Just ask the guitarist. Hopefully your guitarist is open to the idea of playing at a compatible volume level. I don’t think muting the guitar strum is great for the style of music you are playing but the strum can be quiet (I also play guitar).

Alternatively, I focus on playing single notes more if there is a guitar or two and don’t do much brushing. Single notes cut through better and add the clawhammer rhythm without competing with the guitar’s strum.

Cheers,
Michelle

Definitley competition there. Both clawhammer and guitar are carrying the rhythm. As a guitar player myself i always gauge when to back off or push my rhythm to the forefront. For old time music the rhythm player should be very steady without a bunch of rhythmic dynamics. Bluegrass rhythm has more wiggle room. But nobody wants a rhytm player who just bangs the heck out of his guitar

So what you are looking for is separation through the sound system or the recording. The person doing the mix can separate them by making one or (not often) both brighter, by separating the effects so each has its own separate effect. Take for instance if they are running through a single reverb channel and you solo it out, all you’ll hear is a mush of both instruments. One trick I used to do was hard pan either instrument to opposite sides of the mix and then cross the effects the other way. So for instance you could have banjo hard panned left with its effect hard panned right, with the guitar hard panned right and its effect hard panned to the left. Then you have clear separation.

Does the guitarist use a pickup or play into a mic?

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

Does the guitarist use a pickup or play into a mic?

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When/if I play another square dance, I'm pretty sure the guitarist will be using a mic. And in all my past experiences watching old time string band, I think everybody has been using mics 99% of the time, with occasional exceptions for fiddles and one time I remember a banjo using a pick up. (But maybe people use pickups more often and I just haven't noticed. But in square dance settings I think I can confidently everybody is always using mics)

I own a Goodtime, as well as a Sierra open back with a full blown tone ring. I love my Goodtime, but with the band or at jams, it’s like a tiny toy pop gun fighting with real guns. Seriously think about getting a tone ringed banjo, and return fire. Check out Steve Martin and his Clawgrass banjo, and how it cuts through the mix. My Sierra open back has the same tone ring, and it’s what I play out with.
youtube.com/watch?v=pMJxraw6KVM

This youtube.com/watch?v=B8nROWWss_...t_radio=1 was the tune of the week last week, The Golden Ticket. Once the fiddle and guitar got going I couldn't hear the banjo much at all except for some rhythmic chops. Is it my ears or is this what you are talking about? banjered

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Originally posted by bFunk

3. Ask the guitarist to focus more on the "boom" in their "boom chuck" and/or mute/muffle the higher-pitched strings on the "chuck". Is this a common discussion between banjo players and guitarists? I worry that I might come off as a diva by making this request?

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This is usually the source of the problem from my experience playing with other guitarists. Between voicing full open chords, plowing through the high strings instead of brushing over them, and over-strumming rhythms that don't leave much rhythmic space for the banjo, it can be easy to get buried especially on an open-back. Frankly, its not a conversation I'd ever want to have so now I own an archtop resonator that can peel the paint off my walls for those kind of scenarios.

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Originally posted by banjered

This youtube.com/watch?v=B8nROWWss_...t_radio=1 was the tune of the week last week, The Golden Ticket. Once the fiddle and guitar got going I couldn't hear the banjo much at all except for some rhythmic chops. Is it my ears or is this what you are talking about? banjered

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I would say this is a pretty balanced recording compared to what I often hear. I can hear the banjo's distinct melodic lines if I listen for them. That being said, this is an example of where I think the banjo should be at a minimum. I would definitely prefer more banjo in the mix. The typical level of clawhammer in most mixes makes me think that listeners or producers either: 1) don't actually like the sound of banjo, or 2) don't know what a banjo sounds like, so they don't even recognize that it's missing.

Makes me feel a bit like an old man ranting at the clouds, but it bugs the hell out of me.

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Originally posted by Dean T

I own a Goodtime, as well as a Sierra open back with a full blown tone ring. I love my Goodtime, but with the band or at jams, it’s like a tiny toy pop gun fighting with real guns. Seriously think about getting a tone ringed banjo, and return fire. Check out Steve Martin and his Clawgrass banjo, and how it cuts through the mix. My Sierra open back has the same tone ring, and it’s what I play out with.
youtube.com/watch?v=pMJxraw6KVM

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I suspect you may be right. But I've tried a lot of banjos over the years, and I keep coming to the conclusion that I like the warm, simple tone of my Goodtime. I'm not a big fan of the popcorn/hollow sound that I come across with some other (more expensive) banjos. Also, I've been completely spoiled by the Goodtime's light weight, but I'm willing to sacrifice that if it means being able to be heard more consistently.

