What helped me move in my playing was playing. I listened like an addict to Earl in the beginning. Everything I could get my hands or rather ears on. I visualized his hands and could somehow separate each note in my head. When I didn't have an actual banjo in my hands, I was thinking of a song and "picking" the song with my right hand on my leg or gear shift in the car. Then, I would play with records (CD's), especially songs/licks I didn't know. I would play how I thought it was being played on the record and try to get what I played with the record until I got it right to my ear. I also watched other players, in person as much as possible but just watching the right hand, the patterns and dynamics, the position on the banjo head, etc. Just completely emersed myself in the banjo.

So, IMO, keep collecting data. Play with records of who you like and get to where you know those songs on the records inside and out. Then you'll start connecting the data and be able to play songs how YOU want/hear them in your head.

Good luck!
- WV

Since you asked, I'd recommend learning more tunes, note for note from the masters' breaks.  Everything you need to know on the banjo is in the playing of the masters.  

Similar to learning to talk or to speak a new language, can't just practice individual words -- which for the banjo might be called "rolls."  Have to learn to speak phrases and be able to put the phrases together into sentences.

And you want to learn the language from a native speaker.  

If after several years you know only a "dozen or so" tunes, then learning tunes is the way to go.  Learning tunes you like that are on recordings you can hear.   Let go of the disconnected bits and pieces/licks for a while.

Hope this helps.

I note you say nothing about playing with others. About jamming.

Personally, I think this should be every players goal: how to acquire the skills necessary to jam. That requires, first and foremost, the ability to recognize and follow a chord progression in various keys. Part of this is knowing the I-IV-V in G (G-C-D), C (C-F-G), A (A-D-E), D (D-G-A), B (B-E-F#), E (E-A-B), and F (F-Bb-C); learning to hear how it sounds to go from the I to IV and I to V, etc.; and finding those chords along the neck. Then add the II and vi chords with those sounds (e.g., II-V-I). And learn about VI-II-V-I and III-IV progressions. (Learning to recognize the look of these chords when played by others on a guitar also helps.) Even if it's only to vamp the proper chords, using closed chords in various parts of the neck, as long as you're doing it in time with other players, you'll be taking a major step forward.

Forget soloing for the moment. Get the feel of playing chords behind others first. A simple vamp. Then a more embellished vamp. Then a roll. No melody, just the proper chords.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake first-time jammers make is trying to bite off too much too soon. This only increases the risk of a deflating experience and not wanting to come back. So baby steps, get fully comfortable, then more baby steps.

If you are using back up rolls start using them and what you have learned and OMG play country songs. Start with Buck Owens "Together Again". Key of G. Merl Haggard , Ray Price, Marty Robbins...our band plays them all. Adding some country music will enhance your style while being different in your own banjo high. Try " Faded Love" in key of D and the FIDDLE will love you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

I note you say nothing about playing with others. About jamming.

Personally, I think this should be every players goal: how to acquire the skills necessary to jam. That requires, first and foremost, the ability to recognize and follow a chord progression in various keys. Part of this is knowing the I-IV-V in G (G-C-D), C (C-F-G), A (A-D-E), D (D-G-A), B (B-E-F#), E (E-A-B), and F (F-Bb-C); learning to hear how it sounds to go from the I to IV and I to V, etc.; and finding those chords along the neck. Then add the II and vi chords with those sounds (e.g., II-V-I). And learn about VI-II-V-I and III-IV progressions. (Learning to recognize the look of these chords when played by others on a guitar also helps.) Even if it's only to vamp the proper chords, using closed chords in various parts of the neck, as long as you're doing it in time with other players, you'll be taking a major step forward.

Forget soloing for the moment. Get the feel of playing chords behind others first. A simple vamp. Then a more embellished vamp. Then a roll. No melody, just the proper chords.

In my opinion, the biggest mistake first-time jammers make is trying to bite off too much too soon. This only increases the risk of a deflating experience and not wanting to come back. So baby steps, get fully comfortable, then more baby steps.

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+1  Playing with small groups of musicians speeds up progress and fills gaps.

Remember, no means no.  Passing on breaks and calls is a big stress reducer at jams; beware of letting individuals or the group peer pressure you into taking breaks or calling tunes until you are ready and want to do it.  Balance fitting in with the group and your needs; prioritizing you.

Howdy, Rich
I know you have been tirelessly working on your banjo skills and I applaud your efforts! I know you are active in jams and also attending workshops and I think you are making good progress. The responses you have gotten from other pickers on this thread all offer very good suggestions. Your question lists a number of options you are considering. Knowing you personally and your banjo accomplishments, I would suggest improvising and creating your own breaks on tunes you already know. Creating your own breaks (not learning someone else's) could then be used as a springboard to learn to play a new song your own way--applying your knowledge, licks, rolls and "pulling melody notes" out of various chord positions up and down the neck. This is when you will start tying all your pieces of knowledge and skill together. Best wishes to you, my friend!

quote:

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Originally posted by wes_vanderpool

What helped me move in my playing was playing. I listened like an addict to Earl in the beginning. Everything I could get my hands or rather ears on. I visualized his hands and could somehow separate each note in my head. When I didn't have an actual banjo in my hands, I was thinking of a song and "picking" the song with my right hand on my leg or gear shift in the car. Then, I would play with records (CD's), especially songs/licks I didn't know. I would play how I thought it was being played on the record and try to get what I played with the record until I got it right to my ear. I also watched other players, in person as much as possible but just watching the right hand, the patterns and dynamics, the position on the banjo head, etc. Just completely emersed myself in the banjo.

