daypicker - Posted - 11/10/2006:  17:43:42

Checking the authenticity of a verifyer verifyer is easy. Just look for the mark.

Owings1 - Posted - 12/01/2006:  16:55:26

Your right, the mark is important, this also appears to be the right handed model which would give accurate results for either right handed or ambidextrous persons. I set one in the middle of an old Stew-Mac ring, wasn't pretty!

El Dobro - Posted - 12/02/2006:  08:51:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by daypicker

Checking the authenticity of a verifyer verifyer is easy. Just look for the mark.

---

dhergert - Posted - 12/02/2006:  19:54:34

Hmmm, I don't have a verifier to verify with my verifier verifier. It does have a mark on it, but I suspect that unless I find a verified verifier to verify with my verifier verifier, I'll never be able to truly verify my verifier verifier. And of course finding a verified verifier means it has to have verified accurately at one time, which is a verfiably difficult thing to verify.

Does someone here have a verified verifier that I can use to verify my verifier verifier?

Best,

-- Don

"A banjo is a terrible thing to waste."

Edited by - dhergert on 12/02/2006 19:59:06

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/02/2006:  23:11:16

I showed this thread to my father, who turned 101 the other day (true fact, as we ex-lawyers like to say). My dad knew both Hoyt and Clagwell long before they went into business together and was one of their earliest financial supporters. (He ultimately made a small fortune when the company went public, but that's another story.) He tells me that the photo that El Dobro has posted here is not that of a true Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer. Rather, it's a photo of an early prototype, tentatively called the Hoyt-Clagwell Varifyer, which the company hoped would be a versatile verifier that could be used with various venerable five-stringed instruments. According to my father, this product was a spectacular failure because Hoyt was an inveterate punster who could not be stopped from interjecting his often farfetched wordplay into the company's advertising. Not content with the original aim of this product, Hoyt insisted on promoting it as able to detect the impending separation of a banjo rim's plies - a condition he referred to as "incipient veneerial disease." This turned out to be an unfortunate decision because the public, confused by the product's shape and the unprotected bulb at the top, mistakenly believed that it caused the very condition it was supposed to help remedy. On the heels of this marketing disaster came the factory fire that destoyed all of the company's reseach and manufacturing facilities and records. Forced to start again from scratch, Hoyt and Clagwell, with the help of my father and a few other loyal investors, rebuilt their company into the industrial force that generations of Americans later came to revere. (Some of you may be old enough to recall their almost-catchy slogan, "What's Good For Hoyt-Clagwell is Good for General Motors and Come to Think of It Good for America.") In doing so, however, the original Hoyt-Clagwell Varifyer went by the wayside, to be replaced by the effective, albeit more limited Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer that Don and others talk about. By the way, my father also pointed out that the post by dhergert rambling on and on about a so-called "verifier verifier" is completely beside the point because he confuses a genuine Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer with a cheap imitation no-name "verifier" (that's how you can tell those knock-offs, they don't even get the spelling right).

Edited by - arnie fleischer on 12/02/2006 23:19:09

dhergert - Posted - 12/03/2006:  00:10:56

Duly noted...

:)

-- Don

"A banjo is a terrible thing to waste."

Edited by - dhergert on 12/03/2006 00:17:51

BanjoLink - Posted - 12/03/2006:  08:36:56

Arnie:

Now that's funny! I wonder how many of us have suffered from that "incipient veneerial disease"?

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/03/2006:  10:48:24

I neglected to include this in my previous post, for which I apologize. Ethical considerations compel me to disclose that Hoyt and Clagwell family members have asked me to come out of retirement to represent their legal interests in the remnants of their forebears' business. I'm sure this is due to their recognition of and gratitude for my father's longstanding financial support of the company through good times and bad. Although I have decided to decline their request, I have agreed to informally advise them with regard to banjo-related products such as the Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer. With their consent, I can now disclose that they have asked the people at Gibson to refrain from displaying one of the earliest known examples of the Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer in their Nashville showroom under a "Gibson Masterizer" banner. While it's true that under license from Hoyt-Clagwell, Gibson sold a number of early Verifyers using the Gibson name, that agreement expired long ago, and the family believes that Gibson is mischaracterizing an important piece of banjo history by continuing to display the product in this manner.

dhergert - Posted - 12/03/2006:  11:48:45

Yup...

