"...Mr. Scruggs, tear down your wall..."
Of course Earl Scruggs did not construct an Iron Curtain between Old Time(OT) and Bluegrass(BG) banjo players; we did it ourselves. However, when I began playing banjo back in the late '70s there was certainly, to say the least, not much in the way of glad tidings between the BG and OT music communities. I cannot speak with any authority on behalf of the BG folks, but I have been able to identify some important changes in the banjo world from the OT perspective. That's what this installment will be about.
I started thinking about this matter about six or seven years ago after going to a winter jam that was primarily, but not totally, BG oriented. The moment of epiphany was when my wife elbowed me and said, "you're being videoed. Again." I waived her off saying THEY were just lusting after my old Gibson. Y'know that whole pre-war Gibson fetish thing. Can't we make THEM register on some Vintage Banjo Stalker List, or at least get a restraining order so that our pre-war Gibsons are safe. All we want is to peaceably act out our Wade Ward and Uncle Dave fantasies.
Seriously, there is a real warming of relations between the BG and OT music worlds, and more pickers than ever have a foot on either side of the fence. There also is a lot more tolerance and mutual respect between the camps as well.
A few observations here: It is not uncommon to hear some OT banjo on the recordings of BG artists, and BG radio stations are including some OT music on their play lists. There are numerous banjo players who pick in BG and OT string bands and it's hard to tell which style they are dominant in. While few BG pickers use open back banjos, there continues to be a growing contingent of OT pickers who play resonator banjos, either on occasion or always. Many OT pickers are wearing picks as well, both for up and down picking styles.
Speaking of styles, it also must be noted that OT finger styles, both 2 and 3 finger, are being employed almost as often as clawhammer(CH), especially for solo playing. When I began playing, CH was OT and OT was CH. Period. Only a few eccentric people were talking about learning to play in the manner of Boggs, Poole, Holcomb and the rest. Lots of people fashionably dropped those names, but few took up their banners.
About twelve years ago I saw a concert in Fayetteville, AR that turned my world inside out. It was Tom, Brad and Alice. I walked out of that concert so embarrassed of my one-dimensional playing compared to what Tom Sauber was doing with that (gasp!) resonator banjo of his. Not only did he twist those tuning pegs into every possible configuration, he also surely played every one of those styles that were in my Art Rosenbaum book; the ones nobody really played, you know.
The OT banjo world also had been guilty of some degree of self-segregation. A lot of this was rooted in an inferiority complex due to the fact that BG banjo IS harder and more complicated to learn and play than OT. Big deal...but it was. It caused a lot of OT pickers to shun anything our simple minds thought even mildly reeked of BG. This self-segregation is the self defeating behavior of so many minority groups. In the OT banjo world it meant hating resonator banjos, finger styles, picks, breaks, playing up the neck and creating our own banjo mythology concerning what a "clawhammer banjo" is and making sure to hit the damn thing as far from the bridge as possible.
Given what jerks we were, I still wonder what made so many BGers interested in OT banjo! Was it the meteoric rise of Steve Martin as the Banjo Renaissance Man of the 21st century? Was it Mark Johnson taking CH banjo into the belly of the beast? Was Ricky Skaggs an OT Trojan Horse? Or John McEuen headlining the Charlie Poole Festival?
What has made so many BG players show up on the OT threads here at BHO the past few years? Why does the BG radio show I listen to out of St. Louis play Molsky, Carolina Chocolate Drops, the NLCR and LeRoy Troy? Why have mainstream Country singers like Loretta Lynn and Vince Gill made recordings with clawhammer banjo featured?
And what is your story insofar as embracing a wide spectrum of playing styles from Scruggs to Gellert, from Macon to Martin? Things have changed within the banjo world that we reside. It's interesting, it's exciting, and it's challenging. Please post your thoughts below. thanks for reading, and hopefully, participating.
Don.
22 comments on “Banjo Detente”
Ks_5-picker Says:
Wednesday, April 29, 2015 @8:22:32 PM
Interesting reading,Don.I really hope you paste this into a discussion thread because MANY more people will read it there than they do on the blog page. I've tried to pick quietly along with OT banjo players,and they've turned their nose up at me,as you say.I really do think there's more of an "acceptance" mentality becoming more pervasive in out culture,and it's sometimes a good thing.
chip arnold Says:
Thursday, April 30, 2015 @10:04:16 AM
Really good post, Don. I agree with the above ... post this as a thread. I'd love to see a real discussion on the subject.
