quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

The banjo world (or rather the 5-string banjo world as we do not much include the huge proprition of US and world banjoists who play the banjos with picks and play banjos with even numbered strings) has spent now very much of its life when there has been no real folk component of banjo playing by people who play banjo from any kind of folk tradition or role of banjo playing for living community functions. Bluegrass of course is the most dynamic and crucial part of the banjo world today precisely because it is an always innovating, modern, progressive music that demands an increasingly level of musical virtuosity and thought, and is powered by musicians who actually have to make a living with their music.
 

---

I wonder about that.  I am finding hereabouts an active community devoted to performance of old time music, including clawhammer banjo, with professional artists who definitely draw from American and international folk traditions.  Maybe it varies by locale?

I don't play clawhammer but have always listened in my decades of 3 finger
Seems there are almost 2 different mindsets in the style---Older by a couple of decades is a fast more chordal style at a faster tempo and now -a much more scale oriented (melodic) style a bit slower ,but really gets in there ,with the fiddle--I tend to think a resonator/tone ring type would fit the earlier style --but might not be as good for the later styling--
just a guess ,,of course the same player could own both--I'll have to run-down the spark-gap wonder boys --for some hard-punching example

another note was their  individual breaks instead of everyone plays at he same time

This is not the album I have but run this up to the 3 minute mark, if you want to hear a good intro

Of folk banjoists or old time banjoists,  we do not meant people like myself who profess to wish to play in a variety of ways that we think are associated with folk traditions that we have learned from books, and recordings and teachers.  By folk banjoists,  I mean people who have learning banjo as part of an actual community folk tradition in which the music made was part of the living life of the community, not a decision by people who enjoy and wish to revive or celebrate the music who did not learn it in their communities.   

There are certainly a large number of folk and old time revivalist players in Baltimore.  It was also once one of the thriving center of Bluegrass especially in the 1950s and 1960.  The great Del McCoury played Bluegrass Banjo when he lived in  Baltimore.  There is a very good book and some nice CDs of 50s and early 1960s bluegrass from Charm City.

   I have had deep friends in Charm City most of my 78 years.  I have been asked to present on Banjo History a number of times in the past four decades, but I have yet to hear of someone who lives in Baltimore today who learned the banjo their as part of a folk tradition in their community in Baltimore as opposed to a folk revivalist.  I do not mean from folk music enthusiasts, or old time music revivalists,  but people who emerged out of living  old time banjo tradition.  Fifty or 60 or 70 years ago there were certainly such players there who people like Mike Seeger met and thrived upon in Baltimore, but that is all over. 

There is a difference between people who make an intellectual decision to play old time music and people who are part of organic communities in which the music evolved.

Thank you, Don Borchelt and writerrad, for these personal histories. They're a gift, thanks for sharing. There's so much in there that connects pieces that are missing from other forms of history.

I'm on my way out the door, but Tony, does someone like Ola Belle Reed fit? Not from Baltimore, but moved to Rising Sun, MD about an hour away. And her music is particularly relevant to the thread as someone who played clawhammer on a resonator and wrote and sang songs, yet is fully celebrated within the old time tradition. Now, do her songs show up at jams? Depends on the jam, right?

And on that, I'm always struck with how much a person or a few people can influence, create, and grow a community. The locality isn't always about where it is, but who is there. There's a ton to unpack here and the topic scratches a whole bunch of my interest itches.

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

By folk banjoists,  I mean people who have learning banjo as part of an actual community folk tradition in which the music made was part of the living life of the community, not a decision by people who enjoy and wish to revive or celebrate the music who did not learn it in their communities. 

There is a difference between people who make an intellectual decision to play old time music and people who are part of organic communities in which the music evolved.

 

---

Thank you for such a thoughtful explanation.  There's a lot to think about there!  

quote:

---

Originally posted by xnos2xnos2

I get the historical reason; clawhammer predates bluegrass, and open-backs came first. But practically speaking, wouldn’t a resonator help with projection and volume, especially in jams? Are there downsides?

Why does modern clawhammer still lean so heavily open-back? Is it just tone preference, or is there something about the technique that really pairs better with open-backs?

I’ve never seen a banjo that has both a claw hammer scoop, and also a closed-back resonator

I know this gets asked a lot, but I’m just curious what the reasoning is.

---

I really appreciate the historical discussion. Just as an aside, I play clawhammer on an open back and on a resonator with an arch top tone ring. I really like Don Borchelt's photo montage - it brings things into perspective.

