5thstring - Posted - 02/04/2007:  12:25:42

I have recently purchased a Deering Sierra banjo. I am primarily trying to teach my self the Scruggs style. I have developed the urge to attempt to teach myself the Clawhammer style. I also recently purchased Ken Perlman's Clawhammer book w/ DVDs. I would like to use my first banjo to learn the Clawhammer style. This banjo is a low end aluminum rim 5 string w/ a resonator. My question is this, everyone I see playing the Clawhammer style is using an open-back banjo, what is the reason for this? Is it OK to use a banjo w/ a resonator to play this style? I would appreciate any and all feedback. I do apologies if this is a silly question, but I really would like to know.
Thanks to all!

"There is only one thing better than the sound of the banjo on a crisp mountain mornin' , and that's the sound of the banjo, 'round a campfire, on a cool mountain evening."

Madgenius - Posted - 02/04/2007:  12:33:21

Well if it helps mate, I play scruggs style on an openback with no fingerpicks and it sounds just fine to me

Danny

"Music is a joy to me, sometimes living in it is the only safe place to be" Brian May

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/04/2007:  12:35:53

"Everyone" does not play clawhammer on an openback. Among those using resonators are Reed Martin, one of the finest players around and Cathy Barton, well-known Missouri player & singer. The legendary Wade Ward played a Gibson RB-11, resonator and all. In your place, I'd use the Sierra for clawhammer. It's a far better banjo and you're used to playing it. The resonator (on either banjo) makes no difference. Only if you decide you want the different sound of an openback should you go that route.

Bill

chip arnold - Posted - 02/04/2007:  12:40:15

There have been several long and interesting threads on this very subject. I don't know how to search for them but someone will come along shortly with a link or two.

The short answer to your question is yes...you can learn on a resonator banjo. Setup and playability are much more important than openback/resonator. Clawhammerers like a higher action, especially if they pick over the 17, 18 fret area. You could use a taller bridge to accomplish this and use a lower one for your finger style practice.

Play with a plan
Chip

chip arnold - Posted - 02/04/2007:  12:44:00

Well Bill I guess you were writing while I was. You're very right about the Deering. 5thstring should use it for both styles. The cheap, aluminum pot banjo will not give the return of the Deering.

Play with a plan
Chip

gailg64 - Posted - 02/04/2007:  14:04:20

Hi banjohangout-ers,
This topic comes up a lot & Chip's right, there have been a great many lengthy discussions on this group, on rec old time & various listserves (whch are probably archived) Basically the bottom line winds up being to play whatever instrument you have, make sure it's set up correctly, & bond with it. Change bridges & string gauges & maybe tailpieces to adapt to downstroke or upstroke styles.

I was once a bit of a nutcase on the topic, having played resonator banjos since the late 60s when I lucked into an inexpensive 20s Paramount conversion. And then about 8 years ago I went back to fngerpicking & had a 28 TB-2 converted. At that time I made up a list of famous old-time banjo players playing res. banjos--living legends from the 70s-90s as well as banjo players on "golden era" recordings--- but then gave up after I realized it was a very high percentage!

A resonator is really only one aspect of a banjo's sound. It doesn't really add much to volume so much as it adds a hollowness & fullness of tone. (and it keeps the danged brackets from bruising your legs!) I personally like that sound for an old-fashioned brushy knock down style, and it works well for old-time picking styles. But quite a few of the banjo playing old-timers still living in the 60s-80s time period during which I was first exposed to the music played resonator banjos & I associate that sound with them.

It depends on the style you find yourself personally attracted to. I'm an "outlier" here in that I never sat down & developed a sophisticated "clawhammer" sound, either the southern Round Peak or northern/Melodic versions. (Probably would have, since I'm in that demographic, but I happened to be scraping a fiddle while all that was going on.)

So, to cut to the chase: , I'd say---find out which sounds "floats your boat' and go for it!
G

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

There have been several long and interesting threads on this very subject. I don't know how to search for them but someone will come along shortly with a link or two.