Is there a style of tone ring or banjo that is known for producing a simple, warm tone while producing more volume?

quote:

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Originally posted by banjered

This youtube.com/watch?v=B8nROWWss_...t_radio=1 was the tune of the week last week, The Golden Ticket. Once the fiddle and guitar got going I couldn't hear the banjo much at all except for some rhythmic chops. Is it my ears or is this what you are talking about? banjered

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Here's the Onlies' track of Karen Collins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9NaZDVUbtk&list=RDB8nROWWss_A&index=6

I feel like the banjo is a bit more prominent in this than in the track of the Golden Ticket you sent, but again, I could use more banjo. I guess maybe my preference is for the banjo to be a co-lead instrument with the fiddle. I feel like even if the fiddle and banjo have equal volumes, the fiddle will "cut through" more because of its sustain and texture.

Evie Ladin has a couple fiddle-banjo duet albums I like where the mix is more banjo heavy. Here's a track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9wFOfbAzD0

I guess I'm curious if you can keep this balance while adding a guitar, or if the guitar is just inherently gonna lessen the impact of the banjo.

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...Is there a style of tone ring or banjo that is known for producing a simple, warm tone while producing more volume?

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I hope folks with more experience than myself see this question, and respond. Over 20 years ago I went from my first Goodtime, to a series of full blown flathead tone ring banjos, and have never played any other type of tone ring. My Open back Sierra is the first open back I've had with the Deering 06 tone ring (same ring they use in their high end resonator banjos). I don't know how you could get a louder open back, and it's nice to have head room to use dynamics, instead of trying to pull the strings off to be heard. But, I'm also using a frosted head. They guy I bought the banjo from, had a fiberskin head on it, and he had used the banjo for years in an old time band. It was plenty loud, but the tone was definitely warmer/simplified/dulled. I'm playing with two guitarists, and a dobro, and sometimes drums, and I went to the frosted head and heavier strings after only one jam. What I'm getting at, is get some experienced answers about louder tone ring options, and then tweak the set up to the tone you want. 

I've also found it interesting that the beautiful simple sweetness of a Goodtime at home, is exactly what gets ate for lunch in the mix. And that obnoxious loud bright tone ring volume and attack that makes you cringe at home, is exactly what you need, to be heard in the mix.  I rarely play my tone ringed banjos at home without a mute, and I never play out with my Goodtime anymore, but it gets almost all my home playing. 

Won't solve all the problems, but consider using a brass clawhammer pick like a pro-pik. May help boost volume and attack definition.

I've never played a banjo with a Kavanjo PU, but I'd expect a humbucker stuck to the head to mute the acoustic tone of the instrument quite severely!

If you really like your Goodtime, you should try swapping that Kavanjo out for a regular top-frosted head. Not a Fiberskyn-- it's too thick. If you're looking for a sound more appropriate to public ensemble playing, though, I'd consider that a good excuse to do some banjo shopping. You wouldn't have to spend a whole lot to get a banjo with considerably more volume and projection.

As for amplification, I don't like having to pay attention to playing to a mic on a stand, especially for dances. I have found that an omnidirectional mini electret condenser mic mounted to the banjo so it's suspended ~1/2 inch from the head (usually on a little flexible wire gooseneck clipped to the tailpiece) gives a really good acoustic tone, and plenty of gain before feedback. Yes, you do want an omni mic! A cardioid (directional) mic that close to the sound source will give you wonky frequency response due to proximity effect, and will NOT reject feedback any better than an omni in this setup.

A pick-up such as a Jones or Fishman with a Fishman preamp sounds great and is easily balanced to any other instruments.
Banjos sound great when played through a bass amp like a '63 B-15N.

"I kind of take it personally when I experience this. It feels like the banjo player is on stage as an aesthetic prop."
I'm of two minds on your query. First, if you are playing fiddle tunes on banjo==playing what the fiddler plays." aren't you already an "aesthetic prop?" Do you want the fiddle to be loudest, next banjo, then guitar? That sounds a bit nasty, but there are many things to play on banjo besides fiddle tunes. But you are asking about amplified dance situations, where accompanying the fiddler is what happens.

