No trickery.

I can't do it either, but I've seen it done.

youtube.com/watch?v=QaAbUYyYFVc

youtube.com/watch?v=lNRFoFjphOk

". . . standard Scruggs style . . . "

Yep.  At about 180 beats per minute, that's what standard Scruggs style sounds like.  Not many players can get to that point cleanly.  Impressive!

I've been in some jams with pickers that could pick that fast. To me, it's just too fast as the notes begin to get blurred instead of clean and clear.

There’s a fella in our Friday night jam that can play at those speeds plus some because he’s doing it with a tenor with a flat pick and a guitar. Boy when he gets wrong (only occasionally) it goes spectacularly wrong. What a player!

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex Z

". . . standard Scruggs style . . . "

Yep.  At about 180 beats per minute, that's what standard Scruggs style sounds like.  Not many players can get to that point cleanly.  Impressive!

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This cracked me up because as I was typing it I was thinking "theres nothing 'standard' about this!" I guess I meant is it really just one guy using one hand to pick all those notes?? I know it is, but the existence of that kind of ability seems as likely as two banjo pickers playing in unison but alternating every other note. One learned the even, the other learned the odd and together they play at Pruett speed. 

Marc Pruett's kickoff is the 16 measures that comprise the verse of the song. It takes him 10 seconds to do that. That's 192 beats/minute.  As others have said, there's no trickery; it's just pure Scruggs-style playing with testosterone oozing out from under his picks.

Here's another one from J. D. Crowe, back in the days when his hair was still red, and he still wore his strap over his right shoulder.

J. D. Crowe - Train 45

What's the saying? I wish I could do that, and then not do it?

It's super impressive but I don't actually like listening to it. The old Roy Acuff version is more my speed.

Just my subjective take. There's a lot of Marc's playing that I really enjoy listening to, though.

That Train 45 video was already in my saved folder on youtube! I really like that version of the song and the video has lots of fun details too. The lady near the end who’s holding binoculars backwards and upside down always makes me laugh

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

What's the saying? I wish I could do that, and then not do it?

It's super impressive but I don't actually like listening to it. The old Roy Acuff version is more my speed.

Just my subjective take. There's a lot of Marc's playing that I really enjoy listening to, though.

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I’m in total agreement with you. I’m only interested in playing that fast as a parlor trick but I don't see a way to express emotion in that kind of speed. The speed kind of overrides any emotion and turns it to joyous amusement. That's extremely valuable and much needed, but its not what I’m trying to do with music. You wouldnt play like that to sing about loss or hope but its perfect if you want to sing about a fast train fastly going fast. 

The Jim Van Cleve Train 45 makes J.D. sound slow by comparison.
 

earlstanleycrowe,

The kickoffs on the Van Cleve recording and on the J. D. Crowe video both take 20 seconds, so the tempos for both performances are essentially the same.

quote:

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Originally posted by mikeb210

Is Marc Pruett using standard Scruggs style playing or is there some secret, advanced technique that I've never heard about that enables that combination of speed and clarity? . . . Is he really just that fast or is it some trickery that makes it sound that way?

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Yes, it's really that fast.

The only "trick" is the technique known as KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Seriously, for most mere mortals the key to playing this fast is to pare it down. No hot licks with broken patterns. Minimal thumb-index-thumb-middle or backward roll. Lots of forward roll and roll-based licks that substitute for melody.

In other words: Take out all the "advanced" stuff and stick to the most basic Scruggs technique, executed extremely well.

When the Dillards first came on the scene in the early 60s, some critics accused them of speeding up the tapes. Of course, it was real. But while he was very fast, it sounds like Doug Dillard wasn't as fast as Marc Pruett.

Here he is, several decades older, still pretty fast. Same tune.

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

earlstanleycrowe,

The kickoffs on the Van Cleve recording and on the J. D. Crowe video both take 20 seconds, so the tempos for both performances are essentially the same.

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I used one of those tempo-tapper websites and it seems like J.D. was in the 180 bpm range and Jim was in the 190 range. Of course this is limited by my own ability to tap on tempo.

I can say that I find J.D.'s version a lot more listenable.

here it is at 70% tempo and it sounds like the usual Earl style

Boy that last 30% sure makes a difference! Sounds great at 70% too

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by mikeb210

Is Marc Pruett using standard Scruggs style playing or is there some secret, advanced technique that I've never heard about that enables that combination of speed and clarity? . . . Is he really just that fast or is it some trickery that makes it sound that way?

---

Yes, it's really that fast.

The only "trick" is the technique known as KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Seriously, for most mere mortals the key to playing this fast is to pare it down. No hot licks with broken patterns. Minimal thumb-index-thumb-middle or backward roll. Lots of forward roll and roll-based licks that substitute for melody.

In other words: Take out all the "advanced" stuff and stick to the most basic Scruggs technique, executed extremely well.

When the Dillards first came on the scene in the early 60s, some critics accused them of speeding up the tapes. Of course, it was real. But while he was very fast, it sounds like Doug Dillard wasn't as fast as Marc Pruett.

Here he is, several decades older, still pretty fast. Same tune.

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Ken, I appreciate you linking to that tune. I’m going to have to spend some time studying his hands and see if I cant gain some ground on that song as well. I find its much easier to learn by ear if I can watch the hands at the same time. My ears will hear all kinds of movement and then the film shows that its all happening in one position. So much to learn

I met Marc 50 years ago back when he had the music store in Asheville. He was good then, and he’s had plenty of time to practice since.
Hard driving bluegrass was always his happy place.

quote:

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Originally posted by mikeb210

I find its much easier to learn by ear if I can watch the hands at the same time. My ears will hear all kinds of movement and then the film shows that its all happening in one position. 

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Yes. It can be deceptive.

I'm going out on a limb guessing this, but I think the first string D being only a major third (three frets) higher than the second string, is part of what allows what we hear as upward movement to take place in very little space.

It's something I only unravel if I sit down to work out something form a recording, which I don't do so much any more.

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I met Marc 50 years ago back when he had the music store in Asheville. He was good then, and he’s had plenty of time to practice since.
Hard driving bluegrass was always his happy place.

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This explains why I've never seen a picture of the man without a huge smile on his face 

quote:

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Originally posted by mikeb210

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I met Marc 50 years ago back when he had the music store in Asheville. He was good then, and he’s had plenty of time to practice since.
Hard driving bluegrass was always his happy place.

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This explains why I've never seen a picture of the man without a huge smile on his face 

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Ha! Yeah, Marc never needed drugs - he's already "high" on banjo. 

seems llke I figured this at 200 once and decided to quit going for the impossible after that--Merle could always nail scruggs and crowe goodies

FWIW, the Johnson Mountain Boys clip of "Long Journey Home" (linked in my comment above) is around 192 BPM. Tom Adams was 29 years old when that was recorded, and playing with a band that toured constantly, so he was young and very much in practice. There was also caffeine involved, so I've been told. ;^)

Watching the video of that entire "Old Schoolhouse" concert, I've noticed that while there are a few real burners like that (e.g. "John Henry" and "Going To Georgia", they're always followed by much slower numbers. Good bands understand the entertainment value of speed, but they also understand pacing over the course of a set.

Nobody click those links!

:D