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aidankel - Posted - 11/24/2009: 08:08:36
Hi,
My girlfriend just bought me a new Goodtime 5 string banjo for my birthday. I've always loved the banjo sound and also wanted to learn an instrument (never played one before) so I think it was a great gift.
So I went down to my local music store (currently live in Melbourne, Australia but from Ireland) to try and get a book or dvd or something to start with.
I picked up "Starting Bluegrass Banjo" by "Robin Roller" and some picks.
This was the only book the store had at the time.
The book seems quite good and I started learning a few rolls etc. but Bluegrass isn't really the direction I want to go.
I would really appreciate it if someone could help me with where I should get started in order to learn Irish / Celtic music on the 5 string. Any books, literature etc.
Thanks in advance
Andy McC - Posted - 11/24/2009: 08:44:21
Hi there, and welcome to the hangout
I would always suggest you start with Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (Book/CD Set). It is by Tom Hanway, and he is a member of the hangout.
Andy
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/24/2009: 18:50:34
quote:
Originally posted by aidankel
Hi,
My girlfriend just bought me a new Goodtime 5 string banjo for my birthday. I've always loved the banjo sound and also wanted to learn an instrument (never played one before) so I think it was a great gift.
So I went down to my local music store (currently live in Melbourne, Australia but from Ireland) to try and get a book or dvd or something to start with.
I picked up "Starting Bluegrass Banjo" by "Robin Roller" and some picks.
This was the only book the store had at the time.
The book seems quite good and I started learning a few rolls etc. but Bluegrass isn't really the direction I want to go.
I would really appreciate it if someone could help me with where I should get started in order to learn Irish / Celtic music on the 5 string. Any books, literature etc.
Thanks in advance
Okay, thanks Andy, and aidankel, well, playing tunes on the 5-string is no easy feat for a beginner.
Since you've got the picks, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with bluegrass picking techniques. Just getting fundamentals down, Scruggs, rhythmic back-up, rolling, melodic and single-string techniques will give you the basic skills you need to develop your chops in Irish and Celtic fingerstyle playing.
Irish and Celtic music are melody oriented -- that is, "tune" oriented, which is different from playing lead and back-up in a bluegrass band.
Yet learning how to play bluegrass, having the rudiments of that tradition, will introduce you to modes, time structures, tune structures and rhythms that you will encounter in Irish and Celtic traditional forms.
I know of one player in Ireland, Paddy Kiernan (also a BHO member), who used my book from the outset, and he learned how to play from it. He also learned how to play bluegrass and fiddle tunes, so he didn't limit himself to just Irish trad and the like.
This is very involved (precise) music to play, so you have to go slowly, one tune at a time, one melodic idea at a time, so I think it's advisable you get some grounding and drilling -- that is, bluegrass training to get your timing and picking together early on. Timing is essential and bluegrass teaches that, among other things.
You can read the book/CD description on my MySpace link, click on my name here, scroll down to that link, click, scroll, and go to the Mel Bay book and simply click on that for the description. This book is available in Australia, so you may be able to get your local music shop to order it, or you can get it from that page.
I'm here for you, and we got time, just email me privately when you need something.
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/24/2009 19:01:45
aidankel - Posted - 11/24/2009: 19:17:44
Thanks Andy and Tom,
I love a challenge and it looks like this is going to be a good one.
Your book/CD is on order Tom and I hope to get it in the next week or so. I will continue to work on the bluegrass as I have been doing until I can get fairly comfortable with it.
At the moment it's just so great to hear the sound of this instrument even though I'm still only getting the basic rolls down with right hand only. When I go to the local Irish pub here for their Sunday sessions, I'm just in awe and to be able to emulate what you and those guys do in some shape of form would be amazing.
It will be no easy task I'm sure, but I'm pretty determined when it comes to things like this.
Its great that people like you guys give up your time to help out a newbie like myself.
Thanks v much,
Aidan.
AllanJ - Posted - 11/25/2009: 03:20:23
Hi Aidan
seems like there's a growing crowd of people playing session tunes on the 5-string! Tom's book (and CD) is a 'must have' and Iain MacLachlan (also of this parish) has published a book with another great set of tunes (which is on my Christmas list!).
One question that your likely to be asked at some point is why not play tenor banjo as it much more common in Irish sessions than the 5-string. I think at some sessions there might even be some hostility towards it - although I've always my local sessions very welcoming even as a beginner. I was already playing a 5-string to back songs when I heard a trad tunes session. I wanted to play a melody instrument (rather than backing) and tried to work out some of the tunes on the banjo (then I found Tom's book!). The 5-string adds another flavour to the music and works really well on slow tunes like 'Inisheer' and Carolan tunes.
It's hard stuff, playing trad tunes on the 5-string and a bit frustrating until you know a few tunes as your opportunties to join in are a bit limited. I'm just getting to the point where I know a good selection of the 'core' tunes played locally. I came to the banjo after guitar fingerpicking for a few years and I've never played bluegrass but if you have't played a finger picked instrument before then learning the rolls will be good practice. I've found it really helpful to have someone to practice with - I played with a whistle player who was learning some of the same tunes as me.
It's challenging but addictive stuff and the sound when it starts to come together is great.
Practice slow and accurate.
Allan
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/26/2009: 15:38:45
quote:
Originally posted by Andy McC
Hi there, and welcome to the hangout
I would always suggest you start with Mel Bay's Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo (Book/CD Set). It is by Tom Hanway, and he is a member of the hangout.
Andy
I rarely play this for people, but I think it's apropos for this thread. One can compose one's own Celtic tunes too; it doesn't have to be old to be traditional music. I recorded this hornpipe in Nashville, with Mark Schatz on acoustic bass and banjo, doubling the melody.
It's the happiest Celtic tune I've written, full of bounce, triplets and things that are just fun to play on a 5-string banjo. Please go to the tune-link and scroll down the .mp3 player until you find, then CLICK - all will be revealed:
Horizon HornpipeMark Schatz (the buckdancer/bass player who folks remember with Tim O'Brien and O'Boys) plays some tasty clawhammer banjo, doubling the melody later on. He learned the tune overnight, the day after he laid down the bass track. Woah! He plays accompaniment and some melody. I just stick to the tune, but I wrote it, so that's what I do, which is traditional for melody instruments in Irish and Celtic music.
It's a type of Celtic dance tune, a hornpipe, very bouncy, not from Ireland or one of the Six Celtic Nations, but from America. I guess it fits into the Celtic diaspora or it's from "Celtica" - a musical region if not an actual physical place.
Here is an example of playing Celtic music with a decidedly bluegrass ensemble. So this is definitely a musical hybrid - no harm in that.
So, is it a "traditional" tune ... homeboy? That's one for the critics and flamers to kick around - I could give a flying frisbee. Haha!
Yes, of course it's traditional, because I'm traditional and I feckin' wrote it!
};^D>
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/26/2009 16:06:55
Banjowen - Posted - 11/27/2009: 01:36:59
Great tune Tom, I enjoy playing hornpipes so this is one to learn, I wrote a hornpipe-ish tune myself a few years back which is in the tab section called "Wednesday Night Hornpipe", I tried to make it sound a little different with Cm, Dm, Bm chords, I don't really care if it isn't traditional, it's my hornpipe and it gave me great pleasure composing it, I've also had an e-mail from an HO member in Norway thanking me, saying that his band had played it in a pub/hotel and it went down very well with the audience, people should be encouraged to compose their own tunes, it's great fun but also gives you a great boost when you hear someone else playing them.
Edited by - Banjowen on 11/27/2009 01:38:41
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/27/2009: 08:51:50
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
Great tune Tom, I enjoy playing hornpipes so this is one to learn, I wrote a hornpipe-ish tune myself a few years back which is in the tab section called "Wednesday Night Hornpipe", I tried to make it sound a little different with Cm, Dm, Bm chords, I don't really care if it isn't traditional, it's my hornpipe and it gave me great pleasure composing it, I've also had an e-mail from an HO member in Norway thanking me, saying that his band had played it in a pub/hotel and it went down very well with the audience, people should be encouraged to compose their own tunes, it's great fun but also gives you a great boost when you hear someone else playing them.
Hey, thanks Owen, much appreciated. I hear you man. I'll check out your tune - sounds fun.
Even if it's not “traditional” by your own or somebody else's definition, it's still authentic Owen Duffy music, right?
It's so gratifying when people pick up your tunes and audiences also dig them. That's part of why we play and compose music - to share it and hopefully to make people feel good - no harm in that. And it's nice to get unsolicited positive reinforcement for an accomplishment. Fair play to you Owen.
The whole “traditional” topic is a difficult one because it is so contextual – that is, assuming one can see beyond his own tradition/s – and not everybody can, which leads to a lot “us vs. them” thinking. What is “traditional” is confusing and problematic because people mean different things by “traditional bluegrass”, or “Irish traditional music”, or “traditional jazz” - to name a few. All these “authentic” (another confusing term) styles of music can lay claim to the term “traditional” or “trad” but mean very different things by it. One person’s “trad” is not necessarly another’s. Trad is not always trad, even when it is! That's just one paradox.
