androo - Posted - 12/09/2009:  12:27:58

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Just want to add that Chris Grotewohl is a great source for Celtic Music on the ol' 5 string.

http://irish5string.homestead.com/ch

And of course Tony Furtado has some outstanding Celtic music in his Tab books.

http://www.tonyfurtado.com/merch.html

imac50 - Posted - 12/09/2009:  13:47:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Good on you Iain, I knew you'd come through. That's very elegant and you remained true to Skinner's original version in the fourth measure (where the II - V change is chord-maniacs). I went for a contemporary variation in mine, though I may go back to Skinner's original. Iain, wait till you see my strathspey version! (joke ... maybe!)

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Ha! Ha!.

Tom, Skinner has beaten you to it. See the Laird of Drumblair here - http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/...Manuscript=1

There is even a short music clip to hear it.

I haven't tried tabbing it though.

Iain

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/09/2009:  14:31:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by imac50

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Good on you Iain, I knew you'd come through. That's very elegant and you remained true to Skinner's original version in the fourth measure (where the II - V change is chord-maniacs). I went for a contemporary variation in mine, though I may go back to Skinner's original. Iain, wait till you see my strathspey version! (joke ... maybe!)

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Ha! Ha!.

Tom, Skinner has beaten you to it. See the Laird of Drumblair here - http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/...Manuscript=1

There is even a short music clip to hear it.

I haven't tried tabbing it though.

Iain

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Iain, I know, it's also in the Martin and Hughes book, Ho-rogheallaidh (as a hornpipe), but with the exact same notes and triplets as the strathspey. Below it is Angus. It's ambitious, to be sure, as a hornpipe or strathspey. The reel is a piece of cake by comparison.

I think once you want to play all those triplets, having the open strings comes in real handy, unless you become like Pat Cloud, which will require some serious dexterity and speed. It hurts my brain to think of playing all the triplets without a capo. Maybe I'll bring my arrangement in total alignment with yours (same exact notes lowered a whole step), then capo up. That way we can play it in unison, note for note.

imac50 - Posted - 12/09/2009:  14:44:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

quote:

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Originally posted by imac50

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway

Good on you Iain, I knew you'd come through. That's very elegant and you remained true to Skinner's original version in the fourth measure (where the II - V change is chord-maniacs). I went for a contemporary variation in mine, though I may go back to Skinner's original. Iain, wait till you see my strathspey version! (joke ... maybe!)

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Ha! Ha!.

Tom, Skinner has beaten you to it. See the Laird of Drumblair here - http://www.abdn.ac.uk/scottskinner/...Manuscript=1

There is even a short music clip to hear it.

I haven't tried tabbing it though.

Iain

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Iain, I know, it's also in the Martin and Hughes book, Ho-rogheallaidh (as a hornpipe), but with the exact same notes and triplets as the strathspey. Below it is Angus. It's ambitious, to be sure, as a hornpipe or strathspey. The reel is a piece of cake by comparison.

I think once you want to play all those triplets, having the open strings comes in real handy, unless you become like Pat Cloud, which will require some serious dexterity and speed. It hurts my brain to think of playing all the triplets without a capo. Maybe I'll bring my arrangement in total alignment with yours (same exact notes lowered a whole step), then capo up. That way we can play it in unison, note for note.

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At least you don't have to play it so fast so it might be tolerable. I must have a look at it tomorrow. Watch this space!

Iain

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/09/2009:  15:20:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjofanatico

I guess when you get to an advanced stage of music you see the connections between different styles of music, which to the musical simpletons seem to have steep walls separating them.

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Boyrachet's insightful reply to Banjofanatico:

quote:

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Originally posted by boyratchet

Banjofanatico wrote: “I guess when you get to an advanced stage of music you see the connections between different styles of music, which to the musical simpletons seem to have steep walls separating them.”

I'm not sure who you are suggesting is the "simpleton" and who is the one that has reached "an advanced stage of music", but you seem to be confusing an individual's capacity to appreciate different genres, as in your example of Charlie Parker, with the underlying elements that make a genre what it is, distinguishing it from other genres or traditions....

It is a bit silly to assume that traditional Irish music has to act like American folk music or that those who refuse to cast them in the same light are some sort of obstructionists....

I think we all struggle to escape from the constraints of our upbringing, musical or otherwise, when we butt up against what is unfamiliar. Good luck in your voyage.

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Banjowen very graciously wrote:

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjowen

Thanks Tom for making a tune that can sound a little complicated so easy to play, It's took me just over one hour to get it down smoothly. (I must be improving, ..and there must still be life in the old fingers yet).

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Owen, thank you, that’s why I’m here.

Boyratchet sees the forest from the trees. Some folks haven't experienced Ireland, Scotland or Britain. They don’t understand how Celtic melody and accompaniment instruments work, or how tune players and backers operate. We can learn a lot more by breaking the bread with the players who live the music. We can learn a lot just by looking at the Irish music books that are given to children at a very early age.

In Irish and Celtic tradition we talk of “players” and “backers” – a very real distinction which we don’t hear of in old-time and bluegrass. Okay, so what is it that these Celtic musicians are “playing” and “backing”?

The answer is simple: Tunes.

Melody – that lovely sinuous creature – is the essence of Celtic music – the tune itself. Each tune has a discernible key, mode, time signature, tempo and linear sequence of notes in precise duration, built from motifs, phrases and ornaments that determine its uniqueness, similarities and difference with other tunes. The tune tradition is its own entity and reward, though people may want to grip or hand-cuff the serpentine tune with rigid chords and alien methodologies. The tune will always slip through and continue on, freely, no matter who or what tries to grab, cage or bind it in chords.

It’s not unusual in BHO to see fallacious arguments that set up a “straw man”, e.g., portraying an adherent of a tradition as an obstructionist or a “simpleton” who is standing in the way of a better method. The logical fallacy continues undaunted, using circular reasoning to hammer an object into submission – crucifixion by begging the question. One who begs the question has stopped seeking truth; he seeks only to reinforce his own belief. Such thought may appear monomaniacal or get tedious very quickly. Veterans of BHO spot it immediately, and some folks will object: Too many knowledgeable musicians and professionals have been chased off the Hangout.

