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Using the metronome-Part 2 clicks/durations

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Feb 17, 2010 - 10:05:58 AM

112 posts since 10/30/2009

Hi Mart,

If you mean one click for every TWO notes of a roll, then I would say that this is a good place to start until you feel comfortable enough playing with the metronome to try one click for every for notes of a roll. But, if you mean one click for EACH note of a roll, then I would advise against this, for this will teach you to give each note of the roll exactly the same duration instead of allowing you to play your rolls with 'bounce' in a long-short-long-short duration pattern.

Happy Pickin',

Jason

Feb 18, 2010 - 4:35:08 AM

154 posts since 6/9/2009

5th string, do you mean syncopation? Accented or stressed notes? Correct me if I am wrong but stressing a note has nothing to do with notes duration. 1/8 note is still 1/8 note even if it is accented.


 |       |       |       |        
|--------------------------------|
|0---0---0---0---0-------0-------|
|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|
|--------------------------------|
     ^       ^

second and fourth 1/8 are accented.

Edited by - bandzo on 02/18/2010 04:38:28

Mar 27, 2010 - 10:01:37 PM

1487 posts since 3/23/2010

I have to agree .Metronomes are difficult to hear and when you are off you may not know if you are in front of or behind the beat .I switched to pawn shop drum machines some time back.Something coming out of a decent sized speaker and defining a complete measure is much better for me.Usually i use a tom to simulate the bass and the snare for the mandolin chop .Maybe throw in ameasure with some conga.It's not something to take to the masses; so learn to stomp your feet in the process.

Apr 13, 2010 - 4:54:36 AM

OldFox

Canada

278 posts since 2/9/2005

Ok, I have finally read all this thread; one question, and this may sound stupid, but someone said there are no stupid questions, just people who are too stupid to ask them - maybe nobody said that... anyway the question is: If I set the metronome at 100 and play 2 notes per click, how may bpm am I playing? Thanks.

OldFox

Apr 13, 2010 - 9:11:27 AM

475 posts since 3/20/2006

That all depends on the time signature of the piece (4/4, 6/8, etc) and the time value of the note that you're playing (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc).

For example, if you're playing a standard bluegrass 8 note roll (which can be represented as 4/4 time) those are considered to be 8th notes (you're playing 8 of them each measure). If the metronome is set to 100, you're playing 2 notes per click, and you're playing a standard bluegrass roll (8 notes per measure), you're playing 100 beats per minute.

Pick it solid,

Chris

Apr 13, 2010 - 1:45:19 PM

OldFox

Canada

278 posts since 2/9/2005

Thanks Chris for the reply. I was thinking about 4/4 which is what most of the tab I have is in. That's the way I figured it, but wasn't sure. I'm just trying to get a handle on how to use the metronome - not easy for me, I know it's just a matter of practice to get it.

Apr 13, 2010 - 8:41:49 PM

1487 posts since 3/23/2010

I guess i will weigh in again.Certain songs i will set up to 170 or more ,most of the time this is some thing pretty much impossible to play at a blue grass tempo ,but makes up for it with some type of uniquness.These songs i would be doing 2notes to the beat.I have done this on certain ones and then when i got enough bugs ironed out ,i found myself switching over .In standard bluegrass the bass hits once to the lead players 4notes unless he or she is doing a few pick up notes.I find it difficult to blue grass instrumentals slower than 108 or so ,Yes it is good to get a song going 2 beats to a click but it will be easier and more fun when you get some of them at 2/4.You might try hitting square licks and pinches .titm then a thumb note twice as long then play two notes at the same time with your im,these will also be long notes.I would do this and hit diffrent chords.This is more metronome friendly.I used to tape a mike to mine. Tom Elder

May 21, 2010 - 9:13:01 PM

donc

Canada

6204 posts since 2/9/2010

I've been playing banjo for almost three years but the new use of the metronome has been a rude awakening. I play in a couple of jam groups now and I originally started with music in a high school band, so I've always considered myself to be very time and beat conscious. The use of the metronome has proven that I don't have a precision crystal clock pulser in my brain. I hope that the metronome will help improve this shortcoming. [Better late than never.....I hope!]

Jul 9, 2010 - 2:12:55 PM

172 posts since 4/9/2010

Does anybody know where to find the Part 1 of this? Thank you!

Jul 10, 2010 - 10:45:57 AM

13420 posts since 3/6/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Rick Anderson

Does anybody know where to find the Part 1 of this? Thank you!



Rick, I dug it up from the archives many months ago. Its been reposted in this thread. Go back to the first or second page and you'll find it.