Play traditional Scruggs-style banjo in an Irish trad session and it sounds like ... jazz or ragtime music, funnily enough. Play Irish traditional music in a jazz jam session, and it still sounds like Irish traditional music, pure and simple! Quote a melodic phrase from Irish trad (say, The Irish Washerwoman in a jazz fiddle solo, which I saw Stuff Smith do in a video), and it brings a smile to everyone's faces, and it's now jazz. Jazz musicians are free to quote from a lot of sources, and it all becomes part of jazz - authentic if not exactly original or traditional.
It doesn’t work the other way around however – it’s not reciprocal: Play a jazz saxophone or rock ‘n’ roll lick, say descending four-note groupings of pentatonic modes (in the right key), in the middle of an Irish tune, and it sticks out like a sore thumb, even if it’s musical. It is noticeably from outside the tradition and all eyes will be on you ... which could be fun, come to think of it. Haha!
Last, because I know this is getting long, play a traditional Celtic hornpipe, say, Fisher's, in a bluegrass jam, and it sounds very much like bluegrass or old-time music, and it IS bluegrass/old-time music ... from the old country – part of the inheritance in American traditional fiddle music which informs bluegrass and old-time.
Yet the way Byron Berline played Fisher's Hornpipe with the Dillards and the way a Sligo or Clare-style fiddler would play it are different because they come from quite different traditions. Berline even adds a lovely third part to Fisher's, which makes his version fresh, original (I think) and still authentic.
Personal tradition (what we call “style”) lies at the core of all tradition and all traditional music. Originality and authenticity are not mutually exclusive terms. One can be original and authentic.
Here's the paradox: If one is simply imitating others' music, is that really authentic? Of course it is traditional in the strictest sense and it is something that others in the tradition can recognise and play along with. There’s great satisfaction and accomplishment in that, just being part of the tradition and having a body of tunes. It’s hard work! That’s what sessions are all about and it’s a community of shared interests and tunes. It’s a scene and a lifestyle. But one’s musicality can also get lost or buried in the mix, subsumed by the totality, volume of tunes and relentless momentum of the scene.
Here’s my point: In uniqueness, such as writing a tune, is personal tradition and personal authenticity. It’s when we add a bit of ourselves to the music that we become truly authentic (not less authentic), being creative collaborators in a living tradition and not mere passive holders of it. So again, good on you Owen, for being whom you are. It's a good message for folks who are just finding their feet in a tradition, whether it be Irish trad, old-time, bluegrass, jazz or rock 'n' roll.
};^D>
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/27/2009 11:33:00
Bill Rogers - Posted - 11/27/2009: 11:19:09
The "traditional" musicians most players try to emulate generally had no hesitation in revamping tunes, adding new parts or varying the melody. They didn't worry about damaging the tradition because, as Tom notes, they were part of it. Really, we all are, it's just that we now have means of transmission through recordings and broadcasts that were unavailable in the past. Because of the permanence of recordings, modern players in traditional styles are often concerned about departing too much from the recorded source. But such departures really are traditional.
KennyB - Posted - 11/27/2009: 12:00:47
I play my 5 string with a couple of Irish/Celtic jam sessions, started just over a year ago. I had a couple of comments early on about why a 5 string and not a tenor, but nobody says much about it any more. I still like bluegrass, but Celtic sessions are easier for me to find.
I took lessons a while back, using Jack Hatfield's Bluegrass Banjo Method books 1 and 2, which as my instructor said at the outset, provided the basics for bluegrass, and any other direction I would chose to go.
After those lessons, I tried to learn what I could find in the melodic style, then discovered these Celtic sessions. I started mostly with chords, either vamping or backup rolls, and slowly started learning the melodies. I'm almost as fast at learning a tune from standard notation as from tablature by now. I don't think I'll ever be able to sight-read either at full speed.
The 5-string/Celtic combination might be a little rare, but definitely not unique. Along with Tom Hanway, and Iain MacLachlan, already mentioned in this thread, Chris Grotewohl and Alan Johnson have written books on it. Samples available online lead me to believe the Alan Johnson's style would be the best suited to me, but I can't seem to find availability of his book anywhere.
There are a few inspirational videos on youtube of Irish/Celtic music on 5 string, search for "Leon Hunt", "Ron Hughes banjo", and "Dave Hum" for starters, and there's lots of Celtic clawhammer, but I'm a finger-picker.
So I'd say learn the basics from the readily available bluegrass instruction, after all basics is basics.
mikey5string - Posted - 11/27/2009: 20:37:46
a couple players you might want to look up (besides tom) are chris grotewhal and tony furtado.
tony f is what go me into even thinking about playing irish tunes on the 5 string. specifically a set he does of "jennys wedding/rakish paddy". it is amazing. this in turn led me to discover paddy keenan (a ulliean piper) you can really hear how tony attempts to mimic the pipes. he does a great job with the ornamentation.
tassiespirit - Posted - 11/28/2009: 01:54:40
Hi aidankel,
I am in Tassie , down here we have a place that gets in a lot of stuff for most folk style instruments called Celtic Southern Cross. Here is the link as they may be of some help: - http://www.celt.com.au/
My advice is as already stated up above, get the chords and rolls down - they never go astry, then find you own thing!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/28/2009: 05:55:55
I am familiar with all these amazing players that folks have mentioned. Tony Furtado is an exceptionally gifted player with an adept fretting hand, capable of extremely wide stretches combining dexterity with strength. He really works the fretting hand and doesn't make the music fit into picking-hand roll patterns. It's like a jazz-guitar- approach in terms of blocking notes, mixed with a contemporary banjo picking style – state of the art – doing whatever it takes to get the desired sound. When you see him do it, it looks very difficult (left hand), but he makes it sound so easy. That’s the drilling he puts into it – no sloppiness – and it is testament to his bluegrass training.
Chris Grotewohl is another original and talented player who uses the 5-string like a tenor banjo, playing precise melodies and triplets, focusing his efforts on the long strings, avoiding the fifth string and things like roll patterns, Scruggs-style licks and bluegrass melodic (legato) devices. His is more of a staccato single-string approach on four strings and serves to make the 5-string sound more like the traditional Irish banjo, though in a slightly higher range. He also plays Irish tenor banjo so his playing is multifaceted, versatile and well informed.
Alan Johnson is another strong player who combines all manner of Celtic fingerstyle techniques, not focusing on single-string playing as Chris does, but using a more legato-melodic approach. He loves playing triplets across strings and he uses a lot of open strings. Like myself, Alan sometimes focuses on finding melody on the first four strings, especially for a D reel like ‘The Bucks’, avoiding the fifth string until he finds a way to work it in unnoticed. But he also uses a lot of fifth string on other tunes. He doesn’t use as many blocked notes and positions as I would, preferring to play across the strings (roll-like) and keep the banjo ringing. This style has a highly evolved picking hand and uses more blocked chord positions than my own, though some of our tabs are nearly identical. I do more single-string using TI, TIT, TIM and TIMI picking-hand patterns – the Noam Pikelny route. It just makes sense for the faster tunes and works nicely for some of the jigs.
Iain Mac Lachlan is another early pioneer in playing Celtic fingerstyle banjo, especially Ceilidh tunes, for dancers. He never uses a capo and has a very elegant and precise approach, playing bare bones melody in strict Scottish time. He and Alan have very similar approaches in the use of picking-hand patterns, but Iain doesn't get into the heavy ornamentation that Alan does, instead using an economy of motion in the fretting hand - so much so that it doesn't even look as if he's picking up any of his fingers, especially when he's playing a reel in A without a capo. It's beautiful streamlined stuff and a very Highland approach. There's no wasted expense or extravagance. (Double entendre - sorry Iain - I couldn't resist.)
Rex McGee is another astounding multi-instrumentalist who can play Irish and Celtic music immaculately, in a highly evolved original style that maybe only he comprehends. He’s even got his own tunings – a logical original approach that few would dare to follow. He is a composer and loves to tune the banjo in fifths, so watch out. One tuning he likes is FCFCF (from low to high). He’s just awesome, on banjo and fiddle.
Leon Hunt is yet another force of nature, a Béla-style player, with great taste and sensitivity, so you can imagine what skills and musicality he brings to Irish and Celtic tunes. He’s working on a book, so stay tuned.
Don’t forget Tony Trischka, Alison Brown, Paddy Kiernan (20 years old studying in Dublin), Ron Hughes (a gifted composer) and Dave Hum who has an earthy fingerstyle approach, not being afraid to play double-stops or throw in the descending Bobby Thompson lick. I love his use of agile grace notes in the form of pull-offs on the first string.
These are not all of the players that are out there doing this, but it demonstrates that there are many approaches to playing Irish & Celtic music on the 5-string, and they’re all working in various ways.