There's some flawed argument around here and it's not always easy to spot because it masks itself: First a straw man is set up, and then an argument is made “demonstrating” a conclusion by way of premises that assume that conclusion.

This type of argument is designed to limit further intelligent inquiry. It's an opinion masquerading as argument, and any logical argument is finished from the start: that’s the essence of begging the question. Such cocksure opinion may even appeal to some convention or accepted social practice (appeal to authority).

So how does this pertain to this thread? Well a strong opinion has been expressed over and over that goes something like this:

(1) In Irish and Celtic books, learners must SEE CHORDS with the notation in order for them to learn tunes, because chords are used by accompanists. (This begs the question.)

This opinion fails to take into account that, historically and up until the present, Irish and Celtic tune players learned tunes without seeing chords on a page. In fact, the principal tutors used by Irish children in grade school have no chords. For example, these books, standard books used across Ireland, have no chord symbols or bass clef chords: Fionn Seisiún Session Tune Sets (Books 1-3); An Píobaire, Nos. 1-34; Irish Traditional Music – Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann: Craobh Naithí, (Books One and Two).

(2) Learners must HEAR an accompanist play chords in order to learn Irish and Celtic tunes, because accompanists are heard in recordings. (This begs the question.)

This opinion doesn’t take into account that Irish and Celtic tune players are continually learning tunes without aid of chord backers (who might distract them from their primary mission).

(3) A learner must be familiar with or KNOW the chords in order to learn Irish and Celtic tunes, because accompanists know chords to back tunes. (This begs the question.)

A Celtic accompanist, a tune backer, typically plays out of his head, using a combination of pre-planned ideas with spontaneous variation, with different backers employing different instruments, tunings, contrapuntal lines, dyads, drones and partial chords and chord movements.

Many backers never attempt to play chord progressions as we would expect to hear them in North American traditions, for example, standard progressions in old-time and bluegrass music. They simply don’t hear music or think this way, and they didn’t learn simply from books, if they opened them at all!

Tune backers don’t have to agree on a single set of changes, even tunings or backing ideas, and they don’t, as we learn very quickly at sessions, where one player’s accompaniment collides with another’s. A player could be playing and developing accompaniment ideas that work well with a tune, but that doesn’t mean these ideas work with another player’s accompaniment. And we’re not talking jazz either, another great art form but with different tonal practices and protocols.

Many traditional players will admit that they don’t know what the chords are, and this doesn’t bother them in the least. Unless they are obviously the wrong thing to play, chords are a mere passing fancy to tune players, who can take them or leave them. This is how traditional tune players think. Trust me on that.

"So many tunes, so little time."

Tom

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/09/2009 17:33:33

AllanJ - Posted - 12/10/2009:  01:01:46

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+1 what Tom said. It's quite normal to have no backers at a session - chordal backing is an optional add-on - the melody is the thing.

I'd say the same is true of many folksongs (at least in the English tradition), they were not composed with chords in mind and while you can find chords that fit you're unlikely to enhance the pure unaccompanied melody by playing them.

Cheers

Allan

banjofanatico - Posted - 12/11/2009:  07:07:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by boyratchet
I think we all struggle to escape from the constraints of our upbringing, musical or otherwise, when we butt up against what is unfamiliar. Good luck in your voyage.

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Thanks. We set sail tomorrow. I think we have enough provisions, but the salt-pork may run out early if we aren't careful.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/11/2009:  13:00:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjofanatico

quote:

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Originally posted by boyratchet
I think we all struggle to escape from the constraints of our upbringing, musical or otherwise, when we butt up against what is unfamiliar. Good luck in your voyage.

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Thanks. We set sail tomorrow. I think we have enough provisions, but the salt-pork may run out early if we aren't careful.

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That's a real knee-slapper, matey! Har har har!

quote:

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Originally posted by AllanJ

+1 what Tom said. It's quite normal to have no backers at a session - chordal backing is an optional add-on - the melody is the thing....

Cheers

Allan

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Allan, you got it in one. The “add-on” idea is exactly the point. We have more on Greek musical theories than we have on Greek music itself. We know it was modal, was associated with words, ceremonies, dancing, religious cults, where composers were also performers, combining handed-down musical formulas with spontaneous personal freedom – improvising in the moment. One can imagine that no two performances of the same piece were exactly alike. But it’s impossible to know exactly what was going on.

Perhaps the Almighty Syncretist Banjofanatico Mardochaios can whip up another magico-audio-scenario on his syndico-anarchist-21st-century laptopo. Gods preserve and bless his salty heart for coughing hot smoke and fire into this freckled simpleton’s thread. Where would we be without his illuminating wit which subjugates us with mirth? Oh, but all good voyages must come to an end: “Together they would travel, in a boat with billowed sails....”

Okay, moving past the doldrums, it was all the theories rather than the practices of the Greeks that affected Western European and Church music of the Middle Ages, when monophony – melody without harmony or counterpoint – came into fashion, before the Classical major-minor system, before polyphony, before old-time, bluegrass and jazz.

In Celtic music we’re advancing and undulating in monophony that goes back to the medieval modal system, each tune having at least one and sometimes more than one tonal center, where a melodic entity (“Puff” again) takes shape, glides, jumps, dives, twists, turns and recycles itself. When practiced and played solo, Celtic music is not polyphony; it always boils down to a single melody line (monophony).

Being the son and grandson of New Yorkers who grew and witnessed the Jazz Era and Swing Era, I love jazz and I plan to play some with my dad when I’m back home for Christmas. (My grandfather was a raconteur and tenor banjo and mandolin player. Dad is a cornet and trumpet player.)