The short answer to your question is yes...you can learn on a resonator banjo. Setup and playability are much more important than openback/resonator. Clawhammerers like a higher action, especially if they pick over the 17, 18 fret area. You could use a taller bridge to accomplish this and use a lower one for your finger style practice.

Play with a plan
Chip

---

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/04/2007:  14:49:50

It doesn't matter what type instrument you use for learning - just go for the best you got. Which I strongly suspect is the Deering. Aluminium pot instruments tend to be pretty clangy, especially in the early stages of frailing.

Eventually, if you get into clawhammer, you may very well want an openback with higher action and a frailing scoop. Desides being more condusive to the clawhammer sound it would blend in well with jams and/or an old time group. But that is a while off.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Mountain Banjer Girl - Posted - 02/04/2007:  20:18:11

In my opinion, it is totally fine to play clawhammer style on a resonator banjo and bluegrass style on an open back banjo. All a resonator does is project the sound outward. It is not the type of banjo, open back or resonator, that reflects style, it is the technique the person is using who is playing the banjo. I am a clawhammer player who often times uses a resonator banjo.


Pour it on.

FretlessFury - Posted - 02/04/2007:  20:43:31

I agree with the general consensus that it doesn't matter what kind of banjo you play, as long as you like the sound.

I will say, however, that there is one practical advantage of the openback: it's a lot lighter than a resonator banjo. I don't know how those bluegrassers carry those things around!


Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.

chip arnold - Posted - 02/04/2007:  20:56:35

Tom, It's not realy the resonator that gives those banjos (all resonator banjos are not bluegrass banjos) their weight. The resonator weighs very little. On the big heavy banjos it's the flange, tailpiece and especially the tone ring which can weigh several pounds by itself. And yes they can be awful heavy! My old Baldwin weighs in at over 14 lbs. I sure wouldn't want to play it standing up for very long.

Play with a plan
Chip

5thstring - Posted - 02/04/2007:  20:58:25

Thank you to all for the info and advice. I really appreciate it.

"There is only one thing better than the sound of the banjo on a crisp mountain mornin' , and that's the sound of the banjo, 'round a campfire, on a cool mountain evening."

gailg64 - Posted - 02/04/2007:  22:49:45

Several of my friends have gotten rather heavy resonator banjos. It was kind of funny last summer because most of the young folks were running around with lightweight open backs slung over their shoulders while we senior citizens were thinking of putting wheels on our cases. My daughter recently gifted me with very nice openback--I think she was afraid I'd sprain something.
G

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Tom, It's not realy the resonator that gives those banjos (all resonator banjos are not bluegrass banjos) their weight. The resonator weighs very little. On the big heavy banjos it's the flange, tailpiece and especially the tone ring which can weigh several pounds by itself. And yes they can be awful heavy! My old Baldwin weighs in at over 14 lbs. I sure wouldn't want to play it standing up for very long.

Play with a plan
Chip

---

chip arnold - Posted - 02/04/2007:  23:00:53

Hi Gail,
I fixed up a little golf cart thing to carry my heavy banjo, Tish's guitar and a couple of chairs. It's balanced perfectly and I can drag it from one end of Clifftop to the other with ease. I see bass players using these but they're just right for anyone who carries more than one instrument and/or a couple of chairs. I paid $10.00 or so for mine and they can be found used all over the place.

Play with a plan
Chip

bschorfhaar - Posted - 02/04/2007:  23:07:01

next time i go to a festival i'm gonna rent a forklift!

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/05/2007:  00:18:55

My Essex openback weighs in at 8 lbs. 1 oz. [http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Mus...essexcg.html]-- heavy for an openback, but well short of my Mastertone's 11 lbs.+..

Bill

mrussell - Posted - 02/05/2007:  07:16:40

Grandpa Jones used a resonator banjo quite a bit; pretty good clawhammer guy also.

twelvefret - Posted - 02/05/2007:  07:44:53

[quote][Is it OK to use a banjo w/ a resonator to play this style?/quote]

I understand why you asked, but can you imagine some old time player asking such a thing. They were just happy to have something to play much less having something correct.

I heard a Deering Goodtimes used on stage last week. This person was using a "drop thumb' strum that he said he learned from some old time player. I thought it sounded like a banjo. I suppose that is what he was looking for.