On the other hand, what can you do to enhance the banjo's volume?
1. If you stuff your banjo, stop it. Many people like the duller tone that stuffing produces, but it also makes the banjo quieter.
2. Pick harder. I learned to play on a bad banjo that was quiet, so I picked hard,. I still have the habit of picking forcefully. I'm met clawhammerers with tone-ring banjos who played with a light and quiet touch. They were quieter than any other instrument.
3. Buy a louder banjo. I bought a used Deering open back Sierra on BHO Marketplace for about half its cost new. It has the same tone ring as the Deering claw grass model.I have to keep it stuffed at jams or people tell me "it's too loud!" Sometimes you can find early 20th century banjos converted to 5 string for sale such as Vega white ladies and tubaphones. These have wonderful tone and volume. At most times they can be found for way under the price of a newly hand-built open back .Just look for "reproduction neck," "tenor with recent 5-string neck," or some such wording. The intact original 5-strings cost an arm and a leg.
4. Discuss sound balance with the other band members. Tell them your concerns.

When everyone sends a strong signal the soundman has the best chance of mixing everything evenly.
If there is no soundman the monitors must be equal for everyone.

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Originally posted by steve davis

When everyone sends a strong signal the soundman has the best chance of mixing everything evenly.
If there is no soundman the monitors must be equal for everyone.

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We had the opportunity last year, to play for a church service, and sound was set by one of the most experienced and popular musician and music personality in our city. Interestingly, he set the banjo and dobro first. Then brought the vocals in, then set guitars last. It was the best multi channel sound mix we've ever had.

When we set our own sound, with multi channel mixer, we absolutely HAVE TO set monitors equal, and the same mix into the monitors is what goes to the mains. However... we've gone to a single mic set up, and instantly, all those headaches are gone. 

Oh, as a banjo player myself, I have come to realize, that’s “all banjo all the time“, does not appeal to many people.

of course this does not apply, IMHO, to strict Bluegrass or old-time bands. Mostly.

As a guitarist and mandolin player as well, I find that claw hammer occupies, no dominates, all four beats, fully and relentlessly. It fills and replaces a great deal of rhythm which otherwise might be supplied by mandolin and bass. Not a bad thing, but, in terms of instrumental separation, arrangement, and overall sound, its different. Otoh, i too have been the ‘token’ banjo , more for visual than participation. Claw and fiddle is a full band sound. Anything more can sound cluttered to my ear. I agree a busy guitarist, boom-chukakka-chukka can be a mess too.

Digging in at the bridge adds cut. So does my EMG that floats under the head, when plugged in...a rarity for me. Most sound i deal with is either single mic, or, several suspended over the stage.

Also, in the video recordings I have had with various bands, using a single mic, I have sheepishly realized that playing quietly in the background several feet away from the mic still overwhelms , no obliterates, a guitarist dead center and close to the mic.

My point? Sound men are going to have their own take on what sounds good. I’d also suggest that monitors don’t always reveal the sound out front through the mains.

Having just read the thread “shut up“, it has made me, again, aware that dynamics, silence, and other variation with the banjo should be forefront in my mind.

I forgot to mention using finger picks or thimbles made for down stroke picking. Kelly Freedom picks are one brand. I tried them and found the notes from my trailing finger TOO LOUD, much louder than the other note. They were uncomfortable until I filed out the sharp corners. Some people find them useful.

There are many others brands of claw finger pics. Some people just buy a regular guitar plastic finger pic an turn it backwards on their finger.

Fiddle is Ego

Try getting them to use dynamics like bluegrassers do. People have ears.

Build a small megaphone from a shortened hydraulic fluid funnel and tape it to a mike stand.

If’n they don’t modify their style, then talk with them about it.

I have never heard a Fiddle quiet down

It’s true the banjo and guitar share the same rhythm and string timbre.

I use picks all the time, no plastics, and to vamp I just frail softly instead of boom chik

You are talking about everyone playing at the same time, I can’t see a sound man solving all of that, I think the solution is with communication.

Our bass player also ran the soundboard (2 Bose poles) and did fine,but our best sound was when we used a dedicated soundman.
As with everything else the soundmen have their own ways.
Some are less knowledgeable with acoustic instruments,coming from electric rock bands.
Kind of like an electric guitar guy setting up a banjo.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lew H

"I kind of take it personally when I experience this. It feels like the banjo player is on stage as an aesthetic prop."
I'm of two minds on your query. First, if you are playing fiddle tunes on banjo==playing what the fiddler plays." aren't you already an "aesthetic prop?" Do you want the fiddle to be loudest, next banjo, then guitar? That sounds a bit nasty, but there are many things to play on banjo besides fiddle tunes. But you are asking about amplified dance situations, where accompanying the fiddler is what happens.