What works in jazz – and “there are as many types of jazz as there are jazz artists” – may be totally alien to Irish and Celtic music. You don’t improve on traditional Celtic music by turning it into something else. That only morphs it into “something else” (duh) and you’ve possibly alienated the core population in the process with that little foray. I’ve met so many “egos” who thought that they could change, syncretize and improve upon tradition. (Hey, the Greeks of the Hellenistic period did something like this in their polytheism, having the habit of identifying lesser gods of disparate foreign mythologies with their own.)

Well, a good friend Mike "Mungo" O'Connor, a sensible Irishman, put it bluntly (long before chasing the Tiger):

“You can’t ride the two horses when you only got the one arse.”

I am lucky. I am loyal to many musical traditions and respect them in different ways, for different reasons. Loving different styles of music and being able to serve them up to others is like loving different cuisines and being able to cook them up and put them on the table. It takes preparation and serious follow-through. Also, you don’t dilute or cross flavors that will fight. It’s a great idea to stick to one type of recipe and one ambrosial tradition at a time – in food and music – both types of playing!

My big demon is that I hear chords and countermelodies in my head constantly, probably because of my bluegrass and jazz training. (My dad is a horn player and traditional jazz musician.) That doesn’t mean I must play chords and sax riffs, because I hear them. Restraint and demonstrating good taste is an important musical skill, in every style, just as it is an important social skill, at every occasion. Sometimes a little color and spice livens up a dish, but one must be careful not to add too much and step on the main event.

I know a lot of Celtic tunes that I can back reasonably well on guitar, but haven’t worked out the notes yet – the actual melodies. Chords come easy for me, sometimes too easy, being a guitarist and banjo player.

But chords in Celtic music can be a real distraction or a menace – just more rickety boxes to escape from in pursuit of the true essence. I love to improvise with chords, which may create a sort of musical soup at times. Artistic license – I call it big fun! There is no contradiction, just understanding context: The core of Celtic tradition is still about playing tunes, combining tunes, learning more tunes, well, you got it by now.

Knowing how to play and substitute chords is no shortcut for learning tune melodies, or playing variations on them. Improvising in Celtic music is very personal and distinguishes top players from passive holders of the tradition. This may sound like jazz, but whoa, be careful, it’s not.

It’s not jazz, it’s not old-time, bluegrass or rock ’n’ roll (except when it is). };^D>

It’s about focusing on, respecting and embracing other musical cultures and traditions and this philosophy stands in opposition to the arrogance of a misconception that holds that an old learning tradition can be improved upon by importing in new features and “add-ons” – that’s a load of baloney.

The impulse to standardize chord arrangements – valuable as it may seem – comes long after the fact and is an “add-on” to the melodic tradition in Irish and Celtic music, useful as it may be for band arrangements, or band in a box, band in a book, band in a brick, DVDs and the like.

It’s not the same in Celtic music as it is in bluegrass and North American picking traditions. Celtic music is not old-time either; just as old-time is not the traditional bluegrass ensemble, where everybody takes turns playing lead and back-up. It doesn’t work that way in Irish or Scottish trad, Cape Breton, Brittany or the Shetlands or in any *non-lobotomized* Celtic traditions, where the core of the tradition lives on, sometimes even in North America (e.g., in Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island).

Blind Blake sang, “I’m used to eatin’ pork chops and leavin’ the salt.” He had good taste!

Tom

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/12/2009 09:22:22

boyratchet - Posted - 12/11/2009:  14:12:45

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((Thanks. We set sail tomorrow. I think we have enough provisions, but the salt-pork may run out early if we aren't careful.))

I hope you don't end up like me. My musical development has been a bit like the Donner party's passage through the Sierra Nevada :-)

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/12/2009:  09:33:33

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To interested beginners, welcome to a rich and varied tradition! First, or in sum, a word of caution: Newcomers beware of "add-ons" touted by self-appointed experts, of musical snobs who don’t reach out to or learn from more experienced players, of know-it-alls who *tune out* of the tunes, of magic chord stratagems, boxes and toys that capture, process, homogenize and regurgitate the music.

Beware of attempts to standardize and syncretize various music traditions – that is, to make them conform to one standard, for some presumed greater good, serving up music as pabulum that everybody can play EXACTLY the same way EVERY time. In this *perfect* world we would all become Stepford Wives to an insipid, sterile and dying art. These are dangerous ideas, even if they are plausible, desirable or probable in poorly informed circles.

The living tradition – that is, the way people learn and play at home, at sessions and fleadhs will continue unabated. Backers will back tunes out of their heads, taking or leaving book-learned chord prescriptions, while tending toward recordings for original source material, tunings, rhythms and modal patterns.

Celtic tune backing, at sessions and on stage, takes sensitivity and knowing the tunes well enough to be secure in improvising on them. Bludgeon-strummers who whisper over at you – asking for chords or shouting “what key?” – are an annoying distraction at sessions. For experienced backers steeped in the tradition, it boils down to listening carefully, adapting and being creative in the moment.

Some country backroom sessions – if you can find them – have a hearty mistrust of tune backers, who can quickly ruin an otherwise lovely session. Some sessions may allow only one backer, one bodhrán player, one banjo player, and the like. I kid you not. They’ve been burned before, so enough is enough.

Here’s the closest parallel I can make with bluegrass: It’s like having only one banjo player in a bluegrass band. You don’t need two banjo players weaving through everything when you got a high lonesome singer nailing the lead vocal and carrying the *tune*. One banjo player is quite enough. In bluegrass, banjo players got to leave space some of the time.

At the session or fleadh (festival), tune players and backers talk of being “mad for tunes”; nobody is “mad for chords” or “mad for jamming”! To presume otherwise is like superimposing an alien mindset onto the scene, to be looking from outside the tradition, not being able to see it from the inside.

Instant experts may never learn the tunes, but it’s no fault of their own – there are no chords, no *crib* notes! It's important to keep beginner's mind and learn from everybody – even what not to do!

The tunes live on, spread and are adapted, and new ones are composed, and these are a constant source of joy and inspiration for the initiated. One initiates oneself by focusing on the music, mixing with the people and simply by reaching out. It’s a social process as well as an at home study.