So, IMO, keep collecting data. Play with records of who you like and get to where you know those songs on the records inside and out. Then you'll start connecting the data and be able to play songs how YOU want/hear them in your head.

Good luck!
- WV

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Wes,

thanks for weighing in on this. When a player of your accomplishment gives us thoughts it is extremely helpful. 

ken

Thanks. I grew up in NY so bluegrass wasnt too prevalent. Im trying to listen as much as i can now.

I agree with Rich: go to jams. That helped me more with my picking than anything else.

You have the basics, now get down to playing with others and understanding how a song is put together, why the chords are where they are. Go to jams, listen, watch. Learn some guitar chords and watch the rhythm guitar picker, get the feel about chord changes. Do a simple backup, vamping until you get the hang of it, then add rolls, partial rolls and/or hot licks at the end of a musical phrase.

From a theory perspective;

Bluegrass uses 8 of the 12 notes in an octave. Start looking at what you’re playing and analyze which pitches serve what purpose, three are chord tones, three are blue notes and two are country /boogie Woogie passing tones

Jamming basics, LOTS of listening, and ear training.

By "ear training", I mainly mean figuring out how to play melodies on your instrument--just the basic melody. It has to be a melody you know well, so you'll know when you've got it right.

The point of this is NOT to create a banjo arrangement (that can come later). The point is to get used to hearing sounds in your head, and forging a link between the sounds you hear, and the places on the fingerboard where those sounds reside--and what your hands have to do to get from one to the other.

Send me a PM if you want more detail.

Richard, I know exactly where you're coming from. Then one day I was lucky enough to pose the question to my banjo idol, Jens Kruger. You can watch it here. It begins at the 1:07:35 mark.
youtube.com/watch?v=pQHoxxTWX9o

He gives me the philosohical answer I was seeking, not the expected admonition to "practice more."

Joe, Wow. Thank you for sharing that answer. It opened my eyes

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

From a theory perspective;

Bluegrass uses 8 of the 12 notes in an octave. Start looking at what you’re playing and analyze which pitches serve what purpose, three are chord tones, three are blue notes and two are country /boogie Woogie passing tones

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If someone had told me this on day 1....

Had to figure it out for myself piecemeal.

NNYJoe, I think your post has been one of the best on this thread. Mr. Kruger spoke this wisdom so eloquently. Simple, wonderful, simply wonderful! Thank you!

quote:

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Originally posted by NNYJoe

Richard, I know exactly where you're coming from. Then one day I was lucky enough to pose the question to my banjo idol, Jens Kruger. You can watch it here. It begins at the 1:07:35 mark.
youtube.com/watch?v=pQHoxxTWX9o

He gives me the philosohical answer I was seeking, not the expected admonition to "practice more."

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That was a great segment, Joe. This is why Jens is such a wonderful player - and such an amazing human being. I've had the good fortune to listen to his wisdom on numerous occasions. The first time, I was in a small cabin at Banjo Camp North, and Joel and Uwe were with him, and Jens got a question about speed. He said something to the effect of "Speed doesn't matter. Let me show you." 

Jens has one of the fastest right hands God ever put on this earth; he started playing something like Fireball Mail or some other classic, then increasing the tempo by 50% every four measures, until in was a sonic blur. And he stopped, and asked "Is that music? It was, but then it became noise. Music is about touching hearts - our own, and if we're lucky, other people's as well. Let me show you."

At that point, he, Uwe and Joel went into what I personally think is one of his greatest pieces: "Beautiful Nothing." Look for it in YouTube if you're unfamiliar. It opens at a glacial pace and yes, it does include some of Jens's signature pyrotechnics, but at its core it is a very simple melody and chord structure, and it is exquisitely beautiful. It sure touches MY heart.

And now back to what's important with the original question: where do we go with this? The simple fact is that Jens could not compose, or execute, a tune like that without a somewhat daunting foundation. He's probably not about to tell you about the many thousands of hours it took him to develop the technique that is so distinctively his. He's likely not going to tell you of all the various pieces he listened to - and I mean LISTENED to, not just had going in the background, that taught him what kind of melody appealed to him, and thus were likely to appeal to others.

