janolov - Posted - 04/12/2007:  08:57:22

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Some days ago there was a question in the All Other Styles forum about where the name "sawmill tuning" originited from. There were only a few posts and I think this forum is more adequate to question in this case. There may be a lot of competent persons who read this forum but not the All Other Styles.

First, why is it called SAWMILL tuning? This name occurs both for the banjo tuning (gDGCD or aEADE) and for fiddle (GDGD or AEAE). First I thought that that the C note on the second string was specific, but the fiddle tuning doesn't have any C note. Other tunings have been named after special tunes (Cumberland Gap tuning; Sandy River Bell tuning and so on) but is there any tune called "Sawmill" that have named the tuning?

Secondly, how long has the sawmill tuning (or its equivalences) been in use? The old banjo tutos from 1880 and earlier does not mention this tuning (or its equivalent). However, that is not evidence that it didn't exist at that period. When country music was being recorded during the late 1920's the tuning was used by Clarence Ashley and B.F. Shelton for example. Are there any testimonies that sawmill tuning existed before that?



Janolov

tonehead - Posted - 04/12/2007:  10:01:08

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I'll take a stab at this. The connection I make to "sawmill" would be this. I take it that gDGCD was at one time standard tuning for a banjo. I have heard clawhammer playing referred to as "sawmill" style. So perhaps it came form clawhammer style being played in this tuning.



Be significant.

Mumble Peg - Posted - 04/12/2007:  10:04:02

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Found by Googling:

Watson and Clarence Ashley, 1960-1962. Ashley tuned his banjo to gDGCD (5th to 1st), sometimes called "mountain modal" tuning. He called it "sawmill tuning," perhaps because the unfinished sound of the resulting open-string chord sounds like a large circular saw cutting through a log.



"If history teaches us anything it is that history does not teach us anything."

RCCOOK - Posted - 04/12/2007:  15:42:45

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When I sarted paying in the 60's it was know as MOUNTAN MINOR. I believe it came from the old ballads that were sung and played in a minor key that came out of the hills. Sawmill(same as mountain minor) has become popular now days. I think it has been used since banjo were introduce to the mountain folk but probably before that. My wife's Mamaw, Mattie Stamper, sang those old mountain tunes to me...i.e. Man of Constant Sorrow etc......Rod

Even the blind squirrel finds an occasional nut, I found a banjo!!!

banjothumper5 - Posted - 04/12/2007:  18:27:55

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Clarence Ashley used it alot and is the 1st one I think of when I hear sawmill tuning. The name I don`t get either. Mr. Ashley said once he played `lassey (molasses) makin tunes in this tuning. I`d guess he learned the tuning when he was a kid or sometime when they were making molasses. It was usually an event that called for a little gathering and music would have sure likely been played to pass the time cooking down the lasses as it was a slow process that took all day. Course all this still don`t explain the term sawmill!!

Allen

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/12/2007:  19:54:57

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Many tunings have acquired names that are "off-the-cuff" and vary from player to player. The result is that a particular tuning may have more than one name. We have to remember that many if not most of the trad player in the old days did not read music.
Because of this, labels like "gCGCD" or "Double-C" would be largely meaningless to them. The tendency would be to label the tuning by a tune it was used play. Hence, in a given locale where a particular tuning was widely used to play a particular tune the tuning would carry the name of the tune. These days, most (though not all) players use aDADE to play Soldier's Joy, Mississippi Sawyer, and Arkansas Traveler. For the most part I could label aDADE with any one of these names- Soldier's Joy Tuning, Mississippi Sawyer Tuning, or Arkansas Traveler Tuning, and most players would know I was referring to aDADE.

There is probably no way of knowing how or why gDGCD got labelled "sawmill tuning". It could be anything from the person who first used the label heard it from a sawmill worker, or it was first heard at a place called "Sawmill Creek" to any other possibility you could think of.

Janolov is correct: the tuning was not mentioned in any of the old 19th C. tutors. Initially, the intervalic equivalent of gCGBD was the only tuning indicated, and even the gDGBD equivalent does not appear until after 1860. As far as I know, the gDGCD tuning may not have appeared in print before Pete Seeger's manual.