};^D>

Tom

Don Borchelt - Posted - 12/12/2009:  13:40:50

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Tom Hanway wrote: "Beware of attempts to standardize and syncretize various music traditions – that is, to make them conform to one standard, for some presumed greater good, serving up music as pabulum that everybody can play EXACTLY the same way EVERY time."

Right you are!

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/12/2009:  21:15:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt

Tom Hanway wrote: "Beware of attempts to standardize and syncretize various music traditions – that is, to make them conform to one standard, for some presumed greater good, serving up music as pabulum that everybody can play EXACTLY the same way EVERY time."

Right you are!

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Don:

Gimme Shelter was on TV - amazingly. I had to run to see that ... still runnin'! Marty Balin got knocked out by an Angel. Phil Lesh said something like "... a musician got knocked out?" Jerry Garcia (looking like one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers) was beside himself, disgusted. This is then and that was now!

I'm looking forward to playing tunes, in relative sanity.

New York City baby! Sorry about the trade (the pitcher).

Tony DeMarco for tunes. Tony DeLello for bluegrass (Paddy Reilly's Music Bar), and then some: see my schedule at, oh what the filk is that ...:

http://www.myspace.com/tomhanwaymusic

};^>

banjofanatico - Posted - 12/13/2009:  08:58:25

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Some folks like to play the Celtic tunes in the traditional way. Some others might want to play the same tunes in a non-traditional way, mabey using non-traditional instruments, or changing notes, etc. You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it. This is still folk music, isn't it ? Or is this some kind of classical music ?

boyratchet - Posted - 12/13/2009:  14:59:24

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banjofanatico, I know exactly where your coming from. My own interest in Celtic music is due to the fact that, in its essence, the tradition is monophonic. (I also love the drones and "power chords" or "dyads" as Tom calls them.) That isn't to say that I don't love listening to how the tradition is treated and sometimes expanded by others who are tackling it from a different perspective. Of course, if you are coming from "too far out" you are likely expanding your own tradition (personal or collective) more than you are expanding the one upon which you are drawing. I think we would all agree that this too is vital.

In Tom's defense (not that I think he needs and help ), his book is a presentation of the tradition to those who are in fact using a non-traditional instrument and likely coming from outside the tradition. Rather than simply provide a tab collection, of which there are already plenty to choose from, he went out on a limb and attempted to initiate the uninitiated. From my perspective he opens a door rather than slamming one shut.

A distinctly non traditional take on an old Irish standard, and it's also the way I play the tune although I have yet to figure out the chords (seriously).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUWxplq53So

AllanJ - Posted - 12/14/2009:  01:13:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjofanatico

Some folks like to play the Celtic tunes in the traditional way. Some others might want to play the same tunes in a non-traditional way, mabey using non-traditional instruments, or changing notes, etc. You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it. This is still folk music, isn't it ? Or is this some kind of classical music ?

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I don't think anyone is saying there's only one way to play the tunes, rather that within the context of a trad session chordal backing is not 'required' (and at some sessions might be discouraged) and that the chords are not cast in stone. It seems reasonable then that if you buy a book aimed at people wanting to play a melody instrument at a trad session it won;t contain the chords as; one, you don't need them and two, they'll likely be wrong as at your session the backer will choose to play something different.

If you want to play at a trad session there's a certain 'etiquette' (if I was going to go to a Bluegrass jam I'd find out first if my Bodhrán playing would be welcomed...).

Outside of a traditional pub session you're free to do what you want and there are some great reworkings of traditional tunes (like Brass Monkey's reworking of English tunes).

Cheers

Allan

imac50 - Posted - 12/14/2009:  06:08:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by AllanJ

quote:

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Originally posted by banjofanatico

Some folks like to play the Celtic tunes in the traditional way. Some others might want to play the same tunes in a non-traditional way, mabey using non-traditional instruments, or changing notes, etc. You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it. This is still folk music, isn't it ? Or is this some kind of classical music ?

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I don't think anyone is saying there's only one way to play the tunes, rather that within the context of a trad session chordal backing is not 'required' (and at some sessions might be discouraged) and that the chords are not cast in stone. It seems reasonable then that if you buy a book aimed at people wanting to play a melody instrument at a trad session it won;t contain the chords as; one, you don't need them and two, they'll likely be wrong as at your session the backer will choose to play something different.

If you want to play at a trad session there's a certain 'etiquette' (if I was going to go to a Bluegrass jam I'd find out first if my Bodhrán playing would be welcomed...).

Outside of a traditional pub session you're free to do what you want and there are some great reworkings of traditional tunes (like Brass Monkey's reworking of English tunes).

Cheers

Allan

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I agree with you, Allan. The reason these tunes can be played in other styles is because the chords are variable. If we have a stand in keyboard player with the band there are big differences in what and how they play. Some are very traditional and others are more experimental. The only reason for it being a problem would be if we had two keyboard players at the same time. This would also be a problem in a session if there were 2 very different guitar styles trying to play together.

It's a bit like Traditional Bluegrass and non traditional bluegrass it's still the same tune but doesn't sound the same. My book is geared towards playing the tune. I don't ever play back up in the ceilidh band so I have never learned any chords for the tunes. If I find myself in a backup situation then I put together something as I listen to it. It's probably not very good because I don't do it enough!

Iain

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/15/2009:  06:50:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjofanatico

You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it. This is still folk music, isn't it? Or is this some kind of classical music ?

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That's another straw man and beside the question. I have never said any such nonsense: "there is only one way to play Celtic tunes from the past", or from any period – quite the contrary, if you'd bother to read what I write and consider it.

Let’s not misrepresent the various Celtic tune traditions, which are not one in the same. Let’s not put words into another person’s mouth and then claim: “I don't buy it.” Folks can see through that and form their own intelligent opinions, if they read content and seek to comprehend it. (It only takes reading comprehension and focus.)