It’s an exciting time to be developing and teaching Irish and Celtic fingerstyle and I feel blessed to be doing it – watching it blossom across continents, even “down under” in a vital part of the Celtic Diaspora. Guitarist Steve Cooney, one of the strongest Irish tune backers on the planet, residing in Ireland, is from Melbourne, Australia. He is another force of nature. There are so many great players out there taking up this music and bringing it to dizzying new heights.
The trick I think is to listen to a lot of it, one tune at a time, and not focus solely on banjo players, one instrument or one style of playing. It's way too broad and rich for that. I get tune and ornamentation ideas from uilleann pipers, whistle players, fiddlers, accordionists, harpers, tenor banjoists and even bodhrán players. It's all good but you've got to listen to it and let it seep into your soul.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/28/2009 06:16:16
imac50 - Posted - 11/28/2009: 06:32:54
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
There's no wasted expense or extravagance. (Double entendre - sorry Iain - I couldn't resist.)
};^D>
Tom
Sounds like that should be the Clan motto, Tom, in stead of Fortify and Feed Us. (Fortis Et Fidus). I agree with all that is being said here. There are many ways of playing the music and though the 5 string is new to the game it has the same value as any other instrument. It isn't easy to play the tunes on the 5 but as all the players above mentioned have proved it is possible. I was fortunate to see Tony Furtado last week in Scotland and got to chat to him a bit. I managed to pass him my book so that he could learn how to do it properly! (Ha! Ha!) As Tom has said I go for the minimalist approach as much as possible. Some of the playing we do is fairly quick and the less I move the less I have of falling off the fretboard.
I'm a great advocate for writing your own music. I have written a number of tunes but only one is in my book. There is a set of jigs on my homepage with 5 tunes in it. Going through the keys of G, E, A , Am and D/Dm. Sort of a circle of 5ths thing. You can get it here -
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=8856#Anyway, it's good that people are trying different music on the banjo. So buy my book and you will be all the better for it!
Celtic Tune Encyclopedia for 5-String Banjo http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=21275All the best
Iain
Banjowen - Posted - 11/28/2009: 07:39:07
Iain, your book looks interesting, would I be able to order it direct from you.
Edited by - Banjowen on 11/28/2009 07:40:46
imac50 - Posted - 11/28/2009: 08:19:12
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
Iain, your book looks interesting, would I be able to order it direct from you.
Owen, I'm waiting for some copies to be sent to me at the moment. I'll drop you an email when they come.
Iain
Banjowen - Posted - 11/28/2009: 09:59:27
Cheers Iain ....
banjofanatico - Posted - 11/28/2009: 10:33:57
I doubt the "nouveau flamenco" players who play flamenco in a jazz style really care if flamenco die-hards say their music isn't "traditional". Some people are more interested in the music than the labels. There is improvisation other than jazz improvisation. Hundreds of years ago musicians were improvising to "Greensleeves" and they weren't playing jazz. I don't see why one couldn't improvise Irish music as well - in its own style. I'm not saying there are many Irish players who are able to do so, but it's possible - I guess if one thinks outside the box.
David
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/30/2009: 07:50:53
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
I doubt the "nouveau flamenco" players who play flamenco in a jazz style really care if flamenco die-hards say their music isn't "traditional". Some people are more interested in the music than the labels. There is improvisation other than jazz improvisation. Hundreds of years ago musicians were improvising to "Greensleeves" and they weren't playing jazz. I don't see why one couldn't improvise Irish music as well - in its own style. I'm not saying there are many Irish players who are able to do so, but it's possible - I guess if one thinks outside the box.
David
David is spot-on as regards improvisation. It's important, however, to distinguish between traditions, instruments, actual players and time-frames to have meaningful discussions that focus on the nuances of personal style and improvisation (beyond labels). A word to the wise: It's easy to parrot sweeping statements that don't take us outside the box even while alluding to it. Séamus Egan from Solas talks about "peeling back the layers of the onion." Séamus is a contemporary master at improvisation who won the All-Ireland championship on four different instruments by the time he was 14. It's always been about artistic license for Séamus, but within well-understood parameters.
Today many of the top players in Irish trad improvise constantly and add personal variations with great ease, for which they are highly regarded. They are indeed masters of spontaneous improvisation but within certain parameters that are quite different from how a contemporary jazz musician would improvise. Improvisation means vastly different things for different styles of music, for different instruments, and for different regional styles.
The notion of "thinking outside the box" doesn't tell us much, though you hear it all the time. When combined with getting "into the music" (not being concerned with "labels"), it becomes a mushy mixed metaphor. It's in the details of style that we really learn about the actual music.
David is correct. A lot of music from bygone eras was largely improvised, and this is true for many musical cultures and subcultures today. In many non-European cultures, music is largely improvised, to greater and lesser degrees. That's not for this thread, so I'll leave it.
As regards Irish and Celtic musical traditions, we must not conflate instruments, regional, and individual playing styles.
For example, the slithery piping ornamentation known as cranning is not something that is easily achieved on any of the other traditional instruments used to play Irish music - not even the fiddle. Piper Jerry O'Sullivan, also being a whistle player, taught me his approximations of cranning on the whistle, which were really rhythmic variations, reducing and simplifying the various types of melismata that he might play on the pipes. Cranning on the pipes is not a single approach and can mean different things, depending on the tune, tempo, mood and skill of the piper.
When fiddlers, flute players, whistle players and pipers play together, it is unlikely that they will be playing the same tune exactly the same way, especially if the piper is playing in an open-style and really pouring on the ornamentation, in which case, none of the other instruments will be able to keep up with all the intricacies of melismatic, rhythmic and intervallic variation.
A banjoist whose instrument is tuned in fifths, being aligned with the fiddle in terms of note positions on the neck, will have an easier time following the basic contours of fiddling, though triplets and quadruplets are often substituted for the more intricate ornamentational devices used on fiddle, such as single and double grace notes, short rolls, birlin' (used mainly in Scottish fiddling), long rolls (a "turn" used especially in Sligo-style fiddling), and even more exotic ornamentation, e.g., Scottish syncopated triplets and Scots snaps (the reverse of a dotted eighth note).
What is a "short roll" on a fiddle, a graced triplet (first note graced), can be played as an even quadruplet on a tenor banjo. This can be done on a five string, with diligent practice. In truth it's not that easy on either instrument, and many a tenor banjo player would simply leave it as a plain triplet, leaving more complex ornamentation to the fiddle, pipes and whistle.
It's possible on the 5-string to slide up to the first note of the triplet, getting in the grace note before the slide. Pulling off and hammering on can also work, but this could be awkward and the audible effects may not be worth the extra effort, depending on tempo. If it's a tune slowed down as an "air", played with rubato, then more ornamentational devices can come into play.
I could go on about more ornamentational minutiae though suffice it to say that traditional tune players do not improvise in the same way: They don't.
I would add that unless musicians rehearse and listen to each other, smoothing out and aligning their variations on tunes, no two players, no two instruments will be playing the same melodic contours or variations, because these things are wide open to stylistic, regional, instrumentational and individual variations. Everything, upon closer examination, has slight variations, even if it is not consciously improvised.
Some sessions, especially at the big festivals and fleadhs, can seem like a cacophony of regional and individual variations, where nobody seems to be playing exactly the same tune.
Improvising and adding personal variations is easy on any instrument, and it requires long hours of listening, private study, practice, more practice, trial and error, and perseverance. The rewards are worth it in the end. In Irish trad, uilleann piping may be the most physically challenging instrument, as far as I can tell. It's extremely gratifying to play 5-string, to study and borrow as much as one can from pipers, fiddlers and all the instruments and traditions.
It is such a wide open field for improvisation – call it artistic license. It goes well beyond "thinking outside the box." It's also about learning to improvise within the box - not repeating old clichés but playing real music in the moment.
"One tune at a time," as Sligo-style fiddling maestro Tony DeMarco likes to say.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/30/2009 08:33:33
jmod - Posted - 11/30/2009: 15:37:04
I am not sure if you have decided on what you want your "sound" to exactly be, but I would decide that first. Find some folks to emulate in the beginning. Someone great to listen to who really does a fantastic job with combining banjo and celtic sounds is Leonard Podolak from the Duhks. I would pickup some of their earlier stuff especially and listen. He plays clawhammer, so if you are set on playing three finger then it may not be what you are looking for, but it is some fantastic stuff that will give some direction and motivation. However, I will echo some of the other forum members, Irish trad. is not the easiest place to start with on 5-string banjo. But personally, I think if it is your goal you should really consider looking at clawhammer and as you develop start picking up some Ken Perlman books. He is one of the masters of fiddle tunes for banjo.
Good Luck, I hope you love it!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 11/30/2009: 20:51:52
quote:
Originally posted by aidankel
Thanks Andy and Tom,
I love a challenge and it looks like this is going to be a good one.
Your book/CD is on order Tom and I hope to get it in the next week or so. I will continue to work on the bluegrass as I have been doing until I can get fairly comfortable with it.