I would tend to disagree with tonehead's theory that gDGCD was once the standard banjo tuning. There is no indication of this anywhere, and moreover, gDGCD is not in my mind versatile enough to be a standard tuning. It tends to be primarilly suited for modal tunes, which even in the OT repertoire are less common than the major tunes. Additionally, some traditions do not use it at all, opting to play their modal tunes out of gDGBD tuning.

That said, we must remember that there was an undocumented black (and proabably white as well) folk tradition that existed concurrently with the minstrel tradition. Though the minstrels are not documented as using the gDGCD tuning, it is probable the black players did, and they were lprobably who the mountaineers got the tuning from. Conway, in her book "African Banjo echoes in Appalachia", theorizes that both down-stroking (clawhammer) and variant tunings trace back to Africa. As such, it is possible that the basis for the "sawmill tuning" (in a 4-string form) may go back that far also. When the banjo became a 5-string instrument (in the 1830's ?) the black banjoists possibly adapted the existing four-string tuning to include the 5th string by tuning the banjo to gCGCD.

Anyone familiar with the research of Daniel Jatta and Ulf Jagfors is aware that the akonting ( a West African instrument with a gourd sound-chamber over which a skin has been stretched, and which features a short drone string played by the thumb) is played with a right-hand technique that is nearly identical to our clawhammer style.

I'd guess the "sawmill tuning" goes back a lot further than any of us suspects.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 04/12/2007 20:00:06

CageyK - Posted - 04/12/2007:  20:53:22

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Fantastic history RD! Thanks much. Fascinating.

You mentioned, "Though the minstrels are not documented as using the gDGCD tuning, it is probable the black players did, and they were lprobably who the mountaineers got the tuning from."

I'm curious why you say this as "probably". Was that from Conway's book you referenced or another source. I'm not challenging you on this...just curious.

I'm getting very interested in learning more about the Afro-Celtic-American influences of the 1800's. Banjo--America's First Fusion Music!

Thanks. Cagey

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Edited by - CageyK on 04/12/2007 21:12:52

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 04/12/2007:  21:02:49

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The liner notes to 'Banjo Legacy- Traditional Music Of West Virginia' (Augusta Heritage Center)lists the tunings used by the relationship from string to string,ie 4th to 3rd,3rd to 2nd, etc. The notes state that most old time banjo players usually tuned to suit their voices. With this in mind, one persons double C might not match another 's. I don't have Pete Seeger's book any more, but I believe he stated that many of the people he learned from knew only one or two tunings, and only a few chords. I recall him speaking of Mountain Minor tuning.He may have given other names for it, he usually did when he learned from multiple sources.Some tunings may have been local or family favorites, and may have only spread further due to recordings and radio broadcasts in the 20th century.Small localized communities were somewhat isolated. My wife, who is 'just a bit' younger than my 56 years remembers the eldest members of her WVa family speaking in the style of the King James Bible.In the days before good roads, cars, factory jobs and a reason to travel, isolated culture changed very slowly. This is a very interesting topic, I hope some people in the know are waiting to enlighten us more.
Paul



"As I see it, every newborn should be issued a banjo." .....Linus

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/12/2007:  22:19:04

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I'm with R. D. on this and I know he has spent a lot of time with those 19th century methods. The only tuning I can remember from any of them was gCGBD.

Sawmill might well have refered to a tune either Tom Ashley or someone else knew that is better known by a different title now. Thre are a lot of guitar tunings that are named after a tune - Like "Vastapol (Savastapol).
For us in the great North East (NYC, Boston etc) the gDGCD (aEADE) banjo tuning was called "mountain minor" and I suspect that name came straight from the Seeger Book (but that is not something I've checked). We also had at least 2 guitar tunings sometimes called "mountain minor" that got a similar open interval by dropping the "B" string to an "A". I favoured DADGAD - and this was about 10 years before anyone on this side of the Atlantic had heard of Martin Carthy. Tom Rush used one of these tunings frequently - most notably on a song called "Poor Man" so some guitarists in the Boston area played a number of songs (Pretty Polly, Wafaring Stranger etc) in what they called "Poor Man's Tuning" - but I have no idea what that exact tuning was or if everyone was really using the same tuning. I do know it had the Major 2nd interval like the banjo tuning.

