Thanks Texasbanjo I have been able to find the key to several songs and the 1 4 5 theory helps with finding the right chords.But what if my tuning is not the same as a groups tuning on a cd if I want to play along .I find this case alot, I tune with a pitch pipe or a tuning fork to the standard G tuning but cant find the right key to a song on a cd.I think because Im not in the same tuning as the band.Is there anyway to figure out if a song or a band has a different tuning other than standard G.

I''ve been sittin'' here thinkin'' back over my life
All of the good things the trouble and strife
Well my share of heartache yes so many I''ve had
But I still think the good things outweigh the bad

Well I''ve rocked my babies at night when they cried
I''ve seen the teardrops turn into smiles
And that''s when I realize all the bad luck I''ve had
And I know all the good things outweigh the bad

Well I never have riches no money to spare
Just a sharecropper''s wages is my only fare
Yes makin'' my livin'' just working the land
But I still think the good things outweigh the bad
Well I''ve rocked my babies...

Yes I''ve worked the cotton in the heat of the day
And then paid the landlord nearly all that I made
Well I''ve seen high water take all that I had
But I still think the good things outweigh the bad
Well I''ve rocked my babies...

If you're listening to bluegrass songs, most all are tuned in G, regardless sof what key they capo up to; i.e., open G tuning, capoed up 2 to A. If you're listening to old Flatt & Scruggs tunes, they tuned up to G# because it made the music sound better. Also, some of the older, re-mixed for CD songs might be off key just a little bit and you'd have to figure out how to either retune your banjo up or down half a tone or maybe capo up or down one fret. Sometimes that'll work.

There are some instrumentals that are tuned in D, Reuben comes to mind. Nashville Blues is in D and there are a few others. You just about have to know the song to figure that out.

If you're wanting to learn to play in different keys, have you ever thought about Band in a Box? It's a backup band that will play any song in any key and at any tempo and it's easy to change both key and tempo -- and it's JUST backup, not the entire song with breaks, so you can play along doing your breaks or working on backup. Good way to learn to "hear" chords, too, as the chords are right in front of you and you can watch as they change.


Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo

This is very helpfull, thank you!

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I''ll shut up my mug, if you fill up my jug, with some good ol'' mountain dew!

Thank you for the posting on music theory of the banjo! It will be helpful to me. I just got a banjo as a gift (which I have wanted) but I don't have a clue about how to play it. I do however, have a little piano and guitar background making it easier to understand what you wrote. It's a great start for me - thanks again! ...(no one around here teaches banjo - so I'm left to my own teaching with books --- and you folks here. :-)

I'm looking forward to it.



Forever Learning,
Jada Banjo

Well I now have a headache. Thanks for the info, now if I can just make sense of it all.

Like a Dog, a Banjo just wants to be played with and cared for.

QUOTING YOUR LESSON:

quote:

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The first D chord on the banjo is made as follows: 3rd string, 2nd fret (index), 2nd string, 3rd fret (middle), 1st string 4thfret (ring) and 4th string, 4th fret (pinkie). (This is called the 2nd or D position and also makes many chords).

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If that's what I wrote, I did it WRONG! The fingering for the D chord is: 3rd string, 2nd fret (index), 2nd string, 3rd fret (middle), 1st string 4th fret (PINKIE) and 4th string, 4th fret (RING). I will go back and change it -- so sorry I hadn't caught it before.

The typo has been changed and again, I apologize and thank you for catching it.

OK Sherry. Great topic and well explained. I am still at the basic level attempting to improve my understanding. Please allow me the liberty of asking the most basic of questions. Let's say I'm at a beginner slow jam and I'm strumming along playing backup in the key of G. Suddenly someone says I'm going to sing and I need the key of E. Without retuning which would take me 5 minutes, or using a capo which I cannot do yet, what do I do to participate in a I,IV,V chord song?