At the moment it's just so great to hear the sound of this instrument even though I'm still only getting the basic rolls down with right hand only. When I go to the local Irish pub here for their Sunday sessions, I'm just in awe and to be able to emulate what you and those guys do in some shape of form would be amazing.
It will be no easy task I'm sure, but I'm pretty determined when it comes to things like this.
Its great that people like you guys give up your time to help out a newbie like myself.
Thanks v much,
Aidan.
Aidan, I appreciate that you have my book/CD on order. Let me know when it comes in (privately) and I'll help you get started inside.
I have the *skeleton key* to picking the easiest tunes in it so that you don't start off with something too advanced (for a beginner). Many of the tunes are beginner accessible, while others will have to come later. This is true for the jigs, reels, hornpipes, slides and polkas, even the O'Carolan tunes. The strathspeys are really tricky because of the timing.
Another adept 3-fingerstyle Celtic player that nobody mentioned (that uses fingerpicks) is Tony Arcaro (Tony O'), who has some lovely Irish tabs. Tony is especially fond of O'Carolan tunes and Classical pieces. You can google him. He doesn't just have a Celtic influence or sound somewhat Celtic at times. He has precise Celtic tabs and is extremely organized in his approach.
Ken Perlman is great for clawhammer style, the master who has written the most on this subject for clawhammer. I suggest you check out his recordings first, then his tabs, not that you have to play clawhammer (if you don't want to) to benefit from his tabbed arrangements, which often use standard G tuning (though not always).
The big problem with using a lot of old-time tunings for playing Irish trad is that you can't keep up at sessions if you have to keep re-tuning between tunes. It's okay if you're playing a concert and can stop to talk to the audience, or stop to pick up another banjo tuned differently, but it's a real problem at flying sessions if you're constantly stopping to re-tune to a different old-time tuning and/or capo to keep up with the various modes and keys used in even a single tune medley, then doing that with every medley, all night long. It's a bummer. It's impossible to keep up and it's disruptive to a session to be re-tuning constantly in between tunes. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Having said that, Ken Perlman is the man, one of my heroes.
I have the Irish and Celtic modes, standard tune types and types of ornamentation and variation explained in full detail in the glossary to Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo.
Please find a sample of my original Celtic hornpipe here: HORIZON HORNPIPE
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 11/30/2009 21:00:00
imac50 - Posted - 12/01/2009: 02:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Ken Perlman is great for clawhammer style, the master who has written the most on this subject for clawhammer. I suggest you check out his recordings first, then his tabs, not that you have to play clawhammer (if you don't want to) to benefit from his tabbed arrangements, which often use standard G tuning (though not always).
The big problem with using a lot of old-time tunings for playing Irish trad is that you can't keep up at sessions if you have to keep re-tuning between tunes. It's okay if you're playing a concert and can stop to talk to the audience, or stop to pick up another banjo tuned differently, but it's a real problem at flying sessions if you're constantly stopping to re-tune to a different old-time tuning and/or capo to keep up with the various modes and keys used in even a single tune medley, then doing that with every medley, all night long. It's a bummer. It's impossible to keep up and it's disruptive to a session to be re-tuning constantly in between tunes. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Having said that, Ken Perlman is the man, one of my heroes.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom[/font=Trebuchet MS]
I totally agree with Tom in this. In some situations where there is time to capo or retune then there isn't a problem. However, in most sessions and in the dances we play at, there is no space to retune. I have seen Gerry O'Connor slide a capo into place during a set so it is possible provided someone else is keeping the tune going for you to catch up. I use a capo in bluegrass but don't when playing in the ceilidh situation.
Ken Perlman is remarkable in his playing, I agree!
Ronnie - Posted - 12/01/2009: 08:39:53
I try to tune in to Thistle and Shamrock on NPR Sunday evenings. A few weeks ago there was an interesting interview with Alison Brown about the banjo in Celtic music. Last Sunday Pete Seeger was featured.
Banjowen - Posted - 12/01/2009: 11:07:15
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
quote:
Originally posted by aidankel
Thanks Andy and Tom,
I love a challenge and it looks like this is going to be a good one.
Your book/CD is on order Tom and I hope to get it in the next week or so. I will continue to work on the bluegrass as I have been doing until I can get fairly comfortable with it.
At the moment it's just so great to hear the sound of this instrument even though I'm still only getting the basic rolls down with right hand only. When I go to the local Irish pub here for their Sunday sessions, I'm just in awe and to be able to emulate what you and those guys do in some shape of form would be amazing.
It will be no easy task I'm sure, but I'm pretty determined when it comes to things like this.
Its great that people like you guys give up your time to help out a newbie like myself.
Thanks v much,
Aidan.
Aidan, I appreciate that you have my book/CD on order. Let me know when it comes in (privately) and I'll help you get started inside.
I have the *skeleton key* to picking the easiest tunes in it so that you don't start off with something too advanced (for a beginner). Many of the tunes are beginner accessible, while others will have to come later. This is true for the jigs, reels, hornpipes, slides and polkas, even the O'Carolan tunes. The strathspeys are really tricky because of the timing.
Another adept 3-fingerstyle Celtic player that nobody mentioned (that uses fingerpicks) is Tony Arcaro (Tony O'), who has some lovely Irish tabs. Tony is especially fond of O'Carolan tunes and Classical pieces. You can google him. He doesn't just have a Celtic influence or sound somewhat Celtic at times. He has precise Celtic tabs and is extremely organized in his approach.
Ken Perlman is great for clawhammer style, the master who has written the most on this subject for clawhammer. I suggest you check out his recordings first, then his tabs, not that you have to play clawhammer (if you don't want to) to benefit from his tabbed arrangements, which often use standard G tuning (though not always).
The big problem with using a lot of old-time tunings for playing Irish trad is that you can't keep up at sessions if you have to keep re-tuning between tunes. It's okay if you're playing a concert and can stop to talk to the audience, or stop to pick up another banjo tuned differently, but it's a real problem at flying sessions if you're constantly stopping to re-tune to a different old-time tuning and/or capo to keep up with the various modes and keys used in even a single tune medley, then doing that with every medley, all night long. It's a bummer. It's impossible to keep up and it's disruptive to a session to be re-tuning constantly in between tunes. Being forewarned is being forearmed. Having said that, Ken Perlman is the man, one of my heroes.
I have the Irish and Celtic modes, standard tune types and types of ornamentation and variation explained in full detail in the glossary to Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo.
Please find a sample of my original Celtic hornpipe here: HORIZON HORNPIPE
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom
Tom, I have your CD "Tom Hanway & Blue Horizon" as well as your book which as I've said before is superb for anyone interested in Irish/Celtic music played on the 5-string banjo, I just wish that the Horizon Horpipe had been included in it as it's quickly become a favourite of mine, I don't suppose you have the tab do you as it would save me having to try and work it out with my tired old brain which could take weeks instead of hours.
Julian44_4 - Posted - 12/01/2009: 11:50:37
You will find a selection of Irish Celtic Tabs, midis and PDFs at the following link under the Paul Slater menu
http://www.clawhammerbanjotab.co.uk
Also Melbays Complete Clawhammer Banjo Book by Lisa Schmitz and Alec Slater has many Irish Celtic Tabs
cassette available.
David
Edited by - Julian44_4 on 12/01/2009 11:53:51
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/01/2009: 16:39:33
quote:
Originally posted by Julian44_4
You will find a selection of Irish Celtic Tabs, midis and PDFs at the following link under the Paul Slater menu
http://www.clawhammerbanjotab.co.uk
Also Mel Bay's Complete Clawhammer Banjo Book by Lisa Schmitz and Alec Slater has many Irish Celtic Tabs
Cassette available.
David
That's an interesting clawhammer-frailing book. It has thought-provoking sections like "Irish Style Appalachian" ... "Irish Modal" ... "Appalachian Modal" and even has Cape Breton, Scottish and Shetland tunes – some very cool tunes that you wouldn't normally expect to find in a clawhammer book.quote:
Tom, I have your CD "Tom Hanway & Blue Horizon" as well as your book which as I've said before is superb for anyone interested in Irish/Celtic music played on the 5-string banjo, I just wish that the Horizon Hornpipe had been included in it as it's quickly become a favourite of mine, I don't suppose you have the tab do you as it would save me having to try and work it out with my tired old brain which could take weeks instead of hours.
Owen, thanks for asking. You know, I never did tab this, which is weird because I usually tab my tunes so I don't lose them.
I have an idea that will help to distill the melody, where it's especially pronounced because several lead instruments are playing it in unison, a typical trait of Celtic music, as you know.
Okay, please go to 1:38 - third tune down on the .mp3 player - to Horizon Hornpipe, to the top of the A section. Both the mandolin (Todd Collins) and clawhammer banjo (Mark Schatz) kick in loudly and we play the melody in happy unison, and there's good separation in the mix so you can really hear all three instruments clearly, at, I repeat, 1:38:
HORIZON HORNPIPE
Schatz has a few drones that poke out where he hits the fifth string clawhammer style, but they're obvious and give it a really nice old-timey bounce. Carolyn Dutton adds fiddle on top of the banjo, in unison, for the B section. Earlier in the song Todd Collins plays some really lovely counterpoint, which he convinced me would work, and he got it. I wouldn't normally do that for a Celtic tune, but Todd had a basic idea and also improvised a bit for the recording and he pulled it off in the studio, but it's confusing if you're looking for the plain melody, which is why I say to go to 1:38 for the very last break.
