oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/13/2007:  19:43:36

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I just posted this in another thread but think perhaps the best thing to do is start a new one as I'm looking for input about where the tunings commonly known as "Sawmill" was a traditional tuning. Specifically I'm talking about aEADE and/or gDGCD - aka "Mountain Minor" or "Cookoo Bird" tuning and the use of similar tunings on other instruments -- like guitar (Poor Boy Tuning) and dulcimer.

Below is the complete posting

Now we might be on to a mystery. Here is a question that is just coming off the top of my head - no research - heck, Research is not my middle name - Research is the name I call my wife when I need to know something. But she does not know anything about banjos so...

Where was modal tuning common?

I can supply the easiest answer. Deep Gap, NC. But did Doc Watson get it from Tom Ashley who was a long time medicine show man and had traveled extensively. Ashley also recorded some songs in the 20s playing modal banjo as his own backup. "Little Sadie, and "Cookoo" are the best known. So I don't know if aEADE was common in the Deep Gap area or if it was imported either by Ashley or someone else.

I'm also pretty sure (as sure as I can be without actually checking anything) that Buell Kazee used modal tuning - at least I've done similar arrangements (The Butcher's Boy for example) using modal tuning. Jean Ritchie played dulcimer not banjo but I believe I remember her mentioning "mountain minor" specifically, and many of her songs would fit right well with that banjo tuning. In fact she also recorded The Butcher's Boy (GREAT version of that song with the "Oh Lord Oh Lordy Me" chorus that sends chills up your spine) at least twice - once with just her own dulcimer and once with Doc Watson providing a beautiful clawhammer background that was probably inspired by Kazee.

So where else? I know it was BIG in Boston and NYC - but I'm really only interested in areas where it was part of a tradition as opposed to the portmanteau styles of us revivalists. If anyone knows of Guitar versions of the tuning that might predate the revival that would be worthwhile information too


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/13/2007:  21:39:06

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I know that Conway's research centered on some of the black NC Piedmont players, and part of her theory for blacks being the source for the white banjo tradition of which Tommy Jarrel was a part was the commonality of certain variant tunings, the "sawmill" being among them, so perhaps the NC Piedmont was also an area where "sawmill" was traditional.

Dwight Diller is known for having preserved the repertoire of the Hammons family and others (from Pocohontas Co. ? WVA). Since he makes use of the gDGCD tuning, perhaps this also points to that area of WVA.



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/13/2007:  22:25:01

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I am going to have to look up "portmanteau" in the dictionary. I assume it means eclectic, or something like that. Good word.

I can't speak to sawmill tuning in particular, but the use of variant tunings on the fiddle was a common practice throughout Europe all the way back to the medievil period. They used tuning variants for the same reasons old time banjo pickers did. So while I wouldn't discount Conway's theory, I suspect that there was more cross fertilization going on in the making of mountain music than most people assume, and to identify one source, or one direction of influence, is really overly simplifying things. Did black musicians influence white musicians, or did white musicians influence black musicians, did fiddle, dulcimer or zither influence banjo players, did minstrelsy add anything- the answer is likely yes, all of the above. One doesn't have to spend everyday with another musician to be deeply affected. How many times have you listened to another picker, and had a complete epiphany in the flash of a moment. Just a few musical phrases made you think in a completely new way about your instrument. They were no different.



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/13/2007 22:29:48

flatfoot - Posted - 04/14/2007:  01:24:40

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.

I have a CD that sheds a little light on this. Its _African American Folk Music_ Rounder 18964 1515 2. Someof the same musicians Alan Lomax wrote about in _Where the Blues Began._.

One song features Lucius Smith on banjo and you can hear him him tuning to a chord with a third that is neither major nor minor. The album notes call it a "neutral' third. It is suited to the music because of its african-based mode, which does not quite fit woth our notion of major or minor. You can hear a sort of "bent" third reminiscent of the blue notes in blues and jazz.

Sawmill tuning does something similar. It avoids the third so that it is easy to leave the pitch of that note up to the voice, which can land somewhere between major and minor. So I think I see a connection to the African tradition in sawmill tuning. I also think there is a connection to shape-note songs, the harmonies of which tend to stay away from thiirds.

Is there, then, a connection between African modes and shape-note? I am beginning to think so, although most likely the connection can never be proven.