Captruss, first _you_ tell me what the 1,4,5 chords of E are. (count them on your fingers). I can tell you or you can memorize them for all keys or you can spend a little bit of time working it out and then you will have learned it and not need the memorization anymore.

Spike the 5th string up to B (4th fret) and you can use it or just don't pluck the 5th string at all.

Example: We're going to play in Bb. Well use the Bb chord at the 8th fret (8768) which is exactly like the F-shape G at the 5th fret). If you can play G/C/D all closed chords at the 5th fret, then you play the same chords and you've got the 1,4,5 in Bb (without actually knowing what the names of the chords are).

Practice using full 4-finger chords for _all_ your songs and this positional approach quickly, in less than a week or 10 songs, becomes obvious.

Thanks Mike; Between your web site and a couple of books I bought I'm slowly figuring this music theory thing out. No wonder you can get a college degree in music. My God it is complex.

Theory is complex because it is theoretical.

The trick to making it less complex is to apply it to songs you already know.

First, Get a song book like Rise Up Singing or Hits of the Sixties or Reader's Digest Favorite American Songs or your favorite band that you actually listen to and can sing their songs: Michael Jackson, Old Crowe Medicine Show, B.B. King, Def Leppard, Elvis, and play the songs you already know how they sorta go cause you;'ve heard them a bunch of times.

Use chords and just strum. Ignore the complicated chords at first. Work on easy songs. Strum them using chords up and down the neck. If you strum thru 20 different songs which will take you about 2 or 3 hours at first, you will learn a lot of stuff. If you have the Battle Hymn of the Republic in front of you in the key of Bb, well just strum it.

Bb ain't no different than no other 4-finger chord. Look it up on your chord chart and then look up the Eb and find a close one to the Bb you chose and so on and so forth. Seriously. Play If You're Happy and You Know It in whatever key it is in in the Campfire Songbook.

Learning the banjo is one thing. To do that, you need to learn techniques and chords and rolls and rhythm and timing and this and that and usually using songs you've never listened to much before and couldn't really hum.

But you can learn the basic theory of music much quicker--especially on the 5-string banjo-- if you just strum the chords to songs you already know. When I think about it mathematically and physically, if I were going teach the topology of musical chord theory, I would use open G tuning (and ignore the 5th string). There are only 3 possible regular open tunings and that one works the best.

There are 3 different notes in a major chord.
There are 3 different major chord forms on the banjo. F,D and barre
If you go up the neck playing the same chord such as G at the open, 5,9,12,17,21 frets (1st string), they will be in the same relationship as if you do _any_ other chord:
... barre: up 5 frets-> F: up 4-> D: up 3-> barre: up 5-> F: up 4-> D...
because it can't do anything else. It's like magic, but we act like it's numbers or something.

Physically, if you start with _any_ of the 3 possible chord shapes and play a regular three chord song (which uses the 1,4,5 chords or G,C,D or E,A,B) and use the closest other chords, you will use the other two forms.

F-shape. G:5435 C:5555 D:4234 If you can play this starting at any fret, you can play 90% of modern music. You could hang out at a jam and play most of the tunes and _learn_ the other important chords from any mandolin or guitar player just by knowing this single relationship. They'd just say, "Move that one up two frets" or "move that one down one."

You will learn this relationship and the other two simply by chording your way through two or three songbooks. And once you grok that relationship with your fingers against songs you already know, then you've actually got a good grip on the fundamentals of music theory.

The rest of it is just numbers and other complications. ;-)

(And they aren't complications; they are simply aspects of the issues involved in talking about anything.)

Thanks Mike; As usual you seem to say things I understand, after I read it a couple of times. I might be overthinking things here but I do think that there are two facets to improving at anything. One is the physical part which is certainly applicable to banjo, and the other is the mental part, or understanding why you are doing certain things in the first place. Those who say just play and learn by ear must have talents I don't have. I'm just not wired that way. Too analytical I guess but I want to master this instrument and understand it, not just play a few tunes.