And Gibson is using Hoyt-Clagwell's look and feel in their clone verifiers. I saw a Gibson re-issue verifier at Guitar Center and thought it was the Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer, until I noticed that the hang tag used the generic uncapitalized word "verifier" instead of the Hoyt-Clagwell trademark of "Verifyer".

The problem of course is that the uninitiated won't know the difference between the Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer and the Gibson re-issue verifier unless they know to verify that the mark is there as is the case with the Verifyer. And Gibson is taking advantage of that, too, I have verified with a certain previously-Gibson dealership that the Gibson sales reps are hoping unverified Gibson re-issue verifiers will pass as the Hoyt-Cagwell Verifyer and sell.

The big issue there is that the Gibson re-issue verifier only verifies the recent re-issue flathead tonerings. It will not verifiably verify either pre-war flathead tonerings or pre-war archtop tonerings, nor will it verify the early post-war models. My understanding is that it will also only assist in verification of the pre-war ballbearing tonerings, however there has never been any question about authenticity of those so the Gibson re-issue verifier is a waste of money for them.

The Gibson re-issue verifier is, however, supposed to be able to verify that a ballbearing tonering's 24 ballbearings, springs and washers are authentic, which may be of some interest to some ballbearing owners because there are so many clone ballbearings, springs and washers on the market. However, that is not advertised as the only unique feature of the Gibson re-issue verifier over the Hoyt-Calgwell Verifyer nor is it even discussed in their technical specifications.

If there were a lawsuit about look and feel, I suspect that Gibson's legal department would take advantage of that one unique feature, if in fact it is verifiably true that it exists.

I did, btw, try to verify a Gibson re-issue verifier with my verifier verifier. It did not work, I can verify that.

Best,

-- Don


"A banjo is a terrible thing to waste."

Edited by - dhergert on 12/03/2006 14:10:02

dhergert - Posted - 12/03/2006:  12:35:35

Now John, some things are better left for discussion in more private areas, such as bathroom walls and alleys.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoLink

Arnie:

Now that's funny! I wonder how many of us have suffered from that "incipient veneerial disease"?

---

Edited by - dhergert on 12/03/2006 12:44:57

BanjoLink - Posted - 12/03/2006:  13:14:55

Don:

Excuse me! Did I say "us"! I meant ya'll !!! And I certainly agree that subjects like this are better discussed on bathroom walls. Generally however, the general bathroom going public could care less about the Hoyt-Clagwell Verifyer. I would think it would be very boring to them and it would take some time to transcribe this much information on the wall of a bathroom. It would be hard to condense all of this information down into a "catchy" short phrase that you are more likely to see in a public restroom.

In all fairness, I should mention that I have seen numerous discussions of Gib***'s trade dress lawsuit scribbled on bathroom walls. I will not go into all of the gory details here, but let's just say that there are numerous members of the "bathroon going public" that are outraged over that legal action.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/03/2006:  19:35:36

BanjoLink: One of the Clagwell family members recently told me that while Hoyt coined the phrase "incipient veneerial disease" to describe impending rim ply separation, Clagwell thought it should be referred to as "premature delamination."

El Dobro - Posted - 12/14/2006:  15:37:10

I think Elderly could use a flathead Verifyer for that Granada they have. It surprises me thay they don't have one and are just relying on "tone analysis" instead of a proven method.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

Edited by - El Dobro on 12/14/2006 15:47:55

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/14/2006:  18:30:16

I'm surprized they don't pull it and weigh it , but maybe their Electronic Tone Analysis is the prewar verifier of the twenty first century.

BanjoLink - Posted - 12/14/2006:  20:05:53

Gosh Don, I wasn't going to bring this up, but didn't somone produce a tone analyzer to compliment the Hoyt-Clagwell?

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/14/2006:  22:03:40

Yes, its the Werbin-Stanley Prewar Electronic Tone Analyzer. I think there was a law suit between Hoyt-Clagwell and Werbin-Stanley because Hoyt-Clagwell already had the patent.

Edited by - Haskells RB3 on 12/16/2006 14:00:41

BanjoLink - Posted - 12/14/2006:  23:22:52

Here we go!

arnie fleischer - Posted - 12/15/2006:  21:30:59

Haskells RB3, you are correct. I just did some research and discovered that the lawsuit is still pending. Apparently, an attempt at settlement fell through some time ago. The court recently issued a gag order.......punch lines, anyone?