Folks, especially beginners, please see my last few posts – I’ve answered this already, so I need not repeat myself. A little sensitivity to a broad and complicated topic is all that I ask. People love to jump to conclusions in BHO and toss them out there, without really reading the posts and responding to the positions made in them. It's like a gladiatorial sport around here, just shoot from the hip but don't say much (of anything).

First, to clear up a gross misrepresentation, I work in both traditional and non-traditional contexts, recording both traditional tunes, at times, and musical hybrids at others. I have been involved in non-Celtic (bluegrass, blues, rock, country, jazz) as well as core Celtic traditions, the latter which use spontaneous and pre-planned variations, which I bring up to illustrate an important sub-topic: variation and improvisation. I have written about this extensively in the glossary to my book.

Variation in Irish traditional music is generally played spontaneously, by those who are skilled at it; by contrast, variation in highly skilled Welsh Triple Harp music, is usually pre-planned – that is, worked out in advance but variation on the melody nonetheless. Both forms of variation are “Celtic” but are distinct forms of Celtic style, coming quite literally from different places, different traditions. Interestingly, Wales alone (not Ireland) has an unbroken tradition of harping, going back to the ancients.

During the 18th century, the Welsh Triple Harp (originally invented on the Continent) rose to prominence as the Welsh national instrument. After the harping tradition in Ireland died out, by 1845, with no living practitioners, the Irish eventually had to turn to the Welsh tradition to re-cast their broken harping tradition, now employing the fleshy tips of the fingers instead of fingernails to pluck the instrument.

According to the late Irish music expert, Seán Ó Riada, maybe somewhat amusingly, modern-day Irish harping, “with its soft rather blurred sound, has given rise to rather feminine drooping musical figures, while the older traditional sharp-toned technique gave rise to a vigorous masculine music.”

Can any banjo players, tenor, plectrum or 5-string, see any parallels or openings in that?

We all start as beginners when exploring new cultural traditions and styles of music. In the above opinion I see confusion about Celtic traditions, which are not a single tradition, not a monolithic “folk” tradition, but which come from related and distinct folk traditions or sub-styles – they are not one in the same. Please (at some point) see my article here (found in two places):

Perspective and Meaning in Celtic Music

This was originally published Celtic League, American Branch, under “Celtic Music: Overview”: http://www.celticleague.org/

We hear the term Celtic used rather loosely, but often to distinguish these musics from other styles, not choosing between "folk" and "classical" music. Let’s not be vague about this, but look deeper, honestly and willingly. There is no one “traditional way” – don't believe that rubbish and don't let others plant such false notions into anyone else's philosophy here; get it from original sources. Anyone can be a critic or monolithic in their views. Don't take critics' word for it; see for yourself by going back to the original post, not an erroneous précis about it.

Nobody here is saying there is one “traditional way” or approach that has to be used, and the two Celtic book authors here are certainly not saying that. I am not saying it and Iain Mac Lachlan is not saying it. That would be silly, to use a favourite Iain expression. Iain just had his Mel Bay book published, Celtic Tune Encyclopedia for 5-String Banjo, a tremendous resource. He writes:

“Here in Scotland you will hear all sorts of different harmonies to the tunes. There are jazz influences aplenty, salsa, reggae, East European. There are bands experimenting all the time. Some of it is to my taste and some of it is not but I have no problem with people trying things. It has been suggested that our band has a very American feel to it. I can't imagine why!”

Please find an example of an original Celtic tune, a hornpipe, using all manner of instruments, some of them common to Celtic traditions – some of them evolutionary or in a developmental stage – the two different banjos, for example. One is played in a contemporary Celtic fingerstyle (me), the other played in a contemporary Celtic clawhammer style (Mark Schatz). This is Celtic music from the diaspora, with both traditional and non-traditional elements: HORIZON HORNPIPE

The hornpipe, by the way, is a kind of dance tune, connected to folk dance traditions that also evolve and adapt over time. There is no one traditional way when we're also dealing with living dance traditions.



Best of luck,

Tom

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/16/2009 05:21:21

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/15/2009:  08:18:32

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Please see this on-line article about backing tunes, or "How to Avoid Being a 'Clueless' Backer at the Session", which Bill Keith helped me to formulate. I think folks will find a funny story in this, and it's too detailed to summarize in this forum:

Listening to and Backing Celtic Music, originally published in Mel Bay's Guitar Sessions® Web Magazine, May 2001.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/15/2009 09:22:59

MTBanjo - Posted - 12/15/2009:  09:19:01

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Don't worry Tom, anyone who's read any of your posts and understood anything you've said knows this: "You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it" is complete crap. I have no idea how someone would come up with that conclusion after reading your posts.

maryzcox - Posted - 12/15/2009:  09:54:44

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Hello,
Just put up a simple version of "Song of the Chanter" on clawhammer style banjo. Take a look and listen if you'd like.
Many of the slower, haunting tunes sound very nice in the clawhammer style.
http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/165527
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/15/2009:  14:22:23

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quote:

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Originally posted by maryzcox

Hello,
Just put up a simple version of "Song of the Chanter" on clawhammer style banjo. Take a look and listen if you'd like.
Many of the slower, haunting tunes sound very nice in the clawhammer style.
http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/165527
Best wishes,
Mary Z. Cox

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That's lovely Mary! You did a fine job on the recording and it's in a fun contemporary clawhammer style. It's gorgeous. I had some streaming trouble over here in Ireland, so I'll go back later tonight for another listen, hopefully uninterrupted. The tune and backing are perfectly suited, and the melody comes through perfectly.

And ‘The Song of the Chanter’ sure is an old piping tune, a modal march played by Irish Uilleann pipers in D Mixolydian (same notes a G Major). It's in H.J. Clarke's The New Approach to Uilleann Piping (Ossian OMB 140), a thoroughly contemporary and reputable source. It has many adherents on both sides of the Atlantic. (I take a lot of ornamentational ideas from it, for both the fretting and picking hands, using grace note, melodic, rhythmic and intervallic variations.)

Chords are not included, being incidental to piping tunes, but developing one's ears, tastes, and improvisational style are stressed from very early on in the book. A typical comment about ornamentation or improvisation runs like this: "Use it at your own discretion." The same could be said for chords: Use them at your own discretion.