But let's take a different approach. Suppose you heard banjo music for the first time and were hooked? Would you seek out jams or find an expert? Probably not, since you probably wouldn't know where to look. So, maybe you'd mosey down to your local music store. I think we have a good idea how literate they are about banjos. So, now you're in the hands of someone who knows a lot about guitars (maybe mainly electric ones), but very little about banjos - maybe (just) about the resonator/open back stereotype. You'll probably be steered in one direction, maybe even influenced by the stock on hand.

I started playing clawhammer thinking it was the "only" old time style  (despite starting with "Seeger style" picking), and only later learned that a variety of picking styles existed (just as Scruggs was not the first to do up-picking with metal finger picks) . People have their influences, plus, there's marketing factors at play. They like to categorize. First we had "folk", then "roots", then "Americana". Some of us love to go down the various rabbit holes and continue learning, others are quite content to sit back (clearly lots of rabbit hole divers here). I guess the line of least resistance is to accept the open back/resonator dichotomy, and fall for the streotype.

One of the problems of all of this is that a small core of serious banjo historians and researchers are very good at making fine distinctions about all sorts of issues of banjo history, but by and large are too excited by fiine distinctions known to the dedicated and the faithful, but are pretty poor at explaining such things to people who walk the Earth in a normal way.

This whole line of thought grows out of an idea among old time music revivalists that   open back banjos were what people played for Clawhammer, which is a strong notion of old time revivalists,  I know I was a victim of that and now wish when I was younger (limiting what banjos I am getting  since I own 7 at thje age of 78 ) that I had bought a good  resonator banjo when I was younger say when I was a kid in his 60s.   I have bought two fairly inexpensive RBs just to get at the music that a number of the musicians I study play who played such RBs..   There is simply no way to get at the music of a lot of the Black ad white old time banjoists I study by restricting yourself to an open back.

 I do play a lot of 2 finger and I think two finger banjoists even more tend to go with RBs.  Two finger playing is just as African derived and traditional as down picking, although there is a prejudice that down picking is older or the exclusive way banjo was played in the early days, but that is just a prejudice and not supported by the history.  

Ola Belle was a massive influence earlier in the Old Time Revival.  One person you might contact about her is Kathy Fink who was largely inspired by her and who is a totally serious and dedicated person.  Glassie has this book out about her which is now only available at a price over 400 bucks, but you might be able to get it through your institution.  Her music and singing is so good that you don't want to listen to much else for while after her.     There are probably enough people around who actually knew her or know much about her.   From what I get is she just kept entertaining, singing and hosting and kept her band going doing the music she liked in part because it enabled her to pay her bills.  .  

Paul your question reads like you are a person of my age who was young and unschooled before the Internet.   Yes,  back in the 1960s I got interested in old time banjo because in part I had the luck that a magnificent old time banjo player who was an old guy of 19 or 20, regularly gave me rides home from folk venues because I lived in his direction.  Who knows had that not been I might have become some kind of fiddler.'

Today, or even in previous years, a person who does not know often goes on the Internet.  She or he leaps over the road blocks of nobody around in their town and gets right to the right information.  The person can go on BanjoHangout or any number of web sites.  

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

Ola Belle was a massive influence earlier in the Old Time Revival.  One person you might contact about her is Kathy Fink who was largely inspired by her and who is a totally serious and dedicated person.  Glassie has this book out about her which is now only available at a price over 400 bucks, but you might be able to get it through your institution.  Her music and singing is so good that you don't want to listen to much else for while after her.     There are probably enough people around who actually knew her or know much about her.   From what I get is she just kept entertaining, singing and hosting and kept her band going doing the music she liked in part because it enabled her to pay her bills.  .  

---

Even though Earl's dad, who died when Earl was 8, apparemtly frailled,  Earl Scruggs never learned how to competently (to his idea of competence probably higher than mine) frail or claw hammer. 

Earl grew up on an area that was the hotbed of 2 and 3 finger finger picking with neighbors who were recording musicians and friends of his dad who played 3 finger.  In the cotton mill areas,  the mill villages often hired music teachers as part of the community building approach.  It was easy for Mill workers like Earl and Charlie Poole and others along the SC/NC piedmont to learn the guitar style of banjo.

Earl apparently did not learn frailing first but 2 finger and three finger banjo playing first.  Later when he was on the Grand Ole Opry Mr. Scruggs tried to get String Bean and others to teach him frailing, but people I know who knew him and discussed this with him said Mr. Scruggs could never get frailing to his satisfaction and never did so before the public.  

People who were raised right and have a proper life have learned to search YouTube for the videos of the Flatt and Scruggs Martha White TV show.  Of course senior like myself were wise enough to acquired these videos when they were being sold as VHS's or DVDs before there was YouTube.

If you have not availed yourself of that duty, you have an obligation to search YouTube for tje, or find a friend who has copies of these shows.  They will improve your life.   