When I recorded it, I was re-tuning the instrument, with the fifth string up to A, no capo and playing out of D, but I later discovered that it was also possible to get the melody and triplets, actually making them easier, without re-tuning, just using standard G tuning, which is a good way to do it. However, it's a little trickier when you go way up the neck, because you cannot pedal the A note on the fifth string, so you have to be really quick and precise in your position shifts.
The easiest way is to capo just the fifth string to A, but don't tune it up to A.
As far as a tab goes, I can't release one because it's on the list of tunes going into an upcoming Mel Bay book, which will be hornpipes and Celtic tunes that aren't jigs and reels, which is my current book/CD project. I need to save this tune for Mel Bay because I don't have that many original hornpipes, and this is the best of them. Sorry about that.
But the secret to learning this tune is this post. It's not that tricky if you capo up to A. The top of the B section just works out of basic chord positions and climbs up the neck on the first three strings, with triplets inserted into the rolls. Once you get the basic pattern, you just move to the next chord, from A (5th fret) to D (7th fret) then up to G then to E.
The fancy triplet is TIT on strings 2, 2, 3, the last thumb strike leading into a forward roll on strings 3, 2 and 1, then repeating that pattern with the following rhythm:
1 & a 2 & 3 & a 4 &
T I T I M T I T I M
Tip: You can leave out the triplets and get the bare bones melody, and then add them later, once you have all basic rolls together and position shift down.
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
I T I M I T I M
I didn't actually write it this way, but it's the obvious substitution; the tune actually started with the triplets in the A section and took off on its own momentum. Horizon Hornpipe just wrote itself. I just happened to be holding the banjo at the time!
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/02/2009 01:33:33
Banjowen - Posted - 12/02/2009: 01:33:02
Thanks for the tips Tom, I'll give it a whirl , I'll look forward to your new book, meanwhile I'll have Iains new book to keep me busy,...thanks again.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/02/2009: 04:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
Thanks for the tips Tom, I'll give it a whirl, I'll look forward to your new book, meanwhile I'll have Iain's new book to keep me busy,...thanks again.
Owen, my pleasure. I think because of your experience tabbing and figuring tunes out by ear, this won't be hard for you, though it will take some more listening and a wee bit of patience. No biggie.
It's not a fast or complicated melody, so I think a good strategy (for anybody) is to keep listening (patiently) and get the notes, or at least the main notes in your head first. That way you don't have to keep going back, though it's good to go back later and double check. I try to learn whole blocks of notes or phrases, then put them together. This saves a lot of time and really gives you the feel for a tune. It’s not learning one or two notes at time in an unmusical way. Learning to hear melodic contours, phrases and licks is a shortcut for learning all kinds of music, unless it’s completely atonal, and then who gives a toss, because there’s no melody anyway. It ain’t ‘Toss the Feathers’!
So, anyway, this is always a sound strategy folks for learning tunes: Get them in your head first, as much as you can, then try to get them “under your fingers” to borrow Tony Trischka’s expression. Tune playing begins with listening, finding tunes you like, and soaking them up to the point that you can hum or lilt them – another Irish tradition. After that, all kinds of variations become obvious. If you forget a tune that you once played – and we all do at times – just listening to it again can bring it back to your fingers faster because you learned it that way from the get-go – not by being spoon-fed tab (Gerber’s), as Jody Hughes likes to point out. His is great advice. It’s about training one’s ears to pick up music on their own. The “ear” too gets better and more discerning with practice. One can learn to spot tunes, modes and phrases immediately with regular practice.
In Chapter Three: Mode and Method in Living Tradition, in Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo, echoing the “received wisdom” of many traditional players and authors, I wrote:
"In Celtic music, especially Irish traditional music, players who make interesting use of ornamentation and variation are highly regarded. To play the same ornamented version of a tune over and over would become tedious and show a lack of creativity, even if the performance were flawlessly and utterly traditional. A player who adds a personal touch to the music is also a creative collaborator in the living tradition. The point is that it is better to experiment, even to make mistakes in the pursuit of a richer musicality, than to play everything by rote.
Each tune setting in this book – as played on the CD – is skeletal, and in a sense, incomplete. You must flesh it out. Each transcription has something to offer but must not be considered an exhaustive or definitive setting. It's impossible to catch the myriad possibilities of a traditional tune by a single performance, recording, or printed version of it. Yet with each attempt at a tune something can be gained, even so-called mistakes can lead to new ideas and become the springboard for future variations that introduce new possibilities for future explorations.
As tunes are shared between players, some features may be lost while others are added. Over centuries, whole tune families have evolved by such a process, and new tunes, undoubtedly, will continue to emerge as young players share and blend their unique variations of tunes with one another. Many traditional players also compose their own tunes when the mood strikes!"
Good luck and happy listening,
Tom
Paul Roberts - Posted - 12/04/2009: 22:30:04
Playing Irish tunes on the 5-string is tricky. A tenor is infinitely more versatile for dialing in a repertoire. Before I got a tenor, I took one of my 5-strings and put the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings from a steel string guitar set on it. I tuned it so that it would come out GDAE capoed at the 5th fret. Worked like a charm as an Irish tenor. On the Goodtime, you'd probably not want to go higher gauge than light, maybe lighter. I used mediums on a tubaphone.
Once you learn how to read music on an instrument tuned GDAE, a world of thousands of tunes opens up instantly.
On a 5-string you can't get to the point where everything becomes simple, like on a 4 (once you get your technique down).
PauL http://www.banjocrazy.com/
Banjowen - Posted - 12/05/2009: 09:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Roberts
Playing Irish tunes on the 5-string is tricky. A tenor is infinitely more versatile for dialing in a repertoire. Before I got a tenor, I took one of my 5-strings and put the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings from a steel string guitar set on it. I tuned it so that it would come out GDAE capoed at the 5th fret. Worked like a charm as an Irish tenor. On the Goodtime, you'd probably not want to go higher gauge than light, maybe lighter. I used mediums on a tubaphone.
Once you learn how to read music on an instrument tuned GDAE, a world of thousands of tunes opens up instantly.
On a 5-string you can't get to the point where everything becomes simple, like on a 4 (once you get your technique down).
PauL http://www.banjocrazy.com/
Defeatist,
Banjowen - Posted - 12/06/2009: 02:27:16
If you enjoy playing Celtic music such as is in Tom Hanways Irish and Celtic Music for 5 String Banjo, treat yourself this Christmas to Iain MacLachlan's Celtic Tune Encylopedia and you wont be disappointed, I've just got my copy and found it to be full of real good tunes,(there's almost100 to choose from) some are a little trickier than others but all are doable with a little effort, If you enjoy playing jigs,reels,hornpipes,strathspey's etc..in single string/melodic style then this book is a must, plus Iain like Tom is a Hangout member and both are only to happy to give advice on the single string/melodic style of playing Celtic music on the 5 string banjo.
banjofanatico - Posted - 12/06/2009: 17:26:34
I'm not sure I would want a music book of complicated tunes, if it has no chord symbols in it, to echo the other poster who wondered why there were no chord symbols. The chord symbols helps one learn the tune by playing with accompianment. It's hard to learn a tune by just playing a bunch of single notes - but I guess one has to uphold the ancient traditions.
I was recently given a copy of "50 tunes for banjo - Traditional, Old Time, Bluegrass & Celtic Solos"
(mel bay) and am really impressed with it. It has great bluegrass and celtic tunes and doesn't set up artificial barriers between styles of music, so on one page you might be playing a bluegrass tune and and the next an Irish tune. And guess what ? - it has chord symbols ! I guess they didn't get the memo that it violates the rules. Also, the muscianship is above average. Here is an example of a tune called "Angus Campbell" :
http://www.baysidepress.com/audio/99939bcdpg9.mp3
David
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/06/2009: 20:20:02
ABCDEFG
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/07/2009: 06:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
If you enjoy playing Celtic music such as is in Tom Hanway's Irish and Celtic Music for 5 String Banjo, treat yourself this Christmas to Iain MacLachlan's Celtic Tune Encylopedia and you wont be disappointed, I've just got my copy and found it to be full of real good tunes,(there's almost100 to choose from) some are a little trickier than others but all are doable with a little effort, If you enjoy playing jigs,reels,hornpipes,strathspey's etc..in single string/melodic style then this book is a must, plus Iain like Tom is a Hangout member and both are only to happy to give advice on the single string/melodic style of playing Celtic music on the 5 string banjo.
Thanks Owen - much appreciated!