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/15/2006:  22:42:05

Apparently Gibson is getting involved in the law suit now.

BanjoLink - Posted - 12/15/2006:  23:47:08

Actually Arnie, it was a rare "muff order" that the courts issued. You are actually allowed to say anything, but the person you say it to has to be wearing sound-proof ear muffs. It is very similar to a gag order, but has been tested in court and deemed not to violate a persons first amendment rights.

PyrPups - Posted - 12/16/2006:  10:29:29

But that is only if the lettering on the ear muffs are in script and at a precise angle. The wearer must be able to "Press One" to continue lip reading in English for the Muff Order to be effective.

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/16/2006:  15:46:40

Also those would have to be Prewar Ear muffs and would have to be tested with Elderys Werbin-Stanely Prewar Electronic Tone Analyzer, or is it Ana Liezer.

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 12/16/2006:  15:50:23

Actually, I think I new Ana Liezer in high school.

El Dobro - Posted - 01/01/2007:  02:40:06

Happy New Year from the Hoyt-Clagwell Prewar Gibson Flathead Verifyer Company!

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

dhergert - Posted - 01/01/2007:  13:55:54

A verifiably Happy New Year to you too, Don...

Best,

-- Don

At the end of the day it's good to remember...
It is all "future firewood".

daypicker - Posted - 01/20/2007:  21:05:16

Has anyone else got their 2007 Hoyt-Clagwell pin-up calendar in the mail yet?

dhergert - Posted - 01/20/2007:  22:33:53

I did, but my wife threw it into the trash before I even got to look at it much...

She yelled, "what kind of house do you think this is?".

My 2 boys liked it though.

I was going to retrieve it from the trash, but I'm lucky to sleep on the couch these days after making my last banjo acquisition.



Best,

-- Don

"Did you hear the one about the skunk and the banjo player in the middle of the road?"

El Dobro - Posted - 04/05/2007:  21:33:43

Back by unpopular demand.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

Haskells RB3 - Posted - 04/05/2007:  21:56:27

I heard that Janet Reno is the cover girl on the 2007 Hoyt-Clagwell swimsuit calendar.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/05/2007:  23:13:13

Don - Since my post in the Gibson tone ring thread may have inadvertently led to your reviving this topic, let me reply here to your reply to me there. Of course I know that Hoyt-Clagwell made the one and only Prewar Gibson Flathead Verifyer. But I also have it on good authority that Hoyt-Clagwell supplied Gibson with all of the tone rings used on their prewar flatheads. If you think about it (and why wouldn't you?), that explains why the Hoyt-Clagwell Prewar Gibson Flathead Verifyer is so accurate and reliable: it's basically a self-verifying process. And there's more. The letters of the company name, Hoyt-Clagwell, if rearranged, form the following anagram: "The GCLW Alloy." "GCLW" stands for "Gibson Company Limited Warranty." There you have it, proof positive that Hoyt-Clagwell developed the exclusive alloy used in prewar Gibson flathead banjo tone rings.

El Dobro - Posted - 04/06/2007:  23:50:51

Arnie, that's a common misconception. The rings were not made by Hoyt-Clagwell. The original prewar flatheads were actually made by their crosstown rivals the Voit-Clogwell Company, known for the infamous Clogwell Cast Bronze Toilet. Besides their toilet being very unpopular on cold mornings, the company was also plagued with lawsuits resulting from injuries when the cast lids would unexpectedly fall down, at the most inopportune times, and maim their users in a most frightful way. To keep the company from going under, Voit and Clogwell reworked their product and came up with what they thought would be a portable commode. One day, a nameless engineer at Gibson tripped over their portable product while on a camping expedition and found, with a slight modification here and there, that the commode would make an excellent banjo tonering. That is how the prewar flathead, as we know it, came into being.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

banjobanjobanjo - Posted - 04/07/2007:  00:06:40

My old girlfriend had one that looked just like that. Ran on batteries. She was paying more attention to that then me and finally ended up leaving.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/07/2007:  10:11:10

Don, now that you mention it, I recall reading about the Voit-Clogwell flathead development theory a number of years ago. It was a passing reference in an article about the actor John Voight, whose uncle was a principal of the company. John changed the spelling of the family name when he went to Hollywood to avoid unfavorable associations with the company, which, as you imply, had a less than stellar reputation. I've heard rumors that he gave Steve Martin an early prototype of the Voit-Clogwell flathead tonering, which unfortunately produced an incommodious (so to speak) sound.