Doc Watson came to Club 47 in 1963 or 64 and I specifically remember he didn't use the "Mountain Minor" name for the tuning, but don't remember if he called it "Sawmill" or something else.
I veered away from folk for a while and when I came back to it in the early 70s there were at least as many people using "Sawmill" as "Mountain Minor". Since then I think "MM" has pretty much vanished except among us oldsters. Sawmill is a more accurate term since the usual scale is not minor but dorian - and who wants to call anything "Dorian"?



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

brokenstrings - Posted - 04/12/2007:  22:31:29

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"The Picture of Dorian Grey"

In minstrel times, there were only two tunings used: low bass, equivalent to C tuning a fourth down and the most frequently used tuning; and low bass, equivalent to G tuning a fourth down. I imagine the plethora of tunings used in the old-time tradition evolved within that tradition. Probably by trial and error with the discovery that certain tunes lent themselves more readily to a different tuning. Not to forget, black banjo players were also part of that tradition.

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

Emiel - Posted - 04/13/2007:  02:44:49

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I always found the name very logical. If you strum the strings form 5th to first, it sounds exactly like a wood log being sawed through by a motor-driven circular saw. I understood the name the first time I read it.

Emiel.


http://www.nowhereradio.com/emiel
http://www.bluerounders.com

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/13/2007:  03:25:01

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Insteresting observation Emiel
I've never been near any sawmill operation but there is a house being built in my neighbourhood, and I've been around wood house construction in the past. I have the feeling all circular saws make a dissonant chord based on common elements, and that brand does not matter as much as density or thickness of wood in creating the chord. Up close the scream is too loud to hear all the notes, but get back 50 - 100 feet and you can hear the underlying notes. I would assume the size of the blade probably has a lot to do with that chord too.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

janolov - Posted - 04/13/2007:  04:08:54

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I think old sawmills had frame saws or linear saws, not circular saw - at least in Sweden. I was in an old steam sawmill around 1960 it it had no circular saws, only linear frame saws that worked rather slowly.

Janolov

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/13/2007:  05:58:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by CageyK


I'm curious why you say this as "probably". Was that from Conway's book you referenced or another source. I'm not challenging you on this...just curious.

Thanks. Cagey

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"Probably" is from me, because no one knows for sure.

I would really recommend that you pick up Conway's book, and if you can aford them, "America's Instrument- The Banjo in the 19th Century" by Gura and Bollman, and also "The Birth of the Banjo- Joel Walker Sweeney and Early Minstrelsy" by Bob Carlin. Those three books constitute a virtual banjo education. Altogether about a $125 investment, maybe a bit more.

One of the issues is whether Southern whites inherited their banjo playing from the traveling minstrel troupes or from local black musicians.
I don't think there is a single answer. Different regions were likely exposed to the banjo in different ways.

One of Conway's arguments for the introduction of the banjo to whites by blacks is the fact that both black and white folk-players use variant tunings (gDGCD among them) while the minstrels didn't. This is part of a very convincing argument that she puts forth.

Now I would guess than in certain parts of the country, the minstrels did initiate a banjo tradition. Using tunings as evidence, I know of areas where the trad players utilize only gCGBD and gDGBD- precisely the only two tunings that the minstrels employed.