Personal choice is stressed throughout and this is typical of approaches to Irish traditional and other Celtic music.

The book and companion CD works as a series of exercises showing the student how to finger the chanter to get tones, also how to squeeze the bellows, gradually working in exercises, slow airs, basic tunes, different keys and time signatures, and increasingly harder tunes. It works. Focus is given to playing tunes without grace notes, then with them, and various forms of ornamentation, such as "popping" and "cranning" are taught. Popping gives the effect of a dog's bark, and the author writes:

"Like all other ornamentation, popping is wholly optional, so do not use it if you do not like its effect. You should, however, only decide whether to use it or not after you have mastered it."

Irish and Celtic tutors emphasize reading standard notation, not theoretical chords, building technique by playing actual tunes, listening and playing along to a sound recording (of the tune) designed to train the ear and familiarize the learner with tunes in gradual stages. Skills are developed this way, one lesson at a time, gradually combining techniques to teach consistent playing habits, especially for those who do not have the advantage of a personal instructor to provide disciplined study of the fundamentals of tune playing and fingering technique.

If folks think that mastering Celtic tunes on a 5-string banjo is difficult, try learning the rudiments of uilleann piping technique, which isn't any easier to learn how to play, the pipes being so physically demanding and hard just to get in tune. It's probably the most "physical" instrument in Irish trad, maybe not quite as physical as the Great Highland Bagpipe, which Iain Mac Lachlan can tell you about, being of Highland stock.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/15/2009 15:28:18

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/16/2009:  06:40:41

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quote:

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Please see this on-line article about backing tunes, or "How to Avoid Being a 'Clueless' Backer at the Session", which Bill Keith helped me to formulate. I think folks will find a funny story in this, and it's too detailed to summarize in this forum:

Listening to and Backing Celtic Music, originally published in Mel Bay's Guitar Sessions® Web Magazine, May 2001.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MTBanjo

Don't worry Tom, anyone who's read any of your posts and understood anything you've said knows this: "You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it" is complete crap. I have no idea how someone would come up with that conclusion after reading your posts.

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Thanks Zach! I have a clue as to "why", but it's a waste of time. I have more proactive goals than digging in ol' dirt. No worries.

The living tradition survives by adapting and re-inventing itself, symbolized by the ancient symbol of the snake swallowing its own tail. Earlier (scroll back a page) I presented J.S. Skinner's 'Angus Campbell', with totally optional chords, because a backer can substitute different ones, or play drones, bass parts, contrapuntal lines, partial chords (dyads), improvising in personal creative ways. It is traditional to improvise back-up; being traditional and being innovative are not mutually exclusive terms.

It would be unwise to give credence to a monomaniacal obsession with a standard set of chords. At the session and on various recordings, we hear no monolithic set of chords to accompany a tune. At the session, being a tune backer requires a lot more than parroting book-learned chords that other backers would probably not attempt to duplicate, or even consider. If it's another tradition or group situation where chords need to be arranged or standardized, then that's understandable and practical. Fine.

Of course, artists, original musicians and band arrangers are free to use whatever accompaniment they wish for recordings, including drones, dyads and chord harmony, percussion, countermelodies and contrary motion, acoustic and electric instruments – it’s all good. Real artistic license seeks to evolve its own ends, its own methods, even to bend or break with old tradition, and this is natural and fun.

Some might consider the 5-string a “non-traditional” or non-Celtic instrument, being a traditional American instrument – alien to Celtic traditions. But is it alien? It has African origins as well as connections to 19th-century Gaelic and Celtic tunes, going all the way back to blackface minstrelsy and people like Joel Sweeney and Dan Emmett, but that’s a huge topic for other threads. Let's get to the real stuff, building on my earlier tab of 'Angus Campbell' - a variation using standard G tuning (capoing optional):




J.S. Skinner’s ‘The Laird o’ Drumblair’, written at the turn of the 20th century, is played on the fiddle 'Scordatura' fashion, by tuning the 3rd string to E, and the 4th to A, an old fiddle tuning (cross-tuning). This tune is a variation on ‘Angus Campbell’, to which Skinner refers in his manuscript, also boasting, “Several players have won medals with this tune.”

It also works beautifully on the 5-string banjo played in an evolving Celtic fingerstyle. It's a strathspey, with "Scots snaps" and flurries of triplets. What is “traditional” on the Scottish fiddle could be considered innovative on a 5-string banjo. It involves developing playing techniques to a high level of proficiency and not closing one’s mind off to new ideas, adaptations and compromises. It’s the willingness to be adaptive, I daresay “revolutionary” in one’s approach, willing to go out on a limb.

One could adapt this tune, change the key, and play it as a reel or hornpipe, solo or in a group situation of one's own choosing. Notice how, although it uses the same motifs and is a more ornamented version of ‘Angus Campbell’ (a variant of it) – I have chosen to simplify the accompaniment. I think this is better, but feel free to come up with your own back-up ideas, or leave out chords if you prefer. Also, notice how it goes straight into the second part without repeating the first part. One can repeat both parts, or just one part. The original tune structure is AB, but you could play AABB or AAB or ABB or ABA, and so on. You could also play it with 'Angus Campbell', developing it as you go. Artistic license.

I've tabbed it in a way that a solo banjo player can wrap his fingers around, designed for the beginner to intermediate player to advanced player. It's for everyone who wants to try it. Maybe it's not for purists of a peculiar persuasion.

Notice the reverse dotted pair, a Scots snap, in the second and fourth measures of the B section. Instead of being played as a “DOT-da” rhythm, with the first note getting more emphasis, it sounds more like “da-DOT”, the first note being played for the shortest possible duration, going straight to the second note, which is now accented and held longer. These take some practice. Listen to Scottish fiddlers, especially, where you can hear the "Scots snap" in action. It's like the cadence of Scottish language, in fact, it is a clear reflection of it, coming from that linguistic culture.