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
I'm not sure I ... want a music book of ... tunes, if it has no chord symbols ... to echo the ... poster who wondered why there were no chord symbols. The chord symbols helps one learn the tune by playing with accompaniment. It's hard to learn a tune by just playing a bunch of single notes - but I guess one has to uphold the ancient traditions.
I was recently given a copy of "50 tunes for banjo - Traditional, Old Time, Bluegrass & Celtic Solos" (Mel Bay) and am really impressed with it. It has great bluegrass and Celtic tunes and doesn't set up artificial barriers between styles of music [emphasis added], so on one page you might be playing a bluegrass tune and and the next an Irish tune. And guess what ? - it has chord symbols ! I guess they didn't get the memo that it violates the rules. Also, the muscianship is above average. Here is an example of a tune called "Angus Campbell" :
http://www.baysidepress.com/audio/99939bcdpg9.mp3
David
Hey, now I know who wrote the actual “memo” in the online review.
Don’t ask anybody to move banjofanatico's post for falling into a “product review”, which one might see as such. It falls short of a single product review because it does not give us full details of any of the products to which it alludes, though it obliquely serves as a proper “diss” to a chordless category of product. It’s easy to undermine a work or author with a quick quip – much harder to write your own book or record a CD.
The “almost product review” is not coming from a book author (or Mel Bay writer) but an educated consumer who is entitled to voice his opinion. Fair enough. He is not alone in his views, of that I am sure, and I can agree with him about some things, but not everything.
Probably out of a sense of shared goals and love for traditional music from many diverse cultures, Celtic tune book authors wouldn’t do this to each other: We wouldn’t set up a straw man and then slay it with sardonic glee, i.e., making up the transparent argument that some writers are “set[ting] artificial barriers between styles of music.”
The Mel Bay authors in Banjo Hangout (some on this thread) have great admiration for one another, give reciprocal respect to and even learn from each others’ works. Iain Mac Lachlan and I, for example, are great fans of one another’s works, and we’re great friends. We like playing together and helping each other. And we hope to help folks here as best we can. We’re teachers, not critics, and we learn from others here too. I can honestly say that we are not closed-minded and we still have beginner's mind (or at least some mind left). We're lucky, we're not jaded, we're not dead.
We don’t shoot down others because somebody leaves out (substitutable) chords in a TUNE book, whose focus is precisely on melodies (not chords). By the way, none of the O'Neill's Irish collections give chords, because they're not about chords. The chords are incidental to the tunes, in both traditional and contemporary styles. Some folks never learn that.
We know when critics are shooting from the hip ... with an axe to grind. Valid points can still be made through sardonic humor and emotionalism. It’s the duty of authors and caring teachers to consider these things and reply with candor and accuracy, showing greater respect for detail, not less.
So let’s look a bit deeper, shall we, returning to this assertion:
“It has bluegrass and [C]eltic tunes and doesn't set up artificial barriers between styles of music.”
Wait a minute – that’s some assertion to make, and why are these so-called barriers “artificial”? Where’s the book or magazine article on that? It’s a real zinger, but it comes full circle, and guess who it bites in the tuckus?
Who is setting up “artificial barriers” while attempting to sway and divide people’s opinion?
It's poppycock, and it boils down to this: We are being offered a melting pot theory of traditional music – beyond "artificial barriers", where everything is, presumably, everything.
*yawn*
Setting up “artificial barriers” arguments and putting others' works in a "don't want that" category is maybe more divisive than helpful, more screen-image posturing than book writing. It’s some clever trick in the matrix-cave of BHO. Let's see what's in the book, shall we, the positive part of the screed? Haha!
Please see my next post - two books that deal with chords in different ways, relevant to our discussion of Irish and Celtic tunes. It would be too long to put here. Point made.
Nobody has all the tunes, but everybody has a piece of the tradition.
};^D>
Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/07/2009 08:23:23
imac50 - Posted - 12/07/2009: 08:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
I'm not sure I would want a music book of complicated tunes, if it has no chord symbols in it, to echo the other poster who wondered why there were no chord symbols. The chord symbols helps one learn the tune by playing with accompianment. It's hard to learn a tune by just playing a bunch of single notes - but I guess one has to uphold the ancient traditions.
I was recently given a copy of "50 tunes for banjo - Traditional, Old Time, Bluegrass & Celtic Solos"
(mel bay) and am really impressed with it. It has great bluegrass and celtic tunes and doesn't set up artificial barriers between styles of music, so on one page you might be playing a bluegrass tune and and the next an Irish tune. And guess what ? - it has chord symbols ! I guess they didn't get the memo that it violates the rules. Also, the muscianship is above average. Here is an example of a tune called "Angus Campbell" :
http://www.baysidepress.com/audio/99939bcdpg9.mp3
David
David
That looks like an interesting series of tune books that I hadn't come across before. Angus Campbell is an interesting tune written by the legendary Scottish fiddler and Dance Master J. Scott Skinner (August 5, 1843 - March 17, 1927) from his work "The Harp and Claymore" 1904. You can see the original copy here
Angus Campbell. I've posted a few versions of the tune below with chords. As you can see there is a difference of opinion about the chords but there are also similarities. The chords from the Mel Bay book are different again judging by the sample on the Mel Bay page. Who is right? I don't know. All of them would be the best answer. In Skinners original copy there are no chords marked but it does have a bass clef accompaniment so it would be possible to work out the chording by playing it on the piano. If only I could play the piano!
Anyways, it's a great tune and I'm glad that Scott Skinner is being played still. He toured the USA towards the end of the 19th century so maybe this tune has a link between the two sides of the Atlantic.
A photo of Angus Campbell from my Scott Skinner book.
All the best
Iain
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/07/2009: 08:52:01
quote:
Originally posted by imac50
I've posted a few versions of the tune [ABOVE] with chords. As you can see there is a difference of opinion about the chords but there are also similarities. The chords from the Mel Bay book are different again judging by the sample on the Mel Bay page. Who is right? I don't know. All of them would be the best answer. In Skinner's original copy there are no chords marked but it does have a bass clef accompaniment so it would be possible to work out the chording by playing it on the piano. If only I could play the piano!
Anyways, it's a great tune and I'm glad that Scott Skinner is being played still. He toured the USA towards the end of the 19th century so maybe this tune has a link between the two sides of the Atlantic.
All the best
Iain
That's very instructive Iain. Same fiddle tune, different chords. In order to play this, which fiddle tune setting should we learn? Ah, therein lies the fun! These things are not written in stone.
Which chords might we learn? Must we learn any chords to play the tune?
What's more important to carrying on the tradition, learning the tune or the chords?
If we never heard the tune before and heard just the chords on their own, in sequence, would we know the tune melody?
If we never heard the chords before and heard just the tune on its own, would we know the chords? Maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
... It's hard to learn a tune by just playing a bunch of single notes [emphasis added] - but I guess one has to uphold the ancient traditions. I was recently given a copy of "50 tunes for banjo - Traditional, Old Time, Bluegrass & Celtic Solos".... It has great bluegrass and celtic tunes and doesn't set up artificial barriers between styles of music.
Here is an example of a tune called "Angus Campbell":
http://www.baysidepress.com/audio/99939bcdpg9.mp3
Lovely tune, and thank you for the bit of background Iain, going back to the archives.
What we have here is a 5-book series of North American old-time, bluegrass and Celtic fiddle tunes so everybody can get on the same page – quite literally – an attractive collection of standards for (1) banjo, (2) bass, (3) fiddle, (4) guitar and (5) mandolin. http://www.melbayxpress.com/Search....k%20Geslison
This series is not focused on Irish trad or Celtic tunes as played in the old country, or even contemporary Irish and Celtic tunes heard at sessions today. What is it then?
It is a prize collection in its own right, being distinctly North American tune-oriented from start to finish. I would highly recommend any of these, though I would personally go for the fiddle book (for the treble clef); in fact, I’m enquiring about a copy myself. You have a lovely choice of fiddle tunes – a great glimpse into genuine North American tunes, a cross section of old-timey tunes and classic playing styles from the United States and Canada, with some waifs and strays that go back to the old country.
A word to 5-string players using fingerpicks: This book (part of the set) is not attempting to give a coherent 3-finger style (up-picking) approach using a standard tuning - “Celtic fingerstyle” for short. It’s allowing for and maintaining distinctions between styles and traditions, between "clawhammer", "Scruggs" and "melodic" playing.
Stylistic preferences and boundaries already exist; nobody has to create a false dilemma in order to exclude others or box them in some other category.
This book reveals stylistic preferences honestly and intelligently. Never mind the chords, however they may be harmonized and re-harmonized,
The trick to learning traditional Celtic tunes is not to think of them as "just playing a bunch of single notes", but to focus on linear groupings of notes, not in vertical-stacked-note chords, but as melodic contours, motives, phrases and themes moving along, one idea to the next, over time. Chords can be harmonized endlessly (and are).
Learning, playing and improvising tunes is not contingent upon understanding harmony, note-stacking principles (chords), substitutions or music theory.