Oct 24, 2010 - 6:41:02 PM

172 posts since 4/9/2010

Banjophobic, Thanks for posting this thread and all the other lessons you have posted. You have really helped me a lot! It's been raining here all weekend so I've finally had the opportunity to practice with counting and also with using the metronome. I find that forcing myself to count - rather than obsessing on thinking about my next lick - has really improved my playing in just two days. I wish I would have done it earlier because it is pretty hard to break six+ months of bad habits.

I have to say that I hate the electronic metronome because I find the electronic ping-pong noise very distracting. I would like to find a large old-school one with the big swinging pendulum. There is something very graceful about them - like an old clock.

I'll use the electronic metronome for something creative, like annoying my neighbors while I'm away. I'll put it on like 4 beats a minute then throw it their air conditioner ducts!

Oct 25, 2010 - 8:22:46 PM

13420 posts since 3/6/2006

Rick

Hey, thanks for watching and its always great to hear that the vids are helpful! I have a couple of online metronome sites saved, but my old Whittner wind up is still my favorite. There is something very nostalgic about them.

Nov 13, 2010 - 5:34:37 PM

tarheel

USA

1226 posts since 1/13/2004

Mr banjophobic I am yur greatest fan I hAVE COPIED ALL YOUR VRY INFORMATIVE replys and kept them all unti li run out of wall space I perticularly like the one about hearing beeps instead of clicks sometime I hear you give me special instructions in my mind but I really dont think Mr, Geoff Holwald is that bad of a feller i hope you can work out your problems but any way I have tried to play, think, and even look like you but it has been hard for me i am 6foot two 235 pound i wear baggy dungarees pulled up to my chest jest like yiou shaved my head but i really dont have the look yet but I am trying but my biggest problem is i could used to pick fair enough until i started taking your metronome advoic now I sound like Mr. Acker Bilk performing the dueling banjos I think me and you need to talk . me and the boys will be up uour way a bear hunting next week I got some right fair Plott hounds they aint too ill around strangers jest dont act like you skerred or something.looking forward to meeting you your greatest fan tarheel from Elbow, Virginia, and places South

Nov 15, 2010 - 3:38:39 PM

172 posts since 4/9/2010

I wish I would have started with a metronome from day one because correcting my bad habits is much harder than learning correctly the first time.

Nov 18, 2010 - 6:30:08 PM

13420 posts since 3/6/2006

quote:
Originally posted by tarheel

but I really dont think Mr, Geoff Holwald is that bad of a feller i hope you can work out your problems but any way I have looking forward to meeting you your greatest fan tarheel from Elbow, Virginia, and places South




Hey Thanks for the kind words-i appreciate it. I dont know what the 'problems' are that you mention between me and Geoff. We dont have any that I know of,haha. Next time you are in MT Airy, stop by and say 'hey'.

Nov 22, 2010 - 4:28:01 PM

tarheel

USA

1226 posts since 1/13/2004

Hey just pulling your leg a little about those in depth posting you fellers come up with some times, now that is some complicated theorizing haha, i believe tha timing is everything, almost, the music has got to breathe a little too, you know.

Dec 15, 2010 - 7:06:27 AM

Tom Hanway

Ireland

6442 posts since 8/31/2004

quote:
Originally posted by tarheel

Hey just pulling your leg a little about those in depth posting you fellers come up with some times, now that is some complicated theorizing haha, i believe tha timing is everything, almost, the music has got to breathe a little too, you know.

Good point!

Practicing with a metronome, and this whole thread, is a great idea.

If you listen to great recordings that weren't recorded with a click track, and put a metronome to them -- and it's been said before -- you'll notice that sometimes even the cream of the crop speed up over the course of a tune. Tunes have won Grammy Awards that sped up and slowed down. Music definitely breathes and bands that can drive hard and swing together feel good and hold the listener. The fact that it's not always metronomically *perfect* -- if there is such a thing -- takes nothing away from good grooves that reach listeners and keep them happy.

I won't point fingers, but some very renowned bluegrass guitarists are known to speed up in the recording studio; in fact, speeding up and building energy over the course of a tune ain't such a bad thing when it's not really noticeable.

Okay, I had to underscore the point above, and that is not meant to take away from the worthy goal of this thread, about having good, smooth timing from start to finish. Listen to some of Earl Scruggs's earlier masterpieces and his timing is just rock solid! You can't beat it!

Dec 18, 2010 - 9:48:15 AM

13420 posts since 3/6/2006

Good post Tom. To reiterate the overall goal of this thread; its to help folks understand how to use the thread to learn about note durations and to check ones overall grasp of playing them, in measures. The other use of the metronome is to help you identify timing glitches in your playing and to establish that your overall sense of timing is solid. You must have a rhythmic 'center' in your brain, before you can learn to syncopate, puch/pull and obtain 'drive'. The goal isnt to play like a machine/metronome' and the only way that could ever happen is if you only play with it, and never play with others or play along with recordings.
I could make a list of famous players who have and do use metronomes. None of them have /mechanical' timing. Using a metronome is just like using tab, a capo or a tuner. They are all tools that you learn how to use properly. But none of them replace your ear.