Arnie

martyg - Posted - 04/07/2007:  12:12:23

Don I got hold of one of those modified tonerings, but it sounded like crap!

Marty Galyean
San Angelo, Texas.

El Dobro - Posted - 04/07/2007:  19:23:44

The rings did help the company become flush again.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/07/2007:  20:16:06

Quote "My old girlfriend had one that looked just like that. Ran on batteries. She was paying more attention to that then me and finally ended up leaving."

banjobanjobanjo:

I think that was something else!

flatthead - Posted - 04/07/2007:  20:58:54

I thought you were at The Masters.........

Edited by - flatthead on 04/07/2007 20:59:20

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/08/2007:  19:29:51

I was - until Saturday evening, I used my daughter's computer. You know I can't stay away from the Hangout!

Two days working in her yard and one at the tournament is not too bad of a ratio!

El Dobro - Posted - 04/09/2007:  20:59:16

Has anyone ever tried taking one of the Clogwell cast bronze toilets and melt it down into rings? I'm sure that would be better than melting down prewar archtop rings.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

arnie fleischer - Posted - 04/10/2007:  15:48:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by El Dobro

Has anyone ever tried taking one of the Clogwell cast bronze toilets and melt it down into rings? I'm sure that would be better than melting down prewar archtop rings.

Don

---

101dad - Posted - 04/11/2007:  19:28:35

Oliver Wendell Douglas had a Hoyt-Clagwell tractor on Green Acer's the one Hanney sold him.But in reality it was a Ford tractor with the Hoyt-Claggwell name on it.

El Dobro - Posted - 09/27/2007:  21:01:23

I just happened to have the Verifyer next to my terminal while I was checking out the flatheads at Gruhn's site and the bulb went real bright and then blew out. Talk about overload!

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

davepicks5 - Posted - 09/27/2007:  22:19:10

Don

Dem pre war bulbs.......dem don't never lie.........U gotch the REAL DEAL.....just wisht I had me one.....David

ejimb0 - Posted - 09/27/2007:  22:54:05

My ex wife worked for L.D. Heater in Portland Oregon in the 70's. They were owned by "Norlin" who also owned Gibson. Early one morning a truck marked EVERGREEN showed up and quietly off loaded 4 pallets full of these pre war flat-head detecting devices. The driver and the forklift operator were dressed in very odd clothes and sported bizarre haircuts.... see here: Wow!.
The Verifyers were stored in a separate room with a sealed door. Just before the company went bankrupt the truck came back and took them away. The truck had Montana plates
Pow-Wow!

Hey! I'm not kidding about this... My ex-wife was way too stupid to make it all up..

Edited by - ejimb0 on 09/27/2007 23:09:05

baygawker - Posted - 09/27/2007:  23:04:21

Sorry James ... these guys have not been Verifyed. Gotta love the haircut though !

" i have, no name. i werk, fo no man." ... a blind railroad prophet

ejimb0 - Posted - 09/27/2007:  23:13:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by 101dad

Oliver Wendell Douglas had a Hoyt-Clagwell tractor on Green Acer's the one Hanney sold him.But in reality it was a Ford tractor with the Hoyt-Claggwell name on it.

---

El Dobro - Posted - 09/28/2007:  15:36:18

I wonder if I could have the bulb upgraded to an LED.

Don
http://www.myspace.com/eldobro
http://www.pasttimesbluegrassband.com
http://www.myspace.com/pasttimesband

dhergert - Posted - 09/29/2007:  22:33:22

The secret of pre-war tone is out. It's the original pre-war coordinator rod nuts.

Does the Hoyt-Clagwell verifier have a socket for verifying pre-war coordinator rod nuts?

Best,

-- Don
http://mysite.verizon.net/don.hergert


"If you must use your banjo as a snow shovel, do so:
only don't wonder if it sounds dull afterwards."
-- S.S. Stewart catalog, 1896.

phischer - Posted - 09/30/2007:  00:19:49

You ever see those prewar LED's? You know those christmas lights people mounted up in their banjo pots. These may have been the first prewarelectric banjos in fact.

Fischer

"I'd ask my banjo teacher but I am my banjo teacher."