There are great jazz books and recordings for this, but it's a different tradition, from a different culture, though some folks might not see it that way. It's not always about traditional American (or North American) music folks.
Here’s the Mel Bay description:
Though many parts are arranged in standard "Scruggs" style, some are arranged in frailing or "clawhammer" style, and many are arranged in "melodic" style. Where "Scruggs" style is considered, "less melody/more finger roll pattern," melodic style, as the name implies, is "more melody/less finger roll pattern."
I agree with this idea: It’s “hard to learn tunes” ... with or without chords. The trick to learning tunes is not to be stuck on chords and substitutions, but to be concentrating on finding and hitting the right notes, getting them into one’s head and fingers.
Focusing on finding the chords – for old-time and bluegrass - before learning the bare bones melody might have serious implications for how one adapts a melody in the long run. Why stop with old-time and bluegrass chords? Chords are chords, right, so why not rock and jazz substitutions? Why stop with chords, why not fool around with different rhythms and syncopations. Why not add Reggae, rock, jazz and different clave rhythms? Since we are moving beyond “artificial barriers between styles” we can play whatever we want, right?. Yes, of course, everything is everything. Believe it or not, that is happening in contemporary pan-Celtic styles....
I’m usually the first player at sessions in Ireland to start socking out jazz changes and chord substitutions when backing certain kinds of reels – varying them as I go - when I’m backing tunes on guitar, for which I get funny looks by purists, though it never stops me. Haha!
I love chords as much as anybody, but I know that it's an American folk predilection to look for a single set of chord changes for any given tune. Not everybody thinks that way, and they shouldn’t have to because some American stylists do it that way. That’s just one approach, and that, actually, could set up an artificial barrier to learning another style in either its traditional or contemporary forms. Being rigid with chords is not the way, but there's another potential pitfall of being too free with chord substitutions and the like.
If tunes are lost to the changes and rhythms, well, it’s moved beyond the core of the tradition, not necessarily bad music – it could be quite inspiring and liberating. It could be great music, and we know it when we hear it. But going beyond the old tradition and becoming a hybrid, could lose so many elements of the old tradition as to sound “foreign” or “alien”. It doesn't impress the locals particularly and it's funny to see it when it happens.
Why does Celtic music need to use old-time or bluegrass (or jazz chords), anyway, to move beyond “artificial barriers between styles of music”? It's a ruse even to suggest that it must, just posturing and rallying around the "chord" cause. Boring.
Speaking of chords and practical applications for them, using them with rolls, Janet Davis has a very interesting book/CD, also published by Mel Bay.
I would suggest that people who are looking to do more with chords and rolls - not tune or melody-playing per se - would be wise to find this book.
http://www.melbayxpress.com/Product...ductID=20790
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/08/2009 00:00:33
goldtopia - Posted - 12/07/2009: 09:37:21
The Celts' never played banjos and the Druids never had anything to do with Stone Henge. Just thought I would throw a spanner into the works with a bit of truth.
Bill.O
www.bluegrassminstrels.co.uk
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/07/2009: 11:47:05
It's easy to make sweeping generalizations, and it’s hard to learn tunes – especially if you don’t practice them – that is, the notes, motives, phrases and contours of melody. Learning a tune melody is really not the same as learning some set of chords, or substituting chords because one can.
It is arguable that some folks might have an easier time learning tunes – the actual notes in melodic sequence – if they are not distracted by chords or messing about with chord substitutions.
Amazingly, folks have been doing it this way for centuries, long before banjos were used to play tune melodies, and the tunes didn't die. Imagine that!
Let’s put this in context. Interestingly, because of increased market demand, Mel Bay has changed its policy in recent years regarding traditional tune books and now asks its authors to put chords (as symbols) in their works, though this was not always the case.
My next three books will have chords in them, at the discretion of the publisher. My first book, Complete Book of Irish & Celtic 5-String Banjo, has no chords, in keeping with the older practice of not writing in chord symbols for tune melodies. There was a time when that was the standard, especially for Irish and Celtic tutors. The majority of the older books don’t have chords. None of the classic O’Neill’s collections which have been training hundreds of thousands of players - generation after generation - have chords. The idea of putting them in, after the fact, is ludicrous.
Some of the oldest Celtic tune books – The Skye Collection immediately comes to mind – have bass clef for the piano player, but people are not going to the books for the bass clef.
People have been using Irish and Celtic tutors for several centuries for the treble clef melodies. Not having chords, or substitutions for the chords, never stopped the serious student from learning from a collection of tunes, and usually from many collections. Dedicated players who are hungry for tunes learn them from a variety of sources, both written and aural (oral).
At the core of the tradition, tunes stand out of their own device and don’t need accompaniment; in fact, they are learned solo, played solo, and to this day, they are still performed sean nós (old style) in concert. That is the inherent beauty of them: Tunes work as solo pieces, before the ensemble, or somebody whacking out chords.
Most of the older traditional American, Irish and Celtic tutors gave you a treble clef – just the melody, though this didn’t stop disciplined musicians from yesteryear learning how to play. Nobody who was really into learning tunes singled out books, authors or publishers for not tossing in chord symbols. Hungry musicians were happy enough having all these wonderful melodies and maybe some of them learned to read treble clef because of them.
The North American fiddle tunes (some Celtic) in Mark Geslison’s book are arranged for a variety of traditional styles and instruments. Check out the chords, yes, but these are tunebooks/CDs.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/07/2009 12:12:12
boyratchet - Posted - 12/07/2009: 13:13:25
Not to be labor the point, but one doesn't have to look for artificial barriers when there are plenty of natural ones if I can say it that way. Most music coming from Arab traditions don't even have harmony much less chords. Maybe a particular tune sounds minor so you drop a minor chord over it, but you will realize just how wrong you are the moment that quarter flattened third crashes against your flattened third. Of course, you can find examples of chordal accompaniment in this tradition, but unless done by a musician steeped in the tradition, who know how to sneak the chords in there so as to contribute to the melody, it detracts and even cheapens it. The point being, as Tom has suggested, understanding the tradition from within the tradition is going to better allow you to take it outside the tradition, because you know what works and why.
Different traditions are different. There is no way around it. For my part, I find that a source of excitement. It's like speaking another language and discovering a word for which there is no translation in your native tongue. It's mind blowing.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/08/2009: 01:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by boyratchet
Not to be labor the point, but one doesn't have to look for artificial barriers when there are plenty of natural ones if I can say it that way. Most music coming from Arab traditions don't even have harmony much less chords. Maybe a particular tune sounds minor so you drop a minor chord over it, but you will realize just how wrong you are the moment that quarter flattened third crashes against your flattened third. Of course, you can find examples of chordal accompaniment in this tradition, but unless done by a musician steeped in the tradition, who know how to sneak the chords in there so as to contribute to the melody, it detracts and even cheapens it. The point being, as Tom has suggested, understanding the tradition from within the tradition is going to better allow you to take it outside the tradition, because you know what works and why.
Different traditions are different. There is no way around it. For my part, I find that a source of excitement. It's like speaking another language and discovering a word for which there is no translation in your native tongue. It's mind blowing.
Well said, and there is a clear parallel between traditional Celtic and Eastern playing traditions with their focus on linear melody, modes, melisma and improvisation.
Getting inside a Celtic tradition and learning from other traditional tune players is far more enriching than superimposing a grid from a foreign or modern tradition. Forcing a rigid set of chord-backing patterns that are to be played every time, unvaryingly, is incidental to the living tradition, which is first and foremost about playing melody, typically in unison in an ensemble, or for the soloist, adding personal variation, either pre-planned or spontaneous.
The bald assertion that suggests that some tutors are creating "artificial barriers" - presumably a bad thing - and suggesting that these works can be ignored in favor of some presumed unifying method (with chord symbols) creates a false dilemma and pans other works in stealthy fashion, not revealing a full bona fide review but able to do damage nonetheless.
Educated consumers, of course, don't have to buy into unsubstantiated or bald assertions, designed to make people take one side against another. I've seen similar subterfuge in the form of negative reviews that set up a fallacy - a "straw man" - in order to slay it, sabotaging products quite capably while ignoring essential product details. That takes some neck.
There are many avenues and strategies for learning this rich traditional music that have nothing to do with whether or not we pay attention to chords. It’s not overcomplicating the tradition to concentrate on just the tunes, if one has the desire and discipline to do so. It's about the melodies and always comes back to them.
By the way, traditional tune composers are hardly thinking of chords or chord structures when spinning out melodic ideas that eventually become a tune. Traditional musicians and tune composers know this, even if the critics are still looking for red herrings or false dichotomies.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/08/2009 04:54:54
imac50 - Posted - 12/08/2009: 06:14:46
quote:
Originally posted by Banjowen
If you enjoy playing Celtic music such as is in Tom Hanways Irish and Celtic Music for 5 String Banjo, treat yourself this Christmas to Iain MacLachlan's Celtic Tune Encylopedia and you wont be disappointed, I've just got my copy and found it to be full of real good tunes,(there's almost100 to choose from) some are a little trickier than others but all are doable with a little effort, If you enjoy playing jigs,reels,hornpipes,strathspey's etc..in single string/melodic style then this book is a must, plus Iain like Tom is a Hangout member and both are only to happy to give advice on the single string/melodic style of playing Celtic music on the 5 string banjo.
