a couple of days without touching my banjo...
Isaac

Dock Jekel - Posted - 10/07/2010:  17:59:18

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Issac! I couldn't have said it better. "glad I waited until I had my banjo chops down pretty well" - I been using a lot of my practice time fiddlin'!

DenBanjo - Posted - 10/08/2010:  06:59:25

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My daughter got a cheap violin thinking she was going to do that in school orchestra this year. She went back to the Cello. I've been thinking of picking it up myself, but I will focus on my banjo more before doing that.

Clawdan - Posted - 10/08/2010:  07:40:55

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For those of you wanting to try it out this summer I'll be doing my "Scratchcamp" which is both clawhammer and fiddle from scratch. clawdan.com - workshops, scratchcamp.

dan

chickenstalker - Posted - 10/11/2010:  23:37:40

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playing the fiddle has made me a better banjo player. I scatch out melodies in a sort of "wade ward" style, but to say that i do it that well would be exagerating. I am a dadgum decent banjo player, but the fiddle is a pleasure and a challenge in very different ways. Bow control is a central aspect that defines a fiddle players competency and style, and takes time and practice to develop (as well as technique, at least as related to the desired style/sound of tune.

doc.COM - Posted - 10/12/2010:  02:14:40

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Great that you finally took up fiddle playing. I started last June, so that's 4 months ago and I still find the fiddle seductive and unforgiving, and I can't stay away from it. That said, I still adore playing the banjo...doc.com

quote:

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Originally posted by abbey

I've been thinking about this thread lately because it pushed me over the edge into finally trying fiddle--and I LOVE it!

It has been nearly three months now. Yes, it sounded horribly screechy at first, but it is so satisfying to play, and I have made steady progress. I have even been able to play at the slow jam the past couple of months---totally fun!

So if anyone out there is still just thinking about it; I say give it a try.

---

banjered - Posted - 10/12/2010:  05:50:17

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Y'all got me curious. How long was it before you could actually enjoy HEARING yourself play -three months, a year, two years? I've heard of some folks not willing to go public for several years, but then you see these tiny kids doing a pretty acceptable job. I know a retired guy who took up the fiddle two years ago and he does a pretty good job playing fiddle at the OT sessions, not 100% but pretty darn good, good 'nuff to jam with and have fun. TC

abbey - Posted - 10/12/2010:  06:10:58

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I think the first week was the worst by far, and it was fortunate that I started lessons the week everyone in my family was out of town!

But every day was better than the day before, so I have enjoyed it very much all along. I guess I ddin't enjoy the way I sounded for a couple of weeks or so. My instructor encouraged me to play a tune at the slow jam I attend very early on--and I did after not quite four weeks. (It was just Flop-Eared Mule.) Fun!! Very much fun!

Yes, I do get frustrated and discouraged sometimes, but mostly playing the fiddle just makes me happy.

Dock Jekel - Posted - 10/12/2010:  17:06:45

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banjered, this is what I think... us banjo players got a good head start with old time music, cause we know what it sounds like pretty well, in our heads. Joking, I say it does not take too long to sound good to ourselves, but far longer to sound good to others. Seriously, after a couple months practice, especially if you have a teacher, you should expect to sound pretty good on simple tunes, like Cripple Creek, Liza Jane, and Shortin' Bread- not as long as you'd think! Go for it. Hey, I got a seven year old daughter, who picked it up at four, and she can jam just fine now on a dozen tunes or more, with the adults. Thats all the kick in the butt that I needed! I have only been playing for five months or so, and am on the verge of doing dang nice twin fiddling with my wife (on simpler tunes).

biscuit joiner - Posted - 10/12/2010:  21:45:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjered

Y'all got me curious. How long was it before you could actually enjoy HEARING yourself play -three months, a year, two years? I've heard of some folks not willing to go public for several years, but then you see these tiny kids doing a pretty acceptable job. I know a retired guy who took up the fiddle two years ago and he does a pretty good job playing fiddle at the OT sessions, not 100% but pretty darn good, good 'nuff to jam with and have fun. TC

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Tom,

I think I have played with you in the OT jam at the brewery in Ashland at least once. I noticed several of the folks there switch back and forth fiddle-banjo. Having people like that around will really smooth out the learning curve. I've been fiddling about 3 months and am not too horrible, it's gone much faster than banjo b/c I already had the tunes in my head, and I have other fiddler friends who have helped me tremendously by allowing me to scrape away with them. You should definitely try it.