And even moreso, he's not likely to mention the thousands upon hours of practice that he put in to make his right and left hands so technically perfect, or the thousands more that he put in to make sure that they would work in sync. I've only had the luxury of a couple of short conversations with him, and he couldn't pick me out in a police lineup. But I do know this: he is a wonderfully kind man, and would never say anything to discourage a seeker.

The simple fact is this: his advice in this wonderful video is absolutely spot on. But it does NOT grant anyone special dispensation to skip the basics. We need to develop our tone, our timing, and our technique. We need to develop our senses of melody and dynamics. They're all second nature to Jens; he's been doing this for most of his life. For most of us, not so much.

The best things I can recommend are these: find a teacher who can identify your weaknesses and help you overcome them, and who can help you build on your strengths. And start playing with other people. In my experience, the problem most people struggling with "What's Next" have boils down to timing and learning how to work in an ensemble setting - and bluegrass banjo IS an ensemble instrument. Such a setting is incredibly valuable in helping to develop timing and understanding the structure of the music.

Play with others as often as you can (within reasonable parameters of course!) and make it a point to play with people who are BETTER than yourself! learn as many subtleties as possible, figure out what separates so - so pickers from good and great pickers. Be excited about it is number 1! Don't rely on tab to play - that is for learning, not picking in jam sessions. The banjo is simply moving too fast for anyone to play by using tab. IF I EVER actually see that in person I would be absolutely amazed!! Realize that it doesn't need to happen overnight. Speed, tone, timing, an assortment of licks and tricks and tunes, the ability to pick both fast and SLOW tunes, and all those little things that make a "complete picker" will accumulate over time. Listen to EVERYONE. Of course you will have your favorites, but realize and know that nearly everyone has something that can be an interesting addition to your arsenal of banjo knowledge. Be humble about the whole thing regardless of how good or advanced you eventually become, because it is just a banjo!! Be willing to show others. Be willing to watch others. First and foremost, enjoy it! It is the most fun instrument ever made by human hands!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

Jamming basics, LOTS of listening, and ear training.

By "ear training", I mainly mean figuring out how to play melodies on your instrument--just the basic melody. It has to be a melody you know well, so you'll know when you've got it right.

The point of this is NOT to create a banjo arrangement (that can come later). The point is to get used to hearing sounds in your head, and forging a link between the sounds you hear, and the places on the fingerboard where those sounds reside--and what your hands have to do to get from one to the other.

Send me a PM if you want more detail.

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Ira, you are far more of an expert than I, but shouldn't it be: chords first, then melody? By that I mean, shouldn't you first establish a song's chord progression, and while holding those chords, only then try hunting down the melody?

Because (1) as a melody can start on any note, this avoids you finding the melody in a crazy key, one you'd never use to play the song; (2) many melody notes already are in the chord, and those that are not can be found on predictable, recurring frets near the chord shape; so this gets you used to sensing those melody note-chord shape relationships; and (3) when you ultimately play the song, you'll have to hold chords and fret non-chord notes simultaneously, so this gets you used to those positions.

One of the most valuable things I was taught was to hold chords without using my left pinkie (e.g., F- and D-shape chords on strings 1-3 only with the index, middle and ring fingers, unless you need to play the 4th string). This left my left pinkie free to hunt down melody notes at or above the top of the chord. All those additional notes are in pinkie reach, and the pinkie might be my most dexterous finger. With a little practice, that finger started finding those non-chord notes around the chord shape pretty automatically. 

Well, yes, Rich. That's the longer answer, and I do try to impress that upon my students, for all the reasons you've pointed out. At the particular time I posted my comment, I was feeling just too lazy to go into detail. 

I must be a hopeless case, as I use my pinky for chords routinely. 

@eagleisland
“But it does NOT grant anyone special dispensation to skip the basics.“
Of course not, but he wasn’t saying that.
I cannot play all the notes I hear in my head. At times it can be a struggle. That struggle can be an enjoyable journey of exploration or it can be another trip to the salt mines of practice.
What makes it worth the effort?
The answer is in our heart.

I interpret Jens' response to Joe this way: You needn't try to copy the intricate fingerings of the best-ever banjo players to play enjoyably on the banjo. Perfectly wonderful banjo music can be made with the basics: a few rolls over a chord progression (with, hopefully, a recognizable melody interwoven and maybe a touch of ornamentation thrown in).

I've said this before: I've known a lot of fine guitar players who happily strum a bunch of chords and never think twice about trying to copy how notable guitarist X played riff Y in song Z. Meanwhile, banjo players never seem satisfied unless they have successfully mastered the intricacies of the greatest of all time. All perfectly fine, but not essential. 

quote:

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Originally posted by NNYJoe

@eagleisland
“But it does NOT grant anyone special dispensation to skip the basics.“
Of course not, but he wasn’t saying that.
I cannot play all the notes I hear in my head. At times it can be a struggle. That struggle can be an enjoyable journey of exploration or it can be another trip to the salt mines of practice.
What makes it worth the effort?
The answer is in our heart.

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Oh, I completely agree. And FTR my comment was not directed at you, but rather to the OP.