Agree, I don’t like pickups myself. Microphones are ok if there is a knowledgeable person running the sound (that’s what I have always done in bluegrass bands). I play in church (banjo and guitar) about once a month and everyone is plugged in but me. They probably see me as an old fart but that’s ok. I do use their in-ear monitors, but agree I’ve never heard an amplified banjo/acoustic guitar that sounded natural.

Putting a pickup on a pre-war D18? Naw.
I couldn't handle putting a pickup in my herringbone.
Because I play, I'm not a fan of the single mike. I know it looks pretty, but give me my own mike. Flame keepers and AKUS each have enough mikes.
Two example bands, IMHO.

If someone's ever able to develop a pickup that gives a true "in front of the mic" acoustic sound, everyone will start using them. Of course, that would be the equivalent to finding the Holy Grail...

I have found using mics very preferable to pickups, especially on a banjo. To me - and this is just me, mind you - I've never heard a pickup yet on a banjo that didn't change the tone of the banjo pretty substantially. A GOOD microphone, plugged into a GOOD sound system, run by a GOOD soundman, is about as good as can be expected. In a small venue, or my den, or someone's living room, or quite a few "gigs" that are in a relatively confined space, it is true that sometimes a sound system only serves to muddle things up and it isn't actually required. However - a very large venue, those in the back should be able to hear as good as those in the front..... so a sound system is pretty much a necessity. Be this as it may, most of us understand that volume and tone are NOT the same thing, but sufficient volume for all instruments and voices to be heard, is a must! Nothing worse than not being able to hear the great break by the guitar, or banjo, or fiddle, the mandolin, the dobro.... or one of the vocal parts simply can't be heard. NO EXCUSE for that!

As Alice Roosevelt famously said "If you can't say anything nice, come over here and sit with me."

I did hear Sierra Hull a couple of times this year and they were all plugged in and had a great sound. But they have their own sound man, PEMs and lots of expensive gear. Oh yes - and no banjo. They still use mics, and I'm not sure to what extent the pickups were mainly for monitors or blended into the mains.
But I agree, a lot of times amplified acoustic instruments can sound awful.

I typically play in small to medium-sized breweries and bars. Most of the places I wind up in weren't designed with live performance in mind -- terrible acoustics, poor positioning...  and the buildup of ambient noise from crowd conversation, cars, trains, etc can get so out of control… You really need a strong PA with everything run through it — otherwise, anyone interested in what you’re doing wouldn’t be able to hear it.

I prefer a good microphone (or a bad one). I run a DPA 4099 clip-on mic into a Grace Felix preamp and this has served me well for years. But I’d happily stand in front of an SM57 run into whatever ya got, before going the pickup route! ;-)

What is the beef with ear monitors? As an audience member, I never detected anything about them that detracts from the performance.

We are all at the mercy of the sound man.

.... and my experience ^^ has been that sound men, w.r.t. bass, often ascribe to, "if some is good more is better."

However, having said that, I figure maybe I'm kinda lucky in that, without the ability to dissect music into its tiniest parts, I can just fall back on "if it sounds good, it is good."

I think I’d have as much luck finding Bigfoot, as I would a sound guy with experience mixing acoustic bluegrass ensembles in central NJ (outside of higher end venues and events)…

When I played in rock bands, dragging out the PA was a hassle, always appreciated a house sound system and sound guy. Now, I breath a sigh of relief when we can use our own sound system. Dialed in to suit us over time, and we’re used to it.

I was in a band for many years where the band leader decided to have his wife run sound.
Oh boy. You could always hear him real good. Me, not so much.

Of course banjos through pickups don't sound the same as banjos through microphones. Pickups are working off vibrations of the instrument, microphones are working off actual sound waves in air -- same as our ears.

Some pickups come close. Every time I've heard a banjo played through a pickup that sounded almost the same as one through a mic (and had the opportunity to ask the player what they were using), it turned out to be a Fishman. One time it was a Nechville pickup in a Nechville banjo in a very loud and difficult bar setup.