.

.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm learning how to tune the thing
I'm learning how to frail.
And how to sound like Earl Scruggs
The bluegrass Holy Grail.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/14/2007:  01:55:55

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Flatfoot wrote: "Sawmill tuning does something similar. It avoids the third so that it is easy to leave the pitch of that note up to the voice, which can land somewhere between major and minor. So I think I see a connection to the African tradition in sawmill tuning. I also think there is a connection to shape-note songs, the harmonies of which tend to stay away from thiirds."

That is the heart of the matter, right there. Sawmill tuning is as important for what is left out, as what is put in. But I would argue that the tendency to sing that "neutral" third, or maybe described as the tendency to wander around in the space between the major or minor third, is not unique to the African vocal tradition, it can be heard in traditional modal ballad singing as well, and has its roots in medievil and even earlier vocal practice. I wouldn't be surprised if in that shared affinity for the ambiguous third, African and Scotch-Irish appalachians found common ground that helped encourage greater musical cross-cultural sharing.

flatfoot wrote: "Is there, then, a connection between African modes and shape-note? I am beginning to think so, although most likely the connection can never be proven."

I think the avoidance of the third in the shape note tradition is related, but still a different musical phenomenon than the tendency to be ambiguous about the third note of the scale, found in both ballad and blues traditions. Argue with me if you disagree, but I am pretty confident in saying that the avoidance of the third in shape note singing is the harmonic tendency to eschew the modern triad. Shape note harmony relies on fifths and fourths for harmonic resonance, rather than thirds, the latter being a relatively new, three or four hundred year old innovation pretty much unknown in older medievil tradition. African vocal music, performed today by groups like Ladysmith Black Mombasa, to my ear also sound like they are using similar harmonies, avoiding the third, and relying on fourths, fifths, and other intervals. Is there a shared connection among these certainly equally ancient traditions? I would bet that there is, but it probably would not be found on this side of the Atlantic.

I hope we have not wandered too far from Woodchuck's original point.





"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/14/2007 02:37:59

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/14/2007:  04:37:38

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I'm not sure I understand much that is being said - but I'm fascinated so keep going!

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/14/2007:  04:43:55

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Oh -- I forgot to mention that I know some shape note people - or I should say folkmusicologists who have studies shape notes. They say that there is a religious reason for all the fourthing and fifthing around - perfect intervals -- 4th 5th 8va -- bring one closer to the perfect being.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/14/2007:  09:20:06

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oldwoodchuckb wrote: "They say that there is a religious reason for all the fourthing and fifthing around - perfect intervals -- 4th 5th 8va -- bring one closer to the perfect being. "

That is a very old justification, also going back to the medievil church, but I think it has to be understood in part in the context that a lot of social and artistic practice was given a sanctified rationale, giving even stronger weight to the status quo. The medievil church was constantly reining in what was seen as excessive deviation in liturgical musical practice, enforcing traditional norms by saying they were from God, and could not be altered. In a similar vein, Galileo was deemed a heretic for saying that the earth was not at the center of the solar system, a condemnation not officially retracted by the Church until about a decade ago, believe it or not. Even the ' "sacred rectangle" of the Greek architects was considered, well, sacred, and an architect who did not employ the holy ratio in his design risked his reputation. I could say that this is the world some would have us return to, but I think that would be stepping over the line, and I will get my BHOV avatar back, so I won't. Was this reliance on a divine authority sincere or done in cynicism? Read Galileo's Daughter, by Dava Sobel, for a deep look at what their world was all about.

- Don Borchelt

P.S. Havng said that, I do personally believe that on some level it is actually true that the fourth, fifth and octave are perfect intervals and bring us closer to the perfect being, and I have tried to implement that in my own picking. That's why I tune my open D banjo fifth string to A instead of F#, as one example. Also, what are the notes you have in sawmill tuning? The 4th, 5th, and 8va. Hey, I got back to the thread topic. Wow!



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/14/2007 09:36:57

mwc9725e - Posted - 04/14/2007:  10:58:21

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb


I just posted this in another thread but think perhaps the best thing to do is start a new one as I'm looking for input about where the tunings commonly known as "Sawmill" was a traditional tuning. Specifically I'm talking about aEADE and/or gDGCD - aka "Mountain Minor" or "Cookoo Bird" tuning and the use of similar tunings on other instruments -- like guitar (Poor Boy Tuning) and dulcimer.