Dec 27, 2010 - 2:24:55 AM

245 posts since 10/9/2010

quote:
Originally posted by tom elder

I have to agree .Metronomes are difficult to hear and when you are off you may not know if you are in front of or behind the beat .I switched to pawn shop drum machines some time back.Something coming out of a decent sized speaker and defining a complete measure is much better for me.Usually i use a tom to simulate the bass and the snare for the mandolin chop .Maybe throw in ameasure with some conga.It's not something to take to the masses; so learn to stomp your feet in the process.


Ihave an old fashioned wind up metronome, it defines a complete measue with a bell ring each time. I had a drum machine with pro tools at one time but the beats were so complex they were difficult to follow I'd like to know of a drum machine which defines complete measures but could just play very basic beats

Edited by - choolie on 12/27/2010 02:27:56

Jan 2, 2011 - 11:48:50 AM

tkv

USA

22 posts since 9/6/2010

I am new to all this, so where do I go to for Part I?

thomas

Feb 15, 2011 - 2:10:41 AM

78 posts since 7/8/2008

Great post

Feb 26, 2011 - 9:19:28 AM

Jim T

USA

432 posts since 5/19/2005

quote:
Originally posted by Ragaisis

That all depends on the time signature of the piece (4/4, 6/8, etc) and the time value of the note that you're playing (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc).

For example, if you're playing a standard bluegrass 8 note roll (which can be represented as 4/4 time) those are considered to be 8th notes (you're playing 8 of them each measure). If the metronome is set to 100, you're playing 2 notes per click, and you're playing a standard bluegrass roll (8 notes per measure), you're playing 100 beats per minute.

Pick it solid,

Chris



I was reading through this thread and saw this old post. I've read it a couple of times now and it seems to me that playing an 8 note roll with 2 notes per click with the metronome set to 100 is actually playing at a true 50 beats per minute. Could someone clarify this?

Thanks, Jim

Edited by - Jim T on 02/26/2011 09:21:11

Feb 28, 2011 - 9:05:27 AM

13420 posts since 3/6/2006

quote:
Originally posted by Jim T

quote:
Originally posted by Ragaisis

That all depends on the time signature of the piece (4/4, 6/8, etc) and the time value of the note that you're playing (quarter notes, eighth notes, etc).

For example, if you're playing a standard bluegrass 8 note roll (which can be represented as 4/4 time) those are considered to be 8th notes (you're playing 8 of them each measure). If the metronome is set to 100, you're playing 2 notes per click, and you're playing a standard bluegrass roll (8 notes per measure), you're playing 100 beats per minute.

Pick it solid,

Chris





I was reading through this thread and saw this old post. I've read it a couple of times now and it seems to me that playing an 8 note roll with 2 notes per click with the metronome set to 100 is actually playing at a true 50 beats per minute. Could someone clarify this?

Thanks, Jim





Jim

Think of common time BPM settings as 1/2 of cut time BPM settings on a metronome. Since you are playing the pulses as "1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2" and playing a note on every one of them, you are effectively doubling the tempo. So playing in cut time at 100 BPM is would be equivalent to 50 BPM in common time.
Try playing a 5-3-1 roll at 50 BPM, making sure you are playing 4 notes per click (2 on the down and 2 on the up, of every beat). Then switch to 100 BPM, where you'll play two notes per click (1 on the down and 1 on the up, of ever beat). You'll see that both rolls are the same, except that cut time feels twice as fast as common time. Its all about how the rolls are played over the different pulses/beats.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 02/28/2011 09:11:48

Feb 28, 2011 - 11:15:15 AM

JoeDownes

Netherlands

3188 posts since 2/7/2008

It's my understanding that cut time or 2/2 at 100bpm would be 4 times as fast as common time at 50bpm, if you count every metronome click as a beat.

Let's look at 2/2 and 4/4 at the same bpm. There are eight 1/8 notes in a measure of cut time, just like in common time. But a measure of cut time at the same bpm lasts only half as long as a measure of common time. In other words, it's played twice as fast.


-   -   -   -   (metronome clicks)

1___2___3___4___   (beats in common time)
X_x_x_x_X_x_x_x_   (1/8 notes in common time)

1___2___1___2___   (beats in cut time)
XxxxXxxxXxxxXxxx   (1/8 notes in cut time)


Metronome settings are not strictly bound to a particular time signature. The mandolin transcriptions of Bill Monroe that I looked at (16 gems) are written in 4/4 time, but the speed is written as 1/2 note = 120 bpm.

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