We must also keep in mind that even at this late date nothing is static. In fact, nowadays more than ever, all areas are open to outside influence. At this point, I don't think there are CHers anywhere who are not at least aware of all sorts of variant tunings,and I am sure that gDGCD has infiltrated many areas where it was formerly not used. In addition, I would also bet that in many places where gCGBD formerly held sway, gCGCD has made serious inroads.
It would take a serious conscious effort to maintain the original style and tunings in the face of these influences.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 04/13/2007 06:01:59

chip arnold - Posted - 04/13/2007:  10:15:22

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Janolov said:
I think old sawmills had frame saws or linear saws, not circular saw - at least in Sweden. I was in an old steam sawmill around 1960 it it had no circular saws, only linear frame saws that worked rather slowly.
***************
In the southern mountains there were a lot of early steam and even horse and mule powered sawmills. As far as I know, in the twentieth century, they were all circular saws. Tearing down a few very old buildings, I've seen straight line saw cuts on old lumber. These were either cut on a powered frame saw like Janalov saw or a human powered pit saw. Later on the band mills began to show up but they were usually owned and run by big loggers because they were much more expensive. I worked in the little "peckerwood" (southern for woodpecker) mills for several years in the 70's and by that time they were all deisel or electric powered. The old sawmillers of the time talked about hewing crossties when they were boys and how good it was when so and so got a mill. So at least in this part of the mountains, the earliest mills were circular. If you talk to me today, I'll turn my left ear toward you so I can hear. That 54" 00 (double ought) Frick was on my right.
Banjo content: I was playing banjo back then and although I loved the sound of the mill, I never thought it sounded like a banjo!!

Play with a plan
Chip

godsey - Posted - 04/13/2007:  10:48:35

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i'm listening to a roscoe holcomb mix station on pandora.com, and i just heard tommy jarrell introduce a fiddle-only version of "cluck old hen" by saying, "this is in the old-time tuning of A...what they call the sawmill tuning."

is it possible that banjo players took the term "sawmill" from fiddle players?

tommy's fiddle sounded a lot like a saw. not exactly like a saw, but dissonant and harsh and mournful and droning--like the sawmill banjo tuning we've been discussing. the term makes a lot of sense in illustrating the tuning's sound and feeling.

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Edited by - godsey on 04/13/2007 10:56:55

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/13/2007:  13:10:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by godsey


is it possible that banjo players took the term "sawmill" from fiddle players?

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Quite possible.

The banjo tunings designateds high-bass and low-bass no doubt hark back to labels for fiddle tunings.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

janolov - Posted - 04/13/2007:  15:55:18

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I looked through some of the old books and videos to see what they say about the gDGCD tuning.

1. Pete Seeger, How To Play The 5-String Banjo (1962): he call it Mountain Minor. When introducing the tuning for East Virginia he writes "One minor mode in particular is common in parts of the southern mountains, and it is a particularly charming tuning used for accompanying songs in this mode".

2. Art Rosenbaum, Old-Time Mountain Banjo (1968): When the tuning is introduced for Shady Grove he writes "...the tuning that Pete Seeger has called Mountain Minor, one that works out well for pieces in the dorian mode, one of the commonest of the old modes in the mountains.". Later in the book (Appendix 1) where 23 traditional tunings and the most common chord are descibed he call it "G modal - mountain minor - 'sawmill tuning'".

3. New Lost City Ramblers Song Book (1964): When the song The Coo Coo Bird is presented (and tabs) they say "G-modal tuning, Ashley calls it his 'Sawmill' tuning".

4. Mike Seeger 1994 in the video Old-Time Banjo Styles, taught by Mike Seeger (from Homespun video, now available as DVD) writes in the enclosed booklet "Why so many tunings.........It is my belief that the majority of the 50 or so banjo tunings were developed during the time when both white and black people were playing the banjo in the late 1800s and early 1900s, in order to adapt it to songs and tunes in the white tradition, mostly fiddle and lap dulcimer tunes. And, because of the influence of the banjo, new songs and fiddle tunes were created from banjo ideas. Especially in the mountain areas, where individuality was so important, people seemd to like sustaining, sometimes dissonant, drone strings and irregular phrasing.............In summary, I believe that most banjo tunings were devised in the mountain areas between about 1850 and 1930 by players wishing to have something of their own yet connected to an older tradition. Each tuning conveys to a special sound and feeling due to drones, fingering and harmonic effects that cannot be achieved any other way.".
There were nothing specific said about the sawmill tuning but I think these words were wise and informative about the history and the historic roles of the tunings.