Below is the complete posting

Now we might be on to a mystery. Here is a question that is just coming off the top of my head - no research - heck, Research is not my middle name - Research is the name I call my wife when I need to know something. But she does not know anything about banjos so...

Where was modal tuning common?

I can supply the easiest answer. Deep Gap, NC. But did Doc Watson get it from Tom Ashley who was a long time medicine show man and had traveled extensively. Ashley also recorded some songs in the 20s playing modal banjo as his own backup. "Little Sadie, and "Cookoo" are the best known. So I don't know if aEADE was common in the Deep Gap area or if it was imported either by Ashley or someone else.

I'm also pretty sure (as sure as I can be without actually checking anything) that Buell Kazee used modal tuning - at least I've done similar arrangements (The Butcher's Boy for example) using modal tuning. Jean Ritchie played dulcimer not banjo but I believe I remember her mentioning "mountain minor" specifically, and many of her songs would fit right well with that banjo tuning. In fact she also recorded The Butcher's Boy (GREAT version of that song with the "Oh Lord Oh Lordy Me" chorus that sends chills up your spine) at least twice - once with just her own dulcimer and once with Doc Watson providing a beautiful clawhammer background that was probably inspired by Kazee.

So where else? I know it was BIG in Boston and NYC - but I'm really only interested in areas where it was part of a tradition as opposed to the portmanteau styles of us revivalists. If anyone knows of Guitar versions of the tuning that might predate the revival that would be worthwhile information too


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

---

I think modal scales were used a lot in Britain, at least as far back as the 1500's. Since much of our "mountain" music derives from old Scottish & Irish music, I suspect the roots go much further back than even this country does.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/14/2007:  15:27:51

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mwc wrote: I think modal scales were used a lot in Britain, at least as far back as the 1500's. "

Modal scales go back a lot farther than that. When the music scholars of the medievil church began transcribing the modal plainsong chants, they even then saw themselves as preserving a very ancient music. When they labeled the various modal scale patterns, they borrowed terms used by Plato and Aristotle. A famous quote from Aristotle, which I just ripped off from Wikipedia, being very lazy:

The musical modes differ essentially from one another, and those who hear them are differently affected by each. Some of them make men sad and grave, like the so called Mixolydian; others enfeeble the mind, like the relaxed modes; another, again, produces a moderate or settled temper, which appears to be the peculiar effect of the Dorian; and the Phrygian inspires enthusiasm.

The two medievil church modes found most often in both appalachian and Irish music are Dorian and Mixolydian, not counting Ionian, which is basically our major scale, and Aeolian, which is basically our minor scale. Sawmill is generaly used for Dorian tunes, although, as pointed out earlier, the third is often somewhere between a major and minor interval, so the true modal scale is actually floating around in a musical river flowing somewhere between the shores of Dorian and Mixolydian.

- Don Borchelt



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/14/2007 15:32:30

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/14/2007:  16:00:17

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The Greeks did indeed at very least do all the classification work on modal scales (hence the Greek names) although they probably go back a lot further than that. One of those archeological finds many feel would be worth more than another thousand mummies would be a working Egyptian or Minoan flute.

On the "Perfect" intervals. One thing I knew about them long before being told the religious significance of their use was that after you make an interval "perfect" you then flatten it to a specific number of "beats per second" to get a modern tempered scale (My Grandfather was a piano tuner). Consequently the church piano probably was not capable of playing a perfect 5th. Human voices can sing the perfect intervals but many of them are so accostomed to the keyboard temperment that they don't.



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/14/2007:  17:40:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

On the "Perfect" intervals. One thing I knew about them long before being told the religious significance of their use was that after you make an interval "perfect" you then flatten it to a specific number of "beats per second" to get a modern tempered scale (My Grandfather was a piano tuner). Consequently the church piano probably was not capable of playing a perfect 5th. Human voices can sing the perfect intervals but many of them are so accostomed to the keyboard temperment that they don't.

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Another reason wht fretlessness is an advantage.