a g cole Says:
Thursday, April 30, 2015 @10:33:00 AM
Don,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts on this subject. Though I am mostly a closet BG picker, I have long felt that more interaction between BG and OT will only enrich the music. Personally, one of my most rewarding jamming experiences happened a couple of years ago, when I sat with OT picker Dr. John Kelly for a few numbers outside Everett's Music Barn in Suwanee, Ga. Although John is far more advanced in OT than I in BG, we seemed to click perfectly (at least, in my mind). Also, I have considered it an extra bonus to hear Ralph Stanley demonstrate OT picking, as taught to him by his mother. Jens Kruger often does some OT picking at his shows. There are others, but not nearly enough for my taste. For years, I have likened listening to OT picking to "drinking a dipperful of cold spring water right out of a mountainside." I intend to encourage blending BG and OT at every opportunity.
jack_beuthin Says:
Thursday, April 30, 2015 @12:10:01 PM
Last month I was across the pond and visited with BHO friend, Mike Bostock. We went to a local session one night outside of Bristol. There were both pickers and frailers in the group, and everyone who wanted, played breaks. We played a lot of tunes and songs that were common to both BG and OT. Maybe the Brits never got the memo about the "Great Divide." It was good fun.
hamishpink Says:
Wednesday, May 27, 2015 @3:43:04 AM
As a musician from across the pond, I agree with Jack. We see things as less tribal or sectarian here - as musicians we don't compartmentalise, although banjo is going that way due to the US influence. The banjo has been played in an extensive range of diverse styles for the last 150 years - equally so guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, flute etc. from classical to folk, from pop to rock music.
The banjo is an instrument, and we use it we play music - can't get much simpler than that.
Tom Meisenheimer Says:
Sunday, May 31, 2015 @6:50:09 PM
Hey Don! I have had many a discussion with you (especially texting) and agree with your outline of the historical aspect of the "divide" but I don't really like most bluegrass recordings I hear. My liking OT is based on it having a much greater diversity (overworked word but valid) found in non-BG. I can't say that all the non-BG I hear is OT. Probably most is but there is a large sample that is "of other origins". There is a lot of non-BG music that is found at other locations than the BHO. The music of the Sene-Gambia region of West Africa and of course Minstrel banjo for example. I have personally worked out such diverse numbers as "Norwegian Wood" and "Meadowlands", "Darkness", even Christmas Carols. That experience of mine is why I agree completely with hamishpink's comment that the banjo is a musical instrument and musical instruments can be used to play music. While I think it is important to maintain the traditions associated with banjo playing, I also think that it is important to see that the banjo isn't just meant for the playing of country music derived from the Scott-Irish enclaves of Appalachia and the Ozarks. The other day I listened to Mary Chapin Carpenter's song "Why Walk when you can Fly?" and was surprised to find that there wasn't a banjo being played but a piano. I sat down and played the song on the banjo and it was immensely satisfying to hear it done so. I think it has been recored with banjo at some time or another but I was listening to an older recording. My reason for not caring for BG banjo is because I simply can't manage BG picking and I'd rather not play most of the music I know at that pace. Someone once called BG "folk music in overdrive". I think that the precision and control required to play BG can be intimidating and I also think that the strong force of 'virtuosity for it's own sake' that is found in some OT circles is there because of that intimidation, fostered by the precise techniques of BG picking. It is like some OT folk are embarrassed that OT music on the banjo can be achieved by such little effort, such minimalist employment of simple music form and done so with what ever technique the player decides they like. Of course that is something to be expected in what really is a folk expression (even if applied to composed pieces). Kind of like the architectural simplicity of Shaker dwellings and furniture. I will listen and enjoy some BG recordings but tend to like the Trishka/Flek/Martin offerings more than, say Union Station. I do love old Monroe and Stanley recordings too. As for blending the two I would guess that as OT pickers increase their appreciation for BG and BG pickers discover the enormous well of yet un-played OT music the blending will occur without our permission and I think that it has a very good chance of bringing back a vibrancy that hasn't been experienced since the 1940s. Yes do create a thread with this blog.
RWJonesy Says:
Sunday, June 28, 2015 @4:21:04 AM
Late on the read Don. Well thought out and sometimes quite witty post. I like the way you write. I like the idea mentioned above about posting this in a thread. Did you already do that and I missed that too? Sorry brother, I work a schedule that just doesn't jive with most of the world.
Don Huber Says:
Friday, July 24, 2015 @3:26:15 PM
I cannot thank each and every one of you enough for posting your thoughts and observations on this blog thread. So much wonderful information and shared experience. As per posting this as a thread, I am going to repectfully decline. I do a fair amount of posting on the two OT threads here @ BHO already, so this allows me a sort of "parallel universe" to allow good people to to discuss "issues" without having a moderator lurking or having the thread hijacked by people who just want to put in alink to their CD recordings they cannot get rid of. I also enjoy the mystery of having pickers stumble upon these topics as you might a decomposing animal carcass while hiking in the woods. And it's a fun way for meet to "meet" new players...of various styles...and redezvousing with old pals like Tom and Chip away from the maddening crowd.