One can always smooth out the arrangement and play this as a hornpipe, or even a reel, and it wouldn’t be “wrong”, but it would sound more Irish than Scottish. Scottish and Irish fiddlers are regularly borrowing and adapting tunes from each other, and that’s normal.

Beginner's tip: Work this tune up slowly, try different fingerings and get the notes and the timing together before picking up the tempo. It's about playing steady - not being in too much of a hurry to get to the finish line.

You could even use it as a Winfield *contest piece*, either stately or fast, if you are so inclined.

Feel free to record it. It's not hard, just notey, using a more “melodic” Celtic fingerstyle approach. Feel free to adapt it, perhaps doing more single-string work, or using other drones and ornamentation, slides and the like.

Make it work for you, your way, but do try to get the main notes. In many Celtic traditions, chords are purely optional and incidental, as per usual, to the tune itself. If you choose to play a lot of open or barred chords, keep in mind that reharmonization can work in your favor to hold the listener's interest. Melody players improvise in subtle ways, and so can tune backers.

Like all Gaelic and Celtic tunes, it stands on its own though I've included chords for the potentially lost tune backer, who, if he's worth his *salt*, probably doesn't need to be spoon-fed them.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/17/2009 09:09:09

imac50 - Posted - 12/19/2009:  07:37:58

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Great arrangement again, Tom, and easy on the hands for playing. I like Skinner's tempo instructions. Strathspey - 20 seconds, Reel - 15 seconds. Now that is something I can relate to. The triplet runs in this are fun and not just the usual scale type pattern. Do you think we will see this tune at Winfield sometime? Would the judges allow it?

Iain

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/07/2010:  06:33:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by imac50

Great arrangement again, Tom, and easy on the hands for playing. I like Skinner's tempo instructions. Strathspey - 20 seconds, Reel - 15 seconds. Now that is something I can relate to. The triplet runs in this are fun and not just the usual scale type pattern. Do you think we will see this tune at Winfield sometime? Would the judges allow it?

Iain

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Happy New Year to all! Any luck with this tune?

Iain, just got off tour, back in Ireland now, sorry for the late reply.

To answer your question, if people can play 'Devil's Dream' or 'Blackberry Blossom' or 'Sailor's Hornpipe' for a banjo contest, why not this one? It's a very chopsy tune. I think it would just blow people's minds, if nailed. It's a very elegant and catchy melody.

Scottish traditional music, especially fiddle tunes, is a clear forerunner of bluegrass fiddle tunes anyway, so we're reaching back and delving into the treasure trove, respecting tradition and borrowing from it, in a sense resurrecting a piece of it for banjo, a new application for an old standard. We're recycling tradition and adding to it.

This tune is not that hard once you get it flowing under your fingers. It sure sounds impressive though, especially for a contest!

The key is in execution, not taking it too fast, because once you get into the triplets you have to play it at 20 or 15 seconds.

There's an equation for converting this to beats per minute, not that hard to figure out. Anybody want to explain the math?

I have been trying different fingerings for this tune, and they all work, but I still like what I have put down for the right hand, notice the T-M pinch in the first full measure. I like the way that feels and sounds for some reason, though I would generally be more inclined to start with an I-M pinch, which you see the next time that phrase comes up.

Notice how and where I have used drones (as dyads), which echoes Skinner's octaves/accents on fiddle. This helps to give it more of a Scottish feel.

I recommend that people look very closely at the dots in order to find where the *Scots snap* occurs (just twice). This is very satisfying to play on banjo, once you get the hang of it.

Winfield, why not? People are always looking for something new, tuneful and exciting to play!

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/08/2010:  08:27:00

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I cannot resist putting this tune here because although it came from a distant shore, long ago, it is well-known in Ireland, Scotland and throughout Britain, and I play and sing it at sessions locally, and I'm going to teach it to my new band....

For more background and germane links about this very Celtic-sounding American reel, which is played across oceans and musical cultures, please see this thread:

http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/167569

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/09/2010:  17:24:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by MTBanjo

Don't worry Tom, anyone who's read any of your posts and understood anything you've said knows this: "You seem to be saying there is only one way to play these Celtic tunes from the past, and this the traditional way. I don't buy it" is complete crap. I have no idea how someone would come up with that conclusion after reading your posts.

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Don't you know it! Some folks resort to mischaracterization and misinformation when they run out of real arguments, arguments that make sense. Another device or decoy is to try to make people take sides, without thinking, appealing to their emotional or cultural biases.

I once had a *reviewer*, hiding behind a pseudonym, pan Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo, not mentioning my CD (68 tunes), the chapters on Exercises and Techniques, A Cross Section of Celtic Tunes (from the Six Celtic Nations), or the Glossary, which is why major libraries around the world (including Cape Breton and Lincoln Center) see fit to put my book on their shelves, Instead my work was attacked through emotionalism and mischaracterization, also apparently because the tunes were too difficult for the anonymous *reviewer*, who generously offered that the book lacked "critical content". Nice.

This "review" may have been intended for the purpose of panning my work with a single-star rating, with the intention of hurting sales. In fact, it never revealed actual book and CD content, or discussed the 101 tunes in the book. The *reviewer* is most likely a BHO member who made very specific references to some of my ideas and slang terms in BHO forums. I see through it and have learned from it, but it underscores a broader vexing problem in educating people about traditional music from different cultures. First, some people know everything already and are unreachable. Okay.

A common misinformative approach to Celtic music, not just on BHO, is to lump all the Celtic music traditions together as one generic "folk music", with universal Western (American) chords, which is about as informative as saying that it's "music made by people" and do it this way (or be a "simpleton").

That would be a misguided, culturally arrogant approach if anyone actually fell for it.

Because we can write down chords over melodies, doesn't mean we have to be stuck playing them every time. That just goes against musical creativity and individual expression.

Some people espouse the use and mimicking of rigid chord patterns, also pounding out non-Celtic rhythms instead of actually learning non-American traditional styles or discovering how to improvise from inside an actual Celtic tradition. It's just a cultural blind spot really, at the end of the day.