5. I just looked through another DVD by Mike Seeger with Ralph Stanley, and there Ralph Stanley calls the double C tuning "sawmill tuning" (!). I have also recently listened to another Ralph Stanley recording (I think he played Little Birdie or Shout Little Lula) where the clawhammer style was called sawmill style.

I think the terms "Mountain Minor" and "G Modal" is relatively new terms. They were probably introduced during the first folk revival (beginning in the 1950s) and used by more or less educated people. I don't think these terms were used by the mountain people during the first half of the 1900s. The term "sawmill tuning" was probably in use early, perhaps it became common between 1850 - 1900. However, it is still a mystery why it is called sawmill, and what sawmill really means????

Janolov

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/13/2007:  16:51:22

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godsey
That would mean that Jarrell's fiddle version of "sawmill" tuning is AEAE -- I'm almost but not 100% certain on that as my wife the fiddler (and fact checker) isn't home, but I'll ask when she gets in.
Another "fact" I'm not 100% clear on is the lack of banjo sawmill tuning use in Jarrell's overall playing - and that of the Round Peakers in general. Those who played with Jarrell say he would not allow banjo players to used sawmill for "Cluck Old Hen" - perferring the banjo to stay in major tuning and to stay pretty major in the tune -- which is a sort of hedge since RP style banjo tended to be fretless and there were a lot of "tween" notes used - especially on slides.
I think Fred Cockerham may have done a tune or two in Sawmill but he was known for bringing outside styles and tunes into the RP repertoire.




The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/13/2007:  18:14:09

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The expert is home - Jarrell's "Sawmill" is indeed AEAE.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/13/2007:  19:11:46

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What The Woodchuck says about Jarrel's discouragement of the gDGCD tuning has other precedents as well.
When I lived in the Ozarks, the few native players I knew did not use gDGCD. In fact, gDGBD and gCGBD were the only two tunings as I recall. Perhaps I should say intervals, as they were tuned up to handle the keys of A and D respectively.

Though I didn't here a lot of singing there, I know there was a body of modal songs, but as far as the fiddling, modal tunes were less common that east of the Mississippi.

it is also interesting to note that the old minstrel tutors include a number of modal tunes which are handled without the gDGCD tuning.

To further confirm The Woodchuck's previous statement, Leftwich's Round Peak tune book does not include any settings in the gDGCD/aEADE tunings, even though it does include a number of modal tunes.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/13/2007:  19:36:00

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OKAY
Now we might be on to a mystery. Here is a question that is just coming off the top of my head - no research - heck, Research is not my middle name - Research is the name I call my wife when I need to know something. But she does not know anything about banjos so...

Where was modal tuning common?

I can supply the easiest answer. Deep Gap, NC. But did Doc Watson get it from Tom Ashley who was a long time medicine show man and had traveled extensively. Ashley also recorded some songs in the 20s playing modal banjo as his own backup. "Little Sadie, and "Cookoo" are the best known. So I don't know if aEADE was common in the Deep Gap area or if it was imported either by Ashley or someone else.

I'm also pretty sure (as sure as I can be without actually checking anything) that Buell Kazee used modal tuning - at least I've done similar arrangements (The Butcher's Boy for example) using modal tuning. Jean Ritchie played dulcimer not banjo but I believe I remember her mentioning "mountain minor" specifically, and many of her songs would fit right well with that banjo tuning. In fact she also recorded The Butcher's Boy (GREAT version of that song with the "Oh Lord Oh Lordy Me" chorus that sends chills up your spine) at least twice - once with just her own dulcimer and once with Doc Watson providing a beautiful clawhammer background that was probably inspired by Kazee.

So where else? I know it was BIG in Boston and NYC - but I'm really only interested inareas where it was part of a tradition as opposed to the portmanteau styles of us revivalists. If anyone knows of Guitar versions of the tuning that might predate the revival that would be worthwhile information too

In fact this is important enough for its own thread and I'm goign to do that now.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html