Paul R Says:
Monday, October 5, 2015 @8:27:58 PM
A superb post, Don. I think it should be spread far and wide, although I see your point above. As you know, I play CH in a BG jam (and guitar with fingerpicks - talk about a contrarian!), and have had nothing but support from the players. The fact that the divide is breaking down was evidenced by a concert here, last year, by the Slocan Ramblers, whose banjoist, Frank Evans, is a hot BG and CH picker. (Frank is also touring with Ken Whiteley's Beulah Band.) Close to home, the recent Lyndhurst Turkey Fair featured a couple of bands that stretched the repertoire - our jam's banjo player, Mary's band strays from the "usual", and another band did a blues number - in an all BG event. That sort of thing is refreshing. Maybe (just maybe) things are different when you get away from the hotbeds and birthplaces of the genres. I think that in places like here, where we get stuff second- or third-hand, being "open-minded" is an accident of circumstance. Of course, if you went through The Great Folk Scare, the Beatles, Dylan, the Dead, and so on, before getting those great old Rounder records, it's bound to influence your musical thinking. In the end, it's all music.
Lew H Says:
Tuesday, October 6, 2015 @10:50:21 AM
Don, Sorry I missed this blog! I fully concur with your viewpoint, and I'm happy that this is happening. For years, I have jammed weekly with BGers, mostly on dobro, but sometimes the banjo picker grabs a guitar and hands me his Mastertone for me to claw on for a batch of songs. The jam is mostly traditional bluegrass, but some OT fiddle tunes, Carter Family, etc. are appreciated.
I see no reason for OT picking to be limited to traditional OT music. In my early years, I mostly used banjo to back up my singing of folk revival and traditional folk songs. But I loved to play with other people, so this weekly jam became a major musical influence, and I learned to claw or dobro on a lot of bluegrass tunes.. I was clawing banjo at a music park a few years ago with a hammered dulcimer player who did all sorts of tunes, including some BG. He kept looking at my right hand, and finally asked me what style of playing I was doing. "Frailing," I said. He said he thought so, but kept "hearing a lot of bluegrass noises coming out of it."
As a child, I heard country, big band, and early rock on the radio, so I had lots of other influences. These days, I find myself returning to bits and pieces of that radio fare to add to my banjo repertoire. I have ceased to respect the boundaries of genres, and even take pride in playing songs "you are not supposed to" clawhammer. So I do have a lot of admiration for the folks who play both OT and BG, for those who play jazz or classical music on the banjo, etc. If we can't find some fun challenges, what's the point of playing banjo anyway?
rbergesch Says:
Sunday, July 31, 2016 @8:40:59 PM
I got a Kay 5 string and Pete Seeger's Red Book my freshman year of HS in 1962. Listened to the Folk Scare people, but knew there was more. Swapped it into a long neck Vega a year or so later. Started hearing some BG, owned New Dimensions in BG and Flatt & Scruggs, but couldn't figure it out. I did, however, get the 'bum-diddy' down fairly well.
In college it was sex, drugs, and rock n' roll. The long neck stayed under the bed for 4 years, and the next 35 after that.
My son and I went on a car trip in 2009; he put on 'dueling banjos', and upon my return I dug out the old long neck and started learning rolls. I love BG and mountain music; I never stopped listening, only didn't play for 40 years. I now have several BG banjos, each with its own story and sound. I'll never be more than a middle level BG player, but I don't care, learning to play means learning the music, which is more important.
But I've just never forgotten the simple rippling sound of what we now classify as 'OT' banjo. At a regional festival this past week I saw an open back that I fell in love with. A Vega Tubaphone pot from the '30's with a new neck made with the inlays from the original neck. The price was right ('festival pricing' helped,) and as we were finishing the details with the vendor, Mark Schatz, who was there with Claire Lynch, picked up the same instrument and started playing, and making some great sounds. I got a nice little video of him playing 'my' banjo.
I am very excited to be getting this banjo. The vendor, Glen Nelson of Mockingbird Music in mid- Massachusetts, is making some minor modifications, spikes etc.; I'll get it in a week or so.
A lot of the BG greats were very familiar with the OT styles; that's what they heard before the started Rollin'. I believe it influenced their playing. Ralph Stanley is just the easiest example to cite, but there are others. I'm looking forward to playing this wonderful instrument with some great music.