Traditional bluegrass musicians can always tell when someone is faking bluegrass guitar, banjo, mandolin, dobro or fiddle. Traditional Celtic players (who probably don't call themselves that) also know when people are faking their musical and cultural traditions.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/11/2010 21:36:36

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/15/2010:  05:20:21

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This post is from another thread, getting to the heart of the matter about knowing how to back tunes. Notice a trend?

quote:

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Originally posted by banjofanatico

That was fast. Great banjo playing and the guitar chording background sounded really good - but don't tell Tom Hanway - ha, ha.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringJim

Here's a tune from a recent jam session. The guitarist, Robin McKidd, played a sock-style rhythm in the Shetland style, developed by Peerie Willie Johnson to back up fiddle tunes. Very interesting!

The banjo is by me, with Ronnie Reid on bass. (I thought someone was going to take a break the 2nd time through, hence the hesitation) Recorded by someone on a Zoom H2.

http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...usicid=15486

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Hey, 'JoFanatico, get a grip lad, you can't mischaracterize me (or my work) and get away with it forever.

I work with this tune backer, small world isn't it? Thank you for bringing up my name, even if you didn't mean to compliment me exactly. I'm onto you son! Haha!

I've done festivals with the backing guitarist here, fiddler/guitarist Robin McKidd (originally from Aberdeen, Scotland). Aren't you getting tired of shooting from the hip by now? This guy's a playing pal of mine.

Robin's a lovely guy and uses a dog leash as a guitar strap (very funny) ... and it's very fashionable. I used to *kidd* him onstage about that, and it always got a big roar out of the audience.

We've worked together at festivals in Northern Ireland and Ireland, Robin backing me on guitar, doing traditional Celtic tunes in his Shetland sock-rhythm style. A few years back, he had moved to Leitrim, the next County over from Longford.

Check it out: Robin can back tunes because he KNOWS them intimately. He's a fiddler first. That's the key - he's a tune player first, one who knows the melodies and improvises chords as he goes. He's not playing the same set of chords exactly the same way with every pass. He changes them - not playing them out of "the book"!

'JoFanatico, you really need to check your facts before shooting from the hip and inserting the ol' proverbial foot in mouth. It's getting redundant, all the misinformation and misdirection.

Thanks Jim, for the lovely tunes. Now that's what I call banjo playing!

(This is from a Sound Off! thread: http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/165775)

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 01/15/2010 05:21:21

imac50 - Posted - 01/15/2010:  12:09:03

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In Scottish music the guitar is a very late entry on the scene, though probably earlier than the 5 string banjo! The guitar only really came in the folk revival of the 60s. Prior to that accordion bands were popular for dancing but even they weren't playing chords. The second accordion played a melody or harmony rather than playing a chordal backing. A piano was often in the group and it would play chords but they would be more complicated structures than the basic guitar chords people look for. Going further back fiddles, harps and pipes were the main instruments. Most instruments were playing the melody and that is still very much the case in Scotland. Bands like Blazing Fiddles or Session A9 feature at least 4 fiddles in their line up, so the emphasis is heavy on the melody.

The famous Shetland fiddler Tom Anderson formed Da 40 Fiddlers but also performed with the legendary Peerie Willie Johnson who played a very jazz style of accompaniment. Again this wasn't until the late 50s or early 60s. Willie Johnson's influence on guitar accompaniment has been massive in Scotland bringing a different sound to accompaniments.

As Tom often says, listening to musicians is the best way to learn. Any music by the above artists will open your ears and they are just a few that come to mind.

Here's a video of Johnny and Phil Cunningham at the Smithsonian - They do play eventually but it shows how tunes are changing and do they play the right chords. (Sorry no banjo.)

http://media.smithsonianfolkways.or...0k_320_n.swf

Iain

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/21/2010:  16:55:54

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Thank you Iain. Mighty stuff, especially the two Cunninghams together.

Rest in peace Johnny. Johnny Cunningham was a lovely guy and devilish funny. He used to come down to my bluegrass jam at Paddy Reilly's in Manhattan and mix in Scottish and Shetland tunes with bluegrass and old-time standards - seamlessly. He had instant recall and facility and could cut and grin his way through up-tempo tunes that would have many a picker dying just to make the changes.

Johnny loved playing medleys of three or four tunes back to back, not in A minor (something), but in A Major, A Mixolydian, A Dorian or A Aeolian, shape-shifting flawlessly between modes, back and forth.

Without trying too, he stretched a lot of bluegrass guitar players who were stuck in chord patterns, but not used to subtle Scottish fiddle tunes that slipped in and out of closely related modes. He might mix the Irish 'Star of Munster' with the old-time 'Kitchen Girl', then go into even older Scottish tunes or veer back to old-time or maybe a driving Shetland tune.

His instrumental prowess was truly awesome and inspiring. I miss drinking whiskey with Johnny and going bar hopping, to Rocky Sullivan's and any place along the way that had good music going. He was a tireless, voracious musician and a wonderful guy just to be around, very charming, witty and humble.

Johnny was a true King of the Fiddle, creative, subtle, dynamic and irrepressible. Nobody came close to him and nobody had more fun doing it.

cgrotewohl - Posted - 01/28/2010:  18:43:50

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Hey Folks,

Original Hornpipe with my take,,,,Thanks CG

http://irishmusicon5string.homestead.com/HP2.mp3

Tom Hanway - Posted - 01/28/2010:  18:53:23

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Nice job Chris. It reminds me of both 'The Liverpool' (D) and 'Off to California' (G) , though it's obviously neither and an original. Nice clean triplets and very hornpipey!

KennyB - Posted - 01/29/2010:  08:35:08

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Iain, you've mentioned that you play key of A tunes in G tuning without a capo because often there's no time, a point that was firmly burned into my head at a recent session which jumped from G and D tunes to Mason's Apron in A, and back again while I was still adjusting.
Do you have any advice or pointers to information on melodic scales or patterns in the key of A out of G tuning?

Kenny