You will note that when it is time for frailing  an old time tune on the show and there is not a guest frailer like Stringbean,, Earl Scruggs would put down his Gibson, and Paul Warren puts  down his fiddle. and Paul would pick up Earl's RB and frail up a storm!

This is slightly off topic. but this is such a crucial issue of education of contemporary banjoheads, that this is an urgent instruction.   Watching these shows is also a vision of how TV shows in the 50s were done live with people holding up products.   The Martha White commercials are just as edifying to the young as is the picking.

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

People who were raised right and have a proper life have learned to search YouTube for the videos of the Flatt and Scruggs Martha White TV show.  Of course senior like myself were wise enough to acquired these videos when they were being sold as VHS's or DVDs before there was YouTube.

---

I was raised right, have had a proper life, and never learned to search for them.  Please don't imply otherwise toward either myself or the millions (billions?) of people who have never heard of that show.

I feel sure -that was ''tongue in cheek ''humor at the over done rhetoric Lorenzo--

writerrad It looks like my last post didn't work correctly from my phone.

My note was a quick one, that Glassie's book is $400 for the print copy, but anyone interested can get it as a PDF download with a purchase of the digital album from Dust to Digital's Bandcamp page. It was a good read.

> Of course senior like myself were wise enough to acquired these videos when they were being sold as VHS's or DVDs before there was YouTube.

You've mentioned a few things like this now. I think the first was Monroe's Grand Ole Opry sound checks. This one is the Martha White show. I know that lots of these kinds of things are scattered around YouTube, but do you know of the publication info for the DVDs or VHSs that you're talking about? I'd love to see what I can find in a way that gives a bit more certainty than hoping for the correct recordings on YT.

I've been thinking about how researchers used to publish bibliographies. That's not particularly common now, but search doesn't do the same thing: a bibliography is complete (or at least complete within curated bounds). A collective bibliography of banjo content that includes historical work AND archival sources would be invaluable, though obviously a gargantuan task.

Since childhood. my family, preachers, nuns priests, teachers, and miscreants of all kind have told me to light a candle in the darkness,. so that those who have not seen the light can find their way.

I stumbled along in the darkness for many years,  so I feel gratitude to those who have show me the way

there used to be a thing on TV that said if everyone lit just one little candle what a bright world thist would be

Thank you

quote:Thanks.   There is a lot of Ola Belle on YouTube and a lot of ola belle on various recordings.  She is one musician that I find because she is so compelling and everything is so good, that you feel might not want to listen to something else.

As far as I know almost every one of the TV Martha White Programs that was for sale years ago on DVD is on YouTube somewhere.  If you look on the Net there are all kinds of air check recordings of the radio broadcasts of those shows.. 

I will now go over to Band camp, although I might have gotten it when I downloaded her shows.     She is just sooooo good!

---

Originally posted by cjwit

writerrad It looks like my last post didn't work correctly from my phone.

My note was a quick one, that Glassie's book is $400 for the print copy, but anyone interested can get it as a PDF download with a purchase of the digital album from Dust to Digital's Bandcamp page. It was a good read.

> Of course senior like myself were wise enough to acquired these videos when they were being sold as VHS's or DVDs before there was YouTube.

You've mentioned a few things like this now. I think the first was Monroe's Grand Ole Opry sound checks. This one is the Martha White show. I know that lots of these kinds of things are scattered around YouTube, but do you know of the publication info for the DVDs or VHSs that you're talking about? I'd love to see what I can find in a way that gives a bit more certainty than hoping for the correct recordings on YT.

I've been thinking about how researchers used to publish bibliographies. That's not particularly common now, but search doesn't do the same thing: a bibliography is complete (or at least complete within curated bounds). A collective bibliography of banjo content that includes historical work AND archival sources would be invaluable, though obviously a gargantuan task.

---

". I think the first was Monroe's Grand Ole Opry sound checks. This one is the Martha White show. I know that lots of these kinds of things are scattered around YouTube, but do you know of the publication info for the DVDs or VHSs that you're talking about? I'd love to see what I can find in a way that gives a bit more certainty than hoping for the correct recordings on YT."

You must not hang around with Bluegrass people. Since the 1940s, people who made wire recordings of the Bluegrass Boys on the post-war Grand Ole Opry have been circulating them, and first in little tinny record type things, then in the big tapes, but now they are on YouTube. They have been widely and almost publicly circulated by hand and are on several different bluegrass oriented web sites and YouTube pages.    No person should go through life without these recordings.  Earl and Monroe were on the same stage together inspiring or rivaling each other in the ecstatic and wonderful music that they were making.   Earl must have been 24 or 25 years old and Monroe had ot be just in his 30s and the audience at the Ryman was going crazy.     