Thanks again for the help

russ

I am brand new to banjo and this thread has been imensely helpful. I should also admit that I have been playing guitar for several years but I have always neglected theory.

Like I said, this thread has been epically helpful. One issue that I'm having is translating things from bluegrass (which is primarily the style discussed in this thread) to clawhammer.

As I am learning, clawhammer banjo holds a rhythm and voices the melody of the song through playing a collection of notes. There are many helpful tabs out there (like Cripple Creek for instance) that help out us n00bs.

Ok, finally to my question. If I find a piece of music that is not already tabbed out and only expressed in chords, how do I know how to voice the melody? I have had some luck in guitar with just using notes from the chord I'm playing in order to find the melody but it is more trial and error than anything. Do I have to stick with notes in the G scale if I am playing in the key of G or does the scale reflect the chord playing at the given time.

Example: Let's say I'm playing a song in the key of C. Using I IV V the chords would be C-G F. So I play the C chord and sing "LA DE DA DA DO" then play the G chord and sing "LA DE DA" and then play the F chord and sing "DA DE LA LA LA"... How would I find the notes to mimick the vocals? I know that vocals can sometimes be sporatic, but this doesn't necessarily need to reflect vocals only. It would also be to mimick, let's say, synth keyboard melody in a rock song.

JoeBan, you've found the problem. One of two problems with <songtitle>chord searches on the Internet.

1. The melody, which can be sung differently by different people, is THE melody to a song. So, unless you've heard the song before and know the contours of the melody, you can't get THE melody.

2. Rhythm not stated. Again, if you've heard the song before you're fine, if not you may be missing some cool breaks.

My arguement: In addition to learning Earl tunes by ear/tab, we should all learn to read melodies and improvise our own arraingements of songs. Use all the traditional methods but add chart/music melody reading.

Fairmont,

I totally agree with you. I have been playing guitar for quite a while and understand the frustration with internet chord searches.

My question is more geared towards writing my own melodies or exactly mimicking the melodies of a song already written like as in guitar solo fingerstyle methods. Is there a method to the madness of finding the melody or is it just kamikaze?

A while back I tabbed out a piece on guitar that played both rhythm and melody (keyboard) for the song "Kids" by MGMT. It seems like most (maybe all, I'd have to check) of the notes that mimicked the keyboard fell within the notes of the chord shape I was playing at the time. I figured this out by ear and I am pretty sure that this does not work all the time.

So do I search the C scale to find notes when I'm playing a C chord, F scale when I'm playing the F chord, and the G scale to find the notes in when I'm playing the G chord? Do I just base my note hunting off of the C scale because that's the key signature of the song? Randomly hunt until I get it right?

I'll try to answer your question about how to work out melody. First, listen to the song over and over and over until you have the melody in your mind and can sing or hum it.

Then pick it out note by note on the banjo -- and that's your question -- how do I do that.

If you're in the key of G and you are using G, C, D, and the first chord is a G chord, you'd use the G scale to find the melody notes and a good way to start is with the G pentatonic scale -- the 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 notes (G, A, B, C, E, F#) of that scale will have "most" of the melody notes in it. Then if you go to a C chord, use the C scale and the C pentatonic: C,D,E, F, A, B and if you go to a D chord, use the D pentatonic -- D, E, F#, G, B and C#.

Now, maybe not every melody note will be in those 3 scales but a majority of them will be.

Now, find each melody note and if you need to, write it out in tab, being sure that each note is in the correct measure and on the correct beat. After that, see if you can figure out how to put clawhammer type notes around it (not that familiar with clawhammer, much more so with bluegrass).

After a few times of this, it will (should) become much easier and you'll be able to figure it out without using tab.

Hope that helps.

Texasbanjo,

Thanks a ton! You answered my question perfectly. If I could buy you a drink I would.