Thanks, Owen! I agree with everything you say!
banjofanatico - Posted - 12/08/2009: 15:07:55
I'm glad you posted those versions of "Angus Campbell", Iain - I'm going to try to figure them out on the banjo. Nice to see a copy of the original sheet music from the past, too, and the history regarding the man who wrote it. What a great tune that is. And those videos are fun to look at. The banjo back-up the guy is using in the first video with the excellent flute player seems to suit this music (whatever that style of accompaniment is called).
David
banjofanatico - Posted - 12/08/2009: 15:29:55
Tom,
I guess when you get to an advanced stage of music you see the conncections between different styles of music, which to the musical simpletons seem to have steep walls separating them. I remember when another poster some time ago couldn't understand how Charlie Parker could like country music. I guess, being the musician he was, he could see the interconnections, whereas the mediocre music people just see barriers and are only able to apply emotive labels like "sophisticated", "corny", "greatest jazz banjo player in the world", etc. when describing music.
I just prefer to play chords for back-up when learning new tunes and it helps if there is a chord symbol to see the harmonic progression of the music. I guess chord symbols are considered outlandish in some circles. I don't think I would want to purchase a book of old folk songs and see a song like "Swannee River" with just a melody line and no chords and then be told that there are no chords for it - just play the melody line. I doubt players who did that would attract large audiences. And without the harmony chords one wouldn't know how the tune went anyway - if they had never heard it before. And the chords are really there anyway, as you can see from that video of Angus Campbell. One can hear the chord progression of the tune, even though no one is strumming chords. So I guess you can't escape the chords and not notating them won't make them go away.
David
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/08/2009: 16:44:44
Yes, David - you have a keen sense of the obvious. There was a real knee-slapper in there too....
Here's J. Scott Skinner's 'Angus Campbell' with (optional) chords that sound good to me, though I would improvise them to a certain extent and avoid bluegrass and old-time strumming patterns, which don't really do it for me for this particular tune.
Look at the all the chord changes and you'll begin to see why. This chord arrangement could be simplified even more, especially if we turned this reel into a hornpipe or strathspey, which J. Scott Skinner himself does. He didn't bother with chords on the fiddle, but he did arrange this tune several different ways, for which no single set of chord accompaniment would work.
So the chords really are not written in stone. And, they really can go away, especially if you don't play them, like Skinner the composer did.
It's still a solo tradition at the end of the day. Fiddlers would know this, especially Skinner. But we can't ask him his opinion, unfortunately.
So, here's the rare auld melody, and you don't need a pianist or guitar player to play along to get the tune.
I have it tabbed in the key of A - capoing at the 2nd fret, fifth string up to A. Iain is shaking his head, but try it Iain, and tell me that it's not easier this way (than playing it in A with no capo).
Hey folks, you can play it in G if you want, and David won't chase you with the recording and lead sheet - honest.
The chords are totally optional except for David, who has to play them sideways the first time through, then make Shetland-style chord substitutions in sock rhythm, while standing on one leg, for every measure.
Enjoy this tune - my little present for the holiday.
Please also check out 'Mason's Apron' - another Scottish reel in A, capoed up 2 - in my Music Files here. It's got a lot of ornamentation in it. Yes, David, there's chord backing that you can copy. You can't get away from others' weird chords, as you know.
This is the easiest arrangement I could come up with in Celtic fingerstyle. I have other ways of doing it using ornamentation and lots of triplets, which maybe I'll put up, if there's interest. See how you get on with this first.
Happy pickin' - Tom
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 12/16/2009 03:41:46
Banjowen - Posted - 12/09/2009: 02:35:57
Thanks Tom for making a tune that can sound a little complicated so easy to play, It's took me just over one hour to get it down smoothly. (I must be improving, ..and there must still be life in the old fingers yet).
boyratchet - Posted - 12/09/2009: 06:26:29
((I guess when you get to an advanced stage of music you see the conncections between different styles of music, which to the musical simpletons seem to have steep walls separating them.))
I'm not sure who you are suggesting is the "simpleton" and who is the one that has reached "an advanced stage of music", but you seem to be confusing an individual's capacity to appreciate different genres, as in your example of Charlie Parker, with the underlying elements that make a genre what it is, distinguishing it from other genres or traditions. As much as Charlie Parker might have loved country music, I highly doubt that during a hot jam session at Minton's Playhouse, he would have ever approached a tune the way Bill Monroe would have while on the Grand Ol' Oprey. Why? Because bluegrass simply isn't jazz. That isn't to say that there is an impentrable barrier between them, but rather something more akin to a porous cell membrane, where all music is the organism, and the genres are cell or organs (pardon the pun) from which it is composed. Is information, energy, fuel and even waste exchanged? Certainly, but as in any highly developed organism, the component parts are highly specialized. Much like you can't fault the brain not acting like the liver, it is a bit silly to assume that traditional Irish music has to act like American folk music or that those who refuse to cast them in the same light are some sort of obstructionists.
I agree that there is an underlying connection between all music, but I think it is off base to suggest that this connection is chordal harmony. Classical Indian music, from what little I can tell has no chord progressions or even harmony (excepting the drones). Are teachers in this tradition just being obtuse when they don't teach their students the underlying chords? How about in the various traditions of the Middle East? Looking a little close to home, but further back in time is the monophonic music of the Middle Ages.
There are some wonderful jazz musicians from the Middle East that have developed their own flavor of the genre but where there is no significant harmony. When they play the head, everybody plays the same thing (or in octaves with the occasional fifth), and guess what? It's still super cool music. Even without the chords. Why would you want to stick a square peg into a round hole when in fact there is a square whole, unless you are simply wanting to illustrate your own determination to bend the world to your will?
((One can hear the chord progression of the tune, even though no one is strumming chords.))
I would suggest that you hear the chord progression because that is how you have learned to hear music. In a sense, it's culturally conditioned. It wouldn't be far to think that there are others that would hear entirely different progressions. Have you ever hear Andy Statman cut loose on a bluegrass standard? Whatever chords/harmony he is hearing, would have never occurred to me in a million years, and what's more amazing about it, he could probably do it again, and suggest something very different then next time around and the next time and the next time and the next time and...
When I was living in Morocco, I remember going to a party at a resort. It was a rather kitschy affair, but what made it interesting to me is that the resort didn't cater to foreign tourists, but to locals. A rather generic band (for Morocco) was playing, and while I was sitting there drinking my fresh squeezed OJ (no alcohol was served, another cultural difference that is inexplicable to many Westerners), I notice this group of little girls dancing and tapping out rhythms to the music. What was so striking about it was that the rhythms they were tapping out were more complex than what you are likely to hear from even accomplished percussionists in the West. Why was that? Well, when you grow up in a part of the world where there is no harmony, other musical sensibilities develop. A bit like the story of the blind who develop acute sense of hearing or smell. On the other hand, listen to some of the westernized pop that comes out of Egypt. It's clear that they don't quite get it. At least to my ears.
((So I guess you can't escape the chords and not notating them won't make them go away.))
I think we all struggle to escape from the constraints of our upbringing, musical or otherwise, when we butt up against what is unfamiliar. Good luck in your voyage.
Incidentally, Old Folks at Home (Swannee River) isn't a folk song.
PS I'll give anybody my Stelling Master Flower if they can tell me the chord progression to this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQY_gqf3vKY
Seriously, wait until the women start singing (or skip ahead) it is worth it. This guy was hugely popular in Morocco, and I must admit, I really developed quite a liking for it. Incidentally, he is Berber, not Arab.
Edited by - boyratchet on 12/09/2009 06:27:35
Banjowen - Posted - 12/09/2009: 06:43:30
Reminds me of a few Irish sessions I've been to where the loud rustle of bin bags means a dozen bodhran players have turned up.
Edited by - Banjowen on 12/09/2009 06:45:13
imac50 - Posted - 12/09/2009: 09:20:33
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
So, here's the rare auld melody, and you don't need a pianist or guitar player to play along to get the tune.
I have it tabbed in the key of A - capoing at the 2nd fret, fifth string up to A. Iain is shaking his head, but try it Iain, and tell me that it's not easier this way (than playing it in A with no capo)..
Happy pickin' - Tom
Well you are right on both counts, Tom. I am shaking my head and it is easier to play! Here is my version in A without the capo and without chords.
Edited by - imac50 on 12/09/2009 09:38:55
Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/09/2009: 11:23:02
Good on you Iain, I knew you'd come through. That's very elegant and you remained true to Skinner's original version in the fourth measure (where the II - V change is chord-maniacs). I went for a contemporary variation in mine, though I may go back to Skinner's original. Iain, wait till you see my strathspey version! (joke ... maybe!)
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