The Martha White show was a television and radio program that  Lester Flatt, Earl Scruggs and the Foggy Montain Boys  had on syndicated radio stations mostly in the South in the late 1950s and early 1960s.  It was sponsored by the Martha White Flour company.    I think it was on every week day the band was in Nashville across a period of years. At first you could buy VHS tapes of them, then you could get DVDs.  About 12 of them are available in their entirety on YouTube.  I think elsewhere on the Internet there are sound recordings of more shows that are on YouTube.

Although we have met and I have enjoyed your wonderful scholarship and fellowship and I witnessed that you are a great player, that you have never heard of the F & S Martha White indicades deficiencies in our entire educational system.   

If someone does not post where this can be obtained here,  I will help you out.  

One thing is that bluegrass people have tended to be among the most advanced in electronics and recording and preserving and exchanging music of  this kind and making it available to others.

i WOULD HAVE TO Look.  I can send you links to where most of this is on the Internet or YouTube.  The Bluegrass world has had widespread and long last exchange of recordings that were not officially issued.  Really right up to around 1960 and sometimes afterwards, someone people trusted like Mike Seeger, and a number of other folks that I lesser known  to "civilians" make just take a reel to reel tape recorder with themselves to a bluegrass festival or band performance and instead of being run out by lawyers,  especially they were a known person would probably get assistance from a band or people running a show.   

There is so much stuff like this up various places it is amazing,    If you dont find stuff,  email me and I will put some of what I speak up on a cloud for you.   

quote:

---

Originally posted by cjwit

I've been thinking about how researchers used to publish bibliographies. That's not particularly common now, but search doesn't do the same thing: a bibliography is complete (or at least complete within curated bounds). A collective bibliography of banjo content that includes historical work AND archival sources would be invaluable, though obviously a gargantuan task.

---

Do you know De Smaele's A Five-String Banjo Sourcebook? It might be worth checking out. 

banjoboyd No, I don't. Thanks for the recommendation. I just requested a copy through my library. And his Banjo Attitudes, which I had known about and forgotten! It'll be good French practice, too. Birds and stones.

writerrad To be clear, I know of the show and I know of the performances, but I was excited about the possibility of a set of recordings (rather than the scattered YouTube clips I've seen). Some quick looking surfaced what you're talking about. I appreciate the suggestions, as it's simply not always easy to know what you should be looking for. The unknown unknown that comes early on. I also see that the Country Music Hall of Fame has many of these sources, but I get a sense from your description—and from others that came up when searching—that many folks out there have the kinds of tapes that don't show up in the main archival resources. I just worry that so much knowledge and so many sources are on the cusp of disappearing. Maybe that's not fair, though. If they're widely shared, they'll continue to exist, but they certainly risk remaining outside of the knowledge of folks entering these musical paths from outside.

This is all a different conversation, though. I apologize for my part in any forum drift.

quote:

---

writerrad To be clear, I know of the show and I know of the performances, but I was excited about the possibility of a set of recordings (rather than the scattered YouTube clips I've seen). Some quick looking surfaced what you're talking about. I appreciate the suggestions, as it's simply not always easy to know what you should be looking for...

---

If you open up YouTube and search for "Flat and Scruggs Television Show," about a dozen videos will pop up.  Here is the first one:

 

:What can  I say, I am a fossil who sits in a room with 2k books in it doesn't even get that the stuff you came from already came  when I ordered the Dust to digital set.  Some of us are stuck in low technology.

There are several sets of things. #1 the key the whole Grail, air checks (wire recordings of radio broadcasts) of Earl Scruggs performing with  Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys on the Grand Ole Oprey in 46 or early 47.  These are notable not only for Earl's performances but some of the greatest performances of any kind I have ever heard by Bill Monroe both as a vocalist and a mandolin player in response to Earl's performances, and the much neglected overall performance of that bands' combination.  I am sure wiser people than I realize the greatness of the rhythm work by the bassist and Lest Flatt on guitar.  None of that has ever been officially issued on a record by an official label, but unauthorized recordings of this stuff have been available since some point int he 1960s.   Google for and and you should find it, though most bluegrass people have that

A completely different thing is the audio and video recordings of the Television and Radio show sponsored by Martha White Flour that Flatt and Scruggs had in the 1950 and 1960s.  The best way to find this is on YouTube where multiple copies of a number of these shows are on YouTube.  There are both videos if the TV show and sound recordings of the radio broadcasts.  

Despite negative stereotypes about Bluegrassers, from the 40s on,  Bluegrass fans have been among the most technically and electronically adept people on Earth when it comes to finding and making this music available.  I dont have time to fo find links to this stuff, but you can usually find it with an easy Google search.