To find the 'scale' you want to play in a song, use the collection of _all_ chords played in the song.

For example, any 1,4,5 chord set contains the notes of the major scale of the 1 key and no other notes.
for example, G is G,C,D chords.
Fret G chord you get the 4 open strings.
Fret C and in addition to the open strings, you get 3 other notes 2012. Remember those.
With D, you get some more notes, one of which is the 'tuning' note on the 2nd string. 4234.
That complete set of notes is your G major scale.
(Note that if you add the 3 relative minors: Em, Am, Bm you get no additional notes.)
If you add some other chords to that set, then you get to use those extra notes of the chord, such as the 2 chord (A in the key of G).

This approach works much better for instruments used to playing chords than the jazz approach of using a specific set of scales because you have to use scales in different keys for complex tunes such as Salty Dog or Five Foot Two. But when playing the songs, you can just use the notes from the entire set of chords. If you want to be more precise, then keep the 'extra' notes either in the chord you are on or the ones that come immediately (or closer) before or after.

great discussion about melody... i am not a music theory expert, but i like talking about it. there is something else that i've noticed about melody. not only will most of these notes be part of the scale(s), some (many) of them will be part of the triad (1,3 or 5 of the key or current chord). And to take it a step further, its often the case that a chord section will begin and/or end on the root of the chord. Obviously in more complex tunes this is not the case but for many tunes I believe it is.

A song I have been focusing on a little bit lately is columbus stockade blues. its melody is pretty straightforward. it has some lead-in but basically it goes.. (in the key of G)

waa-aaay down 
 b   a    g

 G
waa-aay down in co-lum-bus geor-gia
 b   a   g   d  d   g   b   d    b

 D7                         G
want to be back in ten-nes-see
 d    d  d   b  b  b-a g-e  g

My head hurts after reading all the wordy and circular definitions, unnecessary terms (which may indeed be valid musical terms but unnecessary to define the terms discussed) and downright mis-information in this thread.

A SCALE is simply a prescribed group of notes, usually perceived as being ordered in ascending or descending pitches.

A DIATONIC SCALE (the Major and minor scales we use 99% of the time in bluegrass and folk music) is a scale that is composed of notes two tones apart (Dia=two Tonic = tone...TWO TONES.)


Half steps are the smallest intervals we recognize in Western music. The G chromatic scale: G-G#-A-Bb-B-C-C#-D-Eb-F-F#-G. Take the chromatic scale and play every other tone and you get a diatonic scale. The naturally occurring half steps between B and C and between E and F kind of throw a wrench in this definition, but you get the general picture. (Almost nothing in music is "absolute", there are usually exceptions or more accurately, "extensions" to the rules and definitions)

A CHORD is a group of four or more notes which when played simultaneously create a pleasant sound to our ears. If two notes are too close together in pitch and played simultaneously, they produce a harsh sound. The closest two notes can be that sound a "pleasant" harmony is a minor third, or three half steps 3 frets). Play a G and a G# together - ARGH! Play a G and an A together...still "nails on a chalkboard', but G played with a Bb sounds good. This is a minor third, the closest interval our brain recognizes as "pleasant". Play G and B together...again, a pleasant harmony. This is a major third interval. This is why the commonly used chords are DIATONIC.... composed of notes two scale degrees apart, which is always either a minor third or a major third...the pleasant intervals. For example, take a G scale G-A-B-C-D-E-F#...play alternate notes G, B, and D you have a major triad. A-C-and E (Am chord..again a pleasing sound) Take the G triad...add the note two MORE scale degrees higher, the F#, and you have a G MAJOR SEVENTH CHORD.

A TRIAD is a three-note chord. The common "chords" G C and D we play all the time are technically TRIADs, not chords. Almost everybody except classical and jazz musicians call them chords, but they are not, by formal definition.

A KEY is NOT a tonal center, as several have said here. The KEY NOTE is the tonal center... the G in the key of G or the C in the key of C.