I use an open back for three or two finger style using the thumb to play melody. I use finger picks or bare. I move from bridge to fretboard to go between clawhammer sound to BG sound. Everbody that I play with likes what I am doing and thinks I make it sound like a banjo

I like the Whyte Laydie tone ring sound. I really like the lightweightness of the openback.



Twelvefret <><

"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple." Pete Seeger

" I 'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park" from the movie, "Cars"

uncledelphi - Posted - 02/05/2007:  08:26:13

I'm chiming in a little late, but better late than never I guess. I personally prefer to frail on a banjo with a resonator. What I like is the Vega close-fitting resonators, which are not as deep as a Mastertone-style resonator, and do not require a flange. My primary axes all have close-fitting resonators.

Austin Rogers

uncledaveh - Posted - 02/05/2007:  09:16:37

My primary banjo for frailing/clawhammer is a Gibson '34 TB-11 Conversion (resonator banjo) with a Huber flathead tonering. I have often used a Vega Whyte Laydie with a resonator. Use what you have and/or like.

Hot dog!!!

David "Uncle Dave" Holbrook
Rockdale Ridgerunners

"Now good people, we're going to play this next tune with more heterogeneous constapolicy, double flavor and unknown quality than usual."

Emiel - Posted - 02/05/2007:  09:34:55

There are many threads on this subject. This rather long one is the most recent:

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=70303

Emiel


http://www.nowhereradio.com/emiel
http://www.bluerounders.com

vrteach - Posted - 02/05/2007:  09:53:19

FWIW, last month I played a Deering Hartford that had an easily removable resonator--it just clipped and unclipped. It had a wood tone ring and sounded great with or without the resonator. There was no flange at all so when the resonator was off it was just a nice openback.

I expect this is a custom feature.


Erich
-------
http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/

Emiel - Posted - 02/05/2007:  10:09:13

No, it's not a custom feature. The Deering Harford comes standard either with normal resonator/flange or with pop-off resonator. Historically, there are more examples of pop-off (sometimes called pop-on) resonators. In the early 20th century Clifford Essex also made some, in the 1970s IIda. There are more examples.

Emiel


http://www.nowhereradio.com/emiel
http://www.bluerounders.com

Edited by - Emiel on 02/05/2007 10:09:40

spiritwolf7 - Posted - 02/05/2007:  10:22:25

In the less pricy range, the Washburn B-9 also has a removable resonator and can easily be played in either configuration.

SpiritWolf

The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect the rivers to run backwards as that any man who was born a free man should be contented when penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases.

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce'
1830 - 1904

Richard - Posted - 02/06/2007:  05:49:14

i've asked this question as well, as i have a masterclone that currently has the resonator removed. i played it for a fair while before removing it, though, and miss it sometimes ( resonators are great for projection in front of mikes).

i changed for a couple of reasons:
1. the resonator adds a couple of inches to the distance your wrist has to operate in for clawhammer - you have to hold it on a different angle.

2. volume - projection was great, but it was hard to sing over the top of my playing. also hard to get dynamics in quiet settings.

3. tone - always sounded a little harsh.

4. weight !

However, once i get a nice openback with a frailing scoop, i'll probably put the resonator back on because it gives such a different sound.

i really like the two / three finger style of dock boggs, morgan sexton on resonator banjos - really adds to the moody modal sounds.

Richard

"There is nothing whatsoever that does not become easier with acquaintance" - Santideva

see my band UPDATED and IMPROVED SITE ! http://www.geocities.com/bottleneck...atitude.html

uncledaveh - Posted - 02/06/2007:  11:35:07

Erich - In regard to the Deering Hartford with the pop-off resonator and the wood tone ring - Did it have good volume (I know that is a subjective question)? Any other comments you could make about it? I would like to try one of these, but haven't found any around middle Tennessee.

Hot dog!!!

David "Uncle Dave" Holbrook
Rockdale Ridgerunners

"Now good people, we're going to play this next tune with more heterogeneous constapolicy, double flavor and unknown quality than usual."