R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/14/2007:  19:47:24

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Yeah
Unfortunately I never really took much advantage of a fretless when I had one and now I don't trust my ear any more (tinnitus throws everythign off).
MY wife plays a tune that SCREAMS for a lack of frets. It has what I call a gypsy 3rd in the melody. Like a "blue" note, it is somewhere between a minor and a major 3rd - both of which show up in other parts of the tune - and can only be played on the banjo with a "bend". I find it almost impossible to get the right amount of bend with my current hands. I can hear where I need to be, but can't get the micro adjustment necessary, and have finally decided to go down against the fiddle rather than make a sour noise. I need a banjo with a couple frets missing on the 3rd string.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/14/2007:  20:39:14

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I have been playing with a semi-fretless banjo for a number of years now, just to be able to get those in between notes. There are some important trade-offs, but it is really nice to be free of the slavery of frets.



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

mwc9725e - Posted - 04/15/2007:  12:35:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by Don Borchelt

I have been playing with a semi-fretless banjo for a number of years now, just to be able to get those in between notes. There are some important trade-offs, but it is really nice to be free of the slavery of frets.



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Don: Not to get off topic, but I just bought a fretless mountain banjo. Haven't received it yet, but I'm already having mis-givings. I've never played one of the things, and am wondering if maybe I let myself in for something I can't handle. I love the sound, and that's why I wanted one. In your opinion was it hard to make the switch? What about tuning, do I need an electronic tuner?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/15/2007:  19:54:51

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RD uses an electric tuner and says it makes life a lot easier with fretless. I know I wouldn't be without one for any instrument (save pipe organ) now.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/15/2007:  23:33:41

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mwc asked: "In your opinion was it hard to make the switch? What about tuning, do I need an electronic tuner?"

No, it's not hard to switch. My banjos are semi-fretless, meaning they are fretted above the fifth fret. Accurate intonation gets more difficult on a fretless the higher up you go, so if you do a lot of up the neck playing, you might find it a little difficult. But in the first eight fret positions or so, I think you will find the transition much easier than you expect. Once you've gone fretless, you will never want to go back.

I use an Intelli IMT-500, which clamps right on the peghead, and works as well as the three other tuners I have used. It appears to be more rigorous and reliable than the Intellitouch.

Good luck with it, and let us know how it works out for you. Better yet, post a few tunes, when your banjo arrives!

- Don Borchelt



"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."

- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died

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Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/15/2007 23:34:18

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/15/2007:  23:42:25

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I'll second the recommendation on the Intelli 500. Best electronic tuner I ever had -- and the cheapest. UNder 20 bucks - shipped! from an ebay dealer.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/16/2007:  05:00:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

RD uses an electric tuner and says it makes life a lot easier with fretless.

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That's true.

Back in my fretted banjo days, I was actually a bit conceited about not needing a tuner. Just give me an A-440 tuning-fork, and I'd just go from tuning to tuning by just twisting on the pegs. It was partly necessity because of playing at sessions and not wanting to waste time changing tunings while everybody else waited. I got pretty good at it.

Once I got my fretless, I realized that especially while developing the muscle memory for correct intonation, the banjo had to be perfectly in tune at all times. I now use a tuner all of the time (also an Intellitouch).
That way if things sound out of tune, at least I know it's not the banjo!!!



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 04/16/2007 05:02:14

mwc9725e - Posted - 04/16/2007:  06:58:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

RD uses an electric tuner and says it makes life a lot easier with fretless.

---

That's true.

Back in my fretted banjo days, I was actually a bit conceited about not needing a tuner. Just give me an A-440 tuning-fork, and I'd just go from tuning to tuning by just twisting on the pegs. It was partly necessity because of playing at sessions and not wanting to waste time changing tunings while everybody else waited. I got pretty good at it.

Once I got my fretless, I realized that especially while developing the muscle memory for correct intonation, the banjo had to be perfectly in tune at all times. I now use a tuner all of the time (also an Intellitouch).
That way if things sound out of tune, at least I know it's not the banjo!!!



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Thanks for the tips, everyone. When my wife asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I don't think she quite expected me to want yet another banjo. THis one's different, though, being fretless. I really like the way they sound, and from everything I've heard and experienced so far, the guy who's making it ( Charlie Glenn, of Beech Creek Community NC ) is very good at making them and has a lot of integrity. So I figured if I'm ever going to give one a try, now might be a good time to do it.