On the other hand, what can you do to enhance the banjo's volume?
1. If you stuff your banjo, stop it. Many people like the duller tone that stuffing produces, but it also makes the banjo quieter.
2. Pick harder. I learned to play on a bad banjo that was quiet, so I picked hard,. I still have the habit of picking forcefully. I'm met clawhammerers with tone-ring banjos who played with a light and quiet touch. They were quieter than any other instrument.
3. Buy a louder banjo. I bought a used Deering open back Sierra on BHO Marketplace for about half its cost new. It has the same tone ring as the Deering claw grass model.I have to keep it stuffed at jams or people tell me "it's too loud!" Sometimes you can find early 20th century banjos converted to 5 string for sale such as Vega white ladies and tubaphones. These have wonderful tone and volume. At most times they can be found for way under the price of a newly hand-built open back .Just look for "reproduction neck," "tenor with recent 5-string neck," or some such wording. The intact original 5-strings cost an arm and a leg.
4. Discuss sound balance with the other band members. Tell them your concerns.

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Hi Lew,

Thanks for your input. To address your suggestions one-by-one:

1. I've long ago unstuffed my banjo
2. I think I already pick pretty hard; any harder and I worry about tensing up and/or damaging my nail
3. Thanks for the suggestions, I'm starting to browse
4. I feel a little self-conscious about doing this, but objectively there's no reason not to have this discussion

Respectfully, I will say your line "First, if you are playing fiddle tunes on banjo==playing what the fiddler plays." aren't you already an "aesthetic prop?"" does come across as condescending and nonsensical. "Fiddle" tunes can be played and enjoyed in all sorts of solo and group contexts, including without a fiddle at all (the New Kentucky Colonels "Live in Sweden 1973" album comes to mind; yes, it's bluegrass, but they play several "fiddle" tunes).

It's totally fair for people to have preferences on what instruments they enjoy hearing, and if they don't enjoy hearing a banjo or mandolin or theramin or musical saw, then simply don't include those instruments in the ensemble. But I totally reject the idea that any instrument should be reduced to an aesthetic prop. What's the point of having an instrument on stage if it's not to be heard?

Thanks again.

quote:

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Originally posted by bFunk

quote:

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Originally posted by Dean T

I own a Goodtime, as well as a Sierra open back with a full blown tone ring. I love my Goodtime, but with the band or at jams, it’s like a tiny toy pop gun fighting with real guns. Seriously think about getting a tone ringed banjo, and return fire. Check out Steve Martin and his Clawgrass banjo, and how it cuts through the mix. My Sierra open back has the same tone ring, and it’s what I play out with.
youtube.com/watch?v=pMJxraw6KVM

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1)   I like the warm, simple tone of my Goodtime.   

2)  I'm not a big fan of the popcorn/hollow sound that I come across with some other (more expensive) banjos.

3)  Also, I've been completely spoiled by the Goodtime's light weight, but I'm willing to sacrifice that if it means being able to be heard more consistently. 

Is there a style of tone ring or banjo that is known for producing a simple, warm tone while producing more volume?  Yes.

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Goodtime Gumby with multiply rim.  This is a dead end for volume and tone; get a 'special' or add a rolled type brass ring for decent function.

Goodtime modern with 3-ply rim.  These are a quality rim and sound nice.  Volume on plain un-topped rims is weak.  Maybe, add a resonator to focus the volume that is produced (hollow/popcorn potential).  Using an amber head and/or wound third string will help with volume.

Heavy and the tone is set-up dependant.  Do what Dean says and get a full 3# flathead openback banjo; use a 'suede' head to warm-up the tone.  This set-up has a strong warm tone and is a good lesson for the right hand on volume control.  Be careful, one flathead on a good maple rim will swamp all of the guitars .

Lighter and the tone varies.  Whyte Laydie multi-piece types, rolled, exotic wood toppers and/or spun variants have better volume than simple wood.  These are a good compromise between a stage/performance oriented banjo and a simple wood rim.

Lighter and the tone is warm.  The Dobson/Bacon types mounted without a rolled ring underneath tend to be lower volume; like a Goodtime with better note separation.  These are living room gems.

notes: 

My current compromise for playing with others is an 11 x 3.5 x 5/8" 3-ply maple rim assembly, WL type ring, open-back, frosted head, full size brass tailpiece, wound third and compensated bridge.  It has a simple clean tone, enough volume to fully support a fiddle, or two, and can be dialed back for background fill.  

Wound third strengthens volume and maintains a warmer tone.  https://www.banjohangout.org/blog/37187

Compensated bridges support a warmer tone compared to the more edgy straight bridge, no volume penalties. 

Full length brass bridges help clean-up unwanted tones associated with steel strings and louder banjos.  no volume penalty.

Suede heads have a strong warm tone temperament with a small volume penalty.