The KEY includes the associated scale, has the same root or tonal center as the associated scale, but is more. It encompasses the scale and the chords. The key is the scale and the chords and the environment in which they reside in. It is the motif which makes the melody and chord progression possible. It is not just the canvas upon which we paint the image, it is also the paint and the brush, ALL of which are necessary to produce the image (the TUNE).

BTW, Nashville musicians did not invent the number system. It was used in ancient Egypt. All Nashville studio guys did was convert it to Arabic numerals instead of Roman numerals which is easier to interpret in our Western culture. It always irks me when people refer it as the "Nashville Number System". In a way the Roman numerals used by classical and jazz musicians are more elegant, because they use lower case Roman numerals to denote minor chords, and capital Roman numerals to denote Major chords. In our system we must use a minus sign or a small "m" to denote a minor chord when writing chord charts, an added symbol which makes it somewhat more complex.

Jack

BTW, this is a cursory or "discussion group" answer to the questions...I wrote a Mel Bay book for banjo players called "You Can Teach Yourself Banjo by Ear" which contains this basic theory info and extends it into chord progressions and probability theory with banjo examples. It explains how to use basic theory to figure out first chord types, then progressions, then melodies in three finger style. I wrote a MUCH more comprehensive book called "How To Play by Ear" that is not banjo-specific, but is written for those with no formal musical education. Both include ear training CD's. Explaining music theory requires some in-depth explanation, with visuals such as charts and chord stacks. An internet discussion group is not the best place to get a comprehensive view. Too many people going too many different directions.

It puzzles me why people would get online in front of the whole world and discuss a topic they know little about, asking questions of people of whom they have no idea about their qualifications or teaching experience...when they could buy a book written by a Master musician or a PhD in music and get the correct in-depth answer...or even more effective and efficient, google the question or the term and have the correct answers in ten seconds. I'm not holding myself out there as a PHD or a Master musician just because I have written a few books...I never had any formal musical education above junior high school band. I learned by reading books and magazine articles and asking jazz musicians I taught alongside questions, and by using deduction and common sense.

No offense intended... there are some really nice and well-meaning people on this list serve, many who have also recommended my learning materials and given positive testimony about my products. I DO appreciate this. But as a teacher and a banjo player I feel the need to comment when facts are being distorted in the spirit of teaching, and people are absorbing confusing and sometimes downright incorrect information.

Flame retardant ready...

Jack

I googled the word "key","music", and "definition" This is from freedictiobnary.com:

a. A tonal system consisting of seven tones in fixed relationship to a tonic, having a characteristic key signature and being the structural foundation of the bulk of Western music; tonality.
b. The principal tonality of a work: an etude in the key of E.

"A tonal system consisting of seven tones in fixed relationship to a tonic'...

That part is pretty accurate, IMO, but not complete. And, it uses the undefined musical term "tonic". They should have stopped there, it gets even more circular when they talk about a key signature, (also undefined term and uses the term being defined in the definition). Later they again use the undefined term "tonality". AND if this is just "a" tonal system, name another???? I would say it is THE musical system of Western music, and anyway, isn't all music "tonal"? Can anybody think of music in ANY culture that is not based in a key, with a tonal center? (I don't count natives beating on drums... they are not "tonal" in the sense that they produce a melody). It probably exists, but we would not consider it "music".

"The principal tonality of a work: an etude in the key of E"

...again, circular and non-descriptive.

freedictionary.com? Guess you get what you pay for. Forget what I said about Googling when it comes to music theory...


Jack

Thanks,Jack.

re:

If Person A plays the melody in the Key of G, Then Person B Plays in the same song in the Key of B or D? That would be the Third and Fifth chords of that key.... How would one figure out how to do that on a banjo without a capo?