In the ToneDexter WaveMap Shootout episode of Picky Fingers Banjo Podcast, Keith Bilik trains the ToneDexter emulator (for want of a better term) on the sound of his Sullivan banjo through five different microphones and then tests those saved "WaveMaps" playing his banjo through three different pickups. I forget which mic I liked the best, but the most impressive pickup was the EMG ACB Barrel (totally different than EMG's ACB-5 active pickup).  The Barrel is EMG's answer to or version of the Fishman. Very natural sounding.

ToneDexter is a DI/preamp that models (and stores) the sound of a specific acoustic instrument played through a mic. When you then play that same instrument through a pickup, and engage the ToneDexter it compares the incoming sound to the stored microphone "WaveMap" you've chosen and adjusts the output to sound more like the mic. You can save WaveMaps for multiple mics, which is what Keith did in his shootout.

The episode is worth a listen.

The mics in the test: Rode NT5 (small diaphragm condenser), Behringer ECM8000 (omnidirectional measurement mic), Sure SM57, Audio-Technica AT4047 (large diaphragm condenser), Mesanovic Model 2 (figure 8 ribbon).

The pickups: K&K Twin, Schatten BJ-02, EMG ACB Barrel.

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Originally posted by chuckv97

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My opinion is that everybody should make the music they want to make, and use the best and most appropriate gear that they can afford for the situation they are in. Going through the trouble to make a public post just to denigrate some people for making that choice strikes me as counterproductive to building a community around bluegrass music.

Given David's prior bigoted rant about IBMA, the timing of his current gate-keeping posts isn't much of a surprise. Look it up if you're not aware of what I'm referring to.

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Originally posted by Keith Billik

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

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My opinion is that everybody should make the music they want to make, and use the best and most appropriate gear that they can afford for the situation they are in. Going through the trouble to make a public post just to denigrate some people for making that choice strikes me as counterproductive to building a community around bluegrass music.

Given David's prior bigoted rant about IBMA, the timing of his current gate-keeping posts isn't much of a surprise. Look it up if you're not aware of what I'm referring to.

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Wow.  I just saw it on YouTube.  I won't post a link here as the content would violate our rules.  Must be hard to go through life that angry.

I guess I can "look it up" or ask here: "Who's David Peterson?"  

I liked it when my old band went to pickups.We played noisy bars where our bass player was also our soundman and it was much easier to just find some kind of balance of sound that we could basically set and forget.

Yeah, that Peterson clip was ridiculous. Seems like he could use one of them “stage bowls”.

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Originally posted by Owen

I guess I can "look it up" or ask here: "Who's David Peterson?"  

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https://davidpetersonand1946.com/bio

What a jerk.

I suppose he thinks of 1946 as the good ol' days.

I do like the old stuff, but I think its relative scarcity in today's bluegrass music makes it more special. If every band was super traditional it would get pretty repetitive. I'm a lot more interested in the informal jamming than the commercial side of the music though. There's a lot of music I'm not into, and that's okay.

I prefer mics to pickups. Luckily I've never played a gig big or noisy enough to need a pickup.

Those screenshots are a good example of why people under a certain age avoid Facebook. If I were a public figure I would try to remain somewhat mysterious.

David McLaughlin is the GOAT however.

Onto an tangent, AND tongue-in-cheek ... 1946 was the good ol' days in east-central SK/west-central MB. [That's when/where I was born.   ]

Somewhere along the line I read that people born in cold climates are more intelligent than people born in warm countries. I doubt that that is borne out by stats, but I choose not to "look it up," as in late Dec. '46 our area was in the midst of a cold snap and a blizzard created some doubt as to whether or not they'd be able to get my mom to the midwife.  [Apparently all's well that ends well.????]

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Originally posted by steve davis

I suppose he thinks of 1946 as the good ol' days.

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Well, it was the first year of peace after WW II, Dolly was born, gas cost .21, and, of course . . . . LINK

So, pretty good year.

I’ve had the opportunity on a good number of occasions to observe Peterson in action in jam sessions.  I’m guessing that he’s not a Wernick Method certified jammer; he seems to be a bit of a control freak.  Having said that, I’ll also say that if he’s pickin’ or performing anywhere near me, I’m going to go and listen to him.  He’s a terrific singer who sings a lot of terrific songs.  Below is a link to one of his recordings.

I Still Write Your Name In The Sand