Tom Berghan Says:
Monday, August 15, 2016 @12:02:06 PM
Perfect Don, you nailed it. Now if we can just somehow make the same bridge between the early stroke style (minstrel) players we'd about have it. I am in all three camps and I see the same behavior in the early banjo camp - self inflicted segregation and "attitude." Of course there are other styles as well - classic, ragtime, jazz, Irish - but Stroke, OT, and BG are very closely related. Good blog. I usually don't read many but I liked yours! Best Wishes, Tom
Don Huber Says:
Wednesday, August 17, 2016 @1:41:55 AM
Thanks, Tom. I appreciate your kind words as well as your comments on the Old Time threads at Banjo Hangout.
tucsonsean Says:
Monday, August 29, 2016 @9:37:35 AM
Don--Your blog reminds me of a rainy afternoon years ago when I worked at the Mars Hill Old Time Music Week, when Hilary Dirlam and I passed the time trying to work out a clawhammer version of the Beatles' "Norwegian Wood." We would have never played it for the campers, who were very serious about becoming 'old time musicians.' But when I got home to South Carolina, I played it for Snuffy Jenkins, and he and his BG jam took off with it and had a great time. I liked the general BG attitude's openess (including to me and my open back clawing at that time, which I think they saw as 'charming'). As a result of my interactions with them, my playing is defined by my method, not my repertoire. (Note: I'll admit that I don't have the dexterity to play BG, but I can't for the life of me figure out why I can't get the hang to two-fingered picking!)
Don Huber Says:
Tuesday, August 30, 2016 @4:34:40 PM
Thanks for your comments, Sean. You'll get the hang of it. If thumb lead doesn't work, try index lead. It's more like CH!
JanetB Says:
Sunday, September 11, 2016 @7:40:39 AM
What deep thinking and how thought-provoking, Don. My style is eclectic -- from clawhammer to 3-finger, and at the moment I'm trying 2-finger just to honor the current TOTW, Green Corn. BTW, and the reason I've sought you out, where can I hear James Bryan and Carl Jones play Green Corn? I'm away from my home and library and just can't wait to find out. Thanks!
guitarsophist Says:
Saturday, February 11, 2017 @7:50:28 PM
I am a newcomer to banjo after about 40 years of playing blues and rock on guitar. About six months ago I was struck by something from out of the blue and bought a Deering Americana and became somewhat obsessed. I was unaware of the BG/OT divide, but I was immediately drawn to clawhammer because it is so different from what guitar players do and it is really musical. I have learned a great deal from the Banjo Hangout discussion boards, and I see that in the BG section, players are often posting about speed and documenting improvements, like it is bicycle racing or guitar shredding. I am unqualified to have an opinion really. I can play only two song clawhammer style--Old Molly Hare and Old Joe Clark. That's what a newcomer I am. I am more into being moved by music than being impressed by speed and dexterity, but when I watch Steve Martin, whom I saw do his banjo magic act at the Ice House in Pasadena back in 1968 or so, I see both musicality and dexterity. He is really a good musician, and funny too. I guess what I am saying is that from this outsider perspective, it would be really cool if these camps came together in the way that Steve Martin and Mark Johnson envision.
Don Huber Says:
Sunday, February 12, 2017 @3:28:36 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly; and it is happening!
mswzebo Says:
Wednesday, April 5, 2017 @8:37:21 PM
I played BG rolls for years and it was kind of fun but not really music - CH was what drew me to banjo and I have been having fun with it and actually making music in my own amateurish way since I realized what was going on. Then I learned 'Coast of California' by Kingston Trio and realized that they can both (BG rolls and CH) work together in the same song. I also realized then how much I had underestimated what was really going on in Kingston Trio songs.
Don Huber Says:
Thursday, April 6, 2017 @12:33:06 AM
Interesting observation with first-hand experience. Thanks for commenting!
WayneConrad Says:
Thursday, July 20, 2017 @1:47:32 PM
I enjoyed your observations--and those of the other commentors, especially Tom Meisenheimer --about the divide between BG and OT. What's new to me, though, is the idea that some of the separation is self-imposed from feelings of inferiority. I believe that's true. You are correct that BG is harder to master, and I've always felt a bit of shame at having given up trying to learn BG. I didn't switch to OT solely because BG is harder--I truly love OT banjo--but the difficulty was a big factor. I feel irritated when a BG player sneers at all other forms of banjo, but at the same time I feel that an accomplished BG player has a bit of a right to feel superior for having mastered a difficult art. Thank you for the thought-provoking blog.
Don Huber Says:
Friday, July 21, 2017 @12:26:22 AM
Thank you for your comment, Wayne. Yeah, BG is harder, but OT banjo just has so many possibilities and expressions, doesn't it. In OT banjo picking, there are so many paths to the summit! And thanks for the friend request!
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