This would be nice and easy...but unfortunately, it will not work because if you simply capo up you are not playing in the same key...because the half steps occur at different locations, all your notes would not be a major or minor third or a fifth, the commonly used intervals. Thst the whole pot about having a scale...a scale is a palette of "acceptable"or "legal" notes all musicians playing the same tune together draw from to make sure they always harmonize.

The most common way to harmonize a melody is playing the note that is a major or minor third ABOVE the melody note. This is easy to find...just count up two notes in the scale.

This is, btw, (as mentioned in my previous post, how the diatonic chords are formed. Each note in the chord stack is a major third or a minor third interval above the previous note. The G Major triad I referred to in the last post is an example...G-B-D...when we selected every other note in the G Major scale, we got G to B, a Major third interval (a four-fret span), then B to to D, a minor third interval (a three-fret span).

Hold down an F formation G chord (at the third fret) play a forward-backward (reverse) roll while someone else plays the same roll selecting the same strings, while holding a G chord in the D formation (at the 7th fret) you will hear a note-for-note harmony in thirds (except when you both hit the fifth string simultaneously, this will be a unison). This is exactly how many of the harmony ("twin banjo" is the term often used) tunes are arranged on twin banjo albums like Roy Clark and Buck Trent "Pair of Fives" or Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman's "New dimensions in Banjo and Bluegrass". Playing a note-for-note harmony in Scruggs style requires a tune like the B part of Dixie Breakdown or Pony Express or Deputy Dalton. These tunes all feature a song part consisting of a sequence or ascending or descending chords played with a repeating roll. The most common rolls for this are the Forward-Backward (TIMTMITM: Pony Express simplified), the alternating thumb (TITM: Dixie Breakdown simplified), the Alternating Middle (MIMT: Deputy Dalton). Dixie Breakdown can be played with either the Alternating Thumb for a simplified version, or like Reno, the (TIMI:Pony Express) roll. The ITIM is also a good one, starting on the second string:2321.

Coincidentally, I ran into Ed Brown at the SPBGMA convention in Nashville last weekend and he gave me a CD of his landmark 1970's album done with Fred Sullivan " Magnum Banjos" which is all original tunes, all melodic twin banjo arrangements. It is BEAUTIFUL music, highly recommended.

One could play a harmony in Scruggs style by harmonizing only the melody notes (the fill note remain in unison, the right hand sequences are identical for both players). Old Joe Clark is a favorite to tune for this. However, most note-for-note harmony arrangements are performed in melodic style or single string style, because these styles allow the possibility to choose the location of every single note, find each note on a string and fret that may not require repeating a digit on consecutive eighth notes. Note-for note harmonies must to be tediously worked out, and sometimes do require one to break the "rule" of not using the same digit consecutively on eighth notes. Some tunes are, of course, easier than others. If anybody would like my twin Scruggs style arrangement of "Eight More Miles to Louisville" (using the MIMT roll) and my twin melodic style arrangement of "Eighth of January" send a s.a.s.e. with two stamps to:

Hatfield Music 325 Laurelwood Dr. Pigeon Forge, TN 37863.

Send a 9"X12" envelope with three stamps if you don't want it folded.

"Eighth of January" is played using a pentatonic scale, which makes it easier to harmonize since there are only five notes in tour palette. It can be played by a late beginner, though I do not recommend beginners delve to much into the melodic style until they get a solid foundation in Scruggs style.

Jack

quote:

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Originally posted by jackhatfield
[brIt puzzles me why people would get online in front of the whole world and discuss a topic they know little about, asking questions of people of whom they have no idea about their qualifications or teaching experience...when they could buy a book written by a Master musician or a PhD in music and get the correct in-depth answer...or even more effective and efficient, google the question or the term and have the correct answers in ten seconds. I'm not holding myself out there as a PHD or a Master musician just because I have written a few books...I never had any formal musical education above junior high school band. I learned by reading books and magazine articles and asking jazz musicians I taught alongside questions, and by using deduction and common sense.


Flame